Frieza and Android 17 upgrade (Staff Only)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have to disagree entirely with him. He is following the same fallacy of "Jiren was always Low 2-C and cannot, and has not ever suppressed himself to 3-A level".

He clearly does, or he would have one-shot PRe UI Goku when they fought.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's the same argument discussed ad nauseam above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Serious Question:

Do you guys honestly think that a near-collapsing exhausted Base Goku is Low 2-C? Because he was of serious help in blocking Jiren's "Full-power" energy blast.

That obviously shows that Jiren wasn't nearly as strong as before. Aura or not. If he were as strong as he was against UI that wouldn't have happened.

I was agreeing with At least 3-A but now I don't.

 

[BlackeJan]

What about Base Goku Post Kefla fight? would his base form change since his SSBKKx20 was inputed to be stronger the 1st UI?

Base Goku (ep. 131) should also be At Least' 3-A or High 3-A 'since he was also helping Frieza fighting Jiren

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, he isn't. He is still only 3-A.

His Super Saiyan Blue is a transformation. No backwards scaling is allowed.

 

[PaChi2]

Serious Question:

Do you guys honestly think that a near-collapsing exhausted Base Goku is Low 2-C? Because he was of serious help in blocking Jiren's "Full-power" energy blast.

That obviously shows that Jiren wasn't nearly as strong as before. Aura or not. If he were as strong as he was against UI that wouldn't have happened.

Serious answer? After watching SSBx20 goku push jiren much harder than first UI goku just because he had gone through 2 UIs... and after going through another UI and MUI I wouldnt call base goku being that strong outlierish.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is an outlier. And he has no feats on that level. Super Saiyan Blue x20 Goku being above 1st UI =/= Base Goku being > 1st UI.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's the exact same scenario as Base Freeza being "stronger" than his Golden form from 5 minutes ago that would've gotten destroyed by GoD Toppo if they had a rematch.

 

[PaChi2]

It is an outlier. And he has no feats on that level. Super Saiyan Blue x20 Goku being above 1st UI =/= Base Goku being > 1st UI.

That's arbitrary.

Goku went through UI and MUI after that.

I dont care if its an outlier or not, but its believable since Goku has gone through insane power increasing during the tournament.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not arbitrary, it's being logical. He has no conclusive feats on that level.

 

[PaChi2]

I will repeat myself: I dont care if its an outlier or not. But you cant say its not logical when goku has demonstrated the ability to grow well beyond his previous forms after getting rekt several times. And I'm not going to argue Jiren being Low 2-C in 131, but if he were, there you have a conclusive feat for base goku.

 

[BlackeJan]

No, he isn't. He is still only 3-A.
His Super Saiyan Blue is a transformation. No backwards scaling is allowed.

Alrighty then Base goku (ep. 131) also being High 3-A or At Least 3-A since he was helping Frieza against Jiren?

 

[AKM sama]

Base Goku does not scale to Golden Frieza.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The fact that the final fight was exhausted, wounded Base Goku (Who was flickering in and out of Super Saiyan) + Exhausted Final From Freeza Vs Exhausted Jiren makes me shocked that people want to scale that to the feats involving UI Goku and Peak Condition Jiren.

 

[PaChi2]

To be fair first trigger, second trigger and third trigger Goku were also terribly wounded and exhausted.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I have to agree to Matt and Kep here, this is a clear outlier imo, also the fact that jiren was severely weakened, and i find weakened base goku being Low 2-C, a bit of a stretch.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To be fair first trigger, second trigger and third trigger Goku were also terribly wounded and exhausted.

At least he was in Super Saiyan Blue at minimum and it was specified that he got stronger.

 

[PaChi2]

(Im neutral, btw)

And third trigger's blue got almosy oneshoted by Jiren iirc. And he was down for a couple of minutes to recover stamina. Just like this time, I guess.

 

[Kepekley23]

Already stated and restated my opinion in this whole debacle numerous times, but I'll say that, put into perspective, the whole thing just...falls flat.

Describing both 17 and Freeza here:

Exhibit A:

• Losing rather badly to Anilaza or being comparable to people who lost to him (3-A)

• Getting annihilated by not one, but two Low 2-Cs and being explicitly portrayed as someone who shouldn't scale to them (Below Low 2-C)

• Repeatedly shown comparable to other 3-As (3-A)

Exhibit B:

• Fights a vastly weakened Low 2-C, who could destroy their Transformations before, but is so depowered that their much weaker Base forms can now keep up and overwhelm him (Below Low 2-C)

Logical Conclusions:

1. Due to the Low 2-C being so depowered and weakened, it is far more likely he was brought down to their level, which is both consistent with the dialogue and his foes's previous level of power and the point of the episode

2. His foes got an unexplained, unelaborated upon massive power-up that is far above their other feats.

By Occam's Razor alone, Conclusion 1 is the most logical one, and the one that preserves their feats and what happened in the episode. Conclusion 2 requires the ignorance of their consistent 3-A feats, other decisions we have made on DBS, and a power-up that ignores the fact 17 and Freeza were both tired out by their fights and should be at least a bit weaker, and not stronger. Therefore it's invalid.

That's my final (I hope) take on the situation.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah at most I can only see Post-MUI Base Goku being stronger than or equal to Pre-Jiren SSB Goku. There is no way possible for Post-MUI Base to be stronger than Pre-Jiren UI. Also wasn't it already agreed on a while back that Post-Kefla SSB > Pre-Jiren UI? Why are some people here saying it isn't Low 2-C?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Post-Kefla SSB Kaioken x20 is that.

 

[Peter1129]

@Matt

On Goku's profile Post-Kefla SSB is also in the Low 2-C section. And I'm pretty sure a while back everybody agreed on Post-Kefla SSB being stronger than Pre-Jiren UI and Post-Kefla SSBKKx20 being equal to if not stronger than Post-Jiren UI.

 

[Sera_EX]

Why is this still open? Stop being so argumentative. It's annoying. We reached an agreement. Implement and close this damn thread already. More and more people, non-staff mind you, are just going to keep replying and making things drag out more than they've already been.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Agreed. This has been concluded and implemented anyway.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ye. At this point Matt and Kepe will just keep repeating themselves.

 

[Kepekley23]

Yeah, close this.