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Goku and Vegeta vs Frieza

Mickey1940

Mickey1940

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If Frieza never found Broly and went to Earth, how well would he do against Goku and Vegeta?

SBA

Speed unequal

Goku and Vegeta have access to Kaioken and SSGSSE respectively

who wins?
 
Giving Goku and Vegeta their respective enhancers to Blue is just unfair. Leave it to SSB Goku and Vegeta vs Golden Frieza (The three at DBS Broly) and it may be fair.
 
No, Frieza would body them. What are any of you talking about? Broly was bloodlusted and enraged against Frieza, and Frieza endured him for over an hour straight. Wrath Broly could fight on a similar level to SSB Goku, and SS Broly is 50x that (due to stacking Wrath and SS). Frieza could fight somebody 50x SSB Goku for over an hour, and only lose due to stamina.

Hell, in Dragon Ball a gap of 2x is enough to completely curbstomp an opponent, so it's likely that Frieza is over half of Broly's power.

SS Broly >> Golden Frieza > SSBKKX20 Goku = SSBE Vegeta >>> SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta >/= Wrath Broly

This is further evident by Base Gogeta at least being on par with SSB Goku, and Super Saiyan Gogeta being as strong as SS Broly. The gap between Wrath and SS Broly is clearly 50x.

To compare, GoD Toppo lost to SSBE Vegeta. SSBE Vegeta is canonically equal to KKX20 Goku. SS Broly is at least 2.5x that, assuming Goku didn't grow stronger from his UIS3 and UI limit breaks. It's actually very reasonable for Golden Frieza to be as strong, if not stronger, than GoD Toppo if Goku didn't grow any stronger after UIS2.
 
Anyways, to answer the topic. Frieza would curbstomp SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta but KKX20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta would likely be capable of overwhelming and defeating Frieza, but I don't think they would be capable of killing him. Frieza would definitely beat X20 Goku 1v1, due to Frieza handling SS Broly for over an hour maintaining Golden, whereas Goku's Kaio-Ken strains his body significantly. Frieza and SSBE Vegeta is much closer 1v1, due to the efficiency of SSBE.

SS Broly > Golden Frieza >/= SSBE Vegeta > KKX20 Goku

In terms of matchup in an actual fight.
 
IMO that's more than likely just a durability feat. Goku and Vegeta also withstood SSJ Broly for some minutes. Frieza was only getting his butt kicked and didn't even make Broly struggle, I'll accept he is stronger than Goku and Vegeta but he ain't 20 times stronger than them.

Frieza is also a dirty and good fighter while Broly was just blindly going after him so Frieza could have pulled some tricks to last a while longer, this is just my assumption tho.

Base Gogeta 10 second or so fight against Broly was more impressive than Frieza tbh.
 
IMO that's more than likely just a durability feat.

Frieza was stomped by Toppo in under a minute, when Toppo isn't even half of Broly's power. The novel, which is taken as canon here, even states Broly left when Frieza was unable to fight back. Frieza was knocked out by the much weaker Toppo, but never went unconscious against Broly.

It's clear Frieza is FAR stronger than before.

Goku and Vegeta also withstood SSJ Broly for some minutes.

They only fought SS Broly for a minute in IRL time, and were completely exhausted after escaping.

Frieza was only getting his butt kicked and didn't even make Broly struggle,

Again, the novel is accepted as canon. Let's take a look at some translations.

Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do.

However, being able to take Broly's attacks over and over again for over 30 minutes is nothing short of amazing. As expected, he's not called the Emperor of the universe for nothing.

And thus, Frieza's battle continued on for over an hour. However, his stamina was nearing its ends. On the other hand, Broly continued attacking without losing any power as if his stamina were limitless.

Broly did not step any closer. Could he have felt that Frieza no longer had any power left to resist?

From this, we can tell:

  • Frieza's punches staggered Broly. The closest feat to this is a combined kick by Goku and Vegeta, which they could only do once.
  • Frieza's feat of handling Broly for over half an hour is considered amazing, far from an ordinary feat.
  • Frieza only stopped fighting due to running out of stamina, not due to damage.
  • Broly ceased fighting when he felt Frieza could no longer resist him.
Based on all of this, Frieza is easily several times more powerful than Goku or Vegeta alone.

I'll accept he is stronger than Goku and Vegeta but he ain't 20 times stronger than them.

Why not? At least a few weeks have passed since the Tournament of Power, based on Bra's aging. Vegeta fears Frieza's potential for growth and it's that same potential that Frieza tempted Goku with. Frieza grew infinitely more powerful in just four months of training, and hundreds of times more powerful via mere image training.

It's completely reasonable for Frieza to increase his power drastically in a short span of time, especially considering he was clearly confident in handling Goku and Vegeta (invading Earth for Dragon Balls, treating it all as a game, etc) and wanted to fight and kill Goku himself, demanding Paragus leave Goku to him.

Base Gogeta 10 second or so fight against Broly was more impressive than Frieza tbh.

That's not really relevant here, considering Base Gogeta is stronger than SSB Goku and Broly is capable of adapting extremely fast. For all we know, Base Gogeta was over 20x more powerful than Goku, and Broly simply adapted.

Speaking of Broly's adaptation, Frieza's base form could endure Broly for a few moments, maybe even minutes considering we see it after Goku and Vegeta discussed fusion. Frieza's Golden Transformationalso shocked Broly and blew him away dozens of meters, mid-attack with Frieza having confidence in fighting SS Broly.

It's actually HIGHLY feasible that Frieza was actually as strong, if not stronger, than SS Broly. We don't see them again until over half an hour later, which is plenty of time for Broly to adapt to, and surpass, Frieza. Although, this is obviously headcanon.

Overall, the lowest I could give Frieza, is that he should be several times stronger than SSB Goku and that he has the endurance to withstand someone several times his power for over an hour. Even if I gave him that massive lowball for his power, and highball for his endurance, it would still mean he could defeat KKX20 Goku solo due to the KK strain.
 
I wish @Cyron can get his point across for once without writings down a wall of texts.

Anyway, Freiza likely stomps due to surviving Broly for one hour and Goku and Vegeta running away from Broly after 2 min. Usually the durability of characters scales to their AP, although is shown to be a tank so an argument could be made for that as well.

Freizs 6/10 against blue goku and vegeta. Dunno ab KK and SSBE.
 
ZERO7772 said:
I wish @Cyron can get his point across for once without writings down a wall of texts.
Click to expand...
I prefer to make all of my points as secure as possible, so arguments aren't predictable back and forths with people pointing out obvious things with obvious answers in attempts to argue back. I know that sounds arrogant as hell, but it's from years of experience arguing brick walls...and this is a public forum where brick walls can show up.

Regardless, I'll try to edit down responses for easier digestion in the future.
 
Just throwing my two cents really. I also have been on debate ground for years now but I much prefer the person who can deliver strong point in one line or two cuz needlessly long replies are kinda boring and annoying to read through most of the time.

Anyway, this is your thing in the end I can't tell you it's wrong and its a matter of preference after all.

Sorry for the drail.
 
@Cryo

To be fair, when Frieza was fighting Broly, he didn't fight him beforehand and was at "full health". Goku and Vegeta had their hands full dealing with Broly's previous forms, and were already quite exhausted when Broly turned SSJ

If they started fighting SSJ Broly after eating some Senzu Beans, they would probably last MUCH longer than they did in the movie
 
Mickey1940 said:
@Cryo

To be fair, when Frieza was fighting Broly, he didn't fight him beforehand and was at "full health". Goku and Vegeta had their hands full dealing with Broly's previous forms, and were already quite exhausted when Broly turned SSJ

If they started fighting SSJ Broly after eating some Senzu Beans, they would probably last MUCH longer than they did in the movie
Click to expand...
That still doesn't take away the fact that Frieza fought Broly for an hour Non-Stop and was on par with him for a hot minute. Something Goku and Vegeta couldn't do at all.
 
Even with Toppo, who was > Kaioken x 20 Goku until after couldn't put down Frieza after hitting him with major attacks since he got back up time and time again.

Frieza is able to do what a combined Kamehameha/Galick Gun couldn't, actually bother Broly.
 
True, but it's worth noting they only fought Broly for a short period of time, about 16 minutes total IRL time? Also, SSG Goku was curbstomped by Wrath Broly when Base Frieza could endure SS Broly briefly, although that was likely an outlier.

It's worth noting Vegeta was resting when Goku fought Broly, and the ToP shows they can recover their stamina quickly. So while Goku would have been exhausted, Vegeta should have had plenty of time to rest.

Regardless, due to time dilation and the relatively short time (16 minutes IRL) we can only say they fought Broly for that long.

A good comparison would be SSG Goku vs Wrath Broly. Wrath is comparable to SSB, which is 50x SSG. SSG was curbstomped with ease, whereas Base Frieza endured SS Broly briefly and fought SS Broly in Golden for over an hour, when SS Broly should be 50x Blue.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
True, but it's worth noting they only fought Broly for a short period of time, about 16 minutes total IRL time? Also, SSG Goku was curbstomped by Wrath Broly when Base Frieza could endure SS Broly briefly, although that was likely an outlier.
It's worth noting Vegeta was resting when Goku fought Broly, and the ToP shows they can recover their stamina quickly. So while Goku would have been exhausted, Vegeta should have had plenty of time to rest.

Regardless, due to time dilation and the relatively short time (16 minutes IRL) we can only say they fought Broly for that long.

A good comparison would be SSG Goku vs Wrath Broly. Wrath is comparable to SSB, which is 50x SSG. SSG was curbstomped with ease, whereas Base Frieza endured SS Broly briefly and fought SS Broly in Golden for over an hour, when SS Broly should be 50x Blue.
Click to expand...
True, but in this battle everyone is at full power and Goku and Vegeta have access to far stronger forms

Plus is it possible that Frieza simply has extreme resilience (NOT durability, resilience) compared to his AP? Although he was able to survive against SSJ Broly, we're using the word "survive" for a reason. If I remember correctly, Frieza literally couldn't do anything except get pummeled, to the point where Broly just got bored and decided to fight Whis. Frieza's race is known to be able to survive for extended periods of time while mortally wounded
 
Someone ban DargooFaustHasADHD. If you haven't seen it already he's been posting inappropriate images on random threads

He's gonna delete his post soon, I bet
 
If I remember correctly, Frieza literally couldn't do anything except get pummeled, to the point where Broly just got bored and decided to fight Whis.

This is contradicted by this passage in the novel:

  • Broly did not step any closer. Could he have felt that Frieza no longer had any power left to resist?
When Broly left Frieza behind, it was due to Frieza being incapable of resisting. If Frieza was unable to do anything but be pummeled, Broly would have lost interest in him far sooner.

Also, the only instances of Frieza being pummeled is when he is in his base form, and over 30 minutes into his fight with Broly. However, the novel elaborates on that scene:

  • Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do. However, being able to take Broly's attacks over and over again for over 30 minutes is nothing short of amazing. As expected, he's not called the Emperor of the universe for nothing.
Frieza was actively fighting back and pushing SS Broly harder than SSB Goku and Vegeta combined, over 30 minutes into fighting him. So the only instance of Frieza being ragdolled in the entire story, is when SS Broly ragdolls base Frieza.
 
Mickey1940 said:
What exactly is the novel?
Click to expand...
It's essentially a novel adaptation of the film, which you would get in Japan for buying tickets and watching the movie. It was scanned online by a good samaritan and had many entries translated on Narutoforums. It was considered canon by AKM and other staff members due to its direct connections to the film and its script.

It expands on several minor details, and also explains scaling in the story such as Base Gogeta definitely being stronger than SSB Goku and Gogeta not trying against Broly in Blue, until the very end of the fight. Its most major elaboration is Frieza vs Broly.

@Omegas03

As I argued, Frieza can curbstomp SSB Goku and Vegeta and can defeat KKX20 SSB Goku, but he would have a harder time against SSBE Vegeta. If Frieza fights both alone, it's likely he will be defeated but not killed, due to his endurance.

I think Frieza could edge out and defeat Goku, but he might be too injured to finish SSBE Vegeta. If Vegeta can land a Final Explosion, he would likely finish the fight.
 
hold on, how come Frieza can defeat SSGSS Kaioken x20 Goku, but have a harder time against SSGSSE Vegeta? Aren't they equal?
 
Mickey1940 said:
hold on, how come Frieza can defeat SSGSS Kaioken x20 Goku, but have a harder time against SSGSSE Vegeta? Aren't they equal?
Click to expand...
Vegeta could use SSBE even after wasting most of his energy on Final Explosion, almost immediately afterwards. Goku struggles to maintain the Kaio-Ken, even after having been given energy by Frieza and magically recovering as he fought Caulifa and Kale. This is to the extent that he went from stomping Kefla to being one-shot due to the stamina strain.

To add further, Kaio-Ken has always been immensely straining. In DBS, Goku only uses X20 Blue in bursts of seconds. Frieza, who can endure Broly for over an hour, should have absolutely zero issue outpacing Goku. It would basically be Namek, but with the roles reversed.

Vegeta can seemingly maintain SSBE with much greater ease, and therefore has far greater stamina than SSBKK Goku. That means it will take much longer for Frieza to gain the stamina edge against Vegeta, giving Vegeta a much better chance of winning.
 
The Broly thing isn't really valid considering that the novel explicitly say Broly stopped when Freezer stopped moving, he clearly wasn't going for the kill.
 
Dragomer said:
The Broly thing isn't really valid considering that the novel explicitly say Broly stopped when Freezer stopped moving, he clearly wasn't going for the kill.
Click to expand...
Yeah, nah. Wrath Broly beat SSG Goku to the point of barely moving. Lack of killing intent doesn't equate to not going all out. If SS Broly could put Frieza down, he would have put him down easily like he did to Goku.
 
Based on Golden Frieza's performance against an adapting SSJ Broly for a straight hour I would say Frieza should be well over the casual SSJBs and pushing to be around SSJBE - SSJBKK tier.

Also Broly was 100% in full killing intent. Broly wanted to make sure all and any possible threats at the time were neutralized and would not stop until they were either dead or no longer a threat. Whis was in Broly's eyes a greater threat than Frieza based on Whis just standing there being a possible opponent that could harm him. Also Paragus stated that with Broly out of control he was going to kill everyone.
 
Broly wasn't trying to kill as the novel says he stopped beating Frieza when he couldn't fight back any more

But he did beat them all the same though, whatever Frieza took was way more impressive then 2 Post TOP SSJBs. And seeing how Goku says fusion is the only way to win, Frieza is most likely above evolution blue and kaioken x 20 as well. This should be a surprised based on how massive his potential is and how the movie talks about how much of a threat he is
 
It was stated the Broly movie took place very shortly after the ToP. How much more could Frieza have improved? Compared to Goku and Vegeta's gains in comparison as well?

I think the main issue here is that Frieza tanking Broly for an hour should be taken as an outlier due to plot. They needed it to happen to account for the botched fusion dance Goku and Vegeta did, twice.

If you take it as just an insane durability feat for Frieza, then it basically means that Frieza grew massively in power in a very short period of time and Goku and Vegeta got practically no gains after the ToP.

Fieza seemed to be in Goku and Vegeta's realm of power prior to the ToP. But we see both fo them break their limits and grow massively in power. Then you have Vegeta getting a new transformation that makes him 20X stronger than before in SSBE. Plus any additional power he may have gotten from fighting afterwards in the ToP, plus more training post-ToP. This would mean Frieza would have to have made his golden form atleast 20+ times stronger than it was during the ToP. In what? A few days or weeks after the ToP? It feels like an outlier to me.
 
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