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Goku vs. Broly
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
- Start date
- Status
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I mean there's very little evidence for either side. I guess one could argue that MUI Goku's above Broly since Goku said Broly's strongest form might be above Beerus, whereas in that one magazine article Beerus himself says 3rd UIO might be above him. But then again Beerus never says this in the anime itself, one of the promos for DBS Broly states Goku's "close to god of destruction" and of course Goku has never felt Beerus's full power.
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Whis stated that the suppressed Jiren who repelled Goku's genki dama had power on the level of a God of Destruction if not even beyond that. He also stated that he doesn't know much about the other universes and didn't even conclusively speak on Belmod's power relative to Beerus which implies that he simply doesn't know. The only other God of Destruction Whis could reasonably have been comparing him to is Champa and even that's a stretch and in any case, Champa and Beerus are, at least, very close in power. That leaves Goku being much stronger than the promotional material suggests so disregarding said material doesn't help Broly's case.
I gave my scaling chains and reasoning in my first post in this thread, it yields MUI Goku being one degree greater than Broly at Full Power. I still maintain that Broly does not have the AP advantage.
I gave my scaling chains and reasoning in my first post in this thread, it yields MUI Goku being one degree greater than Broly at Full Power. I still maintain that Broly does not have the AP advantage.
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I doubt whis would be referring to supressed Jiren's power instead of his full power. This is Whis we're talking about here, not krillin.
Not to mention Beerus could also have power thats above a GoD's, we still dont know his strength compared to the others yet, as he hasn't demonstrated his full power even once in the series.
Not to mention Beerus could also have power thats above a GoD's, we still dont know his strength compared to the others yet, as he hasn't demonstrated his full power even once in the series.
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Whis has never, at any point, been shown reading a character's full power from their suppressed power.
Given that Whis's only clear benchmark for the power of a God of Destruction is Beerus and his brother Champa, in this context stating "Beerus could also have power thats above a GoD's" is essentially saying "Beerus could also have power above Beerus". Given that Whis has been training Beerus for millions of years, it's safe to say that he should know his full power and there's nothing indicating he was making the comparison to a suppressed GoD anyway.
Given that Whis's only clear benchmark for the power of a God of Destruction is Beerus and his brother Champa, in this context stating "Beerus could also have power thats above a GoD's" is essentially saying "Beerus could also have power above Beerus". Given that Whis has been training Beerus for millions of years, it's safe to say that he should know his full power and there's nothing indicating he was making the comparison to a suppressed GoD anyway.
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The rumor is that Jiren is stronger than his own god of destruction, which Whis said appears be true. We don't know how Belmod compares to Beerus, outside of Whis saying Belmod is stronger than Beerus, though Beerus said that this is only in arm wrestling which Whis never denies.
Also right before Whis makes this statement he says that Jiren is far from full power. Even the Universe 1 Kai was able to tell that Jiren has a far higher power since he was only controlling the SSBKKx20 Spirit Bomb with his mere glare.
From these context clues, it's much more likely that Whis simply saw how ridiculously strong Jiren was even while putting in a miniscule fraction of his power and concluded that at full power he'd have to be this supposed mortal. Rather than even this super duper suppressed Jiren already being equal or above GoD. Especially him already being equal to or above Beerus.
Also after 2nd UIO was unlocked, SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta were able to put up a good fight against a Jiren who was less suppressed than back when that statement was made. So this would mean that Tournament of Power SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta are equal to or above Beerus, which narratively makes little sense.
That idea is also directly contradicted by Goku thinking that FPSSJ Broly merely might be above Beerus, that magazine article where Beerus only starts to think Goku might've surpassed him at 3rd UIO, and the DBS Broly promo saying that Goku is close to a GoD.
Also right before Whis makes this statement he says that Jiren is far from full power. Even the Universe 1 Kai was able to tell that Jiren has a far higher power since he was only controlling the SSBKKx20 Spirit Bomb with his mere glare.
From these context clues, it's much more likely that Whis simply saw how ridiculously strong Jiren was even while putting in a miniscule fraction of his power and concluded that at full power he'd have to be this supposed mortal. Rather than even this super duper suppressed Jiren already being equal or above GoD. Especially him already being equal to or above Beerus.
Also after 2nd UIO was unlocked, SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta were able to put up a good fight against a Jiren who was less suppressed than back when that statement was made. So this would mean that Tournament of Power SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta are equal to or above Beerus, which narratively makes little sense.
That idea is also directly contradicted by Goku thinking that FPSSJ Broly merely might be above Beerus, that magazine article where Beerus only starts to think Goku might've surpassed him at 3rd UIO, and the DBS Broly promo saying that Goku is close to a GoD.
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Broly forced Post T.O.P Gogeta to use SSB, and even then Gogeta had a hard time putting him down. If Kefla who in base was weaker than SSB Goku could rival Omen as a SSJ2, then Gogeta who in base is stronger than SSB Goku and can turn SSB would stomp MUI Goku TOP. Broly and Beerus are in the same tier (just another Beerus retcon) and they are somewhat a portion of SSB Gogetas power. Broly stomps. Its not even logical to assume Beerus is only Omen 3 level at this point, especially since Kefla rivalled Omen despite being a far weaker fusion.
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Goku FRA
The writers will most likely never be consistent regarding the power that UIO and UI display. First usage UIO Goku surpassed Black Saga Vegito Blue and Astral Zamasu, yet SS2 Kefla was relative to second usage UIO Goku?
The writers can't even keep the strength of the divine forms consistent throughout the narrative.
The writers can't even keep the strength of the divine forms consistent throughout the narrative.
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Jiren was getting whooped pretty hard before he broke his limits. And still I'm not sure how this proves the gap between 1st/2nd UIO and MUI, to which there really is no confirmed multiplier or gap. We just know that it's much stronger.
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I sincerely doubt this. Jiren, while enraged, attacked Universe 7 in the stands in an attempt to prove a point; however, he hasn't ever been interested in dishonorable victory. He clearly has a set of ethics with regard to this sort of thing: he criticized Vegeta on the basis that his motivations for fighting were impure and that this was reflected in their battle, he cared enough to interrogate Goku's motivations in their second fight, and he was even hesitant to knock Goku out of the arena when MUI's time was up despite being able to easily do so. Hell, if Belmod hadn't ordered him to, he might've simply waited for Goku to recover to a point where they could resume their fight.JackJoyce said:
SBA dictates that Jiren would never do that in a battle here; nevertheless it suggests that in an in-character battle, he wouldn't go for something like planet busting as a win condition; this isn't Freeza we're talking about. At the very least, there's insufficient evidence to suggest that Jiren would do that but I'd honestly argue that it's a nigh-unfounded assumption.
In any case, Jiren is only relevant here as part of the foundation for scaling MUI Goku vs Broly. In-character dynamics in a fight between Jiren and Broly are unrelated.
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Considering broly is all but stated to be stronger than mui in the movie broly fra
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@Paul Frank
[citation needed]
@Ryukama
Whis and the U1 Supreme Kai weren't having a conversation with each other, they were giving their individual observations.
On top of that, while the U1 Kai states that he senses a far higher power from him, he doesn't specify what he is comparing said power to, there isn't that much context evident in the statement: he could've been comparing him to Goku or to the spirit bomb itself. Immediately prior to stating that he senses a fair higher power in Jiren, he states that neither of them could've attained their level of power through normal training especially Jire which implies that the comparison was to Goku.
He could've been recognizing that Jiren wasn't utilizing all of the power he had available in his current suppressed state. Any character who can sense god ki can recognize Goku's level of power immediately upon transformation into SSB; nevertheless, he can fire attacks weak enough for Krilli to survive them. And Jiren wasn't even firing his own attack, simply repelling Goku's.
Either way, this doesn't imply that Whis was referencing a level of power from Jiren that he hasn't seen yet.
Post-UI2 SSBE Vegeta and SSB KKx20 Goku with the help of Android 17 did put up a better fight against a less suppressed Jiren than SSB Goku did at the beginning of the ToP...but that's just doing better than a 3-A and they neither fatigued him nor did damage. Android 17 managed to catch Jiren by surprise and tear his clothes, earlier in SSB when Vegeta got some hits in on Jiren, he himself recognized that Jiren was using less power than when he fought Goku before that. SSB Vegeta at full power with a fully charged attack did no damage. The minimum for fighting somewhat on par with Jiren was UIO and no significant damage was done without MUI until the very very end of the ToP against a Jiren who was absurdly fatigued specifically because he got wrecked by MUI.
As an aside, there isn't actually much evidence that SSBE and SSBKKx20 are even close to UIO2. In fact, it's possible that while being vastly superior to earlier non-UI forms, ToP SSBKKx20 and SSBE are still below UIO1. There are also additional factors at play when considering a 2-3 on 1 vs a 1 on 1 fight like surprise attacks (that still only did chip damage at best).
As I've stated earlier, disregarding promotional material in favor of in-series statements and scaling leads to Goku being stronger not weaker. Goku doesn't know Beerus's full power, Whis does so his statements on the matter are less reliable. In addition, Whis definitively states that the suppressed Jiren is on the level of a god of destruction with his only real measuring stick being Beerus so Whis's statements carry more weight on two counts there so SSBE or SSBKKx20 being on the level of Beerus isn't near definitive enough to constitute a serious contradiction.
[citation needed]
@Ryukama
Whis and the U1 Supreme Kai weren't having a conversation with each other, they were giving their individual observations.
On top of that, while the U1 Kai states that he senses a far higher power from him, he doesn't specify what he is comparing said power to, there isn't that much context evident in the statement: he could've been comparing him to Goku or to the spirit bomb itself. Immediately prior to stating that he senses a fair higher power in Jiren, he states that neither of them could've attained their level of power through normal training especially Jire which implies that the comparison was to Goku.
He could've been recognizing that Jiren wasn't utilizing all of the power he had available in his current suppressed state. Any character who can sense god ki can recognize Goku's level of power immediately upon transformation into SSB; nevertheless, he can fire attacks weak enough for Krilli to survive them. And Jiren wasn't even firing his own attack, simply repelling Goku's.
Either way, this doesn't imply that Whis was referencing a level of power from Jiren that he hasn't seen yet.
Post-UI2 SSBE Vegeta and SSB KKx20 Goku with the help of Android 17 did put up a better fight against a less suppressed Jiren than SSB Goku did at the beginning of the ToP...but that's just doing better than a 3-A and they neither fatigued him nor did damage. Android 17 managed to catch Jiren by surprise and tear his clothes, earlier in SSB when Vegeta got some hits in on Jiren, he himself recognized that Jiren was using less power than when he fought Goku before that. SSB Vegeta at full power with a fully charged attack did no damage. The minimum for fighting somewhat on par with Jiren was UIO and no significant damage was done without MUI until the very very end of the ToP against a Jiren who was absurdly fatigued specifically because he got wrecked by MUI.
As an aside, there isn't actually much evidence that SSBE and SSBKKx20 are even close to UIO2. In fact, it's possible that while being vastly superior to earlier non-UI forms, ToP SSBKKx20 and SSBE are still below UIO1. There are also additional factors at play when considering a 2-3 on 1 vs a 1 on 1 fight like surprise attacks (that still only did chip damage at best).
As I've stated earlier, disregarding promotional material in favor of in-series statements and scaling leads to Goku being stronger not weaker. Goku doesn't know Beerus's full power, Whis does so his statements on the matter are less reliable. In addition, Whis definitively states that the suppressed Jiren is on the level of a god of destruction with his only real measuring stick being Beerus so Whis's statements carry more weight on two counts there so SSBE or SSBKKx20 being on the level of Beerus isn't near definitive enough to constitute a serious contradiction.
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There is much more evidence for MUI being superior to Broly than the other way around. With all due respect, there has been a lot of stating that 'Broly has the AP+speed advantage' without much, if any, reasoning given.
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I've missed a lot and I haven't read much of the thread. Is this UI during the TOP?
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Peak MUI during ToP
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,389
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Goku FRA
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got already Grace ends our yesterday?
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If you mean to say that the grace ended yesterday, it's bad form to try and enforce a grace period that wasn't declared especially in a thread with over 100 comments where the vote count was ambiguous.
The count should be in OP and the names of the users who voted for each character should also be listed in parentheses next to the names of said characters, that way it's easier to confirm that the count is correct and users can easily look at the OP to see if they're listed as having voted for the character they intended to.
The count should be in OP and the names of the users who voted for each character should also be listed in parentheses next to the names of said characters, that way it's easier to confirm that the count is correct and users can easily look at the OP to see if they're listed as having voted for the character they intended to.
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1. Universe 1 Kai's statement is just supplementary evidence on the fact that everyone can obviously tell that Jiren isn't putting his full power.
2. Again, Whis acknowledges that Jiren is far from full power.
3. If Whis knows that Jiren is far from full power, which he does, and he even thinks this super duper suppressed power is at least GoD level than why would he say that Jiren "perhaps even surpasses" a GoD? If Jiren putting little to no effort in his already GoD level, than Jiren undoubtedly surpassing a GoD.
4. Whis is just confirming the previous rumor of Jiren being above Belmod as true. He never once compares Jiren to Beerus in anyway.
5. Jiren was explicitly stated to have "finally been showing showing a hint of his true power" when fighting SSB and SSBE Vegeta. And this was after that Whis statement. So that means ToP SSB and SSBE Vegeta can now fight somewhat on par with a person who's above Beerus according to you. Narratively this really makes little sense.
Your interpretation of Whis's statement also has to assume that Goku just vastly overestimates Beerus's power for some reason, that he surpassed him a while ago just in just SSB, that Vegeta has also surpassed Beerus without this ever being mentioned and that 2 official pieces of promo material are also greatly overestimating Beerus for some reason. Mine is just going off the simple fact that Whis knows Jiren's holding back greatly, so he believes that Jiren would have to be this supposed mortal.
2. Again, Whis acknowledges that Jiren is far from full power.
3. If Whis knows that Jiren is far from full power, which he does, and he even thinks this super duper suppressed power is at least GoD level than why would he say that Jiren "perhaps even surpasses" a GoD? If Jiren putting little to no effort in his already GoD level, than Jiren undoubtedly surpassing a GoD.
4. Whis is just confirming the previous rumor of Jiren being above Belmod as true. He never once compares Jiren to Beerus in anyway.
5. Jiren was explicitly stated to have "finally been showing showing a hint of his true power" when fighting SSB and SSBE Vegeta. And this was after that Whis statement. So that means ToP SSB and SSBE Vegeta can now fight somewhat on par with a person who's above Beerus according to you. Narratively this really makes little sense.
Your interpretation of Whis's statement also has to assume that Goku just vastly overestimates Beerus's power for some reason, that he surpassed him a while ago just in just SSB, that Vegeta has also surpassed Beerus without this ever being mentioned and that 2 official pieces of promo material are also greatly overestimating Beerus for some reason. Mine is just going off the simple fact that Whis knows Jiren's holding back greatly, so he believes that Jiren would have to be this supposed mortal.
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getting going more arguement shit this Thread.
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yeah that got Screw Broken Rules their Thread!
why do did this Fanbase both Goku and Broly?
why do Resets Grace begins after already Grace ends.
even those it's people voted pick them.
why do did this Fanbase both Goku and Broly?
why do Resets Grace begins after already Grace ends.
even those it's people voted pick them.
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Okay. People are all of a sudden taking Goku's statement as literal when it's pretty much inconsistent in comparison to the novel, magazines, and several other sources that imply SSJ Gogeta and Broly were the Mightiest Warriors to be seen at that point and time.
Not to mention if Goku is close to UIO 3rd ( which is consistently implied) , the Boost of the Fusion Multiplier AND adding Super Saiyan will basically make it rather obvious Gogeta is essentially closing in on LB Jren, if not surpassed already.
Not to mention if Goku is close to UIO 3rd ( which is consistently implied) , the Boost of the Fusion Multiplier AND adding Super Saiyan will basically make it rather obvious Gogeta is essentially closing in on LB Jren, if not surpassed already.
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@Seed couldn't have said it better myself.
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