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Goten and Trunks gets out of Baseline

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Vizer04 said:
We know that Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) is stronger than his previous Super Saiyan form. By this logic, Goten and Trunks' base forms should also surpass their previous Super Saiyan forms.
Click to expand...
By which logic exactly?

There is no logic that backscales a fused being's power back to the fusees. Even if the fusees power grows by a fraction, the fusion multiplier is big enough to inflate that to enormous levels.

Your conclusion and premise are not related to each other.
 
AKM sama said:
By which logic exactly?

There is no logic that backscales a fused being's power back to the fusees. Even if the fusees power grows by a fraction, the fusion multiplier is big enough to inflate that to enormous levels.

Your conclusion and premise are not related to each other.
Click to expand...
Do we have an accepted fusion multiplier?
 
AKM sama said:
By which logic exactly?

There is no logic that backscales a fused being's power back to the fusees. Even if the fusees power grows by a fraction, the fusion multiplier is big enough to inflate that to enormous levels.

Your conclusion and premise are not related to each other.
Click to expand...
What so you mean the fusion boost changes everytime they do it? Clearly not, that's dumb. Since both goten and trunks are equal in pl when they fuse, gotenks increasing his power by a certain amount should also apply to goten and trunks.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
What so you mean the fusion boost changes everytime they do it? Clearly not, that's dumb. Since both goten and trunks are equal in pl when they fuse, gotenks increasing his power by a certain amount should also apply to goten and trunks.
Click to expand...
Well, if goten turned super Saipan 3, goten and trunks’ power doesn’t rise by 8 times. Of course, unless you have evidence of it
 
AKM sama said:
By which logic exactly?

There is no logic that backscales a fused being's power back to the fusees. Even if the fusees power grows by a fraction, the fusion multiplier is big enough to inflate that to enormous levels.

Your conclusion and premise are not related to each other.
Click to expand...
Unless you want to say that the boost Gotenks gets changes each times he fuses, then it doesn't matter how strong is Gotenks compared to Goten or Trunks.

For example: suppose you have Goten and Trunks with a Power of 1 for example. With SSJ, it becomes 50

As we don't know how strong is Base Gotenks compared to Base Goten/Trunks, his power would be X. SSJ Gotenks would be 50 * X

As we know, Base Gotenks Post RoSAT surpassed his previous SSJ state, meaning his Base form would scale to 50 * X as well

Now as the difference between Base Goten and Trunks to Base Gotenks should remain the same (and if you say otherwise, then you need to prove it and back up your claims), we can deduce that the power of Base Goten and Trunks would be 50, which is the same as their previous SSJ state
 
While I can agree with Goten and Trunks getting stronger, I'm iffy about them getting that much stronger. But Fusion does not have an accepted multiplier aside from being astronomically stronger than the sum of the individual's power levels. And the tier jumping may be all over the place; possible for 2 3-A characters to fuse into a Low 2-C character much later on. So we really shouldn't assume the growth of individuals is the exact same as the growth of the Fusion form.
 
Vizer04 said:
Do we have an accepted fusion multiplier?
Click to expand...
No.

FluffyCreatureZ said:
What so you mean the fusion boost changes everytime they do it? Clearly not, that's dumb. Since both goten and trunks are equal in pl when they fuse, gotenks increasing his power by a certain amount should also apply to goten and trunks.
Click to expand...
No, I meant that the fusion boost is exponential. In an exponential relation, even a little increase in the original value has a great impact on the final value. So even if both Goten and Trunks grew stronger by a little amount, it would mean a massive boost for Gotenks. Similarly, an increase in Gotenks' power (in case he grows stronger by a certain amount) and the increase in Goten's and Trunks' individual power would also be far apart (far lower in the case of latter).

Since a fixed multiplier does not exist, we cannot just assume a linear relation like this.
 
AKM sama said:
No.


No, I meant that the fusion boost is exponential. In an exponential relation, even a little increase in the original value has a great impact on the final value. So even if both Goten and Trunks grew stronger by a little amount, it would mean a massive boost for Gotenks. Similarly, an increase in Gotenks' power (in case he grows stronger by a certain amount) and the increase in Goten's and Trunks' individual power would also be far apart (far lower in the case of latter).

Since a fixed multiplier does not exist, we cannot just assume a linear relation like this.
Click to expand...
Then why are you assuming it's a exponential relation? I don't recall fusion ever being like that. It's a multiplier not an exponent.
 
AKM sama said:
No, I meant that the fusion boost is exponential. In an exponential relation, even a little increase in the original value has a great impact on the final value. So even if both Goten and Trunks grew stronger by a little amount, it would mean a massive boost for Gotenks. Similarly, an increase in Gotenks' power (in case he grows stronger by a certain amount) and the increase in Goten's and Trunks' individual power would also be far apart (far lower in the case of latter).

Since a fixed multiplier does not exist, we cannot just assume a linear relation like this.
Click to expand...
OOOOH that makes sense. Yeah if you think about it exponentially I guess that'd make sense. But that'd just mean that they got stronger by an unquantifiable/unknown amount?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I don't recall fusion ever being like that. It's a multiplier not an exponent.
Click to expand...
It's a power boost. It's never stated to be a multiplier. Boosts can be fixed additions, multipliers or exponential. There is no need to assume either one. The point is to not assume anything and stick with a safer lower end due to lack of knowledge and evidence.
 
AKM sama said:
No.


No, I meant that the fusion boost is exponential. In an exponential relation, even a little increase in the original value has a great impact on the final value. So even if both Goten and Trunks grew stronger by a little amount, it would mean a massive boost for Gotenks. Similarly, the difference in Gotenks' power (in case he grows stronger) and the difference in Goten's and Trunks' individual power would also be far apart.

Since a fixed multiplier does not exist, we cannot just assume a linear relation like this.
Click to expand...
Have you got a proof from canon that the boost changes everytime that happens? Especially since the only times when the multiplier does change, is when Goku or Vegeta gets a new form, such as the different between Buu Saga Vegito and Black Saga Vegito
 
AKM sama said:
It's a power boost. It's never stated to be a multiplier. Boosts can be fixed additions, multipliers or exponential. There is no need to assume either one. The point is to not assume anything and stick with a safer lower end due to lack of knowledge and evidence.
Click to expand...
But here you assume it's exponential despite you showing nothing to back up your claim. Also seen that you didn't even attempt to refute what I said earlier and chose to ignore it and hope we'll forget about it
 
AKM sama said:
It's a power boost. It's never stated to be a multiplier. Boosts can be fixed additions, multipliers or exponential. There is no need to assume either one. The point is to not assume anything and stick with a safer lower end due to lack of knowledge and evidence.
Click to expand...
Actually, fusion is stated to be a A + B multiplied tens of times, this is a multiplier. Also, the fusion boost should not change each time they fuse, so why would goten and trunks not grow the same amount as gotenks does?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Actually, fusion is stated to be a A + B multiplied tens of times, this is a multiplier. Also, the fusion boost should not change each time they fuse, so why would goten and trunks not grow the same amount as gotenks does?
Click to expand...
The only reason we do see changes it's because the fusees gets a new form to increase their power further from base, as the fusion formula is based on the total power of the fusees (In Gotenks' case, SSJ Goten and Trunks)
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I'm not saying that this is the correct multiplier, I'm saying it's stated to be a multiplier not an exponent. So OP's logic should be fine.
Click to expand...
If it's not correct, then we just discard the statement. And what Vados exactly said was that the fusion's power is more than the sum of their parts. And their power increases tens of times. This is really downplaying the potara fusion and not at all goes with what is portrayed.

In DBZ it was portrayed as an insane increase which made Gotenks alone be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

In DBS it was portrayed as too weak which made SSB Vegito only a bit stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta.

We treat fusion as an inconsistent boost and that's all. This backscaling logic does not work in such cases.
 
AKM sama said:
In DBS it was portrayed as too weak which made SSB Vegito only a bit stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta.
Click to expand...
No it wasn't portrayed as too weak and we already have been through that. And if you truly believe SSB Vegito = SSB Goku/Vegeta, then I'm sorry for you

And you still have showed nothing, nor addressed any of the argument with stuff from canon to support your claims
 
AKM sama said:
If it's not correct, then we just discard the statement. And what Vados exactly said was that the fusion's power is more than the sum of their parts. And their power increases tens of times. This is really downplaying the potara fusion and not at all goes with what is portrayed.

In DBZ it was portrayed as an insane increase which made Gotenks alone be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

In DBS it was portrayed as too weak which made SSB Vegito only a bit stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta.

We treat fusion as an inconsistent boost and that's all. This backscaling logic does not work in such cases.
Click to expand...
The only reason fusion is inconsistent is because it varies depending on the users that are fusing, it should not be inconsistent for goten and trunks. The A x B x 10 statement confirms that fusion is a multiplier, throwing the entire statement away is wrong. Also wtf SSB vegito only slightly stronger than SSB Goku??????
Mr.Cinos15 said:
Isn't that for potara?
Click to expand...
potara = dance, same power boost.
 
AKM sama said:
In DBZ it was portrayed as an insane increase which made Gotenks alone be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

In DBS it was portrayed as too weak which made SSB Vegito only a bit stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta.
Click to expand...
Both examples are terrible.

1)Vegito only "seemed" so weak because Zamasu was rapidly catching up via Black's Zenkai. He already got those boosts when he was overpowered twice in beam struggles.. He was clearly getting stronger against Vegito.
He was overpowered easily at first , the match become more even in the second half of the fight.


2) Both Fusee and Fusion were training extensively in Gotenks so even if they caught up it isn't soloely due to the multiplier but due to their individual training as well that backscales to their base form
 
SirAlex09 said:
Both examples are terrible.

1)Vegito only "seemed" so weak because Zamasu was rapidly catching up via Black's Zenkai. He already got those boosts when he was overpowered twice in beam struggles.. He was clearly getting stronger against Vegito.
He was overpowered easily at first , the match become more even in the second half of the fight.
Click to expand...
Not to mention Zamasu was holding back a lot before Goku and Vegeta fused...
 
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