Goten and Trunks High 4-C upgrade.

[Jobbo]

The Daizenshuu 2 states Goten's power wasn't the least bit inferior to Gohan's:

Goten possesses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan

Gohan also worries about being surpassed by them:


Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.3-6 Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: "You're very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn't known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you'll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!"
Goten: "Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!"
Gohan: "Really!? That's how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I'm not careful, I'll be outstripped…by these little squirts…"

Goten and Trunks worry about killing 18 with their full power:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7 Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: "Da-dammit! We can't win like this!"
Goten: "Let's turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!"
Trunks: "That's it! We've got this thing on, so she won't be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?"
Goten: "Yeah!"
No.18: "…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he's so unusually strong…"
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: "!!"
Trunks: "Either way, we're at a disadvantage in this getup, so we've got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!"
Goten: "Eh! But will she be alright?..."
Trunks: "Don't worry, she won't die if we do it appropriately. She's No.18…"


Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2 Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: "…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…"
Goten: "Don't do it at full force!"
Trunks: "I know, I know!"

18 states Trunks' heavily suppressed ki blast had outrageous power:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1 Context: after Trunks' ki blast explodes
No.18: "Yo-you've got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I've got to settle this fight soon!"

Piccolo states they're Earth's last hope even before fusion is brought up:

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: "These two are our only hope…! Th-though it's a faint hope…" Note: this is before Fusion is mentioned

There's also a scene where Piccolo is shocked and slightly blown back when they release their ki.

 

[BlastX]

Uh, they weren't? I always assumed they were high 4-C


Anyways, I agree with this

 

[DragonEmperor23]

bump

 

[Magi_Hussie]

I agree with this as well.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Goten and Trunks are already 4-C because of their fight with Android 18, so that point in the argument is moot.


And that statement from Gohan could easily just be Gohan reflecting on the immense potential of Goten and Trunks and how, without him keeping up his training anymore since his father died, he could soon be surpassed by his brother at this rate.

Not that Goten is on a comparable level of strength as Gohan as he is in the Buu Saga.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

Agreed as well.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

agreed

 

[1997KD]

Agreed

 

[Dark649]

There is stuff that might contraddict it:

1] Gohan was rusty and was impressed by Goten turning Super Saiyan and being strong at that age, implying that he fears that if he does not train in the future, he and Trunks might surpass him. It's a trope in the arc that everyone is impressed by the kids turning SS.

2] Android 18 noted that ki blast was strong and feared that they might be dangerous, so she had to defeat them. It's a tournament, 18 was not trying to kill them and it does not imply that individually SS Goten and Trunks are stronger than 18.

3] Piccolo knows the potential of the saiyans, but he is also aware of the fusion dance, so he was likely going to mention it. Also, SS Goten and Trunks are considerably weaker than Piccolo even after the Room training since Buu became Buuccolo, him being blown back does not count.

Overall in the Buu Saga, SS Goten and Trunks are stronger than Mecha Frieza, Gero and Android 19, but weaker than the other Androids and after the hyperbolic training they could be stronger than SS Android Saga Vegeta and 18, but weaker than Post Absorptions Imperfect Cell and Android 16, who are 4-C.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I see.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree with Dark, as I said.

 

[Jobbo]

Piccolo didn't know about fusion, he was surprised when Goku mentioned it. Also, they were in base inside Buu and Buu looked more human than when he only had Piccolo.

There's absolutely nothing contradicting the statement that Goten is comparable to Gohan.

Trunks and Goten are absolutely stronger than 18. Toriyama wouldn't have them holding back on her for no reason, this is like saying Cell was lying about blowing up the Solar System.

 

[Jobbo]

And also, Kepekley agrees with me, as seen in this thread

 

[Dark649]

Buu looked more human than when he only had Piccolo.

The form is called Buuccolo meaning that Piccolo was the dominant absorption.

There's absolutely nothing contradicting the statement that Goten is comparable to Gohan.

Gohan mention does not imply that Goten is equal to him, just if he stops training they will eventually surpass him.

Trunks and Goten are absolutely stronger than 18. Toriyama wouldn't have them holding back on her for no reason, this is like saying Cell was lying about blowing up the Solar System.

It's a tournament, not a serious death battle where everyone is forced to use their full power to kill the other opponent, like Cell who was going to blow up the solar system.

And also, Kepekley agrees with me, as seen in this thread.

Kep [later after this thread] talked about about that Goten and Trunks should not scale to 18 and Gohan in the Anime, so i'm not sure if he currently has the same opinion about this for their Manga version.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

Disagreed with Dark.

Piccolo did not know about fusion yet when he mentioned Goten and Trunks. He thought they had the best chance against Buu even without factoring in fusion.

Gohan thinking Goten could surpass him at all would insinuate to me that there's not a huge gap between their strengths, especially since he believes he has to start training now to not be surpassed. Gohan and Goten were also capable of sparring with each other and Gohan was constantly impressed with Goten's strength.

18 knew that who she was fighting was extraordinarily powerful. She didn't have much of a reason to hold back an extreme amount and even if she was there was nothing stopping Trunks and Goten from holding back as well. The matter is Trunks was fully capable of holding back 18 in his base form while in a tight costume and being held on to by Goten. The moment they go Super Saiyan 18 is freaked out and immediately resorts to using a Kienzan, which could literally have killed them if they didn't move out of the way.

Saying Piccolo was above the kids because Super Buu reverted to Piccolo's appearance doesn't mean much since when Goku found the kids they were in their base forms, so all that says is Piccolo>Base Trunks and Goten, which was obvious. Their Super Saiyan forms would still be above him, backed up by his amazed reaction from Goten and Trunks powering up.

 

[Dark649]

I have called Kep.

 

[Kepekley23]

I agree with this 100% except for the part about Goten = Gohan.

The form isn't called Buuccolo. None of Boo's forms have any canon names except for what fans choose to give them. They're all just "Majin Boo"

 

[Dark649]

After checking the arc while i also don't agree with Goten scaling to Gohan, High 4-C is likely fine since their fusion wouldn't be so strong [since their Fusion SS is stronger than SS3 Goku before the training] if their fusees were that weak.

 

[Damage3245]

Their Fusion SS is stronger than SS3 Goku? Didn't they get horribly beaten by Fat Buu?

 

[IvoryAS]

Their Fusion SS is stronger than SS3 Goku? Didn't they get horribly beaten by Fat Buu?

That was base form IIRC. But I'm feelin a little iffy on that statement myself.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

^It was

 

[Dark649]

Well, there is enough imput for an upgrade....

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I agree

 

[Dark649]

This was accepted, it's only a matter of applying it.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ok