Gyutaro’s Destruction of the Entertainment District Calc Conflict Review

[Epyriel]

Gyutaro’s destruction of the entertainment district currently has two accepted calculations. This calculation which uses destruction values to calculate the feat based on the observed destroyed buildings, and this calculation which calculates the kinetic energy of one of the largest rising blood blades.

The first calculation is thorough and does a good job of calculating the portion of the attack that actually levels the entertainment district, but does not account for the fact that the vast majority of the attack is launched into the air and does not make contact with the entertainment district at all.

The second calculation adequately calculates the kinetic energy of one of the largest blood blades, however this both fails to account for the rest of the attack launched in sync, but also demonstrates the reason for why kinetic energy is inappropriate for this case. If a single blood blade has Large Town level kinetic energy, why did the multitudes of blood blades launched horizontally radially outwards through the district only manage to make it about 260 meters before dying out, achieving mere Multi-City Block levels of destruction? If they truly had that level of power they should at least have reached tens of kilometres away.

In such cases, the kinetic energy rules make it clear that the destruction calculation takes priority:

There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.

In order to address both these issues, I have recalculated the feat using a spherical cap to model the equivalent destructive capacity of the airborne blood blades by using a ratio of the destruction of the horizontal component using the original destruction calculation.

Essentially I am assuming the blood blades are even enough in their distribution that I can take the horizontal portion of the attack as representative of its power proportional to the area it sweeps out on a hemisphere.

As an analogy, I am in essence using the logic that if a quarter of an explosion’s fireball enacts the equivalent of 10 tons of TNT of destruction, then the entire explosion should be equal to about 40 tons of TNT. Similar logic is already in use in accepted site methods such as the ground explosion formula.

So, which calculation should be used for this feat?

FelpeXDopZ’s Original Destruction Calculation [275 tons/305 tons]: (1:2) Dalesean027, Chariot190, Vzearr
My Spherical Cap Calculation [7.41 kilotons]: (1:0) Floxy178
Xaro’s Kinetic Energy Calculation [29 kilotons/161 kilotons]: (0:0)

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

are you sure they dissapear?

The video shown in your model show them all targeting the sky or going off screen rather than being omnidirectional, i don't see any of them dissapearing after moving a certain distance evern after watching the video in slow motion.

I even checked the full thing and only the last iteration of the blood blades managed to dissapear at all, so i question where you got the premise that they dissappear after about 260 meters from.

 

[Epyriel]

are you sure they dissapear?

The video shown in your model show them all targeting the sky or going off screen rather than being omnidirectional, i don't see any of them dissapearing after moving a certain distance evern after watching the video in slow motion.

I even checked the full thing and only the last iteration of the blood blades managed to dissapear at all, so i question where you got the premise that they dissappear after about 260 meters from.

I am referring to the horizontal blades traveling through the buildings who’s destruction stops at the ~260m mark.

Those going in the air don’t hit anything and can travel far further.

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

The second calculation adequately calculates the kinetic energy of one of the largest blood blades, however this both fails to account for the rest of the attack launched in sync, but also demonstrates the reason for why kinetic energy is inappropriate for this case. If a single blood blade has Large Town level kinetic energy, why did the multitudes of blood blades launched horizontally radially outwards through the district only manage to make it about 260 meters before dying out, achieving mere Multi-City Block levels of destruction? If they truly had that level of power they should at least have reached tens of kilometres away.

I suggest that this refers only to the range of Gyutaro itself, if they are all acting at such a distance, I see some hypotheses, such as such as the process of Gyutaro's disappearance and the limit of its reach, despite it not being declared in the work.

The blade I use has not even come into contact with buildings, we see how much bigger and more powerful they are compared to those that were in pre-formation on the ground.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate much on this, I'm fine with your calculation or Felpe calculation, have me agree with yours for now.

 

[Epyriel]

I suggest that this refers only to the range of Gyutaro itself, if they are all acting at such a distance, I see some hypotheses, such as such as the process of Gyutaro's disappearance and the limit of its reach, despite it not being declared in the work.

In that case we should see those flying in the air disappear on screen instead of flying off-screen.

The blade I use has not even come into contact with buildings, we see how much bigger and more powerful they are compared to those that were in pre-formation on the ground.

Potentially true, but I see this as unlikely considering the blood blade you measured would have to be thousands and thousands of times stronger than any of the multitudes that struck the district (or even all put together).

Anyway, I'm not going to debate much on this, I'm fine with your calculation or Felpe calculation, have me agree with yours for now.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Not a CGM apologies but The Spherical Cap Calculation sounds better than the Original Destruction Calc

 

[Dalesean027]

FelpeXDopZ’s is best here, the new one calculates energy for blood blades that never hits anything and shouldn't really add to the yield, the original destruction gets the actual yield of the area destroyed and directly gets its volume, its the most accurate in that sense while not trying to add value where there is none just because some blades went into the sky. That's where I stand on this and I don't see my opinion on it switching

 

[Epyriel]

FelpeXDopZ’s is best here, the new one calculates energy for blood blades that never hits anything and shouldn't really add to the yield, the original destruction gets the actual yield of the area destroyed and directly gets its volume, its the most accurate in that sense while not trying to add value where there is none just because some blades went into the sky. That's where I stand on this and I don't see my opinion on it switching

Doesn’t really make sense to me because if for example we want to calculate an explosion from a nuke detonated in the air above a field of flowers, we don’t say the yield is limited to just the energy it takes to scorch the flowers and displace the dirt at the edge of its range, we calculate its yield based in its entirety from the size of the fireball (in recognition that most of the attack went into the air and should be accounted for).

I see no reason in just ignoring a majority of the attack.

 

[Chariot190]

Reminder that the only thing that actually matters, is how much a single one destroyed.
It doesn't matter if there was 5 or 500 of them, you don't tally that shit up. Would be like taking danmaku or a minigun, calcing a bullet at 9-B, but because there's 5000 bullets you multiply it by 5000, no, the single bullet is still only 9-B, it doesn't suddenly become 9-A.

 

[Epyriel]

Reminder that the only thing that actually matters, is how much a single one destroyed.
It doesn't matter if there was 5 or 500 of them, you don't tally that shit up. Would be like taking danmaku or a minigun, calcing a bullet at 9-B, but because there's 5000 bullets you multiply it by 5000, no, the single bullet is still only 9-B, it doesn't suddenly become 9-A.

An attack launched in sync.
By this logic you could say a punch should be divided by a septillion because in reality it is nothing but a septillion individual atoms moving in sync. Or an explosion is really just a decillion atoms in the air being launched in all directions, and only the DC of a single one should be tallied.

Regardless, Gyutaro scaling to the entirety of the attack on the basis of an accepted NPES for BDAs was itself already accepted a while ago, you will need your own CRT to remove it.

This thread is purely about choosing a calc for the attack itself.

 

[Chariot190]

An attack launched in sync.

Yeah don't matter. We don't treat every single bullet a 2hu fires and combine them, we don't take every projectile in Emerald Splash and combine them, we don't take every droplet from a rain dude and combine them, etc. We only rate the AP of an individual projectile.
There being a shit ton doesn't increase the strength of the attacks themselves, it's just quantity, it has zero effect on the AP value or offensive output.

By this logic you could say a punch should be divided by a septillion because in reality it is nothing but a septillion individual atoms moving in sync. Or an explosion is really just a decillion atoms in the air being launched in all directions, and only the DC of a single one should be tallied.

It's arguments like these that puts these types of threads in a bad light.

Regardless, Gyutaro scaling to the entirety of the attack on the basis of an accepted NPES for BDAs was itself already accepted a while ago, you will need your own CRT to remove it.

I am literally writing out a downgrade CRT as we speak with multiple mods, why are you digging yourself a hole, like I wasn't before but Ig I am now

This thread is purely about choosing a calc for the attack itself.

Yeah well, put me in with Dale.

 

[Raiden38]

Agree with Dalesean

 

[Vzearr]

you cannot comfortably calculate KE here, it just doesn’t work. Vote me with the first calc.

 

[Epyriel]

Yeah don't matter. We don't treat every single bullet a 2hu fires and combine them, we don't take every projectile in Emerald Splash and combine them, we don't take every droplet from a rain dude and combine them, etc. We only rate the AP of an individual projectile.
There being a shit ton doesn't increase the strength of the attacks themselves, it's just quantity, it has zero effect on the AP value or offensive output.

It is functionally no different from an explosion. It is launched in synch as practically a wave and you aren’t getting hit by a single projectile at a time.

It's arguments like these that puts these types of threads in a bad light.

It is known as Reductio Ad Absurdum, and simply being dismissive doesn’t help.

Obviously indexing a punch by individual atoms is ridiculous, which begs the question, what is the dividing line that defines what should be indexed as a single attack rather than a collection of subparts that should be treated separately?

 

[Vzearr]

It is functionally no different from an explosion. It is launched in synch as practically a wave and you aren’t getting hit by a single projectile at a time.


It is known as Reductio Ad Absurdum, and simply being dismissive doesn’t help.

Obviously indexing a punch by individual atoms is ridiculous, which begs the question, what is the dividing line that defines what should be indexed as a single attack rather than a collection of subparts that should be treated separately?






Respectfully, this is a CGM thread and your votes do not count.

As a former cgm my vote should hold some value.

Anyways, people are entitled to vote in threads, there is no rule against it. Drop the attitude. Please..

 

[Epyriel]

As a former cgm my vote should hold some value.

I guess as you wish.

Anyways, people are entitled to vote in threads, there is no rule against it. Drop the attitude. Please..

I am not intending to be disrespectful. I apologize if this doesn’t come across well over text.

I merely hope to remind people of the nature of CGDTs:

A board serving as a workshop for the calc group, to more easily discuss different calculations and wiki projects. Other members should only comment if they can provide information, or it is otherwise useful for a discussion.

 

[Vzearr]

On second thought, you’re right about members commenting.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

Reminder that the only thing that actually matters, is how much a single one destroyed.
It doesn't matter if there was 5 or 500 of them, you don't tally that shit up. Would be like taking danmaku or a minigun, calcing a bullet at 9-B, but because there's 5000 bullets you multiply it by 5000, no, the single bullet is still only 9-B, it doesn't suddenly become 9-A.

A minigun fires one bullet at a time, one after the other with a definite time interval between each, which doesn't really resemble what Gyutaro did. His final attack consisted of releasing and accelerating multiple blades simultaneously, so it's more analogous to an explosion.

We could also think of it in this way:
Say character A pushes a 4 ton block of concrete with his telekinesis.
Now, A simultaneously pushes 4 concrete blocks, each one with a mass of 1 ton.
Even though in the second case A pushes 4 separate blocks, we know there exists a single energy source that's allowing for this movement (character A), and since all blocks are being accelerated at once, then this scenario is energetically equivalent to the first one, as both require the same energy output. Whether the blocks are glued together or not doesn’t really matter.

Gyutaro's attack is no different from this. While he released multiple blades, all of them were accelerated at once, that means he was pouring energy into each blade at the same time. And there really is nothing stopping him from pouring all this energy on a single blade if he wanted to.​

 

[Chariot190]

It is functionally no different from an explosion. It is launched in synch as practically a wave and you aren’t getting hit by a single projectile at a time.

You don't need to get hit by one at a time.
Danmaku, rain attacks, or even shit like Emerald Splash is gonna get you hit by a dozen at once, but a dozen different 9-B attacks, doesnt make the character 9-A. It's still just a bunch of 9-B attacks.

It is known as Reductio Ad Absurdum, and simply being dismissive doesn’t help.

Being dismissive helps because the alternative is me not being able to take you seriously.

Obviously indexing a punch by individual atoms is ridiculous, which begs the question, what is the dividing line that defines what should be indexed as a single attack rather than a collection of subparts that should be treated separately?

Are you really asking the dividing line between what counts as one thing and what doesn't? Use your eyes, I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Respectfully, this is a CGM thread and your votes do not count.

Was gonna make the DS downgrade a open CRT so everyone could comment but that shit is gonna be staff only now just for that.

A minigun fires one bullet at a time, one after the other with a definite time interval between each, which doesn't really resemble what Gyutaro did. His final attack consisted of releasing and accelerating multiple blades simultaneously, so it's more analogous to an explosion.

No. They're individual projectiles, you don't combine them together, ever, shit isn't allowed. Keyword, "multiple blades", if it's multiple, it ain't what you think it is and we as a wiki don't treat shit like that.

We don't do that for danmaku, we don't do that for anything.

We could also think of it in this way:
snip​

We'd actually wouldn't do that, each block would have it's own specific KE/Force.
The only way that would work is if say, someone threw a single punch, and launched those 4 blocks, but that's ultimately still because that energy is derived from a single attack.

Gyutaro's attack is no different from this. While he released multiple blades, all of them were accelerated at once, that means he was pouring energy into each blade at the same time. And there really is nothing stopping him from pouring all this energy on a single blade if he wanted to.​

How about proof? How about evidence he can? You don't get to assume this.
Prove he can shove all that energy contained by each individual projectile in a linear accumulative manner into a single projectile instead of the technique itself or numerous other variables limiting it to what's shown?

This is rhetorical, you can't, I know you can't, all you have is conjecture, which is never going to be good enough.

Having a single energy pool/source, also doesn't mean that shit scales linear in output and application.
Like, for example, let's say Frieren or Link have a manapool of 10000. And a then they shoot a 7-B attack and it takes 1 mana.
In no world would we ever go "well technically they should be able to put do one attack with 10000 mana so actually they should be 6-C". Prove they can? If they can't, they can't.
They either show it, or all it amounts to is essentially a stamina pool.

This doesn't matter, guess we're tackling this feat as a whole too in the CRT.

 

[Epyriel]

You don't need to get hit by one at a time.
Danmaku, rain attacks, or even shit like Emerald Splash is gonna get you hit by a dozen at once, but a dozen different 9-B attacks, doesnt make the character 9-A. It's still just a bunch of 9-B attacks.

Being dismissive helps because the alternative is me not being able to take you seriously.

Are you really asking the dividing line between what counts as one thing and what doesn't? Use your eyes, I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Was gonna make the DS downgrade a open CRT so everyone could comment but that shit is gonna be staff only now just for that.

Respectfully, have I offended you in some way? This is starting to feel personal.

 

[Dalesean027]

Respectfully, have I offended you in some way? This is starting to feel personal.

nothing he said was even aggressive here?

 

[Epyriel]

nothing he said was even aggressive here?

Perhaps it is just a matter of not being good at judging social interactions and I am simply misreading this, I apologize if that is the case, but this felt angry. I do not wish to have unknowingly offended someone.

Being dismissive helps because the alternative is me not being able to take you seriously.

Are you really asking the dividing line between what counts as one thing and what doesn't? Use your eyes, I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Was gonna make the DS downgrade a open CRT so everyone could comment but that shit is gonna be staff only now just for that.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

As a former cgm my vote should hold some value.

they will hold the same value as a regular member's sadly

 

[Chariot190]

Respectfully, have I offended you in some way? This is starting to feel personal.

I literally can not comment on your analogy without coming off as extremely condescending so I'm refraining from doing so, not because I want to be mean or offend, but because your example is such a huge false equivalence that to explain why it doesn't apply I would have to actually treat you like you don't know wtf you're talking about and I'm going to assume you actually do, and are just being overtly hyperbolic.
the second one is def on you thou, don't try to discredit or undermine people's stances and then act surprised when your right to partake is vetoed.

 

[Epyriel]

the second one is def on you thou, don't try to discredit or undermine people's stances and then act surprised when your right to partake is vetoed.

That was not my intent. I was merely trying to stop more randoms from simply commenting some variation of ‘I agree’.

For what its worth I had included mention of retired staff votes already at Vzearr’s request.

 

[Dalesean027]

That was not my intent. I was merely trying to stop more randoms from simply commenting some variation of ‘I agree’.

For what its worth I had included mention of retired staff votes already at Vzearr’s request.

I mean if they agree that's fine, its not your place to say they can't agree and say they're votes don't matter anyways basically telling them to shut up for agreeing with someone else

just keep it pushing

 

[Epyriel]

I mean if they agree that's fine, its not your place to say they can't agree and say they're votes don't matter anyways basically telling them to shut up for agreeing with someone else

just keep it pushing

I was under the impression that blue names were not supposed to comment at all unless they are providing something transformative to the discussion.

A board serving as a workshop for the calc group, to more easily discuss different calculations and wiki projects. Other members should only comment if they can provide information, or it is otherwise useful for a discussion.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

My only question is why are you using common wood when Japan is notorious for using wood native to its Island.

All You Need To Know About Japanese Wood

Third in the world, only behind Finland and Sweden, in terms of the forest coverage ratio of its total land area, about two-thirds of Japan’s land area is made up of forests. The result of this ready access to wood has meant that Japanese people have long made copious use of it for building...

daitool.com

Woods Used in Traditional Japanese Crafts

Learn about Japan's finest woods, such as hinoki and sugi, with insights on their unique properties and their many uses in Japanese traditional crafts.

musubikiln.com

The two most popular are Hinoki & Sugi wood which have a frag value of which is 1-2 MPa (or 1-2 J/cc, source here for hinoki and source here for Sugi)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I was under the impression that blue names were not supposed to comment at all unless they are providing something transformative to the discussion.

In fairness, it might have been better to ask everyone to avoid posting shallow agreements or disagreements.

That rule does not apply to users who are actively contributing to the actual topic, policing them for adding their vote after they made a genuine point was kinda unnecessary

 

[Dalesean027]

My only question is why are you using common wood when Japan is notorious for using wood native to its Island.

All You Need To Know About Japanese Wood

Third in the world, only behind Finland and Sweden, in terms of the forest coverage ratio of its total land area, about two-thirds of Japan’s land area is made up of forests. The result of this ready access to wood has meant that Japanese people have long made copious use of it for building...

daitool.com

Woods Used in Traditional Japanese Crafts

Learn about Japan's finest woods, such as hinoki and sugi, with insights on their unique properties and their many uses in Japanese traditional crafts.

musubikiln.com

The two most popular are Hinoki & Sugi wood which have a frag value of which is 1-2 MPa (or 1-2 J/cc, source here for hinoki and source here for Sugi)

this is a valid point since its Japan's Taishō period which was between July 1912 to December 1926, they were not using american wood imports

 

[Epyriel]

In fairness, it might have been better to ask everyone to avoid posting shallow agreements or disagreements.

That rule does not apply to users who are actively contributing to the actual topic, policing them for adding their vote after they made a genuine point was kinda unnecessary

Ok, I have removed the message entirely. But for the record I was replying to people who had also just stated “I agree” and nothing else.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

No. They're individual projectiles, you don't combine them together, ever, shit isn't allowed. Keyword, "multiple blades", if it's multiple, it ain't what you think it is and we as a wiki don't treat shit like that.

I'm not denying the fact these were multiple blades, but they were all accelerated at once, and they were all being accelerated by Gyutaro’s telekinesis alone at the same time, so their combined energy is coming from Gyutaro.

We'd actually wouldn't do that, each block would have it's own specific KE/Force.

Naturally, each block has its own KE, but it can't be denied that, if all 4 blocks are accelerated at the same time by a single energy source, then this scenario is indistinguishable from accelerating a single block with the same mass as the 4 previous blocks combined.

The only way that would work is if say, someone threw a single punch, and launched those 4 blocks, but that's ultimately still because that energy is derived from a single attack.

This is also analogous to my previous example, except instead of a character physically punching the blocks, said character used their telekinesis to achieve the same result. The energy output really is no different.

How about proof? How about evidence he can? You don't get to assume this [...]

I mean, I don't really see why Gyutaro couldn't simply combine two or more blades into one, he's already able to control multiple of them at the same time, so putting them together should be completely doable. Is there any reason to think he couldn't? Furthermore, most (if not all) demons have shown being able to control the power output of their BDAs. And he actually did here, when trying to attack Tengen from the back he used 3 blood baldes at the same time.

Having a single energy pool/source, also doesn't mean that shit scales linear in output and application.
Like, for example, let's say Frieren or Link have a manapool of 10000. And a then they shoot a 7-B attack and it takes 1 mana [...]

I'm not sure how is this related to Gyutaro's attack, the energy output wasn't determined from how much “energy points” he invested into a single attack and then multiplied by the total number of “energy points” he has on his energy pool. The total energy of Gyutaro’s attack was already quantified, and we know he released it all at once (all the blades accelerating simultaneously).

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not denying the fact these were multiple blades, but they were all accelerated at once, and they were all being accelerated by Gyutaro’s telekinesis alone at the same time, so their combined energy is coming from Gyutaro.

Doesn't matter. Prove he can apply that same force to an individual object to the same degree as the total combined force of every individual blade at once.

This literally isn't how this works. The mass and speed of the projectiles won't suddenly increase because he's only doing it to 1 instead of 100, nothing says he can, nothing shows he can, nothing even implies the technique works like that. It's just danmaku, you get the energy of a single projectile, and that's it, end of.

Naturally, each block has its own KE, but it can't be denied that, if all 4 blocks are accelerated at the same time by a single energy source, then this scenario is indistinguishable from accelerating a single block with the same mass as the 4 previous blocks combined.

You're focusing on the "single energy" source as if that shit is on a slider.
It isn't.
Prove it works linearly like that.

Prove a character that can push two one ton blocks, can actually lift a single two ton block. The total mass may not have increased between both, but the individual mass has, can this character still accelerate that individual two ton object at the same speed they could accelerate two individual blocks?
No, the speed would obviously decrease.

This is also analogous to my previous example, except instead of a character physically punching the blocks, said character used their telekinesis to achieve the same result. The energy output really is no different.

It's completely different because one is based in actual physics and one is an arbitrary made up power who's rules get defined solely but what fits the argument.

I mean, I don't really see why Gyutaro couldn't simply combine two or more blades into one, he's already able to control multiple of them at the same time, so putting them together should be completely doable.

Prove it.
And then prove the extra mass wouldn't tank the acceleration and speed of the new blade leading to a much lower velocity, and thus KE.

Is there any reason to think he couldn't?

Why is there any reason to think he could? Burden of proof is on you claiming he can.
Not to mention this is essentially his suicide attack, why the hell wouldn't he be going all in here?

Furthermore, most (if not all) demons have shown being able to control the power output of their BDAs. And he actually did here, when trying to attack Tengen from the back he used 3 blood baldes at the same time.

So? 3 blood blades that are actually smaller and less destructive then the blades being calced.
It doesn't help your point.

I'm not sure how is this related to Gyutaro's attack, the energy output wasn't determined from how much “energy points” he invested into a single attack and then multiplied by the total number of “energy points” he has on his energy pool.

That's literally the only way you'd have an argument, is if that's exactly how it worked.
Saying it isn't how it works, essentially undermines your entire point.
In fact, that makes the argument even worse, because he's not expanding energy from a pool so the "energy" is split up, whether he does it to 1 or 500 doesn't matter in this instance.

If the "single energy source", which you're trying to frame can mechanically and linearly apply the total combined energy of every single projectile into a hypothetical single attack, doesn't actually draw energy in a linear way like that, then there's nothing to be debated. You'd need to prove he can, you would need to prove the magical telekinesis is somehow splitting it's energy output between every blade, as opposed to just accelerating each blade to what it's capable of by default like most would assume would be hot it'd work,

The total energy of Gyutaro’s attack was already quantified, and we know he released it all at once (all the blades accelerating simultaneously).

I'm not continuing this with you past his point.
This isn't how the wiki works.
This isn't how we treat any attack like this.
Your entire reasoning for it is based on conjecture, assumptions, deciding the rules of how the metaphorical telekinesis functions and how energy is applied between objects from it onto others.
It only works if we assume his TK works as a sliding scale and can do things never shown or implied, instead of just acting on each object individually to the best of his ability.
This isn't solid, this isn't proof, it's being hyper generous for the sake of it, just to slap a big number on a danmaku attack. And the worst part is, it wouldn't even matter because we only rate the AP of a single projectile anyway regardless of if your conjecture was correct on every front because each blade still only has that particular AP and being hit by multiple of them doesn't multiply the damage dealt or force taken, and it isn't like DS ha some sort of UES energy system or point system for anyone ever to upscale off the "total energy".

ALSO, the blades weren't all launched simultaneously, don't know why we're pretending 100 blades got eject 1:1 at the same time in the exact same instance, going frame by frame, they're definitely fired one after the other, most I see emerge at a single time is legit just 3 not counting ones already fired and still moving further ahead, so cycle back around to the minigun example.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

My only question is why are you using common wood when Japan is notorious for using wood native to its Island.
The two most popular are Hinoki & Sugi wood which have a frag value of which is 1-2 MPa (or 1-2 J/cc, source here for hinoki and source here for Sugi)

It should be noted we currently determine the value for regular fragmentation of wood based on the perpendicular to grain compressive strength, which is not the value present in the study you linked (by the way, both links lead to the same study), since it actually talks about shear strength (which I'm not sure which is all that correct either since it's contradicted by various other sources). I could only find this study where they documented hinoki's perpendicular to grain compressive strength (Table 4, R and T directions), which ranges from 6.3 to 6.7 MPa.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

It should be noted we currently determine the value for regular fragmentation of wood based on the perpendicular to grain compressive strength, which is not the value present in the study you linked (by the way, both links lead to the same study), since it actually talks about shear strength (which I'm not sure which is all that correct either since it's contradicted by various other sources). I could only find this study where they documented hinoki's perpendicular to grain compressive strength (Table 4, R and T directions), which ranges from 6.3 to 6.7 MPa.

Hinoki are usually more expensive. Sugi Wood is more used more commonly.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

Doesn't matter. Prove he can apply that same force to an individual object to the same degree as the total combined force of every individual blade at once.

I don't really get your point, Gyutaro is already manipulating multiple blades at once, how does “tying them with a rope” changes anything?

You're focusing on the "single energy" source as if that shit is on a slider.

There being a single energy source is important, but I’m not focusing on it really. The main point is that, accelerating a single object with a mass of M to a certain velocity v, takes the same amount of energy as accelerating n different objects each with a mass of M/n up to that same velocity v, and the power (now in the sense of energy per unit time) is the exact same in both scenarios (assuming the process occurs in the same timeframe). In terms of power and energy, both scenarios are quite literally physically indistinguishable.

Prove a character that can push two one ton blocks, can actually lift a single two ton block. The total mass may not have increased between both, but the individual mass has, can this character still accelerate that individual two ton object at the same speed they could accelerate two individual blocks?

If a character can push/lift two 1 ton blocks at the same time, then they certainly can push/lift a single 2 ton block. Say character A places a 2 ton block on some table with negligible mass, then they lift the table holding the block above their head and start walking up a hill, if the block suddenly splits in half, A now has two 1 ton blocks, but the total mass remains unchanged, they’re still lifting 2 tons above their head.
You can also think of A pulling on a 2 ton block from two ropes tided to it. If the block is suddenly split in half, such that each still has one of ropes tied at it, then A is still pulling 2 tons, nothing has really changed, the force and power required to push these blocks is still the same.

No, the speed would obviously decrease.

Not really. If two objects are moving at the same velocity in the same direction, and they suddenly get stuck together, they will retain their velocity and continue moving just as before, from their reference frame they were both stationary after all, so if getting stuck together somehow changes their speed, then this would mean energy came out of nowhere, therefore violating energy conservation. If you’re in a car moving at constant speed, and stick two lego pieces together, they won’t suddenly hit you because they decelerated.

It's completely different because one is based in actual physics and one is an arbitrary made up power who's rules get defined solely but what fits the argument.

Um, no? All I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter how you accelerate an object up to a certain velocity, the energy required to do so is the same whether you use physical strength or telekinesis.

Prove it.
And then prove the extra mass wouldn't tank the acceleration and speed of the new blade leading to a much lower velocity, and thus KE.

I'm not sure I understand correctly, do you want me to prove N objects, each with a mass M/N, moving with speed v have the same energy as a single object with mass M moving at the same speed v?

Not to mention this is essentially his suicide attack, why the hell wouldn't he be going all in here?

It wasn't a suicidal attack, it was his round slashes of death as he himself stated.

So? 3 blood blades that are actually smaller and less destructive then the blades being calced.
It doesn't help your point.

You asked me to prove Gyutaro could combine multiple blades, and I did just that. With all due respect, asking now to prove he can do the same with larger blades really seems like moving the goalpost.

In fact, that makes the argument even worse, because he's not expanding energy from a pool so the "energy" is split up, whether he does it to 1 or 500 doesn't matter in this instance.

But he actually is expending energy from an energy pool, I don’t know where you got the idea he isn’t.

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

I am referring to the horizontal blades traveling through the buildings who’s destruction stops at the ~260m mark.

Those going in the air don’t hit anything and can travel far further.

i rechecked the anime again, there wasn't a single purely horizontal blade as most of them are launched at an angle upwards, slowing down the animation again we can see horizontal blood blades

i took some screenshots as an example

https://imgur.com/gallery/screenshots-tYoDinJ

i invite you to watch the animated sequence in slow motion, here is the video i used for reference



please watch from 2:24 at x0.25 speed, i may have missed something, but i watched countless times, and the blood blades never really dissapear, even the horizontal ones still go off screen

this one for example

edit: on another note, what happened here

Felpe doesn't talk much, the fact that he is here is something lol

also question please

he new one calculates energy for blood blades that never hits anything and shouldn't really add to the yield,

epyriel's calc should be a closer and better estimate no?

considering most of the attack hit nothing, only quantifying the energy based on destroyed volume seems less accurate, epyriel used three components in his calc that allowed him to better quantify it, from what i understood, he stated since we know how much destruction happened in the horizontal plane (Felpe's calc) we can compare that to the size/shape of the spherical cap (in epyriel's calc) and then scale up the destructive capacity based on that ratio.

i really don't see why this isn't better to use assuming accuracy is the goal, as what you're essencially doing is like judging the power of a grenade only by the scorch mark on the ground, while ignoring the blast dome in the air.
Since most of the blades didn’t hit solid structures, volume/area scaling is a fairer representation as otherwise the feat gets artificially lowballed just because the environment didn’t absorb/demonstrate the full force.

@Epyriel please correct if i'm wrong

 

[Epyriel]

i rechecked the anime again, there wasn't a single purely horizontal blade as most of them are launched at an angle upwards, slowing down the animation again we can see horizontal blood blades

i took some screenshots as an example

https://imgur.com/gallery/screenshots-tYoDinJ

i invite you to watch the animated sequence in slow motion, here is the video i used for reference



please watch from 2:24 at x0.25 speed, i may have missed something, but i watched countless times, and the blood blades never really dissapear, even the horizontal ones still go off screen

this one for example

The horizontal section of the attack is seen in the first three shots of the attack instead of the last far-view that just shows the remainder vertical component flying off-screen.

We see a multitude of horizontal blades hitting first Tengen, then Tanjio, and then the surrounding district:

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

The horizontal section of the attack is seen in the first three shots of the attack instead of the last far-view that just shows the remainder vertical component flying off-screen.

We see a multitude of horizontal blades hitting first Tengen, then Tanjio, and then the surrounding district:

you can see vertical blades here tho?

even the ones hitting tengen and tanjiro came from underground and were vertical

if anything all the blades visbly shoot up to the sky at an angle somewhere, they don't really dissapear,

even the shot you sent shows vertical blades shooting up to the sky rather than horizontal ones (granted, only one is visible, the rest of the blood blades are hidden behind the buildings shown)

i think 260 meters is just the range of the destruction that was a byporduct of the blades shooting up to the sky rather than the full destructive output of the attack itself.


Btw, did i interpret your calc correctly?

 

[Epyriel]

you can see vertical blades here tho?

even the ones hitting tengen and tanjiro came from underground and were vertical

if anything all the blades visbly shoot up to the sky at an angle somewhere, they don't really dissapear,

even the shot you sent shows vertical blades shooting up to the sky rather than horizontal ones (granted, only one is visible, the rest of the blood blades are hidden behind the buildings shown)

i think 260 meters is just the range of the destruction that was a byporduct of the blades shooting up to the sky rather than the full destructive output of the attack itself.

The horizontal component is actively going through the building which is why it is a little hard to make out through the rubble, but in the full shot we definitely see it going towards the camera without adequate blades escaping through the top of the shot to explain the damage, and the final shot we see are completely front facing slashes:

Btw, did i interpret your calc correctly?

Yes.