Gyutaro’s Destruction of the Entertainment District Calc Conflict Review

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

The horizontal component is actively going through the building which is why it is a little hard to make out through the rubble, but in the full shot we definitely see it going towards the camera without adequate blades escaping throuhg the top of the shot to explain the damage, and the final shot we see are completely front facing slashes:

the blood blades escaping dwarf the houses destroyed in size, and the quantity is sufficient to justify the ammount of destruction caused by the attack as the vertical blades continue to manifest for quite a while, and if by "first shot" you mean the one that included tengen, we only see vertical blades spawning from the ground and slowly increasing in range, as in assuming a 2D circular model for the range with gytaro as the center, vertical blood blades/blood blades manifested at an angle spawned across the entire circle area of the range of the attack.

of course, this at least seems to be what happened in the animation, even the manga shows blood blades spawning and slowly going up rather than staying on a pure horizontal plane, so i really just disagree with notion that there horizontal blades that simply dissapeared at the 260 m mark

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

Hinoki are usually more expensive. Sugi Wood is more used more commonly.

The links there aren't very informative, this first one only says that hinoki is expensive when used as a building material, but it doesn't really compares it to other wood types, so perhaps it isn't more expensive than sugi or might be slightly more expensive, etc; even so, this doesn't necessarily implies it's used less frequently. The second one only states that sugi is used for pillars, beams or boards when it comes to being used as a building material; with most applications not being related to construction, while it doesn't really says it's more commonly used than hinoki.

From what I could learn, hinoki is probably the most famous wood in Japan and it's used in the construction of residential homes (like the ones in the ED), it's also very resistant and long-lasting. On the other hand, sugi is relatively light making it not very suitable for constructions that require high hardness (like buildings), and is often used for other means different from construction.

 

[GodEarh206]

Damn..

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

So was this thread nuked or are we still going?

 

[Raiden38]

So was this thread nuked or are we still going?

???

 

[Raiden38]

Gyutaro’s destruction of the entertainment district currently has two accepted calculations. This calculation which uses destruction values to calculate the feat based on the observed destroyed buildings, and this calculation which calculates the kinetic energy of one of the largest rising blood blades.

The first calculation is thorough and does a good job of calculating the portion of the attack that actually levels the entertainment district, but does not account for the fact that the vast majority of the attack is launched into the air and does not make contact with the entertainment district at all.

The second calculation adequately calculates the kinetic energy of one of the largest blood blades, however this both fails to account for the rest of the attack launched in sync, but also demonstrates the reason for why kinetic energy is inappropriate for this case. If a single blood blade has Large Town level kinetic energy, why did the multitudes of blood blades launched horizontally radially outwards through the district only manage to make it about 260 meters before dying out, achieving mere Multi-City Block levels of destruction? If they truly had that level of power they should at least have reached tens of kilometres away.

In such cases, the kinetic energy rules make it clear that the destruction calculation takes priority:


In order to address both these issues, I have recalculated the feat using a spherical cap to model the equivalent destructive capacity of the airborne blood blades by using a ratio of the destruction of the horizontal component using the original destruction calculation.

Essentially I am assuming the blood blades are even enough in their distribution that I can take the horizontal portion of the attack as representative of its power proportional to the area it sweeps out on a hemisphere.

As an analogy, I am in essence using the logic that if a quarter of an explosion’s fireball enacts the equivalent of 10 tons of TNT of destruction, then the entire explosion should be equal to about 40 tons of TNT. Similar logic is already in use in accepted site methods such as the ground explosion formula.

So, which calculation should be used for this feat?

FelpeXDopZ’s Original Destruction Calculation [305 tons]: (1:2) Dalesean027, Chariot190, Vzearr
My Spherical Cap Calculation [8 kilotons]: (0:0)
Xaro’s Kinetic Energy Calculation [29 kilotons/161 kilotons]: (0:0)

call other members of the calc group

 

[Epyriel]

call other members of the calc group

I have, still waiting.

 

[NikHelton]

FelpeXDopZ’s is best here, the new one calculates energy for blood blades that never hits anything and shouldn't really add to the yield, the original destruction gets the actual yield of the area destroyed and directly gets its volume, its the most accurate in that sense while not trying to add value where there is none just because some blades went into the sky. That's where I stand on this and I don't see my opinion on it switching

Why does the fact that part of the attack went into the sky mean that we shouldn't consider the KE of this blade? However, I disagree with the shape. It looks more like a fragment of a sphere (imagine a slice of watermelon, as if a piece of the sphere was cut from the top at an angle of n degrees) or a curved semi-parallelepiped

 

[NikHelton]

Doesn't matter. Prove he can apply that same force to an individual object to the same degree as the total combined force of every individual blade at once.

This literally isn't how this works. The mass and speed of the projectiles won't suddenly increase because he's only doing it to 1 instead of 100, nothing says he can, nothing shows he can, nothing even implies the technique works like that. It's just danmaku, you get the energy of a single projectile, and that's it, end of.

Excuse me, but if I throw 2 balls with one hand at 10 m/sec, wouldn't that require 2 times more force and energy than if I threw 1 ball at the same speed?

 

[NikHelton]

We either need to rethink the blade shape or the 8-A option is more suitable.

 

[Chariot190]

Excuse me, but if I throw 2 balls with one hand at 10 m/sec, wouldn't that require 2 times more force and energy than if I threw 1 ball at the same speed?

False equivalence to the context in which this feat occurs that sort of physical feat is fine, it's not a comparable situation.
Like you wouldn't say Vegeta throwing a burst of about 10000 ki blasts that are all 5-B individually means Vegeta (at that point in time this is an example), is actually 10000x higher than 5-B and is like 5-A or low 4-C because "in theory". This is how we treat any attack like this without actual relevant backing information, it's just danmaku.
I'm not commenting on it further here, we can deal with that in the upcoming threat.

 

[Epyriel]

False equivalence to the context in which this feat occurs, it's not a comparable situation.
Like you wouldn't say Vegeta throwing a burst of about 10000 ki blasts that are all 5-B individually means Vegeta (at that point in time this is an example), is actually 10000x higher than 5-B and is like 5-A or low 4-C because "in theory". This is how we treat any attack like this without actual relevant backing information, it's just danmaku.
I'm not commenting on it further here, we can deal with that in the upcoming threat.

If Vegeta releases 10,000 ki blasts at once in a single go and blows up a star as a consequence then he absolutely should be rated as such.

 

[Chariot190]

If Vegeta releases 10,000 ki blasts at once in a single go and blows up a star as a consequence then he absolutely should be rated as such.

We would divide it by 10000 actually, we divide destruction calcs by the amount of attacks required to do so.

 

[NikHelton]

False equivalence to the context in which this feat occurs, it's not a comparable situation.
Like you wouldn't say Vegeta throwing a burst of about 10000 ki blasts that are all 5-B individually means Vegeta (at that point in time this is an example), is actually 10000x higher than 5-B and is like 5-A or low 4-C because "in theory". This is how we treat any attack like this without actual relevant backing information, it's just danmaku.
I'm not commenting on it further here, we can deal with that in the upcoming threat.

Okay, I'm okay with that. I thought these were equivalent situations.

 

[Epyriel]

We would divide it by 10000 actually, we divide destruction calcs by the amount of attacks required to do so.

This only makes sense if he launched 10,000 attacks one after the other to achieve that.

If you can blow up a star on a whim, only having them listed as 10,000 times weaker than the DC they can achieve seems disingenuous.

For example Lord Boros’ ship can launch a multitude of projectiles simultaneously or individually, but we still include the AP of a full barrage.

 

[Chariot190]

This only makes sense if he launched 10,000 attacks one after the other to achieve that.

If you can blow up a star on a whim, only having them listed as 10,000 times weaker than the DC they can achieve seems disingenuous.

Rule is rules.
And it isn't, if an Apache helicopter launches 8 missile payloads with 0.025t warheads at the exact same time from its multiple launchers simultaneously to completely obliterate a building which, if calced, would obtain about 0.2~ tons of TNT. It would still only be 0.025t.
The individual attacks don't get stronger, the individual energy of each attack doesn't get higher, it is simply multiple attacks leading to a more destructive end result, but the attacks that did so do not change values, the hellfire missiles and apache still only 0.025t.

It would be disingenuous to rate every single energy value of like this

or

or

or

or even

as a single combined AP value. We don't do it because it's wrong.

For example Lord Boros’ ship can launch a multitude of projectiles simultaneously or individually, but we still include the AP of a full barrage.

Pretty sure that's because of Tatsumaki stopping them all at once, not the ship firing them all at once. But we actually shouldn't, and the profile even seems a bit aware of that fact by noting how strong a single attack is too. Though two wrongs wouldn't make a right here. Regardless, I said what was needed to be said for now.

 

[Epyriel]

Rule is rules.
And it isn't, if an Apache helicopter launches 8 missile payloads with 0.025t warheads at the exact same time from its multiple launchers simultaneously to completely obliterate a building which, if calced, would obtain about 0.2~ tons of TNT. It would still only be 0.025t.
The individual attacks don't get stronger, the individual energy of each attack doesn't get higher, it is simply multiple attacks leading to a more destructive end result, but the attacks that did so do not change values, the hellfire missiles and apache still only 0.025t.

It would be disingenuous to rate every single energy value of like this

or

or

or

or even

as a single combined AP value. We don't do it because it's wrong.

Why exactly is that wrong? Where exactly is this rule that bans barrages from including a total value?

If Sukuna destroys a certain section of a city with a use of Shrine, or Fern blows up a certain section of forest with a simultaneous barrage, why exactly is it wrong to include what they are actually capable of?

I thought the entire point of this wiki was to give people a representative understanding of a character’s power.

Listing star busters as planet level, or town levellers as wall level, simply because the means by which they execute their attack is a composite barrage instead of a more arbitrarily synchronous event seems to serve nothing but to try to give people the wrong impression.

Sure if you want to be super transparent you can list both the AP of individual projectiles and composite attacks if you want optimum accuracy, but if you take a look at someone destroying a star with 10,000 closely knit attacks launched in sync at once, and only list their AP as 1/10,000th of that, how exactly are you being more faithful to what is actually being demonstrated? People would look at that profile and think the character wouldn’t be able to even scratch someone who is Star level, even if they absolutely could.

Pretty sure that's because of Tatsumaki stopping them all at once, not the ship firing them all at once.

It is listed on the ship’s profile.

But we actually shouldn't, and the profile even seems a bit aware of that fact by noting how strong a single attack is too. Though two wrongs wouldn't make a right here. Regardless, I said what was needed to be said for now.

So far you have done the same and referenced existing profiles as your justification.

 

[Chariot190]

Why exactly is that wrong? Where exactly is this rule that bans barrages from including a total value?

The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack. - Attack Potency.

Not replying to the rest, there's no need.

People would look at that profile and think the character wouldn’t be able to even scratch someone who is Star level, even if they absolutely could.

They actually wouldn't, that isn't how transfer of energy and energy accumulation works. It's why if someone throws a fistful of sand at your face you don't explode even though if you combined every single value per grain linearly you'd need to be hospitalized.

 

[Epyriel]

The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack. - Attack Potency.

Not replying to the rest, there's no need.

I noticed you didn’t provide the actual context for that:

Also, kindly remember that Attack Potency is the measure of Destructive Capacity of an attack, and as such, is measured via its energy damage equivalent. Hence, characters that destroy mountains or islands are not automatically mountain or island level, especially if they are small. The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack.

Drawing a distinction between the energy output of an attack vs its area of effect is not the same as saying barrages are banned from being listed.

 

[Da3ggman]

How many calc members need to agree to an option in order for it to be accepted?

 

[Epyriel]

How many calc members need to agree to an option in order for it to be accepted?

I believe the standard is 2?

Although I don’t know if the CRT rules for popular verses apply for CGM matters.

 

[Chariot190]

I noticed you didn’t provide the actual context for that:

The context is that we only rate energy values per single attack, there is no extra context. Nothing in that paragraph even contradicts it.

Drawing a distinction between the energy output of an attack vs its area of effect is not the same as saying barrages are banned from being listed.

A barrage isn't a single attack. A single attack, not 50, not 100, but a single individual attack.
But it's evident that you're going to continue despite the existing rules and actual energy laws so I suppose there'll be a joint thread to dabble on ironing out the already pre-existing rule to be more clear, not that I think we need one but shrug.
We're done here, you made your goal clear.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Love how we haven't touched on the wood. It would downgrade the calc a bit.

 

[Epyriel]

The context is that we only rate energy values per single attack, there is no extra context. Nothing in that paragraph even contradicts it.

A barrage isn't a single attack. A single attack, not 50, not 100, but a single individual attack.
But it's evident that you're going to continue despite the existing rules and actual energy laws so I suppose there'll be a joint thread to dabble on ironing out the already pre-existing rule to be more clear, not that I think we need one but shrug.
We're done here, you made your goal clear.

And what counts as a single attack? Is an explosion a single attack? What about a burst of shrapnel? What about a burst of a million pellets released at once? Or a thousand blood blades released at once?

As above, the idea that we should subdivide composite attacks to obfuscate the actual power of characters is self-defeating to the actual goals of the wiki.

 

[Epyriel]

Love how we haven't touched on the wood. It would downgrade the calc a bit.

It probably won’t change the tier, but I can update my calc to adjust for Hinoki wood for the sake of accuracy.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

And what counts as a single attack? Is an explosion a single attack? What about a burst of shrapnel? What about a burst of a million pellets released at once? Or a thousand blood blades released at once?

As above, the idea that we should subdivide composite attacks to obfuscate the actual power of characters is self-defeating to the actual goals of the wiki.

I guess we should just get rid of the Inverse Square Law. I mean what is the difference btw tanking a part of the explosion and standing at the epicenter.

 

[Epyriel]

I guess we should just get rid of the Inverse Square Law. I mean what is the difference btw tanking a part of the explosion and standing at the epicenter.

Huh? This is about the scale of Gyutaro’s attack, not Tengen’s durability.

And for the record, I’ve already prepared a durability calc for Tengen using the inverse square law.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Huh? This is about the scale of Gyutaro’s attack, not Tengen’s durability.

And for the record, I’ve already prepared a durability calc for Tengen using the inverse square law.

But is an explosion 1 flame or a 1000 flames, and what does it matter since they were all released at the same time?

 

[Epyriel]

But is an explosion 1 flame or a 1000 flames,

The flames aren’t the destructive force behind an explosion. It is the countless air molecules being accelerated rapidly in all directions, and thousands of pieces of shrapnel.

and what does it matter since they were all released at the same time?

Exactly my point.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

The flames aren’t the destructive force behind an explosion. It is the countless air molecules being accelerated rapidly in all directions, and thousands of pieces of shrapnel.


Exactly my point.

Alright Epy, I'm sorry I need to do the test- How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast in the morning?

 

[Epyriel]

Alright Epy, I'm sorry I need to do the test- How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast in the morning?

?
Hungry I suppose.

Is there a point to this?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

?
Hungry I suppose.

Is there a point to this?

Oh thank god. Alright, I'll circle back on point later. I'm busy rn.

 

[NikHelton]

Love how we haven't touched on the wood. It would downgrade the calc a bit.

Do you suggest using other wood values?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Do you suggest using other wood values?

Hinoki Wood was what was decided on. Slightly less, like 6 J/cc

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

It would be disingenuous to rate every single energy value of like this

To be all fair, the anime makes a mess with the feat, but it's basically three tornados in the manga, and not countless danmaku-like projectles, so it would need to divide just by three in theory

And why did we accepted the anime tho

 

[Epyriel]

This is supposed to be a simple calc replacement using the same assumptions as the previous calc based on accepted threads.

I know people are angry about DS being upgraded recently, but could we please not derail by re-treading every related accepted thread of the last two years? This is not the place for it.
This was a proposed downgrade anyways.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

This is supposed to be a simple calc replacement using the same assumptions as the previous calc based on accepted threads.

I know people are angry about DS being upgraded recently, but could we please not derail by re-treading every related accepted thread of the last two years? This is not the place for it.
This was a proposed downgrade anyways.

Lets bury the whole whether or not the calc should be divided or not, because that is another whole ass discussion. Just make the switch to Himono Wood which is 6.3 to 6.7 MPa (MPa = J/cc).

 

[NikHelton]

This is supposed to be a simple calc replacement using the same assumptions as the previous calc based on accepted threads.

I know people are angry about DS being upgraded recently, but could we please not derail by re-treading every related accepted thread of the last two years? This is not the place for it.
This was a proposed downgrade anyways.

Wait, regarding your calculation of 8 Kilotons. Using the shape of the spherical cap, you found the mass of the substance as if everything within a radius of 260 meters was flooded with blood?

 

[Epyriel]

Wait, regarding your calculation of 8 Kilotons. Using the shape of the spherical cap, you found the mass of the substance as if everything within a radius of 260 meters was flooded with blood?

I wasn’t calculating mass, I was purely calculating the portion of the attack that missed the district completely.

To do this I assumed there was an equal distribution of blood blades launched in every radial direction in a hemisphere from Gyutaro (likely a lowball since the last seconds of the shot seem to show a greater quantity of blades going upwards as opposed to sideways) and so I used a volume projection to calculate the ratio between the portion that hit the district and the portion that missed completely.

You can think of this as essentially calculating what if the entire area was filled with the same density of buildings as the actual district on the ground. Like if a blood blade shot straight up at a 90 degree angle from the ground, how far would it have travelled if it ran into the same quantity of building as those launched parallel to the ground? To this end, using the earlier assumption about the equal distribution of blood blades, I assumed it would travel the same 260m in all directions before petering out, forming a hemisphere with a radius of 260m.

Since part of this hemisphere is already accounted for from the original cylindrical volume calculated in FelpeXDopZ’s calc, I calculated only the spherical cap on top not covered there to avoid double counting.

I then ratio-ed the total volume (the cylindrical cap + the original cylinder) with that same original volume to find the factor of the total volume in contrast to just the cylindrical volume. We can then multiply the original partial yield to this factor to find the total yield of the attack.

 

[NikHelton]

I wasn’t calculating mass, I was purely calculating the portion of the attack that missed the district completely.

To do this I assumed there was an equal distribution of blood blades launched in every radial direction in a hemisphere from Gyutaro (likely a lowball since the last seconds of the shot seem to show a greater quantity of blades going upwards as opposed to sideways) and so I used a volume projection to calculate the ratio between the portion that hit the district and the portion that missed completely.

You can think of this as essentially calculating what if the entire area was filled with the same density of buildings as the actual district on the ground. Like if a blood blade shot straight up at a 90 degree angle from the ground, how far would it have travelled if it ran into the same quantity of building as those launched parallel to the ground? To this end, using the earlier assumption about the equal distribution of blood blades, I assumed it would travel the same 260m in all directions before petering out, forming a hemisphere with a radius of 260m.

Since part of this hemisphere is already accounted for from the original cylindrical volume calculated in FelpeXDopZ’s calc, I calculated only the spherical cap on top not covered there to avoid double counting.

I then ratio-ed the total volume (the cylindrical cap + the original cylinder) with that same original volume to find the factor of the total volume in contrast to just the cylindrical volume. We can then multiply the original partial yield to this factor to find the total yield of the attack.

But not all the space was covered with blades. Shouldn't we increase this with the proportions of the cavity?