Higher-Dimensional Physiology and Hax(REDUX )

[Ego]

5D creation or space time I guess, better then nothing

That's as bad as nothing in this tier

 

[CosmicWreck]

From a purely AP standpoint Arceus is fine but hax has always been something contextual and the normal forms of attacks become useless at these level of ratings anyway. I disagree with the idea of Arceus's hax being scaled to levels of power they've never been shown to reach.

 

[Ego]

Actually NVM I'm still on 5D hax

 

[StrymULTRA]

From a purely AP standpoint Arceus is fine but hax has always been something contextual and the normal forms of attacks become useless at these level of ratings anyway. I disagree with the idea of Arceus's hax being scaled to levels of power they've never been shown to reach.

Dude, it's not that Avatar powers are something given to True Form, is the avatars who get the limited version of the True Form powers lmao.

 

[Thelastmlg]

saying true arceus is featless in the hax apartment is wrong, it literally created everything and gave its avatars its powers.

we already have low 1-C creation, reality warping, omnipresence, cosmic awareness, conceptual manipulation and power bestowal so it should have the same ones for himself, at this point i don't see why the rest would be 4D

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is the last time I repeat this in case someone didn't read my post.

If Arceus had a Low 1-C form which is just the result of a boost from the 2-A Avatar then ok. But here is the 2-A version which is a "baby version" of the True Form, so the hax should scale to 5D for the same reason why the 2-A stats are a mere fragment of the Low 1-C realm, the hax are as well just a tiny piece of the full thing.

 

[CosmicWreck]

(Answered this down below)

we already have low 1-C creation, reality warping, omnipresence, cosmic awareness, conceptual manipulation

This is true, none of which are used competitively though.

and power bestowal

Non-combative and lower D

so it should have the same ones for himself, at this point i don't see why the rest would be 4D

Because they weren't shown at that level?

Dude, it's not that Avatar powers are something given to True Form, is the avatars who get the limited version of the True Form powers lmao.

This is the last time I repeat this in case someone didn't read my post.

If Arceus had a Low 1-C form which is just the result of a boost from the 2-A Avatar then ok. But here is the 2-A version which is a "baby version" of the True Form, so the hax should scale to 5D for the same reason why the 2-A stats are a mere fragment of the Low 1-C realm, the hax are as well just a tiny piece of the full thing.

Blowing fire or using psychic abilities to toss your opponent around is fine, but hax is not necessarily AP related.

You're basically saying True form Arceus can, for example, seal away a similarly powerful entity to him when there's no evidence of this being the case. I disagree, it sounds like NLF.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Blowing fire or using psychic abilities to toss your opponent around is fine, but hax is not necessarily AP related.

You're basically saying True form Arceus can, for example, seal away a similarly powerful entity to him when there's no evidence of this being the case. I disagree, it sounds like NLF.

It's not NLF when is just baseline 5D. It was just Giratina being sealed from 5D hax, why should have Arceus use the full extent to it to the whole realm it embodies? It sounds extremely nit-picking and assumes limits for no reason at all. This wiki wants to be safe, but there's a line between safe ends and total nonsense for the sake of downplay.

 

[CosmicWreck]

It's not NLF when is just baseline 5D. It was just Giratina being sealed from 5D hax, why should have Arceus use the full extent to it to the whole realm it embodies?

Which is it? Does Arceus use 5D hax or did Arceus not use the full extent of his power to seal the realm away?

It sounds extremely nit-picking and assumes limits for no reason at all. This wiki wants to be safe, but there's a line between safe ends and total nonsense for the sake of downplay.

There's also a line between desiring higher ends for feats and literally running away with your own assumptions to make a feat much bigger than it actually is.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which is it? Does Arceus use 5D hax or did Arceus not use the full extent of his power to seal the realm away?

Latter. Considering that it literally embodies a realm infinitely bigger than the multiverse, why the hell should it use the full extent to seal a mere 4D realm?

There's also a line between desiring higher ends for feats and literally running away with your own assumptions to make a feat much bigger than it actually is.

You know that limiting the true form hax to what avatars did is nonsense right? Arceus' plates are the reason why the Creation Trio has Concept Hax, and said plates are not even an infinitesimal of the True Form existence. You're assuming that enough plates can outwit the True Form haxwise? Lol.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Latter. Considering that it literally embodies a realm infinitely bigger than the multiverse, why the hell should it use the full extent to seal a mere 4D realm?

Convenient and literally head canon.

You know that limiting the true form hax to what avatars did is nonsense right? Arceus' plates are the reason why the Creation Trio has Concept Hax, and said plates are not even an infinitesimal of the True Form existence. You're assuming that enough plates can outwit the True Form haxwise? Lol.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm objectively viewing the feats that are presented to me to find the upper and lower limits of the feats. Also, I literally never compared him to Avatar Arceus. Why should I assume that a more powerful version of a character with the same abilities lose? Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Breakdown]

Not having showings ≠ not having feats.

Arceus is a living, sentient 5D multiverse and every power is just part of its being. It makes no sense whatsoever to not scale every ability to his to his full power. That requires the nonsensical assumption that a 5D multiverse was created by the use of 4D power.

Put 2 and 2 together, people. It's not that hard, trust me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Convenient and literally head canon.

When Arceus embodies a whole Low 1-C realm then not really. It's not like Mashymre who doesn't embody anything and has just created a 2-A multiverse, seeing it as fictional. Arceus has also created and embodies a Low 1-C realm, which is something like Truth of The Universe or Enerjack do.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm objectively viewing the feats that are presented to me to find the upper and lower limits of the feats. Also, I literally never compared him to Avatar Arceus. Why should I assume that a more powerful version of a character with the same abilities lose? Don't put words in my mouth.

You do when you say that it just upscales from avatars.

 

[CosmicWreck]

When Arceus embodies a whole Low 1-C realm then not really. It's not like Mashymre who doesn't embody anything and has just created a 2-A multiverse, seeing it as fictional. Arceus has also created and embodies a Low 1-C realm, which is something like Truth of The Universe or Enerjack do.

You do when you say that it just upscales from avatars.

His embodiment of a Low 1-C realm is irrelevant. Again, hax abilities are not always pertaining to AP, especially when those abilities have nothing to do with the cosmology beyond what was shown. I don't know anything about Truth, but Enerjak has fought multiple similar entities. I confidently know the limits of his abilities so I don't know why he's used as an example here.

Upscaling to avatars is the exact opposite of saying he's weaker than them. I don't know why you even brought it up.

 

[StrymULTRA]

His embodiment of a Low 1-C realm is irrelevant.

Cringe.

Again, hax abilities are not always pertaining to AP, especially when those abilities have nothing to do with the cosmology beyond what was shown.

Arceus has shown to create a Low 1-C realm in a similar way CT did with multiverse. That's enough.

I don't know anything about Truth, but Enerjak has fought multiple similar entities. I confidently know the limits of his abilities so I don't know why he's used as an example here.

Archie gets Low 1-C due to them manipulating and using Chaos Force. Arceus here gets Low 1-C from creating and embodying its own realm, which is similar.

Upscaling to avatars is the exact opposite of saying he's weaker than them. I don't know why you even brought it up.

This whole thing is born because of people saying it just upscales from the avatars, when is the whole reverse in anything.

Anyway, I made a whole rant here and called some staff members. This is becoming so circular that is disgusting.

 

[Pikaman]

Yeah, the low number of staff that have been present so far is surprising, especially considering Ant was mentioned here and the fact this really isn’t an issue that can be decided by the general membership

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, the low number of staff that have been present so far is surprising, especially considering Ant was mentioned here and the fact this really isn’t an issue that can be decided by the general membership

Pretty much this.

@Everything12 is the only one who started this whole thing.

It's not like Arceus doesn't have 5D feats besides just creating a multiverse as fiction and that's it. It has created the realm and has control over it like Giratina has on its realm and Dialga/Palkia have on their realms and multiverse. The end.

 

[Ego]

So... what's the conclusion?

 

[CosmicWreck]

Cringe.

Nice rebuttal.

Arceus has shown to create a Low 1-C realm in a similar way CT did with multiverse. That's enough.

Archie gets Low 1-C due to them manipulating and using Chaos Force. Arceus here gets Low 1-C from creating and embodying its own realm, which is similar.

I literally described why it's not similar at all.

This whole thing is born because of people saying it just upscales from the avatars, when is the whole reverse in anything.

Anyway, I made a whole rant here and called some staff members. This is becoming so circular that is disgusting.

I'm fine to wait.

@Everything12 is the only one who started this whole thing.

It's not like Arceus doesn't have 5D feats besides just creating a multiverse as fiction and that's it. It has created the realm and has control over it like Giratina has on its realm and Dialga/Palkia have on their realms and multiverse. The end.

Context is important, in everything versus battles and profiling, first of all.

Second of all, so what if he pointed it out? It's not like anyone had to agree with him. Seriously I don't understand why you suddenly decided to start pointing fingers at the man who decided to raise a concern in a versus battle thread. OMG leave the man alone.

Finally, don't ping staff members.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I literally described why it's not similar at all.

You literally were against Arceus being Low 1-C in the 1st place. I don't see why these arguments weren't out of spite. Especially when embodying a cosmology = destroying it here.

Context is important, in everything versus battles and profiling, first of all.

Second of all, so what if he pointed it out? It's not like anyone had to agree with him. Seriously I don't understand why you suddenly decided to start pointing fingers at the man who decided to raise a concern in a versus battle thread. OMG leave the man alone.

Finally, don't ping staff members.

Because is dumb. Ez.

 

[Pikaman]

So... what's the conclusion?

The conclusion is that we need a substantial amount of staff input since this is a major interpretation on how abilities work in regards to high tiers and that all we’re really doing now is making our points and waiting for Ant to notice this thread and ping staff and/or staff find the thread on their own.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

This is a question that is asking about Higher-Dimensional Existence and how it relates to Hax potency, having some more staff here who can answer this would be helpful.

@QuasiYuri @Elizhaa @Pain_to12

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Ego]

Nice rebuttal.

I literally described why it's not similar at all.

I'm fine to wait.

Context is important, in everything versus battles and profiling, first of all.

Second of all, so what if he pointed it out? It's not like anyone had to agree with him. Seriously I don't understand why you suddenly decided to start pointing fingers at the man who decided to raise a concern in a versus battle thread. OMG leave the man alone.

Finally, don't ping staff members.

WTF on the last one...

 

[Pikaman]

@QuasiYuri @Elizhaa @Pain_to12

Would you be willing to help out here please?

WOOOOOOOO THAT’S WHAT WE’VE BEEN WAITING FOR

 

[Sniper670]

Tbh i propose Arceus has 5D negation. He can interact and affect 5D with his 4D powers

 

[Pikaman]

Tbh i propose Arceus has 5D negation. He can interact and affect 5D with his 4D powers

This is haha funny but also raises a good point about how ridiculous the proposition against 5D hax is

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Hey guys I am physically 5D and I am the reason why this 5D realm exists, other my 4D multiverse doing everything it can thanks to me and a portion of my power, but I can't affect anything beyond 4D because 5D stuffs are too much for me despite I am the reason why a 5D realm exist and am said realm itself!"

See how ridiculous this sounds?

 

[Sniper670]

I created and embody a 5D ream but let me assure you, my powers don't work here. I'm sure of it.

 

[CosmicWreck]

You literally were against Arceus being Low 1-C in the 1st place. I don't see why these arguments weren't out of spite. Especially when embodying a cosmology = destroying it here.

First of all, not only does that have literally zero bearing on literally anything I said here....

I mean, don't get wrong. I think Low 1-C Arceus is fine. I just find the Hoopa argument to be particularly irrelevant.

...you are completely wrong. I thought you guys had a strong argument and felt annoyed that you kept using reasonings that were not only highly questionable but completely irrelevant.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So Arceus in the True Form has created anything including its own realm which contains the multiverse as a mere fraction of it.

"Yes"

And Arceus also embodies said realm, thus can manipulate it like Giratina does with the multiverse and distortion world, given those were created in a similar manner

"Yes"

All the verse, including its avatars and True Forms of Creation Trio are only fragments of the true form then, and if they can do what they do, is only because True Form gave to them a fraction of its power

"Yeah this makes sense"

So this means that as the 2-A AP is just a fraction of Arceus' 5D power, same is with the hax, whose 4D potency is just a fraction of the full 5D one"

"No because Arceus best feats were only in 4D and nothing says that it can affect any 5D thing"

 

[CosmicWreck]

So Arceus in the True Form has created anything including its own realm which contains the multiverse as a mere fraction of it.

"Yes"

And Arceus also embodies said realm, thus can manipulate it like Giratina does with the multiverse and distortion world, given those were created in a similar manner

"Yes"

All the verse, including its avatars and True Forms of Creation Trio are only fragments of the true form then, and if they can do what they do, is only because True Form gave to them a fraction of its power

"Yeah this makes sense"

So this means that as the 2-A AP is just a fraction of Arceus' 5D power, same is with the hax, whose 4D potency is just a fraction of the full 5D one"

"No because Arceus best feats were only in 4D and nothing says that it can affect any 5D thing"

Literally never said that but okay. I'm just going to wait for other people to weigh in on this. I've said everything I wanted to say on the topic.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not sure what is being proposed here, but okay.

 

[Pikaman]

If you have Higher-Dimensional Existence, do we automatically assume your abilities also scale to your higher-dimensionality?

Nothing proposed, a question, and then whether Arceus, which is this concept in reverse, would follow the same or different/unique logic

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not sure what is being proposed here, but okay.

Tldr is about if Arceus in True Form should have 5D potent haxes like Creation Trio have 4D potent haxes.

Ok so, this whole "but True Form Arceus just upscales from the Avatar so all its hax is just 4D" is honestly just stupid and ignores a lot of context.

I'll speak like this because people tend to over-simplify and forget things about Arceus.

"Arceus doesn't have any Low 1-C feat itself besides its existence, so its hax extend to only its 4D multiverse."

This assumes that Arceus just exists in a plane beyond the multiverse and has created just said 4D multiverse, in a similar way Mashymre did. Issue here is that Arceus itself, unlike Mashymre, didn't just create the multiverse and perceives it as insignificant, but exists AS THE WHOLE PLANE WHERE THE MULTIVERSE IS SUCH. Arceus literally exists as a Low 1-C structure where the Multiverse is just a mere fraction of it, and gets the stuff from said realm. This isn't a thing like Mashymre who can use Fairy Tail verse powers just there, as is just the result of his writing, but something like Truth of The Universe, who embodies the whole Real World and can use haxes this powerful because it is the whole cosmology, affecting whatever being is in it like The Player or Dark Dragon. Like any single character that embodies a comsology can use its hax that strong as they are said cosmology, why Arceus shouldn't? It has created its own realm like Creation Trio has created the multiverse, and like they scale to such in hax, True Form Arceus should, given that they can manipulate and sustain the multiverse in the same way Arceus does with its own Low 1-C realm, given that Arceus IS THE WHOLE POKEMON REALITY ITSELF.

"It still has nothing besides upscaling from its avatars."

It's the opposite, given the avatars receive their powers to a limited scale as they are just a piece of the true form. Just like their AP is just 4D as they don't scale to the True Form's AP given the lack of feats on such level, because, again, said their AP is not the full thing, the hax should too for the same reason. This is not Infinite Zamasu who becomes 4D, but all his hax remain 3D because he has nothing suggesting his powers besides AP got upgraded, this is the opposite as IS THE AVATARS WHO GOT THEIR STUFF FROM THE TRUE FORM ON A LIMITED WAY. Like their AP/Hax is limited to 2-A as is not comparable to the True Form in feats, True Form should upscale to 5D in both AP and Hax, given is the avatars who get a limited version of the True Form's power, and not the other way around. Because again, Arceus is not like Mashymre. Is like ToTU here, and has 5D feats of creation/sustenance like Creation Trio does with the 2-A multiverse.

I hope this nonsense ends here ngl.

I made these points.

 

[Pikaman]

Tldr is about if Arceus in True Form should have 5D potent haxes like Creation Trio have 4D potent haxes.

Tbf this is about more than just Arceus, it’s why the question was asked but this applies standards that will affect plenty of existing/potential characters and verses

 

[Everything12]

To sum it up very basically, does an entity being 5D or the like mean that all it's hax is automatically 5D? Including hax it gains from upscaling or as a species specific trait if they don't have any evidence of working on 5D level.

Such as Arceus gaining every single Pokémon ability because it's the origin of those ability and everything is an aspect of it? Are those abilities automatically assumed to be 5D despite never being used by Arceus or on another 5D entity, or are they just the same level as they are with the 3D/4D Pokémon who they originate from.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

or are they just the same level as they are with the 3D/4D Pokémon who they originate from.

But…this is literally part of the problem.

They don’t originate from 3-D or 4-D Pokémon at all. They originate from the 5-D True Arceus who SHARED these powers to all Pokémon in the multiverse.

Arguing the powers came from the Pokémon first instead of Arceus is flat out misinformation and completely disregards the actual lore.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I want everyone to read what I posted earlier btw

>We should not assume the potency of hax scales to one's physical dimensionality if we haven't been proven it can. If the being has only shown hax on lower beings, it already puts into question whether this would be useable against bengs on their level.

Essentially, assuming that all abilities of a character MUST be on part with their physicality is an assumption with no real basis.

See, I only partially agree with this, because Arceus's case doesn't exactly fit with what this note is saying here. For characters who receive NEW forms, that have never been seen before? Absolutely fine to not assume the hax scales.

But that is exactly part of the problem here. Arceus's 5-D form isn't a new form. It's his true form that's always been a thing. The context is saying Arceus's true form has always been 5-D by accepting it as Low 1-C. Everything in the Pokemon Cosmology originates from True Arceus, that includes all Pokemon powers. That is saying that these powers originally were 5-D, because they are originally coming from a 5-D source. Not the other way around.

The next quote further ties into this argument:

I'm with "No. It shouldn't". We have not just many Higher D characters whichs abilities come from a weaker version of themself, but some even inherit abilities from other characters or general species properties for various reasons.

That those get infinitely better just due to the characters body changing its dimensionality is not a given to me.

Arceus's case is completely in reverse here. His powers aren't coming from his avatars and then being applied to the true being. His powers aren't being inherited from Pokemon and being applied to the true being.

His powers are coming from the true being and being applied to the avatars, and the pokemon in the multiverse. His 5-D form doesnt come from just taking an avatar and changing it's dimensionality, his 5-D self is the original true being that always existed before everything else did. The avatars didn't come first, the 5-D original self did.

Because this upgrade is happening in reverse of what this standard normally applies to, the standard should not apply to Arceus.

 

[PrinceofPein]

To sum it up very basically, does an entity being 5D or the like mean that all it's hax is automatically 5D? Including hax it gains from upscaling or as a species specific trait if they don't have any evidence of working on 5D level.

Should be a case by case basis and not a one size fits all, but if a character who upscales has not been shown to have the potency of what he upscales to then I see no reason why the hax should be assumed to upscale.
cases like this as an example - a character becoming 5D from 4D and then he could use let’s say Reality warping and affect the new 5D space he occupies, such character can be assumed that all his other hax also had an increase in potency even though those hax have not been used.

But a character who just had an increase and was not shown to use the hax to affect something of equal dimensionality to him cannot be claimed to have an increase in potency even though it sounds logical to do so

Such as Arceus gaining every single Pokémon ability because it's the origin of those ability and everything is an aspect of it? Are those abilities automatically assumed to be 5D despite never being used by Arceus or on another 5D entity, or are they just the same level as they are with the 3D/4D Pokémon who they originate from.

I would say scale them to the rate at which they were used
Your explanation above fits this perfectly
A writer can write a story and put all sort of abilities in the story but he himself won’t have such abilities in his own reality

 

[Pikaman]

A writer can write a story and put all sort of abilities in the story but he himself won’t have such abilities in his own reality

False equivalence, we’re not debating if Arceus has these powers, rather the dimensionality of these powers, which this doesn’t answer