Hunter x Hunter - Downgrading Ryu and Ko

[TioKill]

Then what do you propose I do?
I'm only doing this to show how small physical might plays in a Nen attack.
After 8-B and above it becomes such a small difference to the multipliers, so instead of a 10x we get a 9.99x multiplier for most characters which doesn't really affect anything.

I agree that we shouldn't apply the multiplier to weak Nen users as It would somewhat affect them if the 24x increase is to be believed but that is all it would apply to. The 9-A's who know Ko (Barely anyone) would be the only profiles affected

Glad we can agree on this

I really don't know how to explain this any other way to you man but I will try my best
2 Nen users have 100 aura
1 Enhancer and 1 Emitter and both our sufficiently trained to use there type to it's max potential (100% and 80% respectively)
The Enhancer user Ko and his power becomes 1000
The Emitter user Ko and his power becomes 800
The Emitter is indeed 20% weaker but the amount that he can Enhance, 80 power (80% of the Enhancers) is still increased by 10x to 800 (10x it's original amount).

That results in 8/10th of the original power.

You're literally just alternating the order of operations and thinking it changes the result, and it's really getting annoying.


"Instead of
100×10×0.8
it's
100×0.8×10
SEE, IT'S STILL A 10X MULTIPLIER, REEE"

It's baffling how you don't see this. Yes, if you just apply the 80% deficit before multiplying it, technically it's still a 10 times multiplier, but it's literally semantics - the end result will still be a power output 8/10th of a 100% efficient Ko (which is the only version that's 10x Power). It's literally third grade math, I'm not even joking with you.
"The order of factors does not change the product"

Ko is purely Aura based increase and there is zero evidence it is not a 10x increase for all types. Biscuit treats it as a universal constant for all types.
She explains it as a 10x increase regardless of type. If it was affected by type she would have said something.
Because she doesn't we have no reason to believe it doesn't apply to all types.

Biscuit says it costs 10x aura in all types. Not that it multiplies POWER by 10, that never came out of her mouth.

As established, cost /=/ power output.

I do have a reason to believe the output is weaker, you literally gave me the reasoning.

 

[TioKill]

I think @Shmeatywerbenmanjenson is either stonewalling this, or being genuinely ignorant on basic concepts. Either way, I'll not extend this further.

 

[TioKill]

What

It was for 1 year, then extended to a perma-ban at the user's request. Let's not get off-topic here though.

Altered the OP. Need an input

 

[Damage3245]

I'll read through the OP tomorrow (and any further arguments on here), but just for clarification, which pages presently make use of the multipliers?

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

That results in 8/10th of the original power.

You're literally just alternating the order of operations and thinking it changes the result, and it's really getting annoying.


"Instead of
100×10×0.8
it's
100×0.8×10
SEE, IT'S STILL A 10X MULTIPLIER, REEE"

It's baffling how you don't see this. Yes, if you just apply the 80% deficit before multiplying it, technically it's still a 10 times multiplier, but it's literally semantics - the end result will still be a power output 8/10th of a 100% efficient Ko (which is the only version that's 10x Power). It's literally third grade math, I'm not even joking with you.
"The order of factors does not change the product"

I'm really growing tired of just not understanding what I'm saying so I'm just going to let other people make there own decisions.

Biscuit says it costs 10x aura in all types. Not that it multiplies POWER by 10, that never came out of her mouth.

As established, cost /=/ power output.

I do have a reason to believe the output is weaker, you literally gave me the reasoning.

Where are you getting these statements? She never said anything about it costing anything. Ko is simply Ten + Ren + Gyo + Zetsu, all it is doing is moving your aura to a different spot on your body. You have absolutely ZERO evidence to back up the claim that Ko is not a 10x increase for every aura type. All your doing is saying that since efficiencies exist it must apply to Ko as well. This has to do with Aura Manipulation not NEN enhancement and until you can prove that Types come into effect with Ko I will disregard your arguments.

 

[AguilaR202]

Nen efficiency doesn’t really conflict with focusing a given amount of aura to be 10x greater than normal unless this was stated. It just means that the baseline 10% aura value is weaker than a more proficient enhancer using the same 10%.

And honestly the whole equation argument does fall apart because as superhuman as any character might be without nen there is clear intention to portray nen a massive amp to base stats to where they’re practically insignificant.

like, you’re not going to find a nenless character doing anything close to a 1000th of what he could do with nen.

 

[Gitagon]

This is a two-part downgrade thread where I intent to downgrade both the Nen multiplier of Ryu and Ko, as well as the speed of the verse. The first part will be dealing with the multipliers through Ryu and Ko specifically.

---

Let's start with the easy part, explaining why we currently believe the Ryu/Ko techniques even multiply one's strength in the first place is based around this statement from Bisky.

Ryu is stated to shift the amount of aura in a portion of your body, so it goes along with this line as welll.

---

I plan on adjusting the Multipliers to take into account the efficiency of each Nen Type, after all, Ryu and Ko are reinforcement techniques, and thus only Enhancers can use the 100% efficiency.

Let's focus on the matter at hand, right?

---

So, as @Shmeatywerbenmanjenson accidentally helped me realize is that, Nen efficiency does play a factor in how efficienct your Ko and Ryu is. Aka, only Enhancers have access to the 10 times multiplier. Funny.

We need to adapt their profiles to this chart:

Emmiters and Transmuters like Knuckle and Killua respectively would only have an efficiency of 80%, aka, a 8 times multiplier with Ko.

Manipulators and Conjurers like Zushi and Kurapika respectively would only have an efficiency of 60%, aka, a 6 times multiplier with Ko.

It says specialists have an efficiency of 40%, but I don't know if it has ever been confirmed to be the case, and Kurapika's ability seems to outright refute that. Pitou is a specialist but they haven't shown the capability of using Ryu or Ko.


Furthermore, the use of Ko leaves the body - originally several dozen times weaker than their nen strength - totally unguarded. So we need to figure out if we should divide their durability by 24, or dowscale them. But either way, they should get "lower in most of their body while using Ryu, drastically lower while using Ko"

There is so much wrong with this if you are up to date with HxH. First Knuckle isn't even an Emitter in canon. This was revealed just last week alongside a deeper breakdown of the Nen chart so even this 100% 80% 60% stuff has to be rethought since it is just the basics.

Stuff like leaning towards one side exist and some characters are pure 1 category while others are located somewhere between 2 categories and this can change with time as well.

 

[Gitagon]

Let's focus on the matter at hand, right?

---

So, as @Shmeatywerbenmanjenson accidentally helped me realize is that, Nen efficiency does play a factor in how efficienct your Ko and Ryu is. Aka, only Enhancers have access to the 10 times multiplier. Funny.

We need to adapt their profiles to this chart:

Emmiters and Transmuters like Knuckle and Killua respectively would only have an efficiency of 80%, aka, a 8 times multiplier with Ko.

Manipulators and Conjurers like Zushi and Kurapika respectively would only have an efficiency of 60%, aka, a 6 times multiplier with Ko.

It says specialists have an efficiency of 40%, but I don't know if it has ever been confirmed to be the case, and Kurapika's ability seems to outright refute that. Pitou is a specialist but they haven't shown the capability of using Ryu or Ko.


Furthermore, the use of Ko leaves the body - originally several dozen times weaker than their nen strength - totally unguarded. So we need to figure out if we should divide their durability by 24, or dowscale them. But either way, they should get "lower in most of their body while using Ryu, drastically lower while using Ko"

Has no one here actually read or at least looked at Togashi's Nen chart that was released for his art exhibition last week?

Knuckle is NOT an Emitter. That's just non-canon data books and fanfiction.

There's also Nen leanings so a character can be located somewhere between 2 categories. Killua is located dead center between Enhancer and Transmuter. The percentages stuff won't apply the same way for him.

Spoiler: Nen Chart

 

[Damage3245]

Has no one here actually read or at least looked at Togashi's Nen chart that was released for his art exhibition last week?

Knuckle is NOT an Emitter. That's just non-canon data books and fanfiction.

You can't expect everyone to be completely up to date on information that has been revealed outside of the manga itself.

 

[TioKill]

I'll read through the OP tomorrow (and any further arguments on here), but just for clarification, which pages presently make use of the multipliers?

Enhancers (Keep the 10x multiplier)

• Gon Freecs
• Uvogin
• Phinks
• Nobunaga
• Scarlet Eyes Kurapika
• Netero

Transmuters and Emitters (80% efficiency, 8x multiplier)

• Leorio
• Killua Zoldyck
• Feitan

Conjurers and Manipulators (60% efficiency, 6x multiplier)

• Base Kurapika
• Knuckle
• Zazan
• Cheetu
• Welfin
• Leol

Uhm, actually listing all profiles seem tedious, most profiles use Ryu and Ko.

 

[TioKill]

Has no one here actually read or at least looked at Togashi's Nen chart that was released for his art exhibition last week?

Knuckle is NOT an Emitter. That's just non-canon data books and fanfiction.

There's also Nen leanings so a character can be located somewhere between 2 categories. Killua is located dead center between Enhancer and Transmuter. The percentages stuff won't apply the same way for him.

Spoiler: Nen Chart

Well, I had no idea. Yes I'm up to date with the manga, but it's not really the same as being up to date with Togashi's sudden reveals outside of the manga now, is it?

Also, by looking at this, it wouldn't really change efficiency for types, just that some closer to enhancement would keep their 10 multiplier. For those away from Enhancement, virtually nothing changes.

 

[Gitagon]

Updated Nen chart.

Everything isn't as black and white as we once thought. The 60% 80% 100% stuff seems like it would only apply to people who are purely 1 category as in the chart.

But you can see characters who are dead center between 2 categories and others somewhere along the way.

 

[TioKill]

Updated Nen chart.

Everything isn't as black and white as we once thought. The 60% 80% 100% stuff seems like it would only apply to people who are purely 1 category as in the chart.

But you can see characters who are dead center between 2 categories and others somewhere along the way.

Closer to Enhancement would maintain 100% efficiency.

Beyond Transmuters and Emitters would be 80% or less

Beyond Conjurers and Manipulators would be 60% or less.


As I said, it doesn't change much, thankfully Togashi already pointed out which characters are close to enhancement.

 

[TioKill]

You can't expect everyone to be completely up to date on information that has been revealed outside of the manga itself.

Bump.

 

[Damage3245]

Not 100% sure tbh. I'm more neutral on this now.

 

[TioKill]

Ah, piss. Well, I don't think I can particularly convince anyone else to interact with this thread. I give up. This can be closed.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Ah, piss. Well, I don't think I can particularly convince anyone else to interact with this thread. I give up. This can be closed.

TBH I don't think anyone wants to interact because of how complex the stuff were talking about sounds. No one is gonna come in this thread and immediately understand the entire Nen powersytem.

 

[Damage3245]

Even if the mutliplier isn't removed in general, aren't there some characters using the multiplier currently that shouldn't?

Like Cheetu for example.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Even if the mutliplier isn't removed in general, aren't there some characters using the multiplier currently that shouldn't?

Like Cheetu for example.

Correct, Chimera ants have never shown the ability to use Advanced Nen techniques. The Royal Guards don't have it so the others shouldn't have it.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, so Zazan, Cheetu and Leol need it removed from the Chimera Ants.

Some Hunters probably need it removed, but there's a lot of profiles to go through there.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Okay, so Zazan, Cheetu and Leol need it removed from the Chimera Ants.

Some Hunters probably need it removed, but there's a lot of profiles to go through there.

For Hunter's that's debatable. Tons are never explicitly stated to be able to use Ken but by there nature of being Pro Hunter's they should know it. I might make a CRT on it but it would require alot of assumptions both ways.

 

[Damage3245]

If there's no objection to removing it from the three characters I listed, I'll edit their profiles tomorrow morning.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

If there's no objection to removing it from the three characters I listed, I'll edit their profiles tomorrow morning.

No objection here. go ahead

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Has the edit been made yet?(not trying to argue or anything, just curious)

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Has the edit been made yet?(not trying to argue or anything, just curious)

Not yet apparantly

 

[Damage3245]

I've updated the three Chimera Ants.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

I've updated the three Chimera Ants.

Thank you, this can probably be closed then.