I shoot myself in a foot

[PrettyFearMachine]

I could use some of your fanfiction here, Schnee...

Yes, I am making this because I hate myself. And because the fight is pretty thematic.

Magia Record Kyoko and DMC4 Nero are used.

Speed is uequalized.

The fight takes place in front of Fortuna's Opera House.

Nero - 0

Kyoko - 0

Inconclusive - 0

 

[Schnee_One]

How high is Kyoko's Dura into mountain level?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Baseline, I figure. Not like it matters, since Nero ignores durability.

 

[The_Causality]

@Reb you usually shoot yourself in a foot

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

@Reb you usually shoot yourself in a foot

What do you mean? It's only the second time

 

[The_Causality]

What do you mean? It's only the second time

Yea It's the second time, i guess that you no longer have available foot then owo

 

[Agnaa]

How high is Kyoko's Dura into mountain level?

Yeah where tf is that rating from? There's no feat linked or mentioned on the profile.

 

[Kaltias]

It'svia upscaling because her dura (As Ophelia) is >>> the feat (Which is casual)

 

[Agnaa]

It'svia upscaling because her dura (As Ophelia) is >>> the feat (Which is casual)

Upscaling shouldn't bring people from less than halfway through a tier to the next tier. Most people were only fine with upscaling when 90-95% of the way to the next tier, not 47% of the way.

They also weren't fine with stacking multiple multipliers/one-shots on top of each other, which it seems like you were using in this CRT.

 

[Schnee_One]

She's not "less then halfway through"

Her dura scales well above previous forms that are 50 megatons passively

 

[Agnaa]

She's not "less then halfway through"

Her dura scales well above previous forms that are 50 megatons passively

The feat is less than halfway through. And as I mentioned, it was agreed in that thread that you can't stack multiple strongers on top of each other to reach the next tier. "Well above" + "A one-shot" doesn't matter, we only take into account the one-shot, precisely so we don't have characters scaling ridiculously high off of low feats and chains of one-shots.

 

[Kaltias]

Pretty sure that the final consensus was that case by case should be used. And it was deemed that being far above a casual 50 megatons was enough in that thread

It's not stacking any multiplier though, it's just a long chain of A > B > C. If it was, say, a x2 each time it'd be well above High 7-A for AoC (Who stands at the top of said scaling chain).

 

[Agnaa]

That's what I mean by 'stacking a multiplier'. Only one one-shot in a chain of one-shots was agreed to be allowed for upscaling.

Your CRT was made almost a year ago, that thread clarifying upscaling was made 2 months ago. And your older CRT seems far from the recent consensus.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I don't recall the chain being that long tbh. Not long enough to warrant a double tier jump, at least.

Also, going from baseline 7-A to High 7-A via one-shot chain between 3 characters is pretty "eeehh".

 

[Agnaa]

I don't recall the chain being that long tbh. Not long enough to warrant a double tier jump, at least.

Also, going from baseline 7-A to High 7-A via one-shot chain between 3 characters is pretty "eeehh".

10x gap from 3 characters. That's treating each one-shot as a 2.1x power increase, when people in the thread were hesitant to give it a 1.25x power increase...

 

[Schnee_One]

<Baseline 7A is 100 Megatons

<Passively 50

"The feat is less then halfway through"

?

 

[Agnaa]

<Baseline 7A is 100 Megatons

<Passively 50

"The feat is less then halfway through"

?

Baseline 7-B is 6.3 Megatons.

Top of 7-B is 100 Megatons.

100 - 6.3 = 93.7

93.7 / 2 = 46.85

46.85 + 6.3 = 53.15 <--- This is the halfway point between 7-B and 7-A.

 

[Schnee_One]

I did forget the starting point was 6.3

 

[Kaltias]

Feat that everyone scales from is passive/via being born, either way it's casual.

Madoka is stronger than Patricia.

Lapin is significantly stronger than Madoka.

Witch Lapin is much stronger than normal Lapin.

Restricted Tart is much stronger than witch Lapin.

Elisa is much stronger than restricted Tart.

Mami is equal to Tart and Candeloro is much stronger than Mami.

False Mami (Aka AoC) is much stronger than Candeloro.

Idk where the chain of three characters comes from, that's the current scaling.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I loves it when people talking about PMMM scaling instead of the actual match.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Why are you bringing up 7-B scaling? I was talking about the High 7-A rating being received via upscaling from baseline 7-A, which is not okay.

 

[Kaltias]

Because that's both the 7-B and the 7-A scaling? They aren't two separate scaling chains

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Yes, but still, going to High 7-A from baseline 7-A like that is rather dubious.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

We explicitly agreed that jumping tiers like that only happens if the characters scale ridiculously above characters in the latter half of a tier.

The "case-by-case" part is mostly reffering to small differences, not scaling characters through an entire frankly large Tier like 7-A.

There's verses with far more extensive scaling chains like Infamous that stick in their tier for this reason. PMMM shouldn't get any special treatment unless we get higher feats for the higher level characters.

As an aside, this is just a side-effect of PMMM exclusively relying on pocket reality feats to rate characters without any support for their tiering. I feel as if we should disregard them unless we have other feats in the same ballpark, which from my talks with Somebody are nonexistent.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Btw, the feat characters currently scale to is still using the explosion formula, the usage of which for Pocket Dimension feats is wrong.

 

[AguilaR101]

Btw, the feat characters currently scale to is still using the explosion formula, the usage of which for Pocket Dimension feats is wrong.

That actually never reached a conclusion, otherwise 3-As and 4-As through dimensional feats would've been dropped several tiers as well.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Pretty sure people were arguing for either going with the dimensions' size or their contents, not using an explosion formula for them.

But yeah, I don't remember that being concluded.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That actually never reached a conclusion, otherwise 3-As and 4-As through dimensional feats would've been dropped several tiers as well.

Honestly most 3-As and 4-As have good excuses to use their dimensional feats for AP.

PMMM not only has it on a vastly smaller and less quantifiable scale, but also lacks feats anywhere else to support the ratings from it.

And it's one of the very few verses that do it, too. Imagine if we did the same thing with Fate and made Iskander High 4-C for having a Reality Marble that shows a sun.

 

[AguilaR101]

I don't keep up with PMMM nowadays but I'm pretty sure literally every witch in the series creates a pocket space directly as result of their magic, there is no reason they don't scale to them.

That's not my point though, what I was adressing specifically is how we rate those feats, in my opinion rating dimenson creation feats as if they were omnidirectional explosions is complete wank regardless of what tier/size they may be.

Also can't agree with the second statement as this isn't the only or even the most popular verse where other more conventional feats aren't even close to their pocket reality/dimension ones.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That means nothing. They aren't converting their pocket realities to magic and hurling it at an opponent. Not that the feats can be quantified in he first place or have support with any other feats in the series.

My second statement was in regards to scaling. That and we're discussing PMMM, not some other verse, so using other verses as an example also means nothing.

If we're using what I would loosely call a 'feat' that aren't even from fights or demonstrations of power in the series, and is ridiculously above them, just maybe we're not rating the series correctly.

Call it an outlier, inconsistency, PIS, unquantifiable, there's so many reasons I can pull out for the issues with using the feats in PMMM.

 

[Agnaa]

That actually never reached a conclusion, otherwise 3-As and 4-As through dimensional feats would've been dropped several tiers as well.

It has reached a conclusion, the conclusion was "Estimate based on size until interplanetary, then use GBE and inverse square law". This text can be seen on the Pocket Reality Manipulation page.

I didn't realize there was an issue with PMMM's pocket reality feats, is a CRT in order?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

iirc a CRT was supposed to happen but either never did or was forgotten about.

 

[AguilaR101]

That means nothing. They aren't converting their pocket realities to magic and hurling it at an opponent. Not that the feats can be quantified in he first place or have support with any other feats in the series.

Don't they use magic to create them?. And I assume they they also use magic for their attacks, same source of power so they scale like the reasoning at the bottom of the ED page.

Personally I find that argument uncompelling but from what I've seen of other verses with such feats it's just as good.

They can't be quantified

I can agree to that, except the arbitrary ratings we give to all those types feats are still upheld and the standard for how they are generally rated hasn't changed soooo

Using other feats not being on the same level as a basis to knock them down is silly to me when other series aren't held to the same standard, heck DMC is a verse with nothing beyond tier 6 outside of a single character's feat which coincidentally also requires us to arbitrarily assume it equates to an omnidirectional explosion because RW and merging dimensions sure as hell ins't quantifiable either.

Fully aware of the proof by example fallacy here, but maybe just maybe the controversy sorrounding these types of feats wouldn't exist if it was very easy to make the connection between them and a character's AP.

all other stuff concerning the verse belongs in a proper CRT. I'm just making an impromptu rant about the cognitive dissonance needed to criticize their feats.

 

[Agnaa]

@Aguila From what I've heard DMC has at least 3 universal feats, weird for you to say there's nothing beyond tier 6.

Also, PMMM does have many legitimate tier 6/tier 5/higher feats but they don't scale to most of the cast, possibly making tier 7 feats still an outlier for most of the cast.

I'm not sure what exactly would be needed for a CRT in this verse, should I create a discussion thread about these changes instead?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

There are 8 3-A feats in DMC actually, and 3 of them are not dimension-related.

 

[AguilaR101]

There are 8 3-A feats in DMC actually, and 3 of them are not dimension-related.

Does a single one of them fit the actual scenario assumed for the baseline of 3-A that is literally "nuke the entire universe and every celestial body within it with a blast", if so, forgive my unwarranted rant.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

No, but one of the feats involves universe creation, which IMO is pretty straight-forward.

 

[Agnaa]

I've made a thread for discussing the AP issues.