I Was Caught In A Non-Existent Beginning but that World is Prologue

[BoastJr]

Hello Everyone, been a while since I have made a CRT

The Focus of this CRT is to change a Character named Kuromueina who is basically the "Beginning" as opposed to Shallow Vernal's "End".

With that said I believe it should grant Kuro Abstract Existence as well as Non Existence Physiology related to Plot. If the initial Proposal is accepted then I would like to add that Shiro would get the above as well for reasons below.



Kuro, the darkness that became the origin.



So, let's get straight to the point. What I'm about to propose might seem far-fetched but it's still worth a try. So, let's begin:



Non-existent Physiology and Abstract Existence:



So, the main argument comes from this.(Ch 635). “Prologue: The beginning of the story” is the “embodiment of Kuro’s true essence”. Basically, Prologue is Kuro's true form, just like Shiro and Epilogue a bit still different. She also didn't just awaken it out of nowhere, she always had it, it just wasn't awakened till now(chapter 635). Prologue is the power to turn impossibilities into possibilities by changing the story. She is the one who always stands at the beginning of the story. She never used the full power of the Prologue in the story. Kuro stands at the beginning of every story, meaning that there's nothing before her, not even the story itself as she is the ultimate starting point of it all. There's nothing before the Prologue so the target can't be revived or reverse the damage done to them, confirming once again that there's nothing before the Prologue and it can only be cancelled out/reversed by Kuro herself. (Ch 797)



Now, from everything till now, it's pretty much clear that Kuro has AE1 Plot due to Prologue being the embodiment of her true essence and it existing before everything.



Now going to the real part, Kuro is described as "a monster whose interior is empty and it's power is the concept of nothingness" and as we have seen, her power Prologue is the embodiment of her true essence and this “monster” is Kuro who was just born, in her truest form. A black void embodying the concept of nothingness with an empty interior.



The main point I'm trying to get at is, Kuro is the concept of nothingness that exists outside/before everything, including the stories of everyone and everything. Prologue is the nothingness that marks the beginning of every story.



In conclusion, I think Kuro should get NEP1 aspect 5: Plot due to not existing in a story but existing as the concept of nothingness outside all the stories.



With this much clear, I'll try to go for more things that I think are possible as well.

1. Isis is the embodiment of the concept of death, a concept that has taken form. She also has a spiritual form though it's not “exactly” a spiritual form but something similar. This basically gives her a possible AE1.
2. There was a digital monster made and evolved from data, basically an info type 2 existence. It created and ruled the cyberspace, which is a parallel world entirely so it is pretty much confirmed to be info type 2.

I think it's understandable where I am going with this but:



Kuro is the concept of nothingness outside of the story. The story includes everyone and everything that exists. Even beings like Isis and the (late)digital monster follow one as Prologue works on even Omnipotent and Omniscient beings. Omniscient and Omnipotent Beings are treated as 8-D as of now inverse.



Conclusion is, Kuro will have NEP type 1 aspects 2,4 and 5(Plot) along with Plot Based Abstraction.



And her plot manipulation should be rated as 8-D since it works on Omnipotent and Omniscient beings.

Scaling to Shallow Vernal

This should most probably give NEP to Shiro as well. The reasoning is Epilogue is the power to bring an end to all things. When the book is closed, the story comes to an end. When the curtain is pulled down, the stage is over. You may go back to the start again, but it will be the reader who decides whether your story is opened again. Epilogue is described as a “book” as the existence of anything is nothing more than a paper to it, suggesting that it exists beyond stories. Following the same logic as Kuro, who is the nothingness before the story, Shiro should be the nothingness after the story as all the stories end and the curtain is closed. Nothing remains when the story is ended, only Epilogue does as it exists outside of it in the nothingness after the end of the story.

So, Shiro should get NEP type 1, aspect 2,4 and 5(Plot)

 

[Noneless21]

I do heard from Pegasus that it has solid reasoning so I'll be neutral for now

It'll be so funny that the Epilogue can't be interacted because almost nobody has plot manipulation that works on plot based NEP aspect type 5

 

[Fantric]

Such a well made argument! Self glazing be like

Okay, looking at this carefully rn...... might've worded it a bit better...but eh f**k it we be going all out now.

Dunno how much we gotta wait or if it'll be actually accepted or not tbh but ehh

 

[RM97]

Seems blatant and straightforward, so count me for agreement.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

As I said before I think it makes sense, only issue is I don't think the Prologue scales to 8-D currently, since its the full power that does that, and we don't know whether Kuro currently has that full power.

 

[Fantric]

As I said before I think it makes sense, only issue is I don't think the Prologue scales to 8-D currently, since its the full power that does that, and we don't know whether Kuro currently has that full power.

Honestly, I just added that without much thought so maybe. But tbh we don't really know if that statement was about FP Prologue or the one she used tho, so tbf I think a possibly rating should be fine.....or I think I need to reread that chapter again

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Plot Manipulation can't be 8-D, since plot are abstracts, so it can't be 8-D or higher (except Low 1-A to 0)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

It's as i thought only Prologue (Fully Awakened) scales above Omnipotence and Omnipotence

~ ~ Extra : What would be the rankings of the Six Kings if they had grown to their maximum potential? ~ ~
No. 1 : Kuromueina (Prologue Fully Awakened)

No. 2 : Alice

No. 3 : Isis (Magic Power of Death Full Control)

~ ~ The Wall of Omnipotence ~ ~

No. 4 : Megiddo (True Form)

Tied for No. 4 : Ein (Authority of Time Complete Growth)

~ ~ The Wall of Quasi-Omnipotence ~ ~

No. 6 : Lillywood (Divine Tree Form)

No. 7 : Magnawell

※ His large size tends to be a handicap when dealing against beings of the same rank

~ ~ Extra within an extra ~ ~

Prologue (Fully Awakened)

It is the power of Kuromueina, allowing her to control the beginning, and at the time of the final battle, Kuromueina was only able to use a small portion of this power.
With this power, Kuromueina stands at the beginning of everything, which makes it so that “nothing can exist before Kuromueina”. In every action, the first move would “always be held by Kuromueina”, and those who face her would always lose the initiative.

With this power, Kuromueina is also the one who determines the beginning. Since there is nothing before the beginning set by Kuromueina, all of Kuromueina’s attacks are irreversible, making recovery and revival impossible. The establishment of the beginning can always be canceled by Kuromueina if she wills it.

With this power, Kuromueina is capable of reaching any outcome and creating any outcome.

This power is extremely powerful and is theoretically higher than omnipotence, so even if the opponent is omnipotent and omniscient, there is no escaping from the power of the beginning.

However, it is still “a power within the domain of comparing abilities”, so it cannot resist the completely beyond… out of the realm power of Epilogue. However, if one were to exclude Epilogue, one could say that this holds the strongest power.

…But then, there has never been, and will never be, any development that would need her to use this power to fight. The world is at peace.-Chapter 797

So yea, no 8-D currently. And yea hax isn't really treated as being higher d anymore, so it would just give range.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Keep cooking Boastz

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

Bro I needed to copy your homework once again because I simply cannot cook up something as fine as this

I needed the Blue Prints, The Receipts and the Training.

I needed your wisdom, your knowledge.

"Ergo Cognito Sum Am" is the best way to describe you. Truly a God amongs us Mere Men.

Bro's Cooking Level is michelin Class, Mr World Wide

I award you the best of the best IaP Scaler in the entirety of History

I can't keep up, I am washed in comparison. Simple as that.

Save Isekai at Peace and I mean EVERYTHING unironically

You Can COOK Brother

 

[Fantric]

Bro I needed to copy your homework once again because I simply cannot cook up something as fine as this

I needed the Blue Prints, The Receipts and the Training.

I needed your wisdom, your knowledge.

"Ergo Cognito Sum Am" is the best way to describe you. Truly a God amongs us Mere Men.

Bro's Cooking Level is michelin Class, Mr World Wide

I award you the best of the best IaP Scaler in the entirety of History

I can't keep up, I am washed in comparison. Simple as that.

Save Isekai at Peace and I mean EVERYTHING unironically

You Can COOK Brother

Pookie wtf told you I was kidding there was no need to write this essay....

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Looked it over in parts today, count my agrement too amigo

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Am I missing something here? So kuro's true essence is the prologue(plot abstract). Okay I can see this. But then she lacks the plot aspect, while having a plot essence and generates stories...seems a little weird to me. Also, is she NEP all the time? Or is this limited? Because she obviously doesn't act NEP all the time. Is it like an essence thing too? I can see both the nep and plot I guess these just seem to be clashing rn with type 5

I also feel if she is the non-existence to literally everything, and we are using isis for types 2 and 4, we could find mind somewhere. I mean, they got mid godly regen for surviving isis. She can kill the soul, the soul can think and includes memory, the mind(the mind breaking), etc. If we are throwing isis physiology in there, and saying kuro is nothingness to everyone/everything, might as well include type 3 in that.

As for the epilogue, I can see at least it having NEP interactions. Though it was never rlly called non existent itself or said to act like that. It does exist outside the story including the prologue, but idk giving it the same physiology. This will probably pass tho so I'm neutral on that I guess

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Now that you mention it, the Prologue is the very beginning of the story which is why nothing exists before it, but yea that would still make it a apart of the story, just the very beginning, not lacking one so, I don't see aspect type 5.

Kuro isn't always non-existent, she can be touched, but imo to actually kill her requires the ability to interact with her true essence, for example when Alice cut her hand off in her Base Form, it just turned into smoke, which is what we usually see when she uses her "void" powers, and reformed itself. When she then used her Former True Form, Alice's attacks just slipped right through her. So in Base seems to be a thing where you can touch her, but not kill her, in her Former True Form, and New True Form, she can be touched normally, but can just decide to be nonexistent, letting stuff past through her.

As for mind/soul stuff, it kind of has been semi-accepted since it is in the peerage page, but hasn't been fully discussed or applied, basically yea mind=soul in verse, so everyone who has mind manipulation, should get soul manipulation, and vice versa, but haven't gotten around to doing that.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Though it was never rlly called non existent itself

The best thing that supports it is NEP , is from the scan below for me, as it proves the end of a story is the erasure of a story’s existence, since the epilogue is the end itself, which makes it nonexistence by that logic.

Shallow Vernal “will not disappear as long as other stories exist”. She can only end her own story after she has brought all the stories to their ends.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Makes sense that Kuro can probably decide when to use the NEP aspect of her essence whenever, and then to actually kill her fully you would have to deal with the essence completely, and in base properly harming her requires that too.

The best thing that supports it is NEP , is from the scan below for me, as it proves the end of a story is the erasure of a story’s existence, since the epilogue is the end itself, which makes it nonexistence by that logic.

Shallow Vernal “will not disappear as long as other stories exist”. She can only end her own story after she has brought all the stories to their ends.

I guess if we now go with the fact it's probably not the type 5 aspect it would make more sense. Since she still has her own story the end, or "'The epilogue itself" too I guess. Since technically the epilogue will have this nep and not like world creator Shiro from what I got.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

As for mind/soul stuff, it kind of has been semi-accepted since it is in the peerage page, but hasn't been fully discussed or applied, basically yea mind=soul in verse, so everyone who has mind manipulation, should get soul manipulation, and vice versa, but haven't gotten around to

Looks like type 3 wouldn't be able to get covered in this crt then, since I'm guessing mind=soul stuff will take a while to cover with all the others. Though if it's already approved for like regen stuff, maybe would still be applicable here? Probably better to just wait till it's fully implemented tho

(bro wth...i meant to edit this to my other reply not a whole next reply to the message. And site made me link an advertisement)

 

[Fantric]

As for the epilogue, I can see at least it having NEP interactions. Though it was never rlly called non existent itself or said to act like that. It does exist outside the story including the prologue, but idk giving it the same physiology. This will probably pass tho so I'm neutral on that I guess

I'll be honest, I never really properly understood Epilogue NEP argument tbh but it looked convincible enough when I was making this so thought might as well the put it here lmao.

About the same physiology, Epilogue and Prologue are pretty much connected. Prologue being originated from Epilogue should solve this problem ig?

About the NEP being always active or limited, my understanding was that the Prologue itself is always non existent while Kuro being the physical manifestation of it hence being able to choose when to become one or not. But at the end of the day, you need to affect the Prologue itself to actually kill her.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The Prologue came from the Epilogue, which is an eternal existence. The Epilogue has been described as being able to end everything, and also being the phenomenon of a story's ending.

Basically since the Epilogue is the end of everything, nothing can exist after it, same as nothing can exist before the Prologue. As for NEP interaction, Epilogue beats Prologue because even though the Prologue is the nothingness at the beginning it's still in the domain of comparison, compared to the Epilogue it's just paper in a book, just fictional.

I don't remember how we treat NEP vs ap, can a higher tiered character beat someone with NEP by nuking their reality? R>F takes that to the next level, when you see someone as fiction, just words on paper I don't think being nonexistent saves you from being erased, but could be wrong.

 

[Fantric]

I can be wrong too but afaik normal EE won't interact I believe. Tho higher D environmental destruction will probably nuke them out. R>F, of course, works on them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As I said before I think it makes sense, only issue is I don't think the Prologue scales to 8-D currently, since its the full power that does that, and we don't know whether Kuro currently has that full power.

Agreed

 

[Enter_Bluey]

From what I remember, R>F probably doesn't allow someone to full on interact with NEP, unlike something like nonduality. NEP is the next "'I can get away with anything" physiology from being uninteractable. Unless NEP nature 1 can be interacted by R>F and I didn't realize. Frankly I don't know why it's like this.



Higher AP can nuke their reality though which effectively "erases" them since they have nothing to act within. It's worse with R>F. As for the epilogue, yeah. Nothing can exist before the prologue, and after the epilogue. And the former came from the latter. Is this proving Epilpgues NEP? I guess so, it just similarly wouldn't be type 5 ig. Unless we R saying it's not

 

[Fantric]

Higher AP can nuke their reality though which effectively "erases" them since they have nothing to act within. It's worse with R>F. As for the epilogue, yeah. Nothing can exist before the prologue, and after the epilogue. And the former came from the latter. Is this proving Epilpgues NEP? I guess so, it just similarly wouldn't be type 5 ig. Unless we R saying it's not

Isn't R>F just HDE on Baki lvl steroids? Yea, you're non-existent but you're still just words written on a paper for someone with R>F which they can just tear apart whenever they want to.

I mean, Epilogue always existed. It's the end of the story and its own end can only be brought when all the stories are ended, suggesting it is outside all the stories. We know nothing exists when a story ends as the curtains close, so it can be aspect 5 tbh. Epilogue itself is outside the end of all stories and it is highly likely that Prologue, which appeared from Epilogue itself as it's opposite to exist before everything as it is the thing that marks the beginning of everything.

 

[BoastJr]

snip

Epilogue Tier -1 negs Weak Prologue Dipolar M Atoms

Epilogue Type 6 Diabetes NEP Negs weak R > F Destroy Logic

 

[Enter_Bluey]

How does an immortality being tied to the stories itself, suggest it's outside of stories tho (I know its the end of all stories but that immortality doesnt prove why it is)? And it's kinda the same thing as before, they lack the plot aspect and yet their power is a heavily plot based ability. In this situation too, at least Kuro was said to be nothingness...the epilogue on the other hand is outside of stories via R>F. Not via being nothingness? It views even the prologue, as words in a book. Its NEP is meaningless because of that R>F.

I feel like the fusion of shiro/kuro should have this shared NEP if anything, no? Like ik both abilities have similar descriptions, but there's a clear difference between the two as well. Prologue could never compare. That "being of nothingness that can generate possibilities" is just a character in a book still. That's why even if the prologue is "'the beginning of all stories" we still dunno if it can beat everyone within these stories (not yet anyway). They're similar, yet not. I dunno..

I say this but author will probably drop some random "the epilogue is nothingness/a void" in however many chapters. Makes talking about scaling for this verse so silly

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Epilogue Tier -1 negs Weak Prologue Dipolar M Atoms

Epilogue Type 6 Diabetes NEP Negs weak R > F Destroy Logic

TRUE, prlogue dipolar negs weak tripolar epilogues awaken full beyond outerverse high levels

 

[Fantric]

How does an immortality being tied to the stories itself, suggest it's outside of stories tho (I know its the end of all stories but that immortality doesnt prove why it is)? And it's kinda the same thing as before, they lack the plot aspect and yet their power is a heavily plot based ability. In this situation too, at least Kuro was said to be nothingness...the epilogue on the other hand is outside of stories via R>F. Not via being nothingness? It views even the prologue, as words in a book. Its NEP is meaningless because of that R>F.

I feel like the fusion of shiro/kuro should have this shared NEP if anything, no? Like ik both abilities have similar descriptions, but there's a clear difference between the two as well. Prologue could never compare. That "being of nothingness that can generate possibilities" is just a character in a book still. That's why even if the prologue is "'the beginning of all stories" we still dunno if it can beat everyone within these stories (not yet anyway). They're similar, yet not. I dunno..

I say this but author will probably drop some random "the epilogue is nothingness/a void" in however many chapters. Makes talking about scaling for this verse so silly

The immortality itself doesn't grant it. I'm basically looking at this like, a story is a page in the book and Epilogue is the phenomenon that closes it. The end of a story is the end of the existence itself so "closing" the stories basically means closing the book, Epilogue isn't exactly the book, it's the phenomenon that closes it and to close the book you need to be outside of it.

I do get where you're coming from tho, it certainly seems to be just R>F difference tho imo it can be both, since we know there's nothingness before the story's beginning, why can't there be nothingness after it's end, especially when we're told that existence itself ends when a story ends. But yea, comparing Prologue and Epilogue feels wierd but.... just makes sense? Honestly, this thing even has a bit of weight just cuz Prologue came from Epilogue.

We know FP Prologue can affect Omnipotent and Omniscient beings and UE Kuro was able to damage Makina's main body so there's that. Prologue was also stated to be THE strongest after Epilogue but that was way back in the past tbh but the argument can still be made exactly cuz we dunno the full power of Prologue.

 

[Fantric]

TRUE, prlogue dipolar negs weak tripolar epilogues awaken full beyond outerverse high levels

I don't understand a single thing you both said but it sounds good

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

Pack it up Cro

We are washed since 2023

Fantric is th God of Debating this verse, he claim'd the Crown and his dues. If a No.1 Debater for this verse existed then it would be Him

Not even IaP Punisher can beat him, He just outscales everyone

 

[Fantric]

Pack it up Cro

We are washed since 2023

Fantric is th God of Debating this verse, he claim'd the Crown and his dues. If a No.1 Debater for this verse existed then it would be Him

Not even IaP Punisher can beat him, He just outscales everyone

Let's ignore the fact that I didn't know the requirements for 1-A until a few months ago

 

[Noneless21]

Keep in mind we can't make Shiro high 1-A until Kaito's second birthday where they just randomly drop the world creator hierarchy and the fact that Mamakina has Uber busted immortality, so yeah, we could just wait for a new statement and it'll come out when Kaito had a tea party with Nebula and Tiana or something

 

[Bummel]

Keep in mind we can't make Shiro high 1-A until Kaito's second birthday where they just randomly drop the world creator hierarchy and the fact that Mamakina has Uber busted immortality, so yeah, we could just wait for a new statement and it'll come out when Kaito had a tea party with Nebula and Tiana or something

Which is near since shiro is jealous of previous tea party

 

[Noneless21]

Which is near since shiro is jealous of previous tea party

Honestly, I'm waiting for Lillywood to fall in love already tbh

 

[Noneless21]

bump

 

[BoastJr]

Bump

 

[Noneless21]

bump

 

[BoastJr]

Bump

 

[Enter_Bluey]

From what I gathered here kuro is in running for nep aspect 1 2 and 4. Atp thread will last till the mind=soul thing gets resolved might as well wait till that for type 3.

I still dk about Shiro nep or type 5 for her

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

I think we should give 12 Lashinhs to whoever invented NEP

Its so Buns and genuinely unfun

"Wahahahahaha ! My character is immune to all your attacks BECAUSE HE DOESN'T EXIST... or DOES HE ?"

 

[Enter_Bluey]

I think we should give 12 Lashinhs to whoever invented NEP

Its so Buns and genuinely unfun

"Wahahahahaha ! My character is immune to all your attacks BECAUSE HE DOESN'T EXIST... or DOES HE ?"

Soon nep will be dethroned like nonduality...

I find pairing certain abilities with nep funny