Infinite Speed Guidelines FINALE

[Assaltwaffle]

Is there anything more to discuss? I think the staff agree on the Void types, their qualifications, and the implementation of a "Voids in fiction" page.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That's like literally what this thread is '''not''' about.

 

[DMB_1]

Rapid, as we already said, we'll talk about that later, not on this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@Assalt

Kepekley needs to write a draft for the new page first.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Didn't Azathoth once mention that timeless voids are actually immeasurable?

 

[Antvasima]

It would create too great contradictions to consider them as such.

 

[Golden_Void]

Type 2: Infinite speed is indeed possible, however more evidence is needed.

Given this statement, isn't it basically line one (no), or is it a possibly rating?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Type 1 is the type of stuff that gets rejected out of hand regardless of circumstance.

Type 2 is the type which is generally rejected, but may be accepted with supporting evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

We still need a draft for a timeless voids page to settle this discussion. It doesn't have to be long, just some standards to link to in the speed page.

 

[FrancoGYFV]

If t = 0

Speed = 0, unless speed is ∞.

How does that make sense?

An infinite line still isn't 2D

0 times ∞ is undefined, not infinity

 

[Antvasima]

Well, 0 times a countable infinity is still 0, whereas 0 times an uncountable infinity is undefined, or so I have been told.

 

[Kaltias]

Uh, an infinite line is indeed 2-D.

Also that's what Ever said.

He said that your speed has to be infinite if time = 0 in order to move, because any finite number multiplied by 0 = 0.

 

[AKM sama]

And any infinite number multiplied by 0 can not be determined. 0 x Infinity is an indeterminate form. It does not equate to distance like s x t = d should be.

The problem is that you are using ^ this equation even when one of the variables, 't' doesn't even exist. The concept of speed ceases to exist as soon as the concept of time ceases to exist. Again, moving in a timeless void should never mean that a character has infinite speed. It should mean that the character has the ability to move in a void where time doesn't exist, akin to the ability to move in a time stop.

It's not speed, it's an ability.

 

[Kaltias]

That's exactly why we look for statements relating it to a time stop or something along these lines.

Because you can't slap a standard behaviour on every void ever, but if it's compared to a time stop, it's pretty obvious that it means that time = 0

 

[AKM sama]

Which still doesn't affect speed in any way. Unless there is a statement that the character moved in ^such a void where t=0, due to pure speed alone, it still remains an ability to move in stopped time.

 

[Kaltias]

Moving in stopped time is an infinite speed feat though.

It's simply that for most characters in fiction it's an outlier

 

[AKM sama]

We don't give infinite speed to every character who moves in stopped time. Instead we give them the "ability to move in stopped time", which we sometimes call "Resistance to Time Stop".

 

[Kaltias]

Yes. That's what i said.

We don't give them infinite speed because it's an outlier, so we label it as resistance to time stop.

If a character spends most of its life in a place where time doesn't flow at all, it's constantly moving at infinite speed, so the outlier is when they move at a finite speed.

 

[NeoZex6399]

It was recently confirmed that the Distortion World has no concepts of time and space.

Can the DW be type 3 or is it still considered type 2?

 

[AKM sama]

"If a character spends most of its life in a place where time doesn't flow at all, it's constantly moving at infinite speed, so the outlier is when they move at a finite speed."

Which is the wrong approach imo. Instead, the character should get an "ability to move where time doesn't flow", and there should be no outliers or inconsistencies. Because fiction rarely portrays said character to have infinite speed when compared to those who have finite speed.

 

[Kaltias]

2.

But specific cases should be discussed in other threads

 

[NeoZex6399]

Well, at least Giratina can get good resistances.

Maybe there's more luck in the next games.

 

[AKM sama]

In case, you didn't get what I am trying to say, I'll just clarify my stance.

There are two ways in which we can treat this "moving when time doesn't flow" feat:

• When it is treated as a speed feat, it gives birth to huge outliers and inconsistencies when every other time outside of that particular realm, the character is not portrayed to have infinite speed when compared to those who have finite speed.

• Instead if we treat it as an ability, there will be no more inconsistencies and outliers when every other time, the character is not portrayed to have infinite speed when compared to those who have finite speed. Then the speed which the character shows outside of the realm, through any other feat or scaling, should become his actual speed. And if the character still lacks a feat to gain a speed rating, it should be left unknown.

In almost all situations in fiction, the "moving when time doesn't flow" feat is meant to be treated like the second scenario.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We can't just say "Let's not use it as speed because it creates outliers". Verses with these feats in which are accepted should be evaluated seperately. It's simply that like you said fiction doesn't follow these rules, as such we have to adapt the speed ratings to the series. Nothing more.

 

[DodoNova2]

I may be an example of an outlier concerning infinite speed:

Sailor Pluto lives in a place between space and time, the concept of direction and distance does not exist and the Space Time Corridor is a place where time does not flow

this is clearly Infinite but it's an Outlier so perhaps this example in the page speed seem good

 

[AKM sama]

We can't just say "Let's not use it as speed because it creates outliers". Verses with these feats in which are accepted should be evaluated seperately. It's simply that like you said fiction doesn't follow these rules, as such we have to adapt the speed ratings to the series. Nothing more.

When that "outlier" happens everytime a character with infinite speed meets a character with finite speed, it's not an outlier anymore, it becomes normal. Which means the interpretation of "moving where time doesn't flow" being a speed feat is false and it was never meant to be treated as such.

In these situations, treating it like an ability makes far more sense and becomes the more logical interpretation out of the two. (Unless these characters have feats of travelling anywhere instantly or statements of having infinite speed.)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That is blatantly false as there are verses in which characters do scale to fighting characters with these feats. Not everyone scales, but there are people who do. It's all about consistency and at times, lore. The same can be said for Immeasurable. There are people who scale for fighting them. And there are many people who are written off as outliers. However, we don't make that an ability. Something I am vehemently against and no one else accepts.

 

[AKM sama]

If character A who has no feat or statement of having infinite speed, scales to a character B who has no feat or statement of having infinite speed but can move where time doesn't flow,

then assuming both have infinite speeds when none of them have been portrayed as such in comparison to others, is far more illogical than assuming both have finite speeds and B has the ability to move where time doesn't flow.

Of course, many might not accept it as things here, have been like this forever. And it's not going to change just because someone suggested a different approach, unless the staff agrees. I am just putting it out there for anyone who is willing to understand my point of view.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I personally have always thought that "the power to move in a place without time" makes more sense that "infinite speed" in the vast majority of situations

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So now we got a new issue. It seems like each time we get close to closing this, something else happens. inb4 this takes another thread.

Side 1: This should stay as infinite speed

Side 2: This should be used and treated as an ability and not speed.

.................This will never end....>.>

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Uhh sorry?

That's just what I think makes more sense than assigning infinite speed to characters who don't show it anywhere else.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dragon

That is one of the reasons why I want important discussions about our fundamental standards to always be staff only. Even if they do not quickly get bloated with hundreds of posts, there will still be lots of derailment rather than staying focused on what needs to be done.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, as soon as somebody writes an accepted draft for a timeless voids page, I can clean up the text, create the new page, link to it in the speed page, and we can close this thread.

 

[Dark649]

I personally think tier 2 beings should get it as normal speed if met the voidless conditions while the lower ones as an ability if its a major plot thing and happened more times [Jotaro and Goku], but it depends for example verses like King of Fighters, Soul Calibur and most Sonic characters staying in areas without time and space should be threated as an outlier and not applied.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's not reasonable to assign a resistance to time stop to a character who has literally never faced a time ability, and has never even been remotely implied to be able to resist one.

T = 0 = infinite speed doesn't require speculation, while the suggestion above does.

So I disagree with it.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Ant

I'm waiting for DontTalk to respond to a question I sent his way before I can start making the draft.

 

[AKM sama]

Even if they do not quickly get bloated with hundreds of posts, there will still be lots of derailment rather than staying focused on what needs to be done.

If that comment is directed to me, I was staying focused on what needs to be discussed though, i.e. Infinite Speed Guidelines.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It's not reasonable to assign a resistance to time stop to a character who has literally never faced a time ability, and has never even been remotely implied to be able to resist one.
T = 0 = infinite speed doesn't require speculation, while the suggestion above does.

So I disagree with it.

Except the time "ability" they are facing is a timeles void.

And it seems more speculation to say their speed is infinitely above anything they have ever shown elsewhere (if they show it elsewhere, sure), than to just say "they can move in a timeless void"

 

[Kepekley23]

Zero indication of them having that ability.

But it isn't. Cinematic Time is a thing. Even abilities that can ignore distance suffer from it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The indication is the fact that they can move in a timeless void.

Said attacks would need to be explicitly stated to do so to be rated like that. Same as infinite speed.