Is 3-A Goku an outlier? (ANSWERED)

[One_Stick_Man]

I'm not a master at DBS, but is the Universal feat an outlier? I don't think it is seeing how powerful enemies can get, but just wondering. This is up until the last 3-A (The Goku FAKER Arc)


EDIT: 3-A feat (From what it looks like) is NOT an outlier.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No

 

[Warren_Valion]

There are numerous universal level feats and statements done by God Tiers, so no, it is not an outlier - why would you think that?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

No

Being Devil's advocate here, how does Goku's page support your statement of "no"? The page literally does nothing but scale from the Battle of the Gods feat up until the Tournament of Power arc.

 

[Genericstickman]

There are numerous universal level feats and statements done by God Tiers, so no, it is not an outlier - why would you think that?

This

 

[Warren_Valion]

No

Being Devil's advocate here, how does Goku's page support your statement of "no"?
The page literally does nothing but scale from the Battle of the Gods feat up until the Tournament of Power arc.

There's the 3-A justification blog linked on Goku's page.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No

Being Devil's advocate here, how does Goku's page support your statement of "no"?
The page literally does nothing but scale from the Battle of the Gods feat up until the Tournament of Power arc.

Because, it shows that we do not treat said feat as an outlier. Which answers his question of whether it's an outlier.

 

[TartaChocholate]

This blog explains why the events of Battle of the Gods do count. Hope it helps.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

1.There were statements that two Gods can destroy both universes during their clash.

2.Goku and Beerus almost destroyed the Universe.

3.Zamasu is low-2C for a reason and everyone scales from him.

4.Jiren Shook the WOV.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

@Warren I'm aware of the blog. That's the thing the OP is asking about being an outlier.

@Dragonnmasterxyz Well, I guess it is true the OP asked a 'yes or no' question, but my question is moreso a 'why'.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

In a "why" sense, it is due to not only this feat being replicated like twice in the same fight iirc. But also other statements coming afterwards about GoD and the fact that Goku achieved a new form.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren I'm aware of the blog. That's the thing the OP is asking about being an outlier.

The blog goes into detail on how the feat is legit.

Anyway, for "why", just look at my original post.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

In a "why" sense, it is due to not only this feat being replicated like twice in the same fight iirc. But also other statements coming afterwards about GoD and the fact that Goku achieved a new form.

I don't think the feat being done twice in the same fight (in fact, same "Act" of the fight) makes it any different, but I guess that's merely something of preference.

Regardless, what later statements afterwards would confirm it? Because it'd be wise if Goku's keys following the BoG arc were not merely 'stronger than before' and actually backed by statements.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

@Warren I'm aware of the blog. That's the thing the OP is asking about being an outlier.

The blog goes into detail on how the feat is legit.
Anyway, for "why", just look at my original post.

Said numerous feats go into the Tournament of Power arc. The OP only says up to the Future Trunks Arc.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Said numerous feats go into the Tournament of Power arc. The OP only says up to the Future Trunks Arc.

There's the feat of Champa and Beerus fighting each other and the statement that said their fight will destroy both their respective universes.

There's the feat in the manga of a past Beerus and Champa doing nearly the same thing.

There's the statement of the Super Dragon Balls being able to wish away universes and God of Destruction. And then later the feat of him bringing back universes.

Zeno is said to be able to destroy all of the creation instantly and casually. And of him doing as such in the past.

There's the feat of Zeno destroying Future Trunks multiverse.

And the feat of Zamasu fusing with the universe.

The fifty million times it was stated by literally every knowledgable member on the cosmic order in Universe 7 during the fight with Beerus and Goku.


There are numerous statements and feats of such Universal to Low-Multiversal level beings and attacks done in Super.

It is NOT an outlier.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Let me ask, why would it be an outlier?

I mean that blog explains basically all regarding that feat.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Said numerous feats go into the Tournament of Power arc. The OP only says up to the Future Trunks Arc.

There's the feat of Champa and Beerus fighting each other and the statement that said fight will destroy both their respective universes.
There's the feat in the manga of a past Beerus and Champa doing nearly the same thing.

There's the statement of the Super Dragon Balls being able to wish away universes and God of Destruction. And then later the feat of him bringing back universes.

Zeno is said to be able to destroy all of the creation instantly and casually.

The fifty million times it was stated by literally every knowledgable member on the cosmic order in Universe 7 during the fight with Beerus and Goku.


There are numerous statements and feats of such Universal to Low-Multiversal level beings and attacks done in Super.

It is NOT an outlier.

This wiki separates manga and anime Goku.

I'm positive the Super Dragonballs do not scale to Goku nor vice versa.....

Same reasoning above for Zeno.

That same fight is what the OP is asking if it's an outlier or not.


What 'Low-Multiversal' beings?

I don't see how any of this could disprove the outlier argument except for the first argument, which is manga anyways, and this wiki has the BoG for the Manga at 3-B last I checked.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Let me ask, why would it be an outlier?
I mean that blog explains basically all regarding that feat.

I don't think you see where I'm getting at here.

That blog's purpose is to disprove people claiming that feat isn't universal, and I'm not arguing against that. The blog's purpose isn't to say whether the feat is an outlier, because it is solely focused on the Battle of Gods and not comparing the feat to the rest of the series.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

And again why would the feat be an outlier for Super Saiyan God Goku and Goku who absorbed the Power of SSG?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

And again why would the feat be an outlier for Super Saiyan God Goku and Goku who absorbed the Power of SSG?

My best guess as to why the OP brought this up is because of how everyone who scales to Goku in some kind of way is now universal.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The first argument is from the anime.

The second is from the manga.

The manga is just a supporting feat.

And they don't scale to Zeno or Super Shenron (who are the Low-Multiversal beings), but it shows that there are numerous beings in the verse have cosmic level feats.


Do you know what an outlier is? It's not an outlier because every character exists at a cosmic tier in Super.

Goku performs numerous universe level feats within a fight in a new "Godly" form with dozens of statements from reliable sources backing it up, and then all those above him have tier placements that exist on that level or beyond.

This isn't a random feat that is debunked throughout other parts of the show. This is a level of progression throughout the series that showcases the cosmic strength of the Gods.


From this mindset, every feat and statement in fiction is just an outlier.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

The first argument is from the anime.
The second is from the manga.

The manga is just a supporting feat.

And they don't scale to Zeno or Super Shenron (who are the Low-Multiversal beings), but it shows that there are numerous beings in the verse have cosmic level feats.


Do you know what an outlier is? It's not an outlier because every character exists at a cosmic tier in Super.

Goku performs numerous universe level feat within a fight in a new "Godly" form with dozens of statements from reliable sources backing it up, and then all those above him have tier placements that exist on that level or beyond.

This isn't a random feat that is debunked throughout other parts of the show. This is a level of progression throughout the series that showcases the cosmic strength of the Gods.


From this mindset, every feat and statement in fiction is just an outlier.

I skimmed over the two paragraphs and read them as one since they were conjoined together, so I never saw the anime explanation. Regardless, it was made pretty clear that the two GoDs of them would destroy both of their respective universes if they fought, so this was a "GoD going all out" scenario, not a "GoD was holding back" scenario, which Goku fought in the BoG arc, so you can't scale Goku to that feat.

The point of the post is proving if Anime Goku's 3-A is an outlier, so I don't see how manga would support it.

... I never said 'no one was above universal' to begin with. But again, this post is about if 3-A Goku is an outlier, so using nonscalable characters does not prove your point.


I'm well aware of what an outlier is. I'm also aware that most every character there is a cosmic tier because they all, in a tangle of webs, eventually scale to Goku's BoG arc.

I'm well aware of that feat. The literal blog in Goku's page explains it. I can literally quote myself saying "That blog's purpose is to disprove people claiming that feat isn't universal, and I'm not arguing against that." Don't make it sound like I think the post is wrong. Outlier does not equal wrong. Outlier equals a legitimate feat that is out of the consistent pattern and therefore disregarded.

I never said that the characters were not progressing in strengh throughout Dragonball Super, that's the entire point of the show's plot. I don't see how else I can simplify what I am saying here.

How does my mindset make every feat and statement in fiction an outlier when in most other fictional stories, characters can stand on their own feats and scalings rather than branching out all from one person?

 

[Xerkser500]

Playing devils advocate myself, why are people mentioning feats that happen later in the series?

Im pretty sure the OP is strictly asking about 3-A Goku, as in Battle of Gods Goku, and why its not an outlier for that specific version of Goku. Not SSB Goku or anything afterwards.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well, you can't call it an outlier since SSJG Goku has no other feats to scale from. His only feats are 3-A. Not to mention, there are 2 3-A feats, the kamehameha and the shockwaves.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I never said that the characters were not progressing in strengh throughout Dragonball Super, that's the entire point of the show's plot. I don't see how else I can simplify what I am saying here.

How does my mindset make every feat and statement in fiction an outlier when in most other fictional stories, characters can stand on their own feats and scalings rather than branching out all from one person?

The level of progression in these cosmic feats showcases that it isn't an outlier.

Saying "it's an outlier" when every stronger being in the series is on that level or stronger shows that are within the spectrum, that it is consistent.


An example of an outlier in Dragon Ball would be Roshi's moon feat.

Roshi blowing up the moon would mean he's moon level, but a character that is far stronger than Roshi, and literally killed him - King Piccolo - was only able to accomplish a city busting level feat, and then a stronger Piccolo years later was only able to perform a Small Country level feat.

The moon feat from the weakest character isn't superseded with even greater feats until the Saiyan Saga.

It's an outlier because there are numerous stronger beings only able to produce far weaker feats of strength.


The same isn't said for Super. God Goku - the weakest 3-A in the series performed multiple universal level feats in a fight which is confirmed by dozens of reliable statements, and the feats we get from stronger beings are on a higher scale.

This showcases a linear level of growth, it is consistent. People like Beerus, Super Shenron, and Zeno don't have weaker feats that BoG Goku, they ALL have stronger ones.

The feat would be an outlier if those beings had weaker feats then Goku because it shows the scaling and hierarchy of strength doesn't match the feats presented with those characters. It doesn't however.

And one could imply said mindset to literally anything in fiction. You can take every feat and Dragon Ball and apply the same logic.

Planet level Vegeta? Outlier.

Star level Frieza? Outlier.

Solar System level Cell? Outlier.


I could go on an on.

When everything from reliable statements, to the feat itself, to even guidebooks say that the feats/statements are legit, and there are no future feats or statements that contradict it - then it should be taken as being legit.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Saying "it's an outlier" when every stronger being in the series is on that level or stronger shows that are within the spectrum, that it is consistent. They are considered on that level or stronger via scaling alone. But you're forgetting not only stronger people are being scaled, weaker people are too. An example of an outlier in Dragon Ball would be Roshi's moon feat.

I'm aware of that.

The same isn't said for Super. God Goku - the weakest 3-A in the series performed multiple universal level feats in a fight which is confirmed by dozens of reliable statements, and the feats we get from stronger beings are on a higher scale.

Are the 'stronger beings' comparable beings?

This showcases a linear level of growth, it is consistent. People like Beerus, Super Shenron, and Zeno don't have weaker feats that BoG Goku, they ALL have stronger ones.

Up until the ToP (note that the OP stops at he Goku Black arc), Goku didn't even truly scale to Beerus, let alone Super Shenron or Zeno. So they're not comparable nor scalable to boost your claim.

The feat would be an outlier if those beings had weaker feats then Goku because it shows the scaling and hierarchy of strength doesn't match the feats presented with those characters. It doesn't however.

And one could imply said mindset to literally anything in fiction. You can take every feat and Dragon Ball and apply the same logic.

Planet level Vegeta? Outlier.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc only Goku scaled to Vegeta at the time.

Star level Frieza? Outlier.

Star level Frieza was made off of a multipliers to a dwarf star level calc iirc as well. Besides, only ssj Goku scaled to that until characters later surpassed that level of power.

Solar System level Cell? Outlier. Except no one could honestly stand up to Cell except for Gohan. I think you're missing my point here. You're saying this is the logic to the 3-A rating being an outlier when I was thinking something entirely different; characters scale to Goku. Allow me to give you an example: Piccolo, who stood absolutely zero chance against a Beerus holding back. ssjg Goku made Beerus hold back less, then Goku absorbs that form in base, and then was stated to have gotten much stronger by the RoF saga, and then in the U6 saga, Goku fights Frost, so now Frost is universal, and Piccolo's page is about scaling to Frost, which is his reasoning for being universal. Your scenarios do not match up because characters legitimately close the gap beforehand, whereas in this scenario there's no legitimate reasoning. So yes, there are contradictions that need to be fixed.

 

[Warren_Valion]

What do feats scaling to characters have anything to do with this thread?

This thread is about whether or not the 3-A feats are outliers for BOG Goku.


This is not the case because no feats or statements debunk the notion. Every stronger being scales to higher and higher statements and feats.

There is a linear progression of strength with these characters.

It isn't like Master Roshi's moon feat in which a weaker being (Master Roshi) performed a stronger feat than stronger beings (King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr.).


You are missing the point of this thread.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

What do feats scaling to characters have anything to do with this thread?

This thread is about whether or not the 3-A feats are outliers for BOG Goku.

So... this thread is about whether or not 3-A is an outlier, and other feats and scalings are supposed to prove whether it is or isn't.... Because... that's how outliers work... right?

This is not the case because no feats or statements debunk the notion. Every stronger being scales to higher and higher statements and feats.

And you just blatantly ignored my Piccolo example, didn't you? Y'know, the Piccolo who was nowhere near Beerus when he was holding back to super saiyan god level, now scaling to a Base Goku far stronger than that?

Your response did not address my argument at all; in fact, you repeated yourself.

 

[Therefir]

In any case, Piccolo scaling from Goku would be the outlier, not Goku being 3-A.

 

[Xerkser500]

Unless we decide to downgrade Piccolo (and possibly others in the same boat as him), Piccolo being the outlier instead isnt neccessarily the case.

 

[Therefir]

Piccolo being 3-A has been discussed on numerous occasions, so I doubt he will be downgraded, but saying that Goku is not 3-A because Piccolo is scaling from him is absurd.

The OP's question has already been answered, so this thread should be closed. If Deathstroke wants to downgrade Piccolo, he can make a new thread.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I didn't address your argument because it doesn't address the topic of the thread.

This is a chart the depicts what an outlier is.




If Goku and Beerus's 3-A feat was an outlier, then feats from stronger beings would be below that of God Goku from BOG.

The 3-A feats would be like the circle that's higher than all the others, the one with an arrow pointing toward it.

This is not the case.

Every greater being - Beerus, Super Shenron, Zeno, Fusion Zamasu, Jiren, et cetera have greater feats and statements than BOG God Goku.

The 3-A feats aren't randomly stronger than any other feat in the series, like with my Roshi and Piccolo example. It isn't a noticeable dot that is so much greater than other feats in the series.

So Goku scaling to those feats or characters is irrelevant. What is relevant is that stronger characters have stronger feats and that the feat chain is consistent and linear.

Depicting what is and isn't an outlier stems from context. The context is that all of these God-like characters have cosmic level feats. So the weakest cosmic level feat done by the weakest character in the cosmic level hierarchy makes logical sense and is consistent within the narrative.


As for your Piccolo example, I don't really get your point. Is it that you have a problem of Piccolo scaling to Universal level Goku?

What's the problem? Do you not like the scaling and think it to be an outlier?

If it was an outlier, then Piccolo scaling to Goku would be the outlier here, not Goku having 3-A feats - just like Therefir said.

And if Piccolo scaling to Goku isn't an outlier, it is just indicative of Super's terrible writing.

 

[Xerkser500]

No, we shouldnt close this thread because Deathstroke makes a plausible point that pertains to the OP's question, which wasnt answered. It was from answers that have to do with different versions of Goku.

Not saying he isnt 3-A, but by Deathstrokes argument, if Piccolo is not the outlier then Goku would be. It has to be one or the other. Cant have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Warren_Valion]

if Piccolo is not the outlier then Goku would be. It has to be one or the other. Cant have your cake and eat it too.

Why would this be the case whatsoever?

 

[Therefir]

@Xerkser500 I'm not trying to offend you, but downgrading Dragon Ball from 3-A is practically impossible at this point, it has already been discussed to exhaustion, and many sites similar to Vsbattles accept Goku as 3-A.

 

[Xerkser500]

Goku in general? Obviously

But that doesn't mean specific BoG. Which is what the OP is asking about. And I'm not really taking sides but just playing devils advocate.

 

[Akreious]

How in the hay is this still open and not locked? This has been discussed to high hell and back by now.

Why would Piccolo scaling to Goku be an outlier for either? What's the Anti-Feat? That Frost cheated?

Goku + Beerus in 3 punches would've Universe Busted

Goku got even stronger after and nullified Universe-Destroying energies by himself with his Kamehameha and Beerus did the same.

Later Whis again stated Beerus is capable of blowing up the Universe if he wanted to.

Goku absorbed his God level strength into his base form after that.

Goku achieved a confirmed higher level of power compared to God Form.

Zamasu later BECAME the Universe and Goku was confident he could take him if he had a Senzu.

Where's the outlying Anti-Feat here? I don't see it? An outlier requires that it be out of the realm of possibility in comparison to previous or other feats. Literally every feat and statement Goku and Beerus has in BoG says Universe level.

 

[SomebodyData]

The OP was answered long ago. You're the only one saying that it hasn't. Even the specifically BoG part was.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll close this, the question has been answered.

 

[Therefir]

That's the Goku with the 3-A feat.