[JJBA] Yo, JoJos is NOT MFTL man 💔🥀

[StrymULTRA]

What do you mean by "path"? If someone shot a laser from one mirror to the other, we're not perceiving the beam travel in real time.

But we do still see the travel given the lenght of the laser, and it's not like HM is just a dot lol.

 

[Damage3245]

It's mental gymnastics so that everyone else can scale to MFTL+

The weird thing is that we currently give Avdol MFTL reactions for reacting to Emperor but not Polnareff.

 

[Saqphire]

Ok I am finally back (also please do not spam "I disagree because these arguments are old", at least debunk these yourself ffs):

First and foremost, thanks for saying this. Just because the arguments (or the basis of them) are old, that doesn't mean they aren't capable of being used if it somehow meant that they were valid all along. So again, thanks for at least taking the time to write up a rebuttal at the very least.

Polnareff himself isn't listed as even having MFTL reactions on his profile. It's important as other characters like Jotaro and Giorno have MFTL reactions off them having feats of physically reacting to other stands' movements. Polnareff doesn't have these feats.

I'm saying he should have reaction speeds relative to SC, because Silver Chariot is not an automatic stand unlike Anubis and thus he needs reaction speed to control it; it's why SC is bottlenecked to him in the first place.

But even if we disregard Polnareff here, I'm directly refuting Silver Chariot itself because Polnareff says "I can't hit it with my sword" and "Unless I can see the trajectory, I can't hit it", which means he is talking about using Silver Chariot to hit Hanged Man. Like I said earlier, I am not arguing that Polnareff's own accepted reaction speed (which grants small movements with an arm for example) would be hitting him as that's absurd. He doesn't even have a sword to hit Hanged Man with so who else would he be referring to?

2: Polnareff cannot see through Silver Chariot. It's a key point of the fight against Ebony Devil (posting the anime too for reference):



If you have a super fast blind robot that you can command, it does not matter how fast said robot is if you can't see the target, much less one that is so small that it's smaller than a human iris.

You misunderstand. When I say reactions, I mean reacting with any stimuli. This means that beyond just seeing, Polnareff can use his own mind and will and body to control it, thus reacting to its movements. Last I checked, Reaction Speed never only referred to visual stimuli and in fact, the page which describes reaction speed has another section which I'll elaborate on in my next point

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed

Even then the thing fails to take in account that Silver Chariot had to literally get away from the civilians in order to not harm them, given that Hanged Man was literally hiding in their eyes due to its ability to exist only in reflections of shiny surfaces:

That quite literally implies that Hanged Man is relative, if not superior, in speed to Silver Chariot. This is because of the distance between each civilian is too great for an MFTL character to have problems attacking the SOL Stand as it's moving between civvie to civvie, especially when the latter stand is quite literally known for being extremely precise with its strikes.

For reference, Silver Chariot has a B in precision and Hanged Man has a D in precision yet they both have an A in speed. Hanged Man's precision, which is worse than Silver Chariot's can easily reflect from civilian to civilian with accuracy. This means that Silver Chariot's precision with a speed far superior to Hanged Man should have no issues landing a precise attack on him as Silver Chariot would see the attack as super slow and thus be able to precisely cut him, which is why the stakes shown in the fight makes no sense if that was the case.

And for the second part of the Reaction Speed page:

Reaction speed is reacting to an attack that you don't know is going to happen, or at a very close range. The reaction speed of a character also tends to be higher than their movement speed.

The feat happens because he knew it was gonna happen. And none of the arguments you presented actually refute the fact that Polnareff had to aim dodge it, especially in a situation where he was alone and the light was at a further distance from it's target (aka Polnareff himself)

Ignoring the Part 7 bit as I am not knowledgeable there... I don't see how is that an anti feat? Where is Polnareff struggling here? All he's doing is deflecting these beams.

Plus, did you forget these Stands are literally short ranged? They cannot go away for more than 2 meters away from the user unless you're Hierophant Green, having ghosts that can punch at MFTL is useless if you cannot use them to move away at such speed.

I'm saying that an MFTL character wouldn't be yelling in frustration over a SOL beam he has to reflect, and the beam's trajectory shown is similar to the angles that Silver Chariot moved with his arm. And that's assuming he blocked it from the panel height and not the actual height of the Sun which is over 100 metres away.

And yes, it is short-ranged, but I'm saying there's absolutely nothing that would refute Silver Chariot being able to block all of those beams like that as it's firing its SOL beams from 100 metres away, thus making SC around Sub-Relativistic, there is no statement or implication saying that Silver Chariot was starting to block them when it was up close (or as Amon said, ten centimetres away). That's literally headcanon and a far more extraordinary claim here.

I do not agree with using the anime version (why was it even used to begin with), the idea of Silver Chariot flying towards the coin and then slashing HM when it's mere centimeters away from said coin is consistently shown in both the 2001 and 2015 adaptations:

The 2001 OAV quite literally shows Chariot moving an extremely large distance upwards like Hanged Man did, not that Silver Chariot started to move when Hanged Man was right at the coin. It also shows the fact that Silver Chariot, like Hanged Man, was also slowed down. Meaning it's relative, if not inferior in speed due to Silver Chariot barely catching up to the light. The 2001 OAV would actually go against the calc's result as a result.


The 2015 adaptation was the one I was refuting with the other statements and anti-feats making it contradictory.

Araki is indeed involved in the anime, he aids in writing anime-only scenes too, so I do not think that the anime is capping with the idea of Chariot slicing HM when the latter is really really close to the coin lol. Again, I am not ok with using the anime version over the manga, but it clearly gives an idea on the intent of the feat.

This is not sufficient evidence of canonicity according to the new standards, especially the way Araki words it in the first link and in fact, if Araki was writing anime-only scenes, then he wasn't involved writing this one because it's already in the manga. Thus it's not even valid to put as evidence for narrative intent here. In fact, if we wanna argue narrative intent, him literally writing that Polnareff concedes inferiority with Silver Chariot is literally that.

If the anime shouldn't be used, the scaling would be nuked regardless and you would need a new calc approved by a CGM and the scaling approved in a CRT.

You're very conveniently cutting out this part:

Stroheim himself isn't even MFTL in Combat Speed

As he shouldn't be. He is currently MFTL in reaction speed and the Kars feat is quite literally a reaction speed feat. Thus according to the wiki themselves, that feat is inferior to Stroheim in reaction speed. Thus the standard applies. Also, you're forgetting the fact that Kars has extraordinary heat perception, meaning he can aim dodge the beam as I said in OP.

Kars literally clowned on him the whole fight otherwise, Stroheim only managed to catch him off-guard there.

That link had the very first image of Kars being on-guard getting tagged by bullets dude. What's worse is that those bullets were fired in a 600RPM and there were hundreds of them in the scan, meaning Kars took a very long time to react to them and still failed. An MFTL reaction speed character would've avoided that man.

Same Kars who could move so fast that he disappeared and made a fake of himself before his own light has dissipated, btw.

Exactly when was that clone stated to be a light-clone or an afterimage? Regardless, we don't accept afterimages as FTL feats, especially with anti-feats such as that.

And either way, even if all of these things I brought up weren't a thing, the fact still remains that both feats are individual outliers, as they are both massive jumps in power, both unique/exceptional incidents, unjustified and narrative breaking events, something historically and famously known to not be accepted for any verse. Why should JoJos be an exception to this?

 

[Saqphire]

For the record if there are too many disagreements, especially from staff, then yall can close this

I may have misspoke. I meant if staff only has a majority disagreement. I don't want an FRA train nuking this thread

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ngl, I do kind of agree with the OP in regards to polnareff's feat. Its pointed out in both the Manga and the anime that polnareff cannot perceive or react to hanged man and had to force it into a spot where it only had one possible place to go and then placed chariot in line of that trajectory and preemptively attacking in order to actually hit hanged man.

 

[Firestorm808]

I do but not on this wiki. I can import it tho and get it accepted via a CGM

Let us know when it is ready for review.

 

[Saqphire]

Let us know when it is ready for review.

Gimme a minute

EDIT: Done

 

[Foriaa]

Gimme a minute

EDIT: Done

I have a manga version around 200ish, but depends on how this crt goes.

 

[Saqphire]

I have a manga version around 200ish, but depends on how this crt goes.

Ya I used the full trajectory of the light for the timeframe for mine, that's why it's so low

 

[M3X_2.0]

I left a comment on the calculation.

 

[Da3ggman]

The 0 to Rejection Calc Speedrun might have a new record damn

 

[KLOL506]

Ya I used the full trajectory of the light for the timeframe for mine, that's why it's so low

There's no point in doing so, the speed is constant and not dropping in velocity. This would work if it was a bullet and even then the velocity drop would be minimal, you would still need to use the projectile distance to target with the new speed even in that case. There is not gonna be any velocity drop with light beams unless you shove it through a medium like glass or water.

 

[Saqphire]

There's no point in doing so, the speed is constant and not dropping in velocity. This would work if it was a bullet and even then the velocity drop would be minimal. There is not gonna be any velocity drop with light beams unless you shove it through a medium like glass or water.

The medium it's going through is air and SOL isn't constant in air. And that has nothing to do with using the full trajectory or not because the point is to determine the timeframe of Chariot's full movement; the MFTL calc assumes he started moving when it was already point blank at the coin, which @DavidTPPM already pointed out how that's wrong + that's a more generous assumption than saying he started moving when the light started moving / when Kakyoin screams "now"

This is because the manga doesn't actually show it moving after the light started moving unlike the anime interp + the 2001 OVA supports my interp

 

[KLOL506]

We only care for the swing, not the additional movement Silver Chariot did to get to the coin. If you wanna get specific, just use 200,000 km/sec through air speed instead (But that's just getting too pedantic as most fictions don't care for such a thing like material resistance).

In any case, I'll wait for Chariot190 to clarify further.

 

[Saqphire]

We only care for the swing, not the additional movement Silver Chariot did to get to the coin.

That's what I calced, but M3X said I needed to get that movement here as well + they're both congruent in the feat, unless you're saying Chariot kinda just... levitated there and waited for the light to be super close before swinging OR he started swinging when the light was that close. Which in that case is still an unjustified assumption.

 

[KLOL506]

Then I'll just wait for Chariot's paragraph instead. I just don't find your arguments convincing enough.

 

[Chariot190]

I haven't refreshed, I would like to think when I post, the lot of you listened, didn't derail the thread, post any extra absurd arguments like "Emperor" (we already had this talk like it's Hol's who fast, his Stand's actual Point A to B bullet speed is notably mid af, he can just pivot it fast because he himself is ludicrously fast, one of the rare cases the host is quicker than the Stand's default speed), or Stone Free (don't make me post the funny FTL feat...), or something, and waited patiently.

Do note, this isn't a comprehensive post, I was told by several mods to only tackle these points at a surface level, and then save anything else for a blog and larger Discussion Rule thread, so ya'll won't be getting the secret few dozen statements, feats, etc. but look forward to those I suppose in the future. Also any anime gifs is there because it's 1:1 with the manga and this forum sucks because it only let's you post 5 album links before it starts screwing with it, so the gifs just there to show the same thing so I don't need to post a bunch of embeds with images for a single scene. Also forum sucks, only 20 images a post? Yeah ok guess I'm trimming proof and splitting this into 3...
Anyway:

It makes absolutely zero sense for Polnareff to be Massively FTL when he himself literally concedes inferiority to Hanged Man in the first place in both combat and reaction speed.

And he isn't. Your CRT is already arguing a strawman in the first line.
Polnareff is relativistic.
His Stand is not him. Stands can be, and often are, faster than the host.
This framing is inaccurate, and it doesn't match how we already handle user vs Stand stats on the wiki.
We already split up the speed between them.

But that's notable in and of itself.
People often forget that Pol only knew Hanged Man was SOL, because he had the reactions for it:

And in case you can't parse the panel sequence for whatever reason:

Polnareff himself while not 1:1, is still fast enough to perceive, react, and track Hanged Man while moving at lightspeed, so much so it's the entire reason he knew he was moving at light speed to begin with.

This reads like textbook cherry-picking, it omits far to many critical details that effect the context and validity of the feat.
For one trying to use the narrative you conveniently left out how Pol himself is already in Hanged Man's ballpark by your very own narrative intent and framing.
Now, we already factor this in, it's why Pol is rel on his profile (not MFTL per your disingenuous leading).

Now obviously you're going to say "yeah well Pol is equal to Chariot", based on the fact you literally do below, which we'll get to that, but I'm pointing this out now because it establishes that Pol is comparable to Hanged Man in a vacuum, note; I am not saying he is as fast (it's why he's relativistic as opposed to SOL directly), but he isn't actually being blitzed by it despite your literal false claims in the OP saying he is. He's in the same framing, if he wasn't, they never would have figured out how fast he was to begin with nor how his ability worked.

This matters because Polnareff is literally the one controlling Silver Chariot in the first place which we know is the case because that's how Close Range Stands work in the first place,

Linking a wiki page isn't evidence for a CRT. Please provide scans/primary text. And we know that's the case because that's how WHAT works?
Nice try but that isn't how it works actually. You're conflating commands to mechanics.
If it is how it works, I would like for you to post a scan saying verbatim that:
"a CQC/Power Type Stand can only act when they are given a direct specific command and will only carry out that specific command and doesn't not have cognition/intent/or will outside of that".
If you can not, this entire point in your CRT doesn't even get passed the premise.
You would need to outright prove that Pol needs to mentally control the very swing itself and motion for it to matter, otherwise you're basically arguing a gun can't be fast because the person still needs to press the trigger, or that a jet can't be fast because the pilot still needs to aim and fire. But ok sure, I do have some Stand slop saved here and there anyway, this is very much not comprehensive, and in some cases not even the best examples, but it's what I got at this exact moment and is good enough to shoot this whole topic down.

Stands function on mere intent, and have since Day 1.

Literally start of Part 3 establishes it's not 1:1 every command.

Another stray one from after Part 3 just to show it didn't change or anything.
They say it quite literally dozens and dozens of times actually, this isn't some niche one-off fact, it's a crucial rule and part of the power system.
A Stand can act based on sheer instinct, intent, and emotion.
You're acting like they shove a controller up a Stand's ass and play them like a fighting game character; true, they can do that (in some cases), but do they always?
No, it's even made a point of in dozens of fights that instincts, automatic actions, and even just the will or emotions itself can and must influence a Stand's actions, or they might just act themselves even if the user isn't able to give them directions or guidance.


Another example, picking this one because it was saved right next to the Koichi one, saves time digging for a diff one it didn't even know what was going on yet, merely directing an emotion at a target will cause one's Stand ability to target them, even if they don't know they have a Stand to begin with.
As Josuke and Koichi, and Avdol, say, you guide a Stand based on instinct and emotive intent. You don't straight up command every action, that's impossible in most cases, some of said cases being the Stand is to fast to actually do that with.

Of course, you can, like obviously if Jotaro goes "Plat, rip their balls off", Plat will rip their balls off because Jotaro has the mental fortitude to give Star Platinum commands, if he wants to.
But if Jotaro goes "Plat, protect me", Plat will protect him even if Jotaro didn't mentally puppet his Stand in real time to "do a low block and counter by kicking them in the dick".
In fact, you say CQC-Type Stands have to be controlled by the user 1:1, every lil minute action so surely they MUST be equal in speed?
Hell let's run down the actual poster-boy for this type of Stand, the Stand that defines all the rules for this type (which Chariot is hard noted to be the same type as below).

Even a thing at the start:

By default, a Stand acts on its own will, or subconscious emotions of the host and plays them out to the best of its ability.
Jotaro never said "hey brutalize these dudes", in fact he says himself he had to command it not to do that.
Shortly thereafter:

Again, Jotaro himself says he isn't responsible for what Plat will do. Moreover he even says he had to stop him from skewering Avdol.

Why? Because Stands act on the emotional intent or subconscious intent, they will protect, act alone, etc. if not directly commanded. They are their own entities a good chunk of the time.

Plat is even noted by Jotaro to be more savage than he is, i.e. personality quirk unique to the Stand. All because Plat brutalized HG a lil bit wee to much.

Sometimes it isn't even that, everyone likes to point out how cool and epic Plat doing this is:

Taking effect while Jotaro is barely even cognizant (if at all, we see his eyes fade and the death fog), because he stopped his own heart.
Restarting his own heart as to maul DIO. That wasn't Jotaro telling him to do it chat, he did it himself as he already got the memo.

One of the very first things we see Jotaro do is have his Stand automatically protect him even, without knowing what this thing even was, because again, you don't straight up puppet a Stand's every actions with mental thought by default.
Or anyone remember the time when Plat in Part 6 was directly stated to have attacked instinctively without command from a braindead Jotaro?

Hell no. 99% of the time it's just vague intent directed at a target like "hurt him" or "protect me".

But it goes without saying that Jotaro can control Plat too. This doesn't mean a Stand won't act to protect its host if the host can't act or command it as we just saw above.
That isn't a special trait, there's no such thing as a "autonomous type power type Stand", unless you mean auto-pilot Stands like SHA but they're doing their own thing, but that's not what you're talking about right?
You specifically linked power types as MUST BE CONTROLLED DIRECTLY to take action, the article even uses Purple Haze as a example which undercuts you by the way as we'll see.
But by that logic Plat, can't act on his own because he's a CQC Type Power Stand, exactly like Chariot specifically.

"Direct attack type: Star Platinum: It attacks the opponent using weapons or fists. Its range is short, so it cannot attack enemies that are far away, but when it gets in close, its power and speed are tremendous. Besides "Star Platinum", "Silver Chariot" and "The World", among others, fall into this type.
So for reference, Chariot is the exact same type of Stand as Star Platinum in case there was any doubt.
Even not CQC Stands apply though.


Even the most untalkative Stand that we never see do anything on its own really, is noted to have personal preferences, it likes to hide in things, and will instinctively act because of it.
It's still controlled and commanded though, they all are, in fact that's the entire plot of Part 3.
Stand by themselves aren't always controllable, if you can't control it, they go rogue, they might even kill you.
Some lines:

In Holly's case, because she inherited the Joestar bloodline, DIO's curse took effect, causing a Stand to manifest within her. Under the same conditions, Jotaro was able to master his Stand due to his inherent mental strength, but Holly, with her gentle nature, lacked the ability to control her Stand.

~ Standology Go!Go!​

idk how to remove that I copy pasted it from the WIP Stand blog...

The Stand is controlled by one's own mental strength and fighting instinct. Therefore, a person with a calm and mild personality cannot operate a Stand. On the contrary, it can have an adverse effect on the body, and some people have died because of it.

~ JoJo 6251​

Case in point, Jotaro only controls Star Platinum because he has the mental will to do so, otherwise he wouldn't, and Plat would act on its own, like we see it do, a handful of times. This whole topic doesn't even matter to your argument, but it's wrong regardless.
また, 守護霊のような性格もあり, 本体の人生に影響を与える. From the same scan above, next to Holy.
"Also, it has a personality like a guardian spirit, and it gives influence to the user's life".
Kind of a undercutting statement to have, noting Stands by default have a protective personality on page that names Chariot directly below.

CQC Types can, in fact, act autonomously depending on the situation because they're all sentient, some just don't show it outwardly or have enough control over it to tame it.
If anything, you'd be better off treating Stands like Pokemon 90% of the time, they're aware, can take actions themselves, and will fill in blanks where needed.
But I'm just gonna hammer this in further, so nobody says early installment bullshit either:

Another power type CQC Stand is noted to have its own quirks, its own intellect (even if low in this example given it embodies Fugo's anger, as opposed to something like Chariot embodying Pol's chivalry or Koichi's latent confidence), and more notably because it's not being actively controlled, it's acting on its own and trying to but all the same, one of many more examples where we learn a Stand of the same type can, and will, act on its own to fill in the blanks, that manual control is selective, that a Stand can infer and have their own baseline, how good that baseline is is subject to the Stand in question, but it's always there.

Or better yet, a whole arc dedicated to showing Stand's subject to outside control:

The Chariot Requiem arc outright shows that Stands are their own entities, they can be manipulated and made hostile by outside forces instead of being under complete control. Made super obvious with Sex Pistols given it speaks, it's literally just mind control (literally, it makes Stands go berserk as per noted vel).
Effects Sticky Fingers to with Bruno even questioning his Stand as to what the hell it's doing. Notable given:
From the perspective of range, all Stands can be broadly classified into two types: "close-range type (Type A)" and "long-range type (Type B)." As a trend, close-range types often possess immense power and excel at direct blows or destruction (e.g., Silver Chariot, Crazy Diamond, Sticky Fingers). On the other hand, long-range types tend to utilize special abilities to carry out indirect attacks (e.g., Hierophant Green, Echoes ACT1, Beach Boy).
Chariot and Sticky Fingers are the same type of Stand.

But moreso, the entire arc is a cause of Polnareff's ability to control his Stand having since declined (as in, he used to be capable, but now due to his injuries, he cannot)

Because Polnareff is no longer able to give manual commands to it, the Stand acts on its own (the biography in the manga itself even saying it's precisely because of the decline it is simply acting out on its own), and Pol himself says it's merely acting out the last actual wish he had, to "protect the arrow" (which was given while it was still Silver, obviously, in case anyone wants to attempt to argue it somehow shifted types and gained sentience when it's framed as simply an inability to control it now due to regression of one's own will).
So right off the bat, ignoring how Stands in general act out on this premise, merely follow commands, not puppeted 1:1 like a video game character, and will infer, fill in the blanks, and more, Chariot itself is a confirmed case of a Stand with its own cognition that will simply act out the user's intent to the best of its ability.

Some yap about auto types even actually are in there too (that being abilities that perform a function regardless of user's input, will, or influence, it's not that they do things automatically, it's more that they can't be controlled and follow a set of rules), due to that trade-off, they don't follow the proportional range rule either making them rigorous.

Another example, Weather Report with his close-distance power type Stand, was protected by his Stand even while trying to kill himself numerous times, even further, due to his rage being targeted at everything around him, his Stand passively started targeting the whole city despite Weather himself not even knowing his Stand was, why? Because Stands can be influenced merely by one's emotions and will, and they will act accordingly to those feelings if they're capable. You don't need direct commands, you only need an intent.

There is literally dozens upon dozens of examples, that's just what I had saved tbh, but your entire argument falls apart the instant it's shown that Stands don't need direct 1:1 control, but rather just need directions, guidance, or intent and they simply follow it to their best ability, and thus Chariot isn't restricted by Polnareff's limitations while acting.
In the Hanged Man feat itself, all Pol needs to do is tell Chariot when and where to attack, everything after that, like the actual slash itself, is the Stand's doing and action. And that is exactly what happens.
I could go on, and on, I will continue to do so if asked. There's more, but I'm sure this tip is enough to convey your very premise faulty.

it isn't an autonomous or posthumous stand like Sheer Heart Attack or Anubis for example. So if Silver Chariot is MFTL, so is Polnareff in reaction and combat speed. Which is wrong according to the man himself.

Actually, it is autonomous, it's also just blind, as we get to later, most Stands are autonomous they just follow their user's will, again like a Pokemon or summon.
But as above, you're twisting established rules in the setting itself just to make it seem like you have a point and it isn't slick.

This breaks down the instant you remember stuff like:

Here, by your logic Pol himself also gets speed boosted a ton due to emotions?
If Pol and Chariot are 1:1 according to you, and that however fast Chariot is, Pol must also be that fast, how can Chariot get faster without Pol also getting faster if Pol is, in your own words, apparently having to control every single minute action 1:1 in real time? Hell Chariot legit goes sicko mode under this speed amp. Thrice+2.

How is Pol doing every single one of these?
That isn't how that works, in any situation.
Like that right there shows us Chariot can be faster than Pol even under your own rules, as only Chariot gets faster, so if Pol and Chariot are equal, but one gets faster, yet is going wild and attacking at that speed, well, that disproves the premise, there is no rule saying they need to be, or even are the same, we know flat out they are different. This isn't uncommon, it's a stated fact on how Stands work, emotions effect output, this includes speed, obvious stated examples include, well Polanreff's Chariot, but also Josuke's CD, Jotaro's Plat, Jolyn's Stone Free, Koichi's Echoes, and many more.

You also seemed to have forgotten a very important rule for Stands as well, almost none of them have static values.

The power and speed of a Stand are directly proportional to its distance from the main body. The closer the Stand is, the more power and speed it has. There is a limit to the distance it can stray from the body, which is the "range" of the Stand.

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~ JoJo 6251​

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A Stand’s range and power are inversely proportional. (However, the "effects" brought about by the Stand are not limited to this.)

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~ Standology Go!Go!​

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idk how to remove these boxes chat, send help...

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スタンドの射程距離とパワーは比例する （ただしスタンドのもたらす“効果”には限りはない） The range and power of a Stand are proportional. (However, there is no limit to the "effects" a Stand can bring about.)

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A Stand's speed gets higher or lower depending on the distance they are from the main body.

Per your own logic, if Pol and Chariot are always 1:1, that very basic rule wouldn't make sense. And note, again, Chariot is outright stated to fall under this rule.
And it's explicitly proportional, we see some shit for ones with big ranges (High Priestess is a good example, at 200m it's tiny, but over 7m away it's as big as a building).

 

[Chariot190]

Actually, I'll do you a favor and show you exactly how this speed rule works with a Stand that's both sublight, blitzing something that blitzes the host, on a sol target.
Straight up tick every box off at once.
Crazy Diamond: A close-distance Power-Type (same type as Chariot, see scan above where SC is listed as same type as CD and SF).
Normally, at least at this point in the story, Crazy Diamond is slower than RHCP, a Stand stated to be lightspeed (and not just within the wires but ya'll ain't ready for that, we'll do that in the Part 4 update/SOL blog).

RHCP urges Josuke to abuses the rules, so he can amp his own speed, to try to replicate a "Plat lv" punch, and, it works.
Josuke using the very basic rules of how Stands function, was able to make his Stand punch a whole blitz above her his own perception.
Despite it being obvious given RHCP is literally telling him to do it in panel.

Says that because CD follows the whole strong/speed = range rule, it can approach Plat (P4). Obviously aligning with RHCP telling him to abuse the rules to spike up his stats to try to throw a punch like Plat, given that's literally the citation and example it's using...
And elsewhere, same instance:

"He was being careless, but still surpassed even Otoishi's Stand, which was confident in its speed".
Direct statement that CD's speed overtook RHCP's (who again: SOL). SOL is something Josuke is not though, obviously (Koichi says Josuke is not sol while tripling down that Jotaro is funnily).

Ignoring the hilarity that CD blitzing the shit out of a SOL Stand isn't actually on Plat's level, very explicitly (yet still making him FTL).
So under your logic, what's going? How is it possible for CD, a Stand that can be commanded by Josuke, to also be so fast he blitzes a dude who blitzes him?
This is rhetorical: a Stand's speed is separate from their host, it can vary depending on mental status, the range they're operating at, and more, easily surpassing the reactions of mental input of their host. And yes, a Stand can even move so fast it blitzes something that would blitz their own host, we see this countless times.

It is simply the way they function, the exception is automated Stands, because they explicitly function as an extension to the ability itself.

What I'm getting at here is, how in the hell is Pol and Chariot's speed intrinsically identical and must be the same when Chariot's speed changes depending on operating distance and rage? Just as a basic feature? There's never going to be a time they'd be perfectly 1:1 even if they were similar.

Chariot speed amp is mentioned multiple times by the way.
"Polnareff's Stand...To think it could attack this fast, and from so far away........I hadn't heard that......"
I'm not getting into the actual linguistics of the characters used but this is Ice straight being shocked Chariot is this fast (and even breaking his range rules), stacks it, and then even says it wasn't in the info he was given on them.

Even just the basic mechanics shoots down this argument as a "must premise".
Polnareff could be literally normal human speed, and Chariot could be straight up infinite speed, he doesn't need to manually think Chariot doing the full slash if he just wills Chariot at a target with the intent "aim there" or "protect me".
As long as Chariot has the direction, it's no different than someone pointing a gun and firing it, the bullet is not the gunslinger, even if the gunslinger themselves needed to know where to shoot.

There was also a moment where Silver Chariot was capable of intercepting Hanged Man from a further distance away, but not only did Polnareff himself get blitzed, that interception was only possible because he knew of it's trajectory.

If Polnareff "got blitzed", then Hanged Man lands the hit before Chariot can do anything.
But in the exact moment you're referencing, Silver Chariot cuts Hanged Man just fine. That's literally the definition of not getting blitzed. Saying he got blitzed while describing a successful interception is a oxymoron and incoherent.

And "he only did it because he knew the trajectory" doesn't act as a legitimate excuse. Knowing the line-of-travel helps him set up an interception, sure, but it doesn't remove the speed requirement. Chariot still has to move into position and swing before Hanged Man arrives. If anything, that admission concedes: Polnareff couldn't track it normally, at least perfectly anyway, cool, so he used knowledge/geometry to make the intercept possible - and then Chariot still executed it in time.

Polnareff is not Chariot. The fact you think Stands and their users scale 1:1 in speed is such a gross misunderstanding of how the verse works that honestly that simple flaw alone dismantles your whole post. But, I want to actually comment on that feat anyway.

You mean this correct? I've actually calced this before, it wasn't super good, but it is good enough to shootdown your argument's premise.
There is only about 1.5m tops between the child's eye, and the edge of Chariot's slash arc (on that trajectory path). I'm not angsizing this shit again, maybe later when I have time, but it's close enough, might even be a high-end given the kid doesn't even come up to Pol's ass, well anyway. This is more proof of concept. Based on the arc motion we see in panel, the swing begins drawn back behind Chariot, and he does a full motion, ending with his hand on his opposite side, now to be safe, let's just say he did half that, to where his sword is in front of him, as it would have to be to tag Hanged Man on his drive by.
Chariot's arms like

• 0.7131 m
• 0.8789 m (Blade).

Just half assing it to give a rough idea
arm = 0.7131 m
sword = 0.8789 m
sqrt(0.7131^2 + 0.8789^2) = 1.13180 m
Which gets like 3.56170 m arc tip point for a 180 swing.

2.3c? That sounds low, except it's over two times as fast as Hanged Man even in your anti-example, even worse, it's downplay, I already know vaguely the full quantifiable here, still not to high but it is like 10c, which still debunks your point if your entire argument is Chariot must be sub-light because Pol is.

If your "gotcha" simply serves to show that Chariot is capable of slashing faster than light should Pol tell it where to aim, you're doing a bad job proving that Chariot is, in fact, not faster than the thing he just outsped after it was already in motion, twice.
This makes it consistent, not contradictory.

In other words, Silver Chariot needs to aim dodge the light. Even Centerfold, the user of Hanged Man, acknowledges that Polnareff has to aim dodge the attacks and when he becomes unpredictable, Silver Chariot literally cannot do sh*t against him. If Silver Chariot was MFTL, the unpredictability of a SOL attack wouldn't matter here.

This is very disingenuous.

This right? You're arguing against yourself now.
J. Geil, knowing that they could just do it again, makes it so there's so many places he could be they can't actually keep track of him. Using their refusal to harm innocents, and the now dozens of places he could be, Polnareff, now has a hard time tracking him.
Because yeah I'm sure he would? Why wouldn't he?

Obviously, it will be difficult, that is the point, that is his whole plan "yeah you can def hit me, but what if I make everything chaotic, add in a bunch of civs, routes, and make it so you lose track of me all while being unable to attack because it's crowded". You are asking that someone who is relative but still slower, to track this extremely small object that could be in over 26 places at minimum, using basic math (and subtracting how it can't move to the eye next to it), this means there's a total of 650 trajectories this thing can be on and over 26 places at a given time, in a circular crowd.


But I mentioned this above, and now it's time to elaborate.
Reminder Chariot specifically is blind and is not a Stand that can fight without Pol's directions regardless of speed.
Reminder the immediate Pol fight prior to Hanged Man in the same volume establishes this trait specifically.
Reminder that despite being extremely fast, due to its blindness, it must rely on Polnareff's guidance to some degree to even know where to attack, and if Pol doesn't know where to attack, Chariot can't attack there for him because he can't see shit.
They have a whole fight establishing this specific caveat to this particular Stand.
And when that caveat gets removed, i.e. Pol goes "hey attack here", Chariot now has the guidance and knows where to attack.

Gap so large in the time it takes for the former enemy he could not tag due to this weakness to even attack once he's omega ultra blitzed and shredded.
All because he can finally get the guidance he needs to attack a thing that Pol himself was to slow to properly react toward (literally pointed out that it was Pol's reflexes that were to slow, not his Stand's), all because the Stand itself in this case simply can't see as a trade-off.

Which, is another point.
Chariot's actual attack speed >>> Ebony Devil > Polnareff's reactions/commands.
All established in that exact same fight. Which circle back to the start of this post.

If Pol is quick enough to somewhat track Hanged Man (hence he knows it's SOL to begin with), yet Chariot's actual attack speed is a super ultra blitz above something quicker, how are we seriously saying Chariot's attack speed is equal to Polnareff's reflexes? The exact same volume as Hanged Man establishes an explanation for every single argument you have. And it's not just Polnareff. Ignoring how Stands function, commanded, and more already dismantling this notion, it wouldn't make sense as an argument either way.
Hey that reminds me of this though.

Stands are almost always faster than the actual user. Stands might be fast but you still need to compensate, this is commonplace, a user's limitations do not effect the top speed output of their Stand. Some must work around it, some do scale, some don't, and some are even faster than their Stand. There's no correlation.

You're actually saying Chariot and Polnareff are just 1:1 based on your own ignorance, and/or, misconceptions of the power system, that's absurd, it's not even uncommon for Stands to blitz their own user, see:

Or the few dozen other times, this isn't uncommon, in fact it's normal, the fact you're conveniently leaving all this info out is just a tad suspect.

And fyi, that isn't some one off blind gag, Chariot is literally just blind, why do you think they needed a TV in The Lovers fight?
It wasn't for Kakyoin, he can see through HG, because most actually don't have that quirk, even in that same chapter:

The irony that in the same chapter they show linked vision against the very enemy they're facing (despite Pol needing to get a live-feed to guide his Stand).
It is normal for Stands and host to be able to link senses, Chariot is simply an exception (the working theory is its a trade off for the armor based on a few scans).

Another example from the bog-standard.

If your argument hinges on "why didn't Chariot do something?", we know why, he can't, but not because he's to slow, but because he's a canonical outlier. It might be sentient, it might be ludicrously fast, it might be a lot of things, but his ass ain't DareDevil; imagine a boxer who would lay you out but they still need to be told where to strike. That doesn't effect the speed of the strike itself, but it does mean they need a lil help.

In fact, that's literally the whole point of Polnareff defeating Centerfold in the first place

English name detected; Opinion rejected I fear smh.

, he had to force Hanged Man to move a direction that Polnareff knew he would be going so he could tag him; if Silver Chariot was MFTL, then there would be zero stakes in that fight whatsoever.

This "if Chariot was MFTL there'd be zero stakes" take is absurd, it only works if you pretend the fight was only a raw speed check.

Hanged Man isn't "hard to hit" because Chariot is too slow, quite literally actually but we'll get to that below. He's hard to hit because he's basically untargetable unless you already know his next exit and force a straight line if you're blind af and your host isn't that fast and Jotaro is across the city having a ciggy.
He's in reflections, he's only exposed while he's moving between reflections (which is another point, they can't actually hit him if he turtles, Pol tries that right away and it does nothing:


and you don't get to react to "where" if you don't know "where" in the first place. So Pol does the only sane thing: he forces the destination, force the line, then intercepts the one path Hanged Man is stuck taking with his ultra omega fast Stand, which, he does. Twice.

And tension?

You know there's a lot of layers to the fight beyond just speed?
Look, there comes a point when battleboarding goes to far, when you focus on the singular unga bunga number facet of the fight and ignore all the other details of it that might add tension or complicate things from a straight brawl. And given you're now ignoring how Stands function as a whole, various character quirks, fight context, and outright child hostages as to prevent just straight skewering (the same tactic he uses later on but worse by the way, as to prevent Pol from just slicing around him to tag him, a fact he points out himself "No more running! Unless you want to hurt these people!" (as shown above).
This is a non-argument, it's cherry picking a singular aspect and acting like that's all there was to it, ignoring the explanations to that aspect, and then using your own cherry picking as an excuse in how "there'd be no tension" as some sort of narrative intent point?

Honestly, this is just conjecture, but hey, thought experiment: you were talking about tension right? Don't you find it just a bit odd that the Hanged Man fight involves the slowest person in the squad (Kakyoin), a Stand that is blind despite its absurd speed, and the explicit FTL characters are just so conveniently not there, with the Stand in question, by sheer luck, happens to have a very particular weakness that complicates the fight that is both established in the very prior fight regarding it and its speed output, and then called back to later anyway? Also I guess Avdol being taken out (AoE nukes HM).
I would wager that's very much intentional to create that tension in the first place but alas, we don't index conjecture, we index what we actually see and know.

But really, if this was a legitimate argument. Why didn't he do that for Ebony Devil?
"Your Stand is a Stand that can't fight! That shit is literally blind as a built in trade-off! And you, personally, are too slow to even hit ME on reaction! So I'm blitzing the shit out of you, but the instant you know where I am, as to tell your Stand where to attack, it is so fast that it blitzes me a hundred times over because a Stand and its user don't need to be, and often, aren't the same speed!" - basically a whole fight setting this up and is ironically Chariot's fight preceding Hanged Man.

So yeah, no, "if Chariot was MFTL Pol would have to be and there'd be no stakes" is just missing the point on quite a few levels:
A Stand can absolutely outpace its user. The user isn't piloting it like a mecha, they're giving intent/commands like a Pokemon or summon.
Chariot being stupid fast but needs guidance to USE that speed says nothing about the actual speed used and has zero contradictions within the Hanged Man fight itself when it succeeds hitting him every single time, and more importantly, after he begins moving each time.
Stakes come from like ten different things, including the speed, but not on Chariot's end, the fact you think that's the entire fight or would trivialize it is simply ignoring every single piece of context.

This isn't even a real argument, it's one from ignorance and scrutiny. Fights have multiple moving parts: targeting, knowledge, positioning, windows of vulnerability, and resource limits. Being faster doesn't magically give you information or guarantee a damn thing is available on demand if there's a dozen factors preventing one from just blitzing and one shotting.

Another anti-statement to mention is that Araki himself was saying that stands can't move faster than the speed of light usually. Obviously, this doesn't count Jotaro and DIO because of the former's FTL statements and the fact that they aren't usual people in the verse, however because of how we index the scaling, most stands are usually MFTL, which isn't even correct here according to Araki lmao

Except that isn't Araki. It's editorial paraphrasing an older part 5 interview where Araki explains that people had trouble understanding Stands so he tried to make them internally consistent and follow some sort logic (case dependent no less). He himself never mentions lightspeed, that's editorial going "shit what is a rule of physics, uhm, OH STUFF CAN'T BE FTL!" and using that as an example.
Doesn't help Stands don't have any mass but shrug.
Oh but here's an actual Araki quote:

対談：康芳夫×荒木飛呂彦

校長　謎の大物・康芳夫 火の玉スクール！　ゲスト：荒木飛呂彦（漫画家） 月刊キング（2008・3）より ―　お…

yapou.club

荒木飛呂彦:
"超能力という言葉だけでは片付けられない, 物理的に説明できない領域ってあるじゃないですか? それを読者に具体的に示したいと思ったのが"スタンド"という絵による表現になったんです."
Something like, "Isn't there a realm that can't be explained with by just saying psychic powers - a realm you can't explain physically? Wanting to show that specifically to readers is what turned into the visual expression we call Stands".

Now wait, "physically? that isn't physics", yeah well that's where you messed up lads, in Japanese, "物理" means "physics" / "physical principles (material cause-and-effect)" type shit. So "物理的に" means "in physical terms", i.e. "by a physics-based/material explanation".

Here it directly modifies "説明できない" ("can't be explained"), SO: "物理的に説明できない領域" = "a domain that can't be explained via physics/material causality (physical laws/mechanisms)".

It does NOT mean:
"bodily/physically (as in the body)", you'd say something like "身体的に" or "肉体的に", or "literally/actually"? Well hell that would be "実際に" or "文字通り"

So the line reads like talking about things that can't be accounted for by a physics-based explanation, not just "superpowers" as a label, and there's legit like ten interviews like that, earliest one I saw was 2004 but hell, guess I'm adding them to the blog after this.

The worst part of this, ignoring the fact the actual thing it's calling back to doesn't say or mention light, or even physics thinking on it (actual quote is him saying coherent, that they need to follow a principle, which yeah, they do, very Stand does bar a few like BIG), this STILL wouldn't matter, the source material takes precedence, unless you all want infinite speed Part 7 via like 5 statements? Though given arguments below I'd think not, correct?

Problem 2: Anti-Feats
Silver Chariot being MFTL also makes the scenario where he fights the Sun pretty much an illogical fight because that Stand, which is accepted to have lightspeed attacks because of the numerous statements of it using light in general, makes SC struggle to even react, even when the former Stand was firing from a distance further than 100 metres away. Someone with MFTL reactions would literally statue the Sun's beams here with short movements yet the Sun is clearly going relative to his reaction speed.

Dude. If your best anti-feat is like 4 FTL+ and a maybe MFTL feat, for the character you're arguing otherwise, I'm going to say that's a pretty damn good look for consistency.

Issue 1:
That claim is incorrect / contradicted by the panels blatantly.

Jotaro and Polnareff, actually react to the beams before they're even visible or anywhere close to them. What are you trying to pull here? Polnareff was never blitzed by these, and he reacts to them while they're 100m away. Every single part of your sentence is wrong.
Not that it matters because again, Polnareff isn't Chariot, but your posts are outright no longer following the actual source material anymore. If your arguments are this incoherent, we have a huge problem with accuracy. If anything it supports Pol's rel status, he reacts to SOL attacks quick enough to warn Kakyoin who is 100m up in the sky that "hey, your ass is about to be slammed with some sort of thing, watch out bro!".

Issue 2:

Where's the struggle?
I'm only seeing someone deflect four Hanged Men simultaneously?
This is literally why Hanged Man isn't an outlier.

Chariot basically replicates blocking 4 SOL attacks at the same time. And oh I hear you say, "he knew the were coming", yep, but that's where the simultaneity comes in.

What I'm getting from this is that you're not exactly the greatest at parsing feats. "clearly relative", based on what, him negging every one that came at him, deflecting them successfully, and doing it so quick enough where the beams only moved cms between deflections?
Which if you don't know what that means, means that Chariot blocks and deflects one, pivots his arm, pivots his sword, the blocks the next one, and the beam he deflected prior has only moved a tiny bit, and he does this four times in a row.

For reference:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AmonInChains/JJBA_-_Silver_Chariot_deflect_The_Sun_beams

FTL+ for just the last elbow pivot (for reference, if his arm wasn't bent, it'd be like MFTL too), and basically MFTL for the sword pivot (this matters, given Plat can box, and King Crimson can too), give or take anyway, kinks being worked out but it's around there. More of a proof of concept calc, till we get the ultra omega HD JOJO-D scans anyway, but it's most certainly blatantly FTL and not exactly 1c.

If your big MFTL anti-feat is that far above what you're proclaiming is the cap, that isn't an anti-feat, that's support.
So congratulations, you successfully pointed out how Chariot, the Stand, can neg diff multiple Hanged Man at once at ludicrously higher values than 1c in the FTL+ to MFTL range just fine?

 

[Chariot190]

Another problem I've seen with this chain scaling is the assumption that Alternate Diego's stand THE WORLD has the same stats as Dio's THE WORLD because they simply look the same and act the same. This is just a clearcut association fallacy where it cherry picks traits to get granted the scaling here because we forget that in Part 7, bullet feats are literally seen as top tier. We know this is the case because Johnny, Diego, Funny Valentine and many others struggle against bullet feats all the time and this is relevant because The World was losing a race to Johnny's nails, the same nails that went relative to bullets here.

Ah yes, Diego "I can literally statue bullets" Brando, struggling against bullets...
You know he's never been hit by a gun right?

Oh but someone mentioned Act 1 is like a bullet?

Yeah, you're right. You know how many feats that gives that go way beyond what you're suggesting? "Top tier threat" right? It's literal fodder. It's basically calc ammo.

Nothin personnal kiddo...
Oh and before I hear anything like "well that would make Tusk slow-"

There's a multitude of statements like this; the better the spin, the better the speed, and power.
And there's also statements straight up stating they get faster.
Not that I should have to explain basic self-evident plans to anyone so they don't make extremely faulty downgrades with such arguments like "bro Diego is threatened by bullets!" (literally never happens, in fact his most common feat is statuing bulletry), but the plan was to downgrade Act 1 to transonic based on statements and bullet comparability, then Act 2 to MHS because it has 5 MHS feats and is noted to be exponentially faster (so there goes your whole gun argument right there, if Act 2 is whipping out absurdly higher mach feats and is also directly stated to be faster than a gun, how is anything at Act 2's speed merely gun level? By statements they'd eclipse guns, which, well regardless, of this falsehood of a strawman, that is in fact just a strawman.
The ultimate plan was to keep just like 3 characters MFTL, and everyone else scales elsewhere, but imagine waiting, doing things right, and with a anime right around the corner, why jump the gun if we can get time frames and clarifications to calc the very speed feats you're complaining about.

By the way, every character you mentioned neg diffs a gun at some point or never interacts with one, don't quite appreciate the misinformation. I'm pretty sure you're conflating Tusk Act 1 to later speeds or the True Man's World fight as if that also isn't Act 1 (Gyro also gets a speed amp after too).

So are we gonna say the bullets (and also horses) are MFTL now? Brother please , just because the stands act and look the same, that doesn't mean the stats are the same.

No, we aren't, nor do we have to. Despite your egregious strawman and lack of actual scans to any of your evidence (go ahead, find me an example where Diego fails to dodge a bullet not on purpose?). If you took the time to make an effort here instead of just, well I'm not sure what, if you read the part you'd know it isn't that simple.

Actually, I'd be more liable to say they're the same because we're told alt universe Stands are generally identical to each other unless the user's mental fortitude differs, and given Alt Diego is listed as DIO, not Diego. And even says they act the same, have the same thought processes, and so forth, those two combined on top of a few other pieces of hard evidence, I'd wager is more telling. But given this entire section is strawmanning vibes, I honestly shouldn't be expected to argue your own lack of proof.

Also wait horses? You mean the things that don't fight? I pray that you're not trying to say them partaking in a long distance jockey race and using horses means they have to be horse speed because of movement speed?
For the fun of it:

Image Chest

Post with 1 views.

imgchest.com

Gyro throwing a Steel Ball faster than horses (very start of Part 7).

Hell here's Gyro throwing it at horse speed to exploit the fact Diego can't see things to slow so doesn't even comprehend it's there.

Problem 3: Anime Usage
The calculation uses the anime to justify the distances that both entities move, but the issue is that the anime itself isn't even accepted to be canon to the main series. From that standard alone, the calc shouldn't even be used.

Yep. Even been going out of my way to recalc feats that used anime with just manga, outside of basic stuff like timeframes that a manga can't functionally give anyway, ya know that recent anime thread canon slop I had involvement in right? You don't need to state the obvious.

So why are you complaining about it before we have all the calcs ready? Be patient and wait, as you aren't helping, you're actively causing extra problems.
Your whole thread is incoherent in intent too.
"idc as long as we get it another way", ok so why are you jumping the gun instead of letting people do things? You know how many FTL feats there are? It isn't one, it isn't two, there's like 30 of these things we need calced, we have some, and some are an actual pain in the ass like the aforementioned sun calc, angsizing the same panel like 16 times isn't fun. And it isn't just that, between AP, hax, and other shit, this isn't some bog-standard DB thread where people make a CRT once a week just to have it undone the next, do it right or not at all.
If you can't even be bothered to help out, don't complain, or at least have the decency to ask the supporters if things being worked on.

Could you imagine if I did that? I was writing fixes and how to correct all those DS calcs so that whole fandom wouldn't be stuck scrambling having no idea what to salvage, honestly if people are fine with doing stuff like this maybe I shouldn't, would definitely save my a bunch of time I don't have to expend.

Regardless, the manga version is also MFTL? In fact it's likely higher then the anime version if you don't include the time dilation, this doesn't help your case whatsoever.

Problem 4: Calculation Assumptions
The calculation itself pretty much assumes that Silver Chariot did all of that distance when the light moved a miniscule one, which is a very extraordinary assumption. While yes, in the anime those distances were what was happening in the feat, that's not necessarily what happened in the manga because all we see is Silver Chariot react to Kakyoin scream "NOW" and then we see SC appear; there is nothing that speaks against the conservative interpretation that Silver Chariot moved as the light started to move in the manga or even before that.

First off; it's Pol saying "Now!", the fact you think it's Kakyoin doesn't make sense, why the hell would it be him telling Chariot to strike?
That paragraph is legitimate grasping and fails to follow the context or paneling properly, and it breaks the scene's logic ironic as that might be:

1. "He said NOW, but we don't know if that's when he actually attacks" is ong going to give me an aneurysm.
What else could "NOW" mean in this context? It's a timed cue. It's literally the command his Stand is using for the trap. If "NOW" doesn't mean "attack right now", then it's not a cue, it's meaningless dialogue.
(Also again: it's Polnareff saying it, not Kakyoin. So it's even more directly "my Stand, do it NOW".)

2. The "he could've been moving before / already there" claim is contradicted by the manga paneling itself.
We see the "NOW!" moment, and Chariot is not already in position. Then we see Chariot appear and intercept in the tiny window. There is no "maybe he was already there" unless you're straight-up claiming the manga is lying to your face, he is physically not present, the PoV isn't zoomed enough to obscure him if he actually was present, and not by a "maybe" amount, this whole argument is straight up not looking at the pretty pictures.

3. This isn't "conservative", it's adding new events the manga does not show or imply, and even outright contradicts.
Manga sequencing is continuous by default. If you want a hidden timing gap where Polnareff gets extra time to pre-position his Stand, despite the fact he initiated it, despite the fact we don't see Chariot present till after a certain cue where Hanged Man is already such a distance away, YOU need evidence for that gap. You don't get to assert it, because it's not real.

4. The whole plan is: force Hanged Man's path (coin-to-coin), then react on the transfer. If Chariot can just start early or already be there, then the whole "force the direction" setup becomes pointless theatrics. The trap only works because the timing window is tight and the reaction is on cue.

5. "We won't use the anime"? Ok, yeah, sure, yet cross-media consistency still matters as a sanity check if it's as vague (it isn't) as you're claiming.
It's not just the DP anime: games/OVA/anime adaptations consistently stage it the same way. Polnareff says "NOW", Chariot attacks on "NOW", not before. If your reading is somehow different from every single piece of media adapting this feat, yet they're all the same, ALL while the manga shows what they're showing anyway, this isn't an argument, it's flat-out denial.

Differences aside, they're all consistent in at least this single aspect. Chariot only comes out at "now!", and blitzes it fyi Araki supervised the OVA and scripts, not that's canon, but just saying.
Polnareff gives the cue ("NOW"), then Chariot immediately moves and cuts into the transfer window. Pretending "NOW" might mean "sometime actually before he was just completely invisible", well tbh I'm not sure what but it sure as hell isn't viable here.
Interpretation is not an excuse for just not following what is actually drawn.

Unless Kakyoin screams "now" at speeds massively faster than light of course

No. First off, Pol tacking basically the whole time to command his Stand, yet his Stand coming out and blitzing in that leftover tiny window, exacerbates everything and proves my point. Pol somewhat relative, Chariot very much not so.

But...talking is a free action, ya'll know this, unless you want to use this as a point against every verse above transonic?
Funnily enough, anyone remember the time Caesar created a whole trap, locking in Wham so he couldn't dodge or move (every buble cutter was lethal, he was completely surrounded, etc.)
And then Caesar had a whole yap-off while natural sunlight was deflecting through his lenses?

I mean if Caesar can yap at lightspeeds, why can't literally anyone else?

Here's RHCP cursing while moving at SOL (stated) in wiring, before he finishes going to the nearest line.
There's quite a bit of this, in fact, all the same, the very premise is wrong, but talking at impossible speeds as a speed argument in the big 26?

Furthermore, the anime version of the scene blatantly contradicts established statements and feats in the manga itself, which I established in the other sections above.

No they don't, it simply contradicts what you want to be true, not what is actually true.
Your above argument was quite literally "maybe he was secretly there despite that being impossible as the depth and PoV of each relevant panel would have showed him if he was and also Pol saying now wasn't an indicator, an yeah every adaption shows the same A>B>C sequence but ya know it might not be that".

Established statements? Like what, that Chariot can easily cut something moving at light speed, that Plat is FTL, that a whole slew of things? All you've done is ignore established facets, whether it's claiming Chariot and Pol must share identical speeds because you ultra simplified how Stands even function, or even just basic speed amps and debuffs via existing at certain distances. And feats in the manga? Which ones? Chariot deflecting multiple Hanged Men at once basically?

I'm not going to litigate that tangent here lad. Your argument fell apart the instant you hinged it all on Polnareff being a certain speed, not the Stand.

Problem 5: Outlier
Even without all of the problems in general, the feat is not even close to being consistent in the first place because this is the only feat in the verse that gets this high in speed. The only other feat in the verse that's even close would be Kars' blocking Ultraviolet light (which is around 5.6x slower than SC's feat), which not only is wrong because not only is that not how ang sizing works, the feat blatantly contradicts the point blank feat standards that we have on here (can't find the standard on the wiki, but I know it exists, it basically says that point blank feats are just for the rule of cool) and if Kars was actually 40 times the speed of light, he wouldn't even get tagged or hurt by the UV light in the first place, bro woulda statued it.
I am also aware that Kars was off-guarded by Stroheim here, but that doesn't handwave the fact that a 40x disparity in speed wouldn't allow an off-guard to even happen in the first place unless explicitly stated.

This is absurd, this paragraph is basically three different non-arguments being pushed as "consistency".
"Only feat in the verse that gets this high" is not a disqualifier by itself and never will be. A feat does not become invalid because it is the top showing. "It's the highest" is not the definition of inconsistency, there needs to be actual contradictions to it that outweigh it and its support.
The fact other characters have feats within the same general ballpark ain't helping you.
If you want to argue outlier, you need an actual contradiction: repeated, clear showings that establish a hard ceiling that this directly violates, or explicit text that makes the timing impossible. Otherwise, all you're actually doing is "I don't like the top end", and note, for this character.
Throwing a Stone Free anti-feat and saying "wow Kars can't be that fast", means nothing if Kars is simply faster than Stone Free. The contradictions need to actually contradict the feat in question, not be an entirely different line of speed scaling.
Also, notice the dodge: you are not refuting the timing. You're trying to veto the conclusion because it is big. If you want to invalidate the feat, that ain't how you do it.

"Point blank feats are just rule of cool" is not a standard either dude, that is but a vibe. Actually, what are you even talking about?
We have thousands of calcs on wiki that have point blank reactions and dodges used as a calc basis, the fact you couldn't even find it is insulting to everyone here. Either do your CRT right or not at all.

If you're going to invoke a wiki standard, produce it. And even then, it would not magically turn into an aim-dodge or erase the time window that defines the very feat itself. The only honest way to downgrade it is to argue the distance is different, in which case we use that one, like that feat could def use a recalc, but not because it's slow, honestly it might be a lil higher?

"If he was 40c he wouldn't get tagged/hurt, he'd statue it" is a basic misconception about what speed implies and I'll yap more about it below but being faster than an attack does not make you immune to the attack. It only means you can move farther per unit time once you start moving.
You can still get hit if:
your start time is late (off-guard, attention elsewhere, facing the wrong way, etc. like uh, YOU JUST CONCEEDED),
the attack is already inside your space when you register it so like, dodge where? You need room to dodge no matter how quick you are.
you choose to block instead of evade (like he did)

"Statuing" is not something speed grants. If the scene depicts a delayed start, then the fact he takes any contact is exactly what you'd expect even at very high speeds depending on when he began acting relative to the beam. "A 40x disparity wouldn't allow an off-guard to happen unless explicitly stated" is objectively not true.
Off-guard is about information and start time. Someone could be 1,000,000,000c and fail to dodge 1c light if they don't start dodging till it's 0.000,000,001m away.
Zero amount of speed lets you react to what you have not perceived yet.
A fighter can be massively faster than a projectile and still fail if the projectile is fired when they are not looking and the remaining travel distance is tiny by the time they actually do start moving.
And the worst of it?

You talk about narrative and intent yet you're trying to argue being "off-guard" doesn't count in a verse where they verbatim say you can be a shit ton faster, it doesn't matter if you don't know when or where it's coming from to react in the first place. They establish this a bunch by the way, not just these two examples but plenty where things we know they can blitz or statue tag because they simply weren't expecting it, or knew it was coming, or it was so close they didn't have enough time.

Hell that's even how one character was defeated, by abusing the lil known concept of speed, distance, time to tag someone stated to be able to effortlessly block bullets, by simply just making the bullet fire from so close that even if they're faster they wouldn't reach it in time.
Because yes, slower things can tag you if you need to move 1m to it's 1cm, that's how basic movement works?

If your position is "this can't be that fast because then he'd never be grazed", well you're wrong, you're assuming the very thing the scene denies: that he had early warning and initiated movement early. Speed does not create extra time. It only determines how much you can do with whatever time you actually have.
And made all the worse here because he doesn't fail, he literally succeeds in reacting and trying to block it.
The "he would have moved more if he was faster" objection is not a counterargument, it's a category error and a really bad one.

If one were to actually follow the paneling:
Kars is not tracking Stroheim properly, you yourself outright state Kars was taken off guard.
Stroheim readies it up.
Only after that does Kars turn back:

Note, the speed lines/motion blur to convey the Kars has turned his head (directly implying that he wasn't actually looking at Stroheim before given his head ends up aimed toward Stroheim after the pivot).
The immediate next panel. When Kars finishes turning, the UV beam is already essentially right at his face (the remaining gap is tiny af).

In that tiny remaining window, Kars raises both arms and brings them up to shield his face.

That is the feat. Full stop. Also hey, Joseph reacts between the beam being cm away and hitting Kars, neat lil FTL reaction feat for him too.

The issue here, is your argumentation on how speed works, or calcs, I don't know which but this is the 3rd time this post.
Reaction feats are defined by the minimum movement achieved inside the remaining time window.
You are treating "more movement" like it's a requirement. It isn't. Speed calcs do not work like "if you were really fast you would do extra shit for free".
To simplify this for you, if someone catches a baseball inches from their nose, you do not call it a "failure" because they didn't also do a backflip afterward as well.
The catch is the proof. The distance their hands traveled before contact is what constrains the time window and therefore the speed.

Here, the ONLY question that matters is:
After the beam that is already in motion (and already very close), how much distance does Kars' body move before the beam would have hit his face?

He moves enough to bring his hand up into the line of fire. That is not "didn't move far enough" situation, he quite literally "moved at all in a window where slower interpretations would move basically nothing or fail to do what we see him do", as in, precisely why it's 40c. If he moved more, he'd be even higher.

And then there's your "if he was 40x faster he would have moved more" flips the logic backwards comletely.
The observed movement is literally why it's as fast as it is.
If you lower his speed, you lower the distance he can cover in the same time window. If you lower it, he does not get his arms up in time/position. He just eats the beam. Your own argument fails to comprehend why it's fast to begin with, and thus argue "well he only did this so it's lower".

Less speed > less arm travel > lower than what he did.
Not "more speed > must show extra arm travel". That demand is arbitrary and has nothing to do with how time as a concept works.

This also cannot be aim-dodge by definition, aim-dodging means the defender moves based on the attacker aiming/telegraphing BEFORE the projectile's travel is the limiting factor.
Once the projectile is already moving, and the defender's movement is competing against the projectile within the same timeframe, it is a reaction feat.

In this scene, Kars' one arm is down. He does not initiate a defensive motion until the beam is already fired and already near his face.
Calling that "aim-dodge" would make basically every dodge in fiction an aim-dodge ("they saw it coming"), like yeah he saw it coming? The problem is he didn't see it coming till it was so close that the window of time he had to react to it was miniscule, and then he did. How you use that word is NOT correct.

If your movement starts after the thing and succeeds in the remaining travel time, it is a reaction feat, you compare the speed of them and get a value that way.
If your movement starts before the thing based on aim/telegraphing, it is aim-dodge (and even then you can still compare).

And btw that heat-sensing point is... Well it doesn't help like be real dude, you're trying to take a separate instance where Kars deliberately focuses to read body heat over an extended moment:

and then go "he could instantly sense the UV beam while not paying attention".
Even if he could detect it faster (unproven), it still would not change the feat:
He doesn't move until AFTER the beam is in motion.
Detection does not magically turn movement feat into aim-dodge. His movement still occurs while the beam is in mid-flight, and he does so before the beam can travel whatever miniscule distance it had left.

But screw it, ok the burden is on you to justify an earlier start time. You don't have it.
If you want to claim Kars began moving BEFORE the beam was fired (or with enough lead time that projectile travel is irrelevant), you need panel support: an arm lift, a flinch, a pre-guard, anything, show him moving his arm ahead of time.
But the depiction is the opposite: arms down, then beam near face, then arms up.
So the start time is late.

The arms getting up at all, from a resting position, after the beam is already basically at his face, is the entire point. If you don't like the number the calc yields, argue the gap distance or the interpretation of what the beam is. Do not argue "he should have moved more" because that is not an argument if he moved more, the calc would be even higher.
And if the value was lower, he wouldn't have moved as much as he did to begin with.

This is simply a personal issue, the feat is one of the most blatant post fire reaction feats known to man, also:

He literally does move more btw.
Simply disingenuous. "Why didn't Kars move more", is an odd question when he did. The calc just didn't factor that in because it's harder to quantify the actual distance, but thinking on it, it's very possible, might even be an extra MFTL one. So why didn't you turn the page to see that he actually does move more, gets out of the way, does a full turn, all while the beam hasn't meaningfully moved much further, if at all, basically statuing it (don't forget, the beam was in his cheek, yet he was able to back up and twist despite a panel prior he and the moving beam of light were occupying by the same location, and now he's moved AWAY from it, along ITS trajectory.).
Do I really need to explain the issue here? If Kars was actually slower than it, how in the world did he move back and do a whole pivot, along the beam's path, without the beam moving past him (if it was quicker, it'd be behind him now as it'd be covering more distance per time).

Yeah no, this entire point is wrong on every single level, and you yourself even conceded multiple things that would debunk your own argument in the argument itself (off guard, distracted, etc.).

1. Remove both feats. Silver Chariot is narratively intended to aim dodge the feat here and according to the aim dodging standards, that doesn't fly here.

Anyway here's this nice lil statement about Chariot from some supplementary slop saying as long as it isn't blind af:
光の速さで動く敵を切ることもたやすい.

Kars' feat is a point blank feat that makes no sense here either.

Yes, it is, and also not what qualifies under the rules to be veto'd.
That only applies if two comparable characters, explicitly, short distance omega dodge each other, because it creates a circular scaling chain of blitzing themselves.

Kars and UV beam ain't exactly scaling to each other like that my dude.

2. Re-scale everyone in the original JoJos to Joseph and Ceasar's feat which is at 0.82c. Or nuke that too, it's also problematic but it's not contradictory at least.

Actually, that should be redone, it's def low FTL, but that's besides the point.

3. Nerf everyone in the new timeline to like Subsonic or something. These bullet and horse speed timers are not even close to lightspeed, let alone MFTL bro.

Given you legitimately said Diego "my most frequent feat is ultra blitzing and statuing bullets" Brando is threatened by bullets, I'm not quite so sure your argument is based on much proof.

But OH, new timeline, did you know Paisley Park is SOL? And did you know she's blitzed by IaaR? Who is blitzed by S&W, who is blitzed by WoU?
And Part 9 is pulling some punches atm, Paco, NR and 200 all have some nice casual MHS stuff just laying about just to showcase how transonic is uh... Well honestly I'm not quite sure how you conclude that.

4. Nerf Jotaro and DIO to merely FTL because of Jotaro and Star Platinum's statements of them being FTL. As well as Kars being Speed of Light cuz of his own feat of reacting to UV light

Ya know, I want to talk about this. You outright state that Star Platinum is FTL. Of course he is, he has multiple statements confirming s much but, you realize if Plat is FTL, so is Chariot right?

Chariot is literally a threat to Jotaro (who he himself is stated SOL to FTL), yet Jotaro and most certainly Plat are noted to be FTL outside of their prime, and furthermore are noted to be faster than Stands like Hanged Man and RHCP directly, well you see the issue right?

Mid Part 3 Plat > Part 4/6 Plat > Hanged Man/RHCP.
Mid Part 3 Plat ~ Chariot.
Ergo Chariot > FTL (Part 6) > Hanged Man/RHCP.

And no, not just that statement:

Chariot even parried a blow.
If you accept that later iterations of Star Platinum are FTL, which you just conceded, you by proxy accept that Chariot is FTL.
And if Chariot is FTL, any argument going "well nuh uh Hanged Man/Polnareff himself", is undercut. As Chariot can not both be upscaling off Star Platinum who upscales drastically off himself who is stated explicitly faster than SOL Stands and FTL while also being sublight and slower than speeds and Stands that an even slower Star Platinum is faster than.

Of course, this is because there is no issue. Hanged Man and Polnareff being a certain speed never actually effected Chariot (the Stand) itself.
But given your arguments, we'd run into a massive circular issue where Star Platinum would be slower than speeds, versions, and Stands, he's outright noted faster than, all because of this disingenuous argumentation that completely throws out any actual nuance, established context, and even the whole power system to an extent.

Mid Plat ~ Anubis ~ Chariot > literally everything else Jotaro has fought against.

In fact, don't forget Armorless Chariot is a blitz faster than Jotaro's perception. And Jotaro himself has stated SOL-FTL perception outright.

5. Pucci's scaling is fine btw, no one scales to him regardless, although he does have an anti feat of getting hit by an MFTL spear lol

I pray to God you are not using a spear thrown in time stop by Plat as a anti-feat for anyone.

Anyway here's Pucci blitzing his own (light based) reflection.

Got that Saitama in him. Not that it matters, but there's legitimately so many FTL things here and there throughout that even the most mundane things like this hit it.

Anyway TL;DR:

Stop arguing a strawman. Nobody is claiming "Polnareff himself is MFTL". Polnareff is Relativistic-ish in reactions/perception. Silver Chariot (the Stand) can be faster than him. This is normal in JoJo and already how we treat profiles (user speed vs Stand speed are not forced 1:1).

Stands do NOT require 1:1 manual piloting for every micro-action. They act on intent/instinct/emotion all the time, can protect the user without explicit step-by-step commands, and can carry out broad orders like "protect" or "attack there" while filling in the blanks. Treating a Stand like a fighting-game puppet is a extreme misconception, that's shot down with just the slightest bit of knowledge.

The Hanged Man scene is a trap with a timed cue. "NOW" means "attack right now". Full stop. Acting like "he said now but maybe he attacked earlier/later idk lmao"; this ignores the panel sequence. If "NOW" isn't the trigger, it becomes meaningless dialogue and the entire setup collapses.

"He could've been there already / moved before" is contradicted by the panel sequence: Chariot is not already present/in-position at the "NOW" moment, then appears and intercepts inside the tiny transfer window. This is just basic spatial awareness and depth understanding.

Chariot being extremely fast but needing guidance to USE that speed is literally consistent with the Ebony Devil caveat and the Lovers TV guidance, among others: fast Stand, limited sensing/targeting without direction, he is blind, we do not bully the disabled.

"If Chariot was fast, there'd be no stakes" is a bad take. Speed does not grant information, targeting, or a valid hit window on demand. Stakes come from: Hanged Man being untargetable except during transfer, crowd/hostages, Chariot's sensory limitations, Pol's limitations, who he is to begin with, and more, plus the need to force a predictable trajectory.

Adaptation sanity checking ain't wrong. We're obviously not using the anime as "canon" evidence for numbers, but it's telling that every adaptation stages the exact same A > B > C: cue ("NOW") > Chariot attacks > intercept during transfer. If your argument requires "actually he did it earlier off-panel", that's creating an entirely different feat then what is actually depicted. Conservative needs to actually still calc the actual feat in question.

Kars feat is just a drastic misunderstanding of basic speed concepts while conceding the only caveat was he was take off guard and acted later.

The Sun feat is also just straight up misinformation.

This post is surface-level on purpose (per mod instruction, not like forum would let me go all out, 20 images a post is extremely low). The deeper pile of scans/feats/statements is going into a proper blog and a larger discussion-rule thread later. For now: the premise "Stand must equal user, therefore Chariot can't be that fast" is wrong.

I want a discussion rule for Chariot and Hanged Man. NONE of this was new.
Me and the boys will also work on a blog for speed stuff and compile every relevant feat and statement and explanation which I gathered a lot of doing this, was told to not post it all and just do a surface level minimal here instead of going over all the support and extra facets. All the same, I ask for this to be closed.

 

[Saqphire]

- snip 3x-

Oof this shotgunning smoke goes CRAZY. I'll respond to this in a bit, likely tomorrow one by one.

Also @Foriaa he is back

 

[DragoZeroNova]

You would need to outright prove that Pol needs to mentally control the very swing itself and motion for it to matter, otherwise you're basically arguing a gun can't be fast because the person still needs to press the trigger, or that a jet can't be fast because the pilot still needs to aim and fire.

I swear I've made a similar argument in this forum with Silver Chariot and Pol before in a CRT (though the CRT wasn't a Silver Chariot downgrade, someone was just objecting to Chariot MFTL).
If this thread is rejected, I would support a discussion rule on Hanged Man and Chariot, though just those two of course.

 

[Foriaa]

Oof this shotgunning smoke goes CRAZY. I'll respond to this in a bit one by one.

Also @Foriaa he is back

Lot's of things to read through

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with Chariot. And I'd support a discussion rule so we don't recycle this same topic again and again.

 

[KingTempest]

I agree with Chariot. And I'd support a discussion rule so we don't recycle this same topic again and again.

Same, I've seen too many of these type of threads tackling the same arguments and I've seen a new paragraph for each each time.

His message is valid

 

[KLOL506]

Read the whole thing that Chariot posted (F*ck you Chariot for making me do this on election day, a plague upon you and your entire bloodline for a million generations), and he said everything I would have said, but with more fury, and then a crapton more. Disagree with OP outright, and I'd immediately recommend a discussion rule be made to prevent further recurrences of this topic. Most of these arguments I have dealt with personally myself back when Weekly did it first, but now Chariot has one-upped me in that.

 

[Lonkitt]

I agree with Chariot’s points

 

[Planck69]

Honestly baffled we never made a rule for this already. One of the most exhausted topics about this verse on the wiki.

And in case it wasn't clear, I agree with Chariot.

 

[KingTempest]

I agree with Chariot’s points

WHEN DID YOU RETIRE

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I have some basic ass knowledge of JOJO and this was absolutely bunkers on inventing a narrative that falls apart when we know stands can and has been faster than their own users.

Anyway, I agreed with Chariot all the way through as it is ridiculous to assume MFTL was off the tables when we have a lot of statements and feats that collaborated with FTL shenanigans.

 

[Foriaa]

I agree with Chariot's points

 

[DragoZeroNova]

WHEN DID YOU RETIRE

Pretty sure it's been months lol

 

[M3X_2.0]

This shit is so ******* funny man

 

[Mbpoops]

Agree with chariot but i wanna see the op’s response (they said they would respond i believe)

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Pretty sure it's been months lol

While off topic, I do miss the OG staff members back in 2015-2016 ish if memories serve me right

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree with Chariot.

And if Chariot had to deal with another one of these BS shortly after, then he'd turn into CrashoutCrimson.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I agree with Chariot.

And if Chariot had to deal with another one of these BS shortly after, then he'd turn into CrashoutCrimson.

Chariot was already the King Crimson in form of his infamous “Donut” scenes (Good for those who understand what I am referring to)

 

[M3X_2.0]

Alright yeah we all agree with Chariot but you gotta remember that only staff agreements are worth here and we should no derail the thread with pointless agreements from regular members like us.

If the OP wants they can request the thread to be closed until they have a response so it doesn’t get derailed.

And obviously staff can comment anyway.

 

[AmonInChains]

As a Chariot alt account and all his gooners being summoned, I agree with him.

Don't forget the Discussion Rule.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah gonna have to agree with Chariot here. Not really buying the MFTL debunks against the verse. Count me as agree for making a discussion rule against the MFTL feats too since I’ve swear every few months or so someone tries to make a massive nerf on Jojo speed and they all get rejected every single time.

 

[Dalesean027]

lol Chariot's point are pretty concrete here and this as said above is a tired thread topic so I'm all for a discussion rule when this is over