Jon Snow's profile knows nothing

[SheevShezarrine]

yeah, i'll mention that

for the arrows he dodged, there were quite a few of them that he didn't see coming. for the arrows he blocked, ramsay wasn't too far away, it took like five seconds of walking for jon to get up close and beat the shit out of him

first of all, he'd need food to survive either way. second of all, while he was beyond the wall, jon survived getting tackled into ice water by wights and staying there for like a minute straight. he didn't have any time to inhale before he got tackled, so he was probably running out of air pretty quickly. on top of that, he presumably had to use a fair bit of his energy to kill those wights (which he would have done with his bare hands). i don't think that's something average humans are capable of.

That's fair, but also the series kinda dropped in writing quality sharply back in Season 7, so I'm thinking Jon's surviving a dousing in Artic temperatures is more PIS than anything indicative of an ability addition. As for him reacting to arrows, he was reacting to Ramsey's aim at the end of the Battle of the Bastards, and for the arrows that he didn't see coming, I'd probably chalk it up to PIS again or call it an outlier, since it's inconsistent with the athletic to peak human speed of comparable characters. I'd certainly love Subsonic combat speed Game of Thrones, but I honestly don't think that's in line with what's consistently and logically shown.

 

[Antvasima]

EliminatorVenom seems to make sense. Thank you for helping out.

 

[AKM sama]

for the arrows he dodged, there were quite a few of them that he didn't see coming. for the arrows he blocked, ramsay wasn't too far away, it took like five seconds of walking for jon to get up close and beat the shit out of him

If you are talking about the battle of bastards, those arrows were coming from very far, the number of arrows doesn't matter and most of them weren't even accurately gonna hit him. For the Ramsay scene, he literally had a big shield and he just had to aim block since it was clear where Ramsay was pointing to when he was about to shoot those arrows.

Other than that, I agree with EliminatorVenom.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

What AKM and Eliminator have accepted can probably be applied then.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

subsonic high-tier got characters would probably make sense actually. the cleganes are obviously way stronger than any human, so it's not like superhuman stats are anything new to the stronger got characters. there are some pretty fast characters too. daenerys dodged an arrow which was shot with enough force to kill a dragon, the dragons themselves can also dodge those arrows, arya blitzed brienne, casually dodged her swings, and pulled a michael myers, bronn did whatever the **** this is, etc.

as for jon himself, he was clearly blocking the arrows after they were shot, so he was reacting to ramsay's arrows, not his aim. like, if he moved the shield before ramsay could aim somewhere else, i'd get it, but that's not how the scene played out. ramsay shot the arrows and jon basically caught them in front of his face. everyone's looking at him like they're actually scared of how ******* fast this guy is, like one dude just kinda lowers his bow and stares at jon in horror. i don't think that was just supposed to be an average thing that anyone could do. plus, he was definitely worn out from all that battling of the bastards he was doing. he fell off his horse, fought and killed several people, narrowly evaded all those arrows, and got trampled and suffocated by his own men. then, he blocked ramsay's arrows. and he did it three times, so it's not like just got lucky and blocked one of them.

also, jon should probably scale to daenerys and her dragons' aforementioned speed feats, considering that he reacted to rhaegal's movements and killed daenerys before she could react.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Are u doing show profiles or just putting all of that in a show/book combination?

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i'll do show profiles when someone who's knowledgeable on the books removes the show stuff from the current profiles (excluding jon and the night king because their profiles are tv-exclusive)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

What AKM and Eliminator have accepted can probably be applied then.

Has this been handled yet, and if not, is somebody knowledgeable willing to do so?

 

[BigSmoke4269]

didn't they reject, like, everything? i'm not really sure what can be applied here. there's still the subsonic argument but i seem to be the apologist there

 

[Antvasima]

I do not remember. Sorry. I would appreciate if somebody can write a summary of what has been accepted and rejected here.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i don't think we're done but okay

accepted:
bad tactician weakness removal (and the same probably goes for the inexperience weakness too, because, like, come on), peak human physical characteristics, and pre/post-resurrection key transition
i'll probably apply this when i get the chance.
friendzoned:
blessed (i guess it's rejected idk), subsonic feats, and cold resistance
in other words, literally everything that matters.
not sure yet:
they might've been rejected but i'm still arguing about the subsonic feats. i think there should at least be a "possibly subsonic" rating there. once that's settled, we should probably discuss how to handle the night king's dragonfire-extinguishing storm creation feat or whatever i'm supposed to call it, now that there are some staff members here. he seems to have an earthquake feat, too. finally, we should decomposite this verse. i haven't read the books, so in order to separate them from the show, i'll need help from someone who has.
one last thing, i just realized that alchemist (a song of ice and fire) is a profile, so that's a problem which should probably be fixed

wait i can use other fonts? huh, that's interesting

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @EliminatorVenom

Are you willing to help out here please?

 

[AKM sama]

bad tactician weakness removal (and the same probably goes for the inexperience weakness too, because, like, come on), peak human physical characteristics, and pre/post-resurrection key transition

Yeah this is the only thing that was accepted.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

it would be nice to get a response to the stuff that i said we still need to discuss

 

[AKM sama]

I already responded to them. The new stuff you brought up isn't any proof of such speed either, it was too obvious therefore I did not respond. But

the cleganes are obviously way stronger than any human, so it's not like superhuman stats are anything new to the stronger got characters

They are stronger. But they have no feats of being faster.

daenerys dodged an arrow which was shot with enough force to kill a dragon, the dragons themselves can also dodge those arrows

Daenerys just had to move the dragon out of the way and she saw it coming from pretty far. I don't know how you are trying to pass this as a speed feat. F1 racers also drive their cars at a great speed and they can still steer it to avoid other cars. That doesn't mean their speed scales to the car's. Dragon's flight speed doesn't scale to any human either.

arya blitzed brienne, casually dodged her swings, and pulled a michael myers, bronn did whatever the **** this is, etc

Arya is faster than Brienne. How fast is Brienne? The other one is stealth and doesn't yield the results you're implying. Bronn used his horse and jumped to save the guy. How is that a speed feat?

We should just apply the agreed change and close this thread.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

They are stronger. But they have no feats of being faster.

my point was that superhuman feats are nothing new here.

Daenerys just had to move the dragon out of the way and she saw it coming from pretty far. I don't know how you are trying to pass this as a speed feat. F1 racers also drive their cars at a great speed and they can still steer it to avoid other cars. That doesn't mean their speed scales to the car's. Dragon's flight speed doesn't scale to any human either.

i don't think we're talking about the same scene here. iirc there's a scene where drogon is getting shot at, and daenerys herself dodges an arrow without seeing it from a distance. she doesn't just steer the dragon out of the way.

Arya is faster than Brienne. How fast is Brienne?

i'd guess athletic/peak human. doesn't matter much though. i said arya casually dodged her swings, and a quick google search tells me that people can swing swords at 70 km/h. brienne's swipes are probably a lot faster than that, too, since valyrian steel is known to be extremely light and she's quite a bit stronger than the average human.

The other one is stealth and doesn't yield the results you're implying.

dunno. moving across that entire room in a few seconds while making sure not to be seen seems impressive to me.

Bronn used his horse and jumped to save the guy. How is that a speed feat?

he, like, teleports beside jaime. in the last shot he isn't anywhere to be seen. could just be bad writing, though, that wouldn't be anything new.

We should just apply the agreed change and close this thread.

whether we're done with this particular argument or not, there's also the issue about how the night king's storm feat should be calculated, as well as the decompositing of the verse. that's what i meant by "the stuff we still need to discuss".

 

[AKM sama]

You are misinterpreting or overly exaggerating the several scenes.

Daenerys never dodged a spear from Night King herself. She knew the spear was coming, she was already changing her direction when it was thrown. Night King just missed. Her reaction is nowhere near Night King's throwing speed and that's blatant in the scene.

Arya walking across a room will not yield impressive results but you can ask to get it calced. Although, the distance is completely unknown so I don't even think it can be calced, but you should ask a calc member for that.

Bronn used a horse lol there was no teleportation and no speed feat there.

there's also the issue about how the night king's storm feat should be calculated, as well as the decompositing of the verse. that's what i meant by "the stuff we still need to discuss".

These are not the topics of this thread. You should ask a calc member about the former, I am not a big fan of storm feats anyway and whatever yield it generates, there is no proof Night King uses it in his actual AP. The latter would require a separate thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with AKM. You can apply what he has accepted and decided if you wish.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Daenerys never dodged a spear from Night King herself. She knew the spear was coming, she was already changing her direction when it was thrown. Night King just missed. Her reaction is nowhere near Night King's throwing speed and that's blatant in the scene.

????????? where did the night king come from? i thought we were talking about arrows? i was talking about arrows. particularly cersei's giant crossbow arrow things. so i guess i was right about something: we weren't on the same page, were we?

Arya walking across a room will not yield impressive results but you can ask to get it calced. Although, the distance is completely unknown so I don't even think it can be calced, but you should ask a calc member for that.

lol okay, i might try calcing it myself since there are probably other shots of the room i could use. the swinging thing still works on its own though, i think

Bronn used a horse lol there was no teleportation and no speed feat there.

considering this point and your first point, i'm beginning to think you were really exhausted when you read my message. i wasn't trying to say he actually teleported, it's more that he just kinda appeared in a ridiculously short period of time. then again, it could just be bad writing, and to your point, he was using a horse to do it. bronn jumping off, tagging, and tackling jaime while the latter was on horseback before drogon could attack might be viable, though.

These are not the topics of this thread. You should ask a calc member about the former, I am not a big fan of storm feats anyway and whatever yield it generates, there is no proof Night King uses it in his actual AP. The latter would require a separate thread.

okay. i'll make separate threads then. once again taking on the role of the apologist, i still believe there's a discussion to be had with jon reacting to arrows, but the last person i'd wanna have that lengthy argument with would be a bureaucrat, for two reasons. first of all, no matter what we're talking about, you automatically have much more credibility than i do by a few light years (especially since i'm known as "the cool cat guy", which must do wonders for my reputation), so unless i can change your mind, everyone else is faaaaar more likely to side with you, whether you're actually right or not. second of all, as i said earlier, you are likely exhausted and overworked already, considering that you're one of the bureaucrats who are supposed to carry a wiki of thousands. i can't win here, and continuing to argue with you might make the maintenance of the wiki slightly worse, so i'd rather have this debate with someone who isn't a bureaucrat than close this thread entirely or continue to argue with you. i will still apply the changes that have been accepted so far, though.

 

[AKM sama]

particularly cersei's giant crossbow arrow things. so i guess i was right about something: we weren't on the same page, were we?

Then link the feat you are talking about. Don't leave it vague.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

fair enough, but i still don't understand how it was interpreted as her dodging a spear from the night king when i said people shot at her and she dodged an arrow

 

[BigSmoke4269]

would jon get resistance to fire/heat manip via dragon blood? i know that not every targaryen has it, but jon rolled through a fireplace and took it pretty well. he's a dragonrider, too, and that's another dragon blood thing apparently.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Not entirely sure. A lantern did burn him when he grabbed one to throw it at a wight

 

[BigSmoke4269]

ohh yeah, i forgot about that. maybe he just has it to a lesser extent because he's only half-targaryen?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with AKM. You can apply what he has accepted and decided if you wish.

 

[AKM sama]

ohh yeah, i forgot about that. maybe he just has it to a lesser extent because he's only half-targaryen?

He doesn't have it. He hasn't shown it. I don't know what feat you are talking about, so please link the feat when you bring it up, but yeah, he was clearly burned by a lantern.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out AKM.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

He doesn't have it. He hasn't shown it. I don't know what feat you are talking about, so please link the feat when you bring it up

i don't remember it either (i read it on the profile). i'll look for it when i have time.

but yeah, he was clearly burned by a lantern.

hence me saying it might be to a lesser extent. most targaryens, daenerys included, were """purebred""" (aka inbred). jon wasn't born of incest, so he wouldn't really have """pure""" dragon blood. this might be how he can ride dragons and tank fire but still get burned with enough heat. it's probably a stretch, though.

I agree with AKM. You can apply what he has accepted and decided if you wish.

i'm editing the profile as we speak. it's just taking a while because i'm adding some justifications, explanations, etc. hopefully it doesn't count as vandalism because i'm not changing any stats, but if it does, i'll post the changes here before i save my edits.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. As I mentioned, you can add the accepted changes.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

so it doesn't count as vandalism, then?

 

[Antvasima]

Not if you only add what the staff here have accepted.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i meant adding justification and explanations for existing stats

 

[Antvasima]

Not in this case, but what do you wish to add more specifically?

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i'll list it off when i'm finished typing it out

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Sorry, I had taken some weeks off from the internet to handle some university stuff.

As far as I read this... I disagree with Subsonic scaling. I don't doubt GoT characters being superhuman in any way - way too many characters do things that are physically impossible, such as cutting armors and stuff, but the feats presented here are not solid enough evidence.

And can anyone show me the clips of Jon reacting to arrows? So far I still haven't seen it.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

And can anyone show me the clips of Jon reacting to arrows? So far I still haven't seen it.

here, look at this.

jon is reacting to the arrows, not ramsay's aim. he doesn't even move until after they're fired. once again, if it showed jon moving to block it and then it showed ramsay shooting the arrow, i'd get it, but instead it shows ramsay shooting the arrow followed by jon starting to move right before it can hit him. it's clearly impressing everyone else, too, look at that guy's reaction. they wouldn't have intentionally put those shots of his own allies looking at him like that if he was just doing typical human stuff. ramsay isn't shooting from far away, either. they're only a couple meters away from each other, and jon is gradually closing that gap.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Jon only had to move a few dozen centimeters at most as he was holding a shield close to himself already. I'm not saying that's not impressive, that requires great reflexes, but nothing superhuman.

Moving after the arrows already shoot do not automatically means subsonic reflexes - the amount of movement also matters.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

that's probably subsonic reactions, then. he can't move faster than an arrow, but he can react to its movements.