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(Note from KT. If you're not staff, disperse)
Type 2 Information
The body and soul in JJK was proposed to be comprised of Type 2 Information in this thread. Duedate8898 wholly approved of it while Confluctor had responded and agreed with some additions but hadn't clearly outlined an approval of Type 2 Information Manipulation. The thread wasn't closed until January 30 2023 after the policy change on detailing that 2 staff members must sign off on any proposed changes and ShadowWhoWalks raised concerns that more staff approval was needed on January 27.
Confluctor may have voiced approval for it elsewhere so regardless, I will be breaking down the 2 main pieces of evidence for Type 2 Information Manipulation while also trying to explain what that information encompasses in JJK:
In summay, this evidence shows us that the information in JJK encompassing the body and soul includes a person's consciousness, their memories, cursed technique (if any), DNA and physiology. This shouldn't qualify for a solid Type 2 Information Manipulation rating as Type 2 Info Manip's description reads:
Hollow Purple's Void Manipulation & Existence Erasure
Gojo's Hollow Purple was proposed to be Void Manipulation and Conversion to Nonexistence here. Duedate agreed while Confluctor was initially skeptical and hadn't signed off on its approval (1, 2). The justifcation given is:
Now to address the environmental impact and physical process part. The first time Hollow Purple is shown, we can see trees being shaved in the direction of its trajectory as it passed as well as trees being launched into the air and it left a smoking crater. The damage on Hanami from the attack shows that their ribcage was intact despite that side of the body being hit by the attack and the other affected parts of his body look like burn marks. Toji's case resembles Existence Erasure. However, It's showings in the Shinjuku Showdown have convinced many people that Purple really isn't EE:
tl;dr: the evidence for Hollow Purple's void characteristics was it's name being translated with "Void" in it, there are multiple anti-feats discrediting Hollow Purple erasing whatever it touches and there is no evidence to suggest that imaginary mass behaves like anti-matter in the series.
Tidbit on the Jump GIGA Summer 2021 JJK "Deep Learning Mathematics Lecture"
Conceptual Manipulation
It was initially proposed here that Cursed Techniques should have Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation based on Kenjaku saying mass was the target concept of Yuki's Cursed Technique (which manipulates "Virtual Mass") after she destroyed Ganesha and ignored his Cursed Technique. Gojo's Limitless, Yuki's Star Rage and Sukuna's world cutting slash techniques were proposed as Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. Barrier Techniques were also proposed to be Type 3 Concept Manip alongside it.
To start, the JJK wiki has an interesting piece of trivia regarding Ganesha's Cursed Technique:
Furthermore, I came across a Japanese blog that tries to make sense of this scene and it follows along with the translation above that Kenjaku was referring to Ganesha's technique which involves concepts, not a "target concept" of Yuki's technique that can be applied to how Cursed Techniques function in general.
Now while I do believe Yuki's Star Rage should still be Concept Manip, it should be Type 3 CM not Type 2. Type 2 CM means the objects rely on the concept bound to them to exist as they are, the concept governs reality in its area of influence and the concept is destroyed once all objects governed by the concept are destroyed. Yuki's technique only targets her and her shikigami and gives them Virtual Mass, this fits the criteria of Type 3 CM over Type 2 CM. Yuki should also have a limited resistance to Type 3 CM due to her Virtual Mass not being able to be contained intensionally and extensionally by Ganesha's technique. As for Gojo's Limitless, the justifications being listed for it being Type 2 CM were argued over previously and rejected here (see these posts in particular: 1 2; note: I don't agree to Infinity being a nominal concept like the op of that thread says) the evidence that might qualify Limitless was the idea of Cursed Techniques being based on a "target concept" which I've disproved above and @Ultima_Reality outlined why Limitless doesn't fit our definition of Type 2 CM in the 2 posts I linked from the Limitless CM removal CRT. As for Sukuna's world cutting slash, Sukuna doesn't use the term "concept" while explaining his new slash and we are told by Kenjaku and Kusakabe that he is extending the target of his Cursed Technique to a broader scope with no mention of concepts again. Without Limitless being Type 2 CM, I don't see any reason why Sukuna's slash should stay Type 2 CM, it's just a greater degree of Spatial Manipulation.
Now to address Barrier Techniques in general. The "concrete image" and Sukuna's shrine acting as the symbol for his Domain mentioned don't have anything to underline Concept Manip, no concepts are mentioned here, this is just the user of a barrier needing to have an image of the barrier in their head to create it and Sukuna's shrine acting as a marker for his Domain's location rather than being the source of his Domain itself. Tengen's consciousness, which is kept from merging from the world due to their skill in Barrier Techniques, was posited as a "personal concept" even though we don't treat the soul and consciousness as being conceptual automatically. As such barriers should have their Type 3 CM removed.
tl;dr: Kenjaku refers to Ganesha being unable to contain Garuda under what its technique could recognise due to Star Rage's Virtual Mass, not a "target concept" of Yuki's technique that can be applied to the mechanisms of Cursed Techniques in general, the justifications for Type 2 CM for Yuki, Gojo and Sukuna's techniques don't hold up, Yuki's technique should be Type 3 CM and Barrier Techniques in general don't have anything that underlines CM.
This concludes my revision.
Agree: @Deagonx, @Damage3245, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Shadowbokunohero (Agrees with removing Void Manip from Purple), @Duedate8898 (Agrees with removing Void Manip from Purple and Type 2 CM from Sukuna), @Dalesean027, @Planck69
Disagree: @Dr._whiteee (Disagrees with removing Type 2 Info and CM), @Duedate8898 (Disagrees with removing Type 2 Info from the verse and Type 2 CM from Gojo)
Neutral: @Duedate8898 (Neutral on CM for Cursed Techniques in general and for Barriers)
Type 2 Information
The body and soul in JJK was proposed to be comprised of Type 2 Information in this thread. Duedate8898 wholly approved of it while Confluctor had responded and agreed with some additions but hadn't clearly outlined an approval of Type 2 Information Manipulation. The thread wasn't closed until January 30 2023 after the policy change on detailing that 2 staff members must sign off on any proposed changes and ShadowWhoWalks raised concerns that more staff approval was needed on January 27.
Confluctor may have voiced approval for it elsewhere so regardless, I will be breaking down the 2 main pieces of evidence for Type 2 Information Manipulation while also trying to explain what that information encompasses in JJK:
- Ogami stating she summon's only the body's information with her Seance Technique, not the soul's information
- Yaga stating soul information can be replicated from physical information
In summay, this evidence shows us that the information in JJK encompassing the body and soul includes a person's consciousness, their memories, cursed technique (if any), DNA and physiology. This shouldn't qualify for a solid Type 2 Information Manipulation rating as Type 2 Info Manip's description reads:
DISCLAIMER: I am only mentioning a revision containing a Type 2 Information proposal for The God of Highschool in order to demonstrate our standards for Type 2 Info, I have no affiliation with the GoH verse.
The Core Element in GoH is the life essence of reality, it encompasses a person's fundamental information: their Mind, Will, Body and Soul. This dictates how a person can interact with reality and how reality interacts with a person.
A CRT was made proposing Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2 & 3) and Information Manipulation (Type 2) based on the Core Element, the Concept Manip proposals were accepted without many arguments against it whilst the Type 2 Info proposal was met with scrutiny and relegated to Information Manipulation (Type 1, possibly Type 2) to be passed. With this, it is quite clear that the evidence provided for Type 2 Info in JJK does not meet our standards.
The Core Element in GoH is the life essence of reality, it encompasses a person's fundamental information: their Mind, Will, Body and Soul. This dictates how a person can interact with reality and how reality interacts with a person.
A CRT was made proposing Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2 & 3) and Information Manipulation (Type 2) based on the Core Element, the Concept Manip proposals were accepted without many arguments against it whilst the Type 2 Info proposal was met with scrutiny and relegated to Information Manipulation (Type 1, possibly Type 2) to be passed. With this, it is quite clear that the evidence provided for Type 2 Info in JJK does not meet our standards.
Hollow Purple's Void Manipulation & Existence Erasure
Gojo's Hollow Purple was proposed to be Void Manipulation and Conversion to Nonexistence here. Duedate agreed while Confluctor was initially skeptical and hadn't signed off on its approval (1, 2). The justifcation given is:
There are a few things I want to bring up with this. For one, Purple is never stated to erase anything from reality in the whole series or the official fanbook, that idea comes from the statement that colliding the infinities of Blue and Red causes an imaginary mass to rush forth as Purple. This was widely interpreted to mean that Purple would erase any normal mass it came into contact with akin to anti-matter interacting with matter. However, there is some contention around Purple's imaginary mass as Yuki's "Virtual Mass" uses the same term that was translated as "Imaginary Mass" for Hollow Purple. TCBscans had provided their own explanation for this conundrum here. Furthermore, the official translations have also adopted using "Virtual Mass" for Purple as opposed to imaginary mass.
The "void" characteristic evidenced in its first source is a translation of the Japanese script of Hollow Purple (虚きょ式しき「茈むらさき」) as "Void Technique Purple." The kanji「虚」on can mean "void, emptiness, unpreparedness, crack, fissure or untruth" but can mean "imaginary expression" as「虚 式」which could be a reference to an expression that has an imaginary number in mathematics which harkens back to the idea of Purple being imaginary mass,「虚」can also refer to imaginary numbers. The official translation is "Hollow Technique Purple" while some scanlations translated it as "Imaginary Technique Purple." Nevertheless, that's not a "void" characteristic, it would just mean the technique has "void" in the name which needs feats in the story to actually substantiate it as being a void of nonexistence.
The second scan talks about a "void formula" which doesn't exist (the only thing that sounds like it is the void ratio used to calculate the volume of voids, space unfilled with polymers and fibers in a composite material, not a void of nonexistence), it's likely a bad translation as the kanji「虚」can mean "void" and the kanji「式」can mean "formula" and void formula isn't a thing in mathematics. In fact, the translation would make more sense if it was:
My stance on Hollow Purple being imaginary or virtual mass is that it seems like Gege does want it to relate to imaginary numbers but it's also called "Virtual Mass" because of the reasons described in TCBscans explanations (that Purple and Yuki's technique have a presence in the real world making them "Virtual")
The second scan talks about a "void formula" which doesn't exist (the only thing that sounds like it is the void ratio used to calculate the volume of voids, space unfilled with polymers and fibers in a composite material, not a void of nonexistence), it's likely a bad translation as the kanji「虚」can mean "void" and the kanji「式」can mean "formula" and void formula isn't a thing in mathematics. In fact, the translation would make more sense if it was:
H's inquiry about using imaginary numbers is later brought up by "S" who asks if it's actually the Minkowski metric and "H" being unsure of whether it could be properly investigated, "H" also expresses he is unsure if the direction of imaginary numbers will be the equivalent of mixing Gojo's Blue and Red.
My stance on Hollow Purple being imaginary or virtual mass is that it seems like Gege does want it to relate to imaginary numbers but it's also called "Virtual Mass" because of the reasons described in TCBscans explanations (that Purple and Yuki's technique have a presence in the real world making them "Virtual")
Now to address the environmental impact and physical process part. The first time Hollow Purple is shown, we can see trees being shaved in the direction of its trajectory as it passed as well as trees being launched into the air and it left a smoking crater. The damage on Hanami from the attack shows that their ribcage was intact despite that side of the body being hit by the attack and the other affected parts of his body look like burn marks. Toji's case resembles Existence Erasure. However, It's showings in the Shinjuku Showdown have convinced many people that Purple really isn't EE:
At the start of their fight, Gojo fires a 200% Cursed Energy Output Purple at Sukuna which fragments the buildings in its path and is stopped when it collides with Sukuna, fragmenting the building he was standing on as if a massive force smashed into it causing rubble and dust to rain down. Sukuna's arms had burn-like injuries from this. An explanation for Sukuna's survival was that he used Domain Amplification to nullify Purple but he confirms that he simply reinforced his hands with Cursed Energy.
Gojo uses Purple again to cover a large area with him and Sukuna in its range and we can see the buildings around its circumference beginning to fragment. A piece of evidence in Dr. White's ontology sandbox for Purple being EE is that it "erased" Mahoraga's Wheel in this instance which is something Sukuna's Fire Arrow attack couldn't do despite vaporizing a portion of Shibuya but the result of Purple here was a large portion of Shinjuku being destroyed with the destruction resembling pulverization and fragmentation and Sukuna received burn injuries like before which makes it quite clear that Purple isn't EE, Purple in that instance is simply stronger than 15 Finger Sukuna's Fire Arrow. Purple being "imaginary mass" shouldn't mean we automatically assume it erases everything it touches like anti-matter because we need feats to show it's treated as such and these showings clearly show it doesn't erase everything it touches. In fact, Sukuna assesses its lethality by taking into account the distance it's fired from and its energy output.
Gojo uses Purple again to cover a large area with him and Sukuna in its range and we can see the buildings around its circumference beginning to fragment. A piece of evidence in Dr. White's ontology sandbox for Purple being EE is that it "erased" Mahoraga's Wheel in this instance which is something Sukuna's Fire Arrow attack couldn't do despite vaporizing a portion of Shibuya but the result of Purple here was a large portion of Shinjuku being destroyed with the destruction resembling pulverization and fragmentation and Sukuna received burn injuries like before which makes it quite clear that Purple isn't EE, Purple in that instance is simply stronger than 15 Finger Sukuna's Fire Arrow. Purple being "imaginary mass" shouldn't mean we automatically assume it erases everything it touches like anti-matter because we need feats to show it's treated as such and these showings clearly show it doesn't erase everything it touches. In fact, Sukuna assesses its lethality by taking into account the distance it's fired from and its energy output.
Another thing to consider is that if Purple really did erase all matter it came into contact with, Gojo firing Purple over long distances like he did against Hanami and then against Sukuna twice (with the 200% Purple covering a distance just under 4 km) would leave behind a massive vacuum where Purple would've erased tens to hundreds of millions of cubic meters of air which is something Gege doesn't ever muse over in any of the volume extras, interviews or the official fanbook. Gege has used this as an avenue to question himself on things like Yuji being force-fed while unconscious or Reggie producing bubbles while sinking in a substance that had no buoyancy or resistance.
tl;dr: the evidence for Hollow Purple's void characteristics was it's name being translated with "Void" in it, there are multiple anti-feats discrediting Hollow Purple erasing whatever it touches and there is no evidence to suggest that imaginary mass behaves like anti-matter in the series.
Tidbit on the Jump GIGA Summer 2021 JJK "Deep Learning Mathematics Lecture"
Currently Gojo's profile uses the information from a section of a Jump GIGA issue to explain his Infinity and provide evidence for Hollow Purple's Void Manip (as debunked above), it was a lecture where 3 people knowledgable in maths and physics gave their opinions on how some abilities in JJK would function using mathematical and physical concepts. @Deagonx has expressed heavy disagreement with using this as a source (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). In Deagon's responses the topic of Gege's editor came up with the claim that Gege co-signed the information in the Jump GIGA special:
Deagon's stance that there isn't proof of Gege co-signing the lecture and that what was said in the lecture was the conjecture of people who hadn't worked on the series is very much valid especially with their uncertainty around Purple (shown in the void characteristics spoiler). Furthermore, in their explanation of Gojo's Infinity using 'strong phase' and 'weak phase,' Sonoda agrees to it being possible for Gojo to make someone who is far away from him (100 meters away) feel as if he is very close by controlling the phases which is something Gojo has never done, he has Lapse Blue while pulls objects but that's not something that makes people 'feel' as if they are closer to him, it physically moves them.
This is wrong, Takano ("T-San") is the engineer who corrected Gege's incorrect use of counting to explain how infinite series would eventually become negative (what Gojo means by "natural negative numbers" when he describes Lapse Blue) in Volume 15 and made an appearance on the lecture while Tatsuhiko Katayama is the editor of JJK, Gege even shows that they're different people here, this misconception probably arose from the translation of the lecture incorrectly labelling Takano as JJK's editor. Takano only took issue with how Gege explained Gojo's Blue, not Gojo's Infinity or Red.
Deagon's stance that there isn't proof of Gege co-signing the lecture and that what was said in the lecture was the conjecture of people who hadn't worked on the series is very much valid especially with their uncertainty around Purple (shown in the void characteristics spoiler). Furthermore, in their explanation of Gojo's Infinity using 'strong phase' and 'weak phase,' Sonoda agrees to it being possible for Gojo to make someone who is far away from him (100 meters away) feel as if he is very close by controlling the phases which is something Gojo has never done, he has Lapse Blue while pulls objects but that's not something that makes people 'feel' as if they are closer to him, it physically moves them.
Conceptual Manipulation
It was initially proposed here that Cursed Techniques should have Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation based on Kenjaku saying mass was the target concept of Yuki's Cursed Technique (which manipulates "Virtual Mass") after she destroyed Ganesha and ignored his Cursed Technique. Gojo's Limitless, Yuki's Star Rage and Sukuna's world cutting slash techniques were proposed as Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. Barrier Techniques were also proposed to be Type 3 Concept Manip alongside it.
To start, the JJK wiki has an interesting piece of trivia regarding Ganesha's Cursed Technique:
~Raw scans (translations verified by @TheUnshakableOne)
Furthermore, I came across a Japanese blog that tries to make sense of this scene and it follows along with the translation above that Kenjaku was referring to Ganesha's technique which involves concepts, not a "target concept" of Yuki's technique that can be applied to how Cursed Techniques function in general.
Now while I do believe Yuki's Star Rage should still be Concept Manip, it should be Type 3 CM not Type 2. Type 2 CM means the objects rely on the concept bound to them to exist as they are, the concept governs reality in its area of influence and the concept is destroyed once all objects governed by the concept are destroyed. Yuki's technique only targets her and her shikigami and gives them Virtual Mass, this fits the criteria of Type 3 CM over Type 2 CM. Yuki should also have a limited resistance to Type 3 CM due to her Virtual Mass not being able to be contained intensionally and extensionally by Ganesha's technique. As for Gojo's Limitless, the justifications being listed for it being Type 2 CM were argued over previously and rejected here (see these posts in particular: 1 2; note: I don't agree to Infinity being a nominal concept like the op of that thread says) the evidence that might qualify Limitless was the idea of Cursed Techniques being based on a "target concept" which I've disproved above and @Ultima_Reality outlined why Limitless doesn't fit our definition of Type 2 CM in the 2 posts I linked from the Limitless CM removal CRT. As for Sukuna's world cutting slash, Sukuna doesn't use the term "concept" while explaining his new slash and we are told by Kenjaku and Kusakabe that he is extending the target of his Cursed Technique to a broader scope with no mention of concepts again. Without Limitless being Type 2 CM, I don't see any reason why Sukuna's slash should stay Type 2 CM, it's just a greater degree of Spatial Manipulation.
Now to address Barrier Techniques in general. The "concrete image" and Sukuna's shrine acting as the symbol for his Domain mentioned don't have anything to underline Concept Manip, no concepts are mentioned here, this is just the user of a barrier needing to have an image of the barrier in their head to create it and Sukuna's shrine acting as a marker for his Domain's location rather than being the source of his Domain itself. Tengen's consciousness, which is kept from merging from the world due to their skill in Barrier Techniques, was posited as a "personal concept" even though we don't treat the soul and consciousness as being conceptual automatically. As such barriers should have their Type 3 CM removed.
tl;dr: Kenjaku refers to Ganesha being unable to contain Garuda under what its technique could recognise due to Star Rage's Virtual Mass, not a "target concept" of Yuki's technique that can be applied to the mechanisms of Cursed Techniques in general, the justifications for Type 2 CM for Yuki, Gojo and Sukuna's techniques don't hold up, Yuki's technique should be Type 3 CM and Barrier Techniques in general don't have anything that underlines CM.
This concludes my revision.
Agree: @Deagonx, @Damage3245, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Shadowbokunohero (Agrees with removing Void Manip from Purple), @Duedate8898 (Agrees with removing Void Manip from Purple and Type 2 CM from Sukuna), @Dalesean027, @Planck69
Disagree: @Dr._whiteee (Disagrees with removing Type 2 Info and CM), @Duedate8898 (Disagrees with removing Type 2 Info from the verse and Type 2 CM from Gojo)
Neutral: @Duedate8898 (Neutral on CM for Cursed Techniques in general and for Barriers)
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