Jujutsu Kaisen Hax/Ability Upgrade Thread Pt. 3.5

[Dr._whiteee]

Hello all, this thread will continue the last upgrade thread I made. Void Manipulation and Concept Type 3 for jujutsu was contested in the last thread and in the interest of passing the other abilities, it was decided to move this discussion to another thread. I would ask that a staff tag the mods who participated in the discussion last thread so they can make their piece known again in addition to Ontology experts such as DT, and Ultima, given the gridlock last thread. So, without further ado, I will be addressing those arguments again.

Background

As established in the Ontology thread, Buddhism is an inseparable component of jujutsu and the overall ontology of the jujutsu kaisen verse. Gege himself even ascribes to Buddhism being an integral foundation of the story's mythos. While there is a large volume of direct correlates we could point out here (which can be found in the ontology blog), I will stick to those I find most important.

1. The system of jujutsu and the golden age of cursed users directly proceeded Tengen's spreading of Buddhism and Jujutsu side by side in the period preceding the Golden age of sorcery; the Hieian period. This is important as it establishes Tengen as an authority on jujutsu and as the one who spread knowledge of it throughout Japan, thus creating a formalized system that led to the establishment of Jujutsu society, so much so, that the first cohort to hear her teaching were considered the standard of jujutsu innovation. It also clearly ties into the system of jujutsu to Buddhism as the two were taught complimentary to one another by Tengen. Thus, the ontological truths of Buddhism clearly play a crucial role in Jujutsu overall.
2. Jujutsu is a phenomenon that almost exclusively appears in Japan. This phenomenon can once again be attributed to Tengen. Tengen only spread his teachings to those in Japan, and while jujutsu did exist before Tengen (evidenced by users such as Dhruv and the existence of the foreign Ganesha curse), outside of Migeul and his tribe's mysterious rope, the phenomena has only been observed in countries with a history of Buddhism (China, Japan, and India). Tengen further cemented this by creating barriers surrounding Japan in order to keep CE influence confined to a strict area.
3. Buddhism is directly intertwined with the power system and verse ontology. We've seen the cycle of rebirth exist, CE acting as purification and thus removing one from the cycle of rebirths, Tengen dissociating his ego to become one with the universe, etc. More directly, we have things such as mudra being integral to domain users conceptualizing their domains. These mudra typically directly correlate with their character in some way. This is extremely important given the conceptual mechanics of how barriers work.

Void Manipulation

With the context out of the way, I want to address the abilities from the last thread that had some contention. Starting off we will address void manipulation. As a brief summary, Sunyata is a concept from Buddhism that espouses that all things in existence inherently lack identity and are always changing. Thus, all things contain a certain "emptiness" from which different forms can arise from. In the JJK verse this has been alluded to and outright mentioned as a part of the verse, so let us look at the important mentions and implications.

1. Mahito is an excellent starting point given his ability gives him extreme insight into the nature of the souls and the ability to read souls. Mahito outright claims that Buddhist monks/practitioners were "experts of carving out their soul from external matter" and Mahito points out that the Buddhist monk he befriends is able to seem precisely because of his deep practice of Buddhism. This is important because it establishes once again that Buddhism has a direct correlation to jujutsu and cursed energy. It's also important to note that Mahito makes these comments about Buddhism after reading through a copy of the "Heart Sutra". This important teaching in Buddhism encapsulates the concept of Sunyata with its famous quote " Form is emptiness, emptiness is form" further highlighting it's direct correlation to the jujutsu world.
2. Next, I will move on to Gojo, as he has had two experiences with this "void". The first time this happens is after Gojo experiences near death at Toji's hands. This causes him to experience "the core of cursed energy" at death's door and skyrockets not only his physical ability but also his grasp of jujutsu. We clearly see the "core" Gojo describes is the black canvas with white dots intermixed that Gege constantly uses when speaking of ontological concepts. We see this rear its head again when Gojo is deciphering how Sukuna is redirecting unlimited Void to Megumi. The six eyes is clearly able to gaze beyond Sukuna to see the canvas housing Sukuna and Megumi's soul.
3. We see Gege utilize this same canvas imagery when discussing how Cursed techniques are passed on.
4. Black flash is another perfect example. This mark of pure cursed energy control is accomplished by applying cursed energy to an attack in 0.000001 seconds. This creates a distortion in space which once again unlocks "the core of cursed energy" exposing the same black (where the technique gets its name from) starry canvas and bringing the user immensely closer to a true understanding of cursed energy.
5. Notably, when Kenjaku is discussing how life takes shape, he explicitly mentions that cursed energy is what gives form to humans, sorcerers, and curses alike in the form of possibilities. We know this also extends to animals as well given Mei Mei's binding vow. Kenjaku mentions that this form (which his goal is to perfect) is "always flickering darkly in chaos," and we are given a shot of the white form taking shape in the darkness. This is important as it confirms the idea the "form" and "possibilities" exist distinct from sentient and beings and that this energy/chaos directly drive the progression of life and existence. Kenjaku also alludes to this non-dual nature when transporting humans from his barrier as a means of staying true to his binding vow, here, he states that the "space between dream and reality is a curse". This harkens back to the concept in jujutsu that the mind/body split is a false duality [2] underlined by information. Information being necessary to dictate form from emptiness, and this "information" is always "flickering in chaos" and being driven by sentient beings who exist as a totality of those levels of reality.
6. Sukuna is our second most important character, as he is consistently shown to be associated and interacting with this void. When Sukuna is trapped inside Mahito's domain, the scenery switches from the audience's perspective of Mahito/Nanami within his domain and explicitly shows us the interaction of Mahito's domain/Sukuna's innate domain and soul occurring on the black and starry canvas. Here is able to hit Mahito from his innate domain due to the temporary linkage. When Sukuna fights we can also at time see this canvas be portrayed (although in a grey tone given it's superimposition over reality). Here you can he slashes Mahoraga with his slash only visible to us. He then exclaims that "Mahoraga can see it" after he adapts and counters his next volley. Similarly, when Sukuna finally gets his hands on Yuji, we can see that the only time we can his slashes are when we get this grey paneling, indicating a layer of reality that only Sukuna can see. Sukuna's ability to paint his domain over reality also directly touches upon this concept of Finally, we see this a final time with Sukuna when he explains how he cut through infinity. During this scan, Sukuna discusses how he needed to target beyond just space and the world, but ultimately hit existence itself to put him in a pack. During this scene we clearly see Sukuna once again cutting through this void, only this time it's completely black like the others and not grey, indicating Sukuna is hitting the bare bones existence unlike his normal slashes.
7. Finally, we get to our last and most important player: Tengen. As you know, Tengen is an immortal hermit who acted as the founder of the formalized understanding of Jujutsu that persists to the modern era, as well as the person responsible for zoning the influence of jujutsu across the world. As discussed earlier, Tengen did this while also spreading Buddhism, underlying how intertwined the two systems are. We know that because Tengen was able to dissolve their ego and become one with existence that their consciousness is effectively immortal. In fact, the keep their ego as a distinct entity, they must use barrier jutsu to separate themselves from existence. this is why she requires a star plasma vessel so that she can animate once again by rewriting the physical information of her host. Now, early on we are told by Gege in the databook that Tengen lives in a "special barrier" (this barrier stated to be the "essence of jujutsu" [2]) that only those invited by Tengen can enter. We are later informed that this barrier is a "Sunyata Barrier" which allows for advanced barrier users to completely configure its shape. The natural state of this barrier is inherently blank but can be formed into fractal geometry, movies theatres, etc. During Tengen's explanation, he directly states that these Sunyata barriers are configurable by barrier users to some extent (depending on their skill) and we are given a direct footnote to contextualize the meaning of Sunyata which is as follows

"Sunyata is a Buddhist concept of emptiness, which all things are ultimately made out of"​

This footnote is obviously important as it contextualizes the "special barrier" that Tengen was stated to exist in, explains why the space in the barrier can be configured by people, and also directly translates this nature to barrier users, who, despite never stepping foot in the barrier, would be able to somewhat configure it due to experience using barrier techniques in general. For proof of this, we can look at the first time an individual awoke their domain on screen which happens to bring us back to Mahito. When Mahito first realizes his innate domain, he discusses feeling the core of his soul (note the same black starry canvas) and then creates a barrier to trap Nanami. We clearly see that this barrier consists of the same canvas shown a trillion times throughout this thread as it lifts Yuji away to isolate him.

Conclusion: Barrier users and Black Flash users should be given Void Manipulation. Information type 2 for the verse should be given specific Non-duality for the material-spiritual split and Void should be considered a layer beneath this.

Concept Manipulation Type 3 for CT

This section I would like to keep short as a lot of the information should be common knowledge and also because of the consequences of the above information. As we know by now, the JJK ontology is founded upon by void which then sparks Info type 2 to give form to the Material/Spiritual split that most humans live their lives by and generally understand. Due to this, reality is inherently driven largely by mental processes which must use a conduit of physicality (Tengen needs a body for their consciousness, Kenjaku propagates his ego via the brain, incarnated sorcerers need a host body, etc). This is first established by curses themselves. The weakest of curses exist as an amalgamation of the thought content possessed by their owners before death or trauma. Imaginary vengeful spirits are the result of collective human conceptions such as the Nine Tail fox and most other notable curses are the result of human conceptualization towards different phenomena such as grasshoppers, smallpox, the Earth, the Sea, etc. We also know that barriers are conceptual, given their construction being mediated through the use of symbology and imagery when manifesting into reality, also making said constructs "non-existent". This ontology is obviously very important to understand how CE is operating to perform CT.

When it comes to CT, we are directly told that Cursed techniques operate by targeting a concept. In addition to this, as seen with Sukuna, the target of the technique can also be switched to concepts (which makes sense given CT works on cursed spirits). This is directly proven to be universal by Kenjaku who is using gross knowledge of CT to figure out yuki. This is separately confirmed when Kenjaku states that the entirety of his cursed spirit army is now useless against Yuki due to her ability to ignore concepts. Mahito also espouses that humans are inherently trapped by the concepts that dictate their life via interaction with the soul. In addition to this, we learn from Urauma that their cursed techniques encapsulate "the essence" of Ice with her frost calm, which directly would correlate to something conceptual given the above. As discussed in this thread [2] with DT, such things would indeed qualify as Concept Manipulation type 3 at the bare minimum, thanks to their encapsulation of essence and JJK's inherent ontology.

Conclusion: All CT gain type 3 concept manip outside of those who qualify for type 2.

Staff Vote:
Agree:
Disagree:
Other:

 

[M3X_2.0]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

Who else was there?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

Who else was there?

Deagon, DarkGrath, Dereck03, Maverick,Duedate, and Elizha. Thanks btw.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Deagonx @DarkGrath @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Duedate8898 @Elizhaa

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Mahito also espouses that humans are inherently trapped by the concepts that dictate their life via interaction with the soul.

I don't really wanna participate in this thread but I have a problem with this.

This is talking about concepts as in mental ideas and how humans are controlled by their common sense or emotions.

 

[Phoenks]

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Dr._whiteee you might wanna make this staff only

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I don't really wanna participate in this thread but I have a problem with this.

This is talking about concepts as in mental ideas and how humans are controlled by their common sense or emotions.

Yeah, as established in the thread, JJK reality isn't inherently physical. It's informational at its core and driven by cognition. Thus, mental concepts that interact with the would inherently would be concept type 3 at bare minimum. This is the same ontological dynamic present in verses such as Megami Tensei.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

@Dr._whiteee you might wanna make this staff only

I would indeed like to request that but didn't know I could. Although I would like for knowledgeable members such as Gin, Maitreya, and others to also give input, although I guess they could just ask for permission.

 

[Righttt]

Interesting..

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I don't really wanna participate in this thread but I have a problem with this.

This is talking about concepts as in mental ideas and how humans are controlled by their common sense or emotions.

I'll explain a bit so I'm more clear on what I mean.

A while back, Mahito learnt some vocabulary that had to do with the concepts of the actions of humans.
Such as something they called philosophy; something they called common sense; something they called emotion.
When the soul received external stimuli, it will generate a mechanical reaction and transfigure.
The bodies of humans were controlled by these concepts and they cowered under the gazes of orders, catered to the standards of the world and were willing to abandon their freedom to live.

It's talking about how the soul responds to the emotions and common sense of humans, kind of like a relationship between mind and soul and how the soul basically responds to the emotions output from the mind. Then goes on some philosophical explanation on how humans are controlled by said human constructs and not necessarily in an metaphysical (CM qualifying concepts since mind and soul ARE metaphysical sorry should've been more clear) sense.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Thread was moved to staff discussion thanks to Lonkitt. Now regular members can only comment given permission.

And since I’m not knowledgeable enough about these kind of stuff, I will refrain from commenting too.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It's talking about how the soul responds to the emotions and common sense of humans, kind of like a relationship between mind and soul and how the soul basically responds to the emotions output from the mind. Then goes on some philosophical explanation on how humans are controlled by said human constructs and not necessarily in an metaphysical sense.

Outside of the above point I made about JJK reality being inherently abstract, if the concepts Mahito is talking about are "interacting with the soul" they'd inherently be metaphysical, as Mahito is outright implying such concepts interact with the soul which lead to physical behavior, not the other way around. Mahito even addresses this in the manga proper when he talks about humans overthinking things like "emotion" (which is referenced in the novel scan) which they can't see but he can.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Most of the real big cosmology stuff is over my head. But Void Manipulation does look good not to mention Dr Whitnee has been generally pretty good at analyzing stuff like that from my experience. So I am leaning towards the OP being fine but might need input from some of those aforementioned pinged experts.

 

[Udlmaster]

1. Mahito is an excellent starting point given his ability gives him extreme insight into the nature of the souls and the ability to read souls. Mahito outright claims that Buddhist monks/practitioners were "experts of carving out their soul from external matter" and Mahito points out that the Buddhist monk he befriends is able to seem precisely because of his deep practice of Buddhism. This is important because it establishes once again that Buddhism has a direct correlation to jujutsu and cursed energy. It's also important to note that Mahito makes these comments about Buddhism after reading through a copy of the "Heart Sutra". This important teaching in Buddhism encapsulates the concept of Sunyata with its famous quote " Form is emptiness, emptiness is form" further highlighting it's direct correlation to the jujutsu world.

Already we find issue. Buddhism doesn't have a soul, that is to say, in Buddhism, souls don't exist.

I'll use famous Buddhist literature to explain this;

It must be repeated here that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no permanent, unchanging spirit which can be considered 'Self', or 'Soul', or 'Ego', as opposed to matter, and that consciousness should not be taken as 'spirit' in opposition to matter. This point has to be particularly emphasized, because a wrong notion that consciousness is a sort of Self or Soul that continues as a permanent substance through life, has persisted from the earliest time to present day. - What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula

To go further, you bring up the Heart sutra being used, well, in the Heart Sutra, there's explicitly NO soul, it doesn't exist, in fact, the Heart Sutra, a Mahayana text/sutra explicitly falls hard on Sunyata, how all things are empty and have nothingness.

Here then, Form is no other than emptiness,
Emptiness no other than form.
Form is only emptiness,
Emptiness only form.
Feeling, thought, and choice,
Consciousness itself, Are the same as this.
All things are by nature void
They are not born or destroyed
Nor are they stained or pure
Nor do they wax or wane
So, in emptiness, no form, No feeling, thought, or choice,
Nor is there consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; No colour, sound, smell, taste, touch,
Or what the mind takes hold of, Nor even act of sensing.

If you were to say Buddhism and "curse energy" have any correction because the Author read the Heart sutra, then the author failed at the first hurtle.

. Kenjaku also alludes to this non-dual nature when transporting humans from his barrier as a means of staying true to his binding vow, here, he states that the "space between dream and reality is a curse".

Allude is a very neat word to use when it's not describing anything non-dual at all, "between dream and reality" aren't inherently non-dual necessarily, simply you can be in a liminal state, which, if you're using a very broad definition of duality, then would also be non-dual.

In summation, rather arbitrary.

This harkens back to the concept in jujutsu that the mind/body split is a false duality [2] underlined by information.

This is incompatible with Buddhism.

An extract from the Diamond Sutra;

“Subhuti, do not say that the Buddha has the idea, ‘I will lead all sentient beings to Nirvana.’ Do not think that way, Subhuti. Why? In truth there is not one single being for the Buddha to lead to Enlightenment. If the Buddha were to think there was, he would be caught in the idea of a self, a person, a living being, or a universal self. Subhuti, what the Buddha calls a self essentially has no self in the way that ordinary persons think there is a self. Subhuti, the Buddha does not regard anyone as an ordinary person. That is why he can speak of them as ordinary persons.” - The Diamond Sutra, Chapter 25

Information being necessary to dictate form from emptiness, and this "information" is always "flickering in chaos" and being driven by sentient beings who exist as a totality of those levels of reality.

He seems to say the opposite of "emptiness", in fact, he says "We exist in this world... with our entire body, mind and soul. It's so obvious..."

---

Honestly, there's not much to add. After reading more material from this angle of speculation, I'm more and more horrified at the sheer misunderstanding of Buddhism going on, for example, from the Sandbox written by Dr. Whiteee

Dharma - roughly known as "cosmic law and order" the Dharma is a concept encompassing many things, but most notably it is meant to symbolize conditioned existence and the causality that drives it.

No. This is fractally wrong in so many ways. Dharma doesn't symbolize conditioned existence, Dharma specifically is the teachings of the Buddha;

But according to the unbroken age-old tradition in Buddhist countries, one is considered a Buddhist if one takes the Buddha, the Dhamma (the Teaching), and the Sanga(The Order of Monks)-generally called 'the Triple-Gem'- What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula

Likewise, the Dharma has nothing to do with the causality "that drives it". The only things which relate to this are the Four Noble Truths;

• Dukkha
• Samudaya
• Nirodha
• Marga

However, none of these are the Dharma, they are espoused in the Dharma, but they are not it.

Angel's discussion of her Buddhist ideologue,

There exists no God in Buddhism, nor is there a being who sets down the laws of the Universe. These are more incompatibilities.

Dependent Origination/Sunyata - Dependent Origination is essentially the idea that every phenomena arises pre-existing phenomena and thus are linked by causality and dependent upon certain conditions for their sustained "essence".

No. That is the exact opposite of what Dependent Origination means.

Firstly, Dependent Origination and Sunyata should not be grouped together as if they're the same concept, because they couldn't be more vastly different.

Secondly, Dependent Origination is a Buddhist core idea that nothing arises separately, that something is more fundamental than anything else. There exists no "pre-existing phenomena" and there are no causal links between any of them, they all arise simultaneously.

It should be clearly remembered that each of these factors is conditioned (paticcasamuppantia) as well as conditioning (paticcasamuppada). Therefore they are all relative, interdependent and interconnected, and nothing is absolute or independent; hence no first cause is accepted by Buddhism as we have seen earlier. Conditioned Genesis should be considered as a circle, and not as a chain. - What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula

Sunyata, is therefore a consequence and is the idea of inherent "emptiness" of all things. This should not necessarily be confused with nothingness, rather the idea that all of existence is causal and thus cannot sustain an inherent and unperishable identity.

No. Absolutely not.

Sunyata is the idea that all things are empty of intrinsic existence, there's nothing fundamental. Sunyata has nothing to do with causality.

---

I won't bother with much else, since most of it ties back to the series, which isn't my concern, only the aspects pertaining to Buddhism are, but ultimately no.

I don't find JJK compatible with Buddhism, and I don't think ideas from Buddhism should be used for JJK's abilities, likewise, I find the visual evidence to be likewise, unflattering.

 

[Deagonx]

It also clearly ties into the system of jujutsu to Buddhism as the two were taught complimentary to one another by Tengen. Thus, the ontological truths of Buddhism clearly play a crucial role in Jujutsu overall.

This is, IMO, an egregious non-sequitur. The fact that Tengen spread Buddhism does not constitute a sound basis for incorporating real life info about Buddhism into our indexing of JJK unless that specific piece of information is stated within the verse to be true. Any fictional verse incorporating religion into its power system -- in my experience -- takes great great liberty in the way it portrays it, which makes it impossible to extrapolate beyond what the verse tells us. I believe the post above mine demonstrates this well.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Already we find issue. Buddhism doesn't have a soul, that is to say, in Buddhism, souls don't exist.

I'll use famous Buddhist literature to explain this;

Yeah, I know this. The thread goes on at length explaining the the mind/body split is a false duality and how Sunyata is the fundamental existence. That doesn't stop the soul from being existent as a form, which is blatantly demonstrated by the existence of Mahito, innate domains, etc.

To go further, you bring up the Heart sutra being used, well, in the Heart Sutra, there's explicitly NO soul, it doesn't exist, in fact, the Heart Sutra, a Mahayana text/sutra explicitly falls hard on Sunyata, how all things are empty and have nothingness.

Yep. once again, that's the point of this thread. I don't really quite get your points here.

If you were to say Buddhism and "curse energy" have any correction because the Author read the Heart sutra, then the author failed at the first hurtle.

?

Allude is a very neat word to use when it's not describing anything non-dual at all, "between dream and reality" aren't inherently non-dual necessarily, simply you can be in a liminal state, which, if you're using a very broad definition of duality, then would also be non-dual.

In summation, rather arbitrary.

It's not really arbitrary, it's quite literally the interstitial between the false duality of mind and matter as discussed several times in this response. Ngl this response seems rather "arbitrary".

This is incompatible with Buddhism.

An extract from the Diamond Sutra;

He seems to say the opposite of "emptiness", in fact, he says "We exist in this world... with our entire body, mind and soul. It's so obvious..."

It seems you don't quite understand what is being argued here.

To start, this is a fictional verse. So, obviously there are going to be departures from IRL buddhism. This thread is not to make JJK an exact 1 to 1 correlate with Buddhism, as obviously, Buddhist in real life aren't running around with superpowers and I'm also clearly not trying to use buddhist cosmology here. That doesn't stop the verse from using buddhist ontology as the foundation for the verses power mechanics. To address the above:

I'm not sure how you are arguing that the mind/body split being a false duality is incompatible with Buddhism, as Sunyata and Dependant origination are quite literally foundational to Buddhism. Furthermore you misunderstand the actual teaching of Anatta. Annata doesn't state that things like consciousness don't actually exist, just that those things are not permanent and thus, ultimately going to change in form and won't lead to a permanent state unlike the conception of the soul in other religions.

Anatta, (Pali: “non-self” or “substanceless”) in Buddhism, the doctrine that there is in humans no permanent, underlying substance that can be called the soul. Instead, the individual is compounded of five factors (Pali khandha; Sanskrit skandha) that are constantly changing.The concept of anatta, or anatman, is a departure from the Hindu belief in atman (“the self”). The absence of a self, anicca (the impermanence of all being), and dukkha (“suffering”) are the three characteristics of all existence (ti-lakkhana). Recognition of these three doctrines—anatta, anicca, and dukkha—constitutes “right understanding.”

This is quite literally what Todo is espousing when teaching Yuji how to utilize his cursed energy and saying people exist as mind, body, and soul all at once. This also inherently bolsters my point as it outlines how cognitive/mental factors dominate the reality for humans, something especially true in JJK regarding Jujutsu. You can see the diagram here explaining the five factors

No. This is fractally wrong in so many ways. Dharma doesn't symbolize conditioned existence, Dharma specifically is the teachings of the Buddha;

You are incorrect.

In Buddhism, the Dharma Chakra is widely used to represent the Buddha's Dharma (Buddha's teaching and the universal moral order), Gautama Buddha himself and the walking of the path to enlightenment, since the time of Early Buddhism.[10][1][note 1] The symbol is also sometimes connected to the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path and Dependent Origination. The pre-Buddhist dharmachakra (Pali: dhammacakka) is considered one of the ashtamangala (auspicious signs) in Hinduism and Buddhism and often used as a symbol of both faiths.[11][note 2] It is one of the oldest known Indian symbols found in Indian art, appearing with the first surviving post-Indus Valley Civilisation Indian iconography in the time of the Buddhist king Ashoka.[10][note 1]

The Buddha is said to have set the "wheel of dharma" in motion when he delivered his first sermon,[12] which is described in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. This "turning of the wheel" signifies a great and revolutionary change with universal consequences, brought about by an exceptional human being.

In Buddhism, dharma refers to "cosmic law and order",[12][15] as expressed by the teachings of the Buddha.[12][15] In Buddhist philosophy, dhamma/dharma is also the term for "phenomena".[16][note 2] Dharma in Jainism refers to the teachings of Tirthankara (Jina)[12] and the body of doctrine pertaining to the purification and moral transformation of humans. In Sikhism, dharma indicates the path of righteousness, proper religious practices, and performing one's own moral duties

In Buddhism the actions of sentient being drive the chain of existence, this is also why Karma exist and karma acts as the causal mover of the universal order. That's the whole reason for Buddha teaching about the eightfold path.

Likewise, the Dharma has nothing to do with the causality "that drives it". The only things which relate to this are the Four Noble Truths;

• Dukkha
• Samudaya
• Nirodha
• Marga

However, none of these are the Dharma, they are espoused in the Dharma, but they are not it.

Yeah, so I just proved you wrong here in the above and outlined how you misunderstand the universal consequences of the dharma and what it actually is.

Furthermore, you haven't even really addressed any of the stuff in the OP at this point...It seems your post s mostly trying to...poke fun at my "misunderstanding" of Buddhism?

There exists no God in Buddhism, nor is there a being who sets down the laws of the Universe. These are more incompatibilities.

If you would have actually read the scan, Angel uses the term "God" as a bridge to the others who weren't aware of her clans creed. She is not saying her clan believes in a deity.

Correct, there isn't a being that sets down the laws, but there are laws. That's the whole reason Dharma and Karma exist in Buddhism. Let's look at Angel's actual quote

Angel: It's something that should not be happening. It goes against the laws of God.
Megumi: God?
Angel: A name given to my creed for simplicity sake. You can ignore it if you like.

So yeah the above point is moot given she isn't actually claiming what you are saying she is.

No. That is the exact opposite of what Dependent Origination means.

Firstly, Dependent Origination and Sunyata should not be grouped together as if they're the same concept, because they couldn't be more vastly different.

Secondly, Dependent Origination is a Buddhist core idea that nothing arises separately, that something is more fundamental than anything else. There exists no "pre-existing phenomena" and there are no causal links between any of them, they all arise simultaneously.

No lol.

First off, Dependent origination and Sunyata are indeed intertwined and directly correlated. Things need a dependent origination specifically because Sunyata is the inherent state of existence...

You are also wrong in your interpretation of Dependent origination and causality...Dependent Origination is not a causality free system and things do indeed "arise from pre-existing phenomena" that's quite literally what the word "Dependant" means in the term.

Dependent origination can be contrasted with the classic Western concept of causation in which an action by one thing is said to cause a change in another thing. Dependent origination instead views the change as being caused by many factors, not just one or even a few.[15]

The principle of dependent origination has a variety of philosophical implications.

• As an ontological principle (i.e., as a metaphysical concept about the nature of existence), it holds that all phenomena arise from other, pre-existing phenomena, and in turn current phenomena condition future phenomena. As such, everything in the world has been produced by causes.[16][17][18] Traditionally, this is also closely connected to the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth, and how rebirth occurs without a fixed self or soul, but as a process conditioned by various phenomena and their relations.[17]
• As an epistemological principle (i.e., as a theory about knowledge),[19] it holds that there are no permanent and stable things, though there are classes of permanent phenomena vis. space (vacuum), cessations (including nirvana), and suchness (the absence of self, namely, anatta).[20][21] Because everything is dependently originated, nothing is permanent (hence the Buddhist concept of impermanence, anicca) and nothing has any self-nature or essence (anatta).[22][21][23] Consequently, all phenomena lack essence.[19] In various traditions, this is closely associated with the doctrine of emptiness (śūnyatā).[24]
• As a phenomenological or psychological principle, it refers to the workings of the mind and how suffering, craving, and self-view arise.[5] This can refer to how different mental states condition each other over time, or to how different mental phenomena condition each other in a single moment.

So therefore your two claims:

Firstly, Dependent Origination and Sunyata should not be grouped together as if they're the same concept, because they couldn't be more vastly different.

Secondly, Dependent Origination is a Buddhist core idea that nothing arises separately, that something is more fundamental than anything else. There exists no "pre-existing phenomena" and there are no causal links between any of them, they all arise simultaneously.

Are just demonstrably incorrect.

No. Absolutely not.

Sunyata is the idea that all things are empty of intrinsic existence, there's nothing fundamental. Sunyata has nothing to do with causality.

---

I won't bother with much else, since most of it ties back to the series, which isn't my concern, only the aspects pertaining to Buddhism are, but ultimately no.

I don't find JJK compatible with Buddhism, and I don't think ideas from Buddhism should be used for JJK's abilities, likewise, I find the visual evidence to be likewise, unflattering.

The rest of this doesn't mean much, you've not only demonstrated that you lack the actual knowledge of the Buddhist concepts discussed here, but you've also simultaneously not really addressed the thread as far as abilities go and the actual claims I am making about the Buddhist influence in JJK. I'd appreciate if you could actually do this should you respond back.

This is, IMO, an egregious non-sequitur. The fact that Tengen spread Buddhism does not constitute a sound basis for incorporating real life info about Buddhism into our indexing of JJK unless that specific piece of information is stated within the verse to be true. Any fictional verse incorporating religion into its power system -- in my experience -- takes great great liberty in the way it portrays it, which makes it impossible to extrapolate beyond what the verse tells us. I believe the post above mine demonstrates this well.

Not quite sure how you'd view this as a "non-sequitur". The point is that the system of Jujutsu was directly formulated from Tengen's knowledge and the subsequent spread of Buddhism. This makes to the systems inherently linked as the superpowers of the verse originate from the knowledge gained from the religion.

I also spent this whole thread pointing out the "specific pieces of information" present in the verse. At no point in this thread am I pulling stuff from Buddhism without citing how it takes form in the reality of JJK, and I have more than proved that not only is buddhism the foundation for the powers (in verse and via author comment) but also directly correlated to the powers themselves such as is the case with Mudra for domains, Buddhist scriptures being used to seal evil, characters receiving power ups from enlightenment, etc.

I disagree that "the post above" represents your point well, as Udl misinterpreted several key concepts of Buddhism and, in addition to this, did not remotely address the actual JJK content of the thread (outside of misinterpreting what Angel said about her creed), so I don't see how his post would add to your point of "extrapolation beyond what the verse tells us.".

 

[Dr._whiteee]

As an aside, I will be on vacation for 6 days starting tomorrow morning. I will try to address any posts before then and will also intermittently check in with the thread while I am out but I cannot promise that I will be able to respond in full. I ask that the staff grant me some patience as I will be able to get right back into the swing of things after my vacation is over.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Planck69 gave me permission to post here.

Spoiler

Next, I will move on to Gojo, as he has had two experiences with this "void". The first time this happens is after Gojo experiences near death at Toji's hands. This causes him to experience "the core of cursed energy" at death's door and skyrockets not only his physical ability but also his grasp of jujutsu. We clearly see the "core" Gojo describes is the black canvas with white dots intermixed that Gege constantly uses when speaking of ontological concepts.

Maitreya had addressed this line of thinking in the previous thread:

This is especially something that I think is a problem since you’re going off interpretation of what a “blank canvas” to try and prove as evidence for ontological likeness when literally none of the “blank canvas” prove the claim they’re making. You’re interpreting it to mean what you say it means but you having that interpretation doesn’t mean it’s founded in the series.

None of the examples you cite inherently prove “Gege doing this to address deeper ontological aspects” you are simply interpreting them to be that way.

These are white backgrounds, you’re interpreting them to mean as ontological underpinnings of “emptiness” in the verse but your interpretation of what you think these blank canvas’ represent I don’t find to be evidence for any of the claims you’re meaning since they’re only based on what you’re interpreting those white background images to be, and to try and claim those white background images are inherent evidences to the ontology of the series when they don’t have to be that way at all.

Those “blank canvas’” can just be white backgrounds used in the series that don’t have any deeper meanings onto the ontology of the verse.

The white circles in Gojo's panel talking about the "core of cursed energy" aren't even consistent with the white dots presented in other pieces of evidence.

We see this rear its head again when Gojo is deciphering how Sukuna is redirecting unlimited Void to Megumi. The six eyes is clearly able to gaze beyond Sukuna to see the canvas housing Sukuna and Megumi's soul.

That isn't even a black canvas, that's just a blurred background.

We see Gege utilize this same canvas imagery when discussing how Cursed techniques are passed on.

That's just a representation of a bloodline with a black background.

Black flash is another perfect example. This mark of pure cursed energy control is accomplished by applying cursed energy to an attack in 0.000001 seconds. This creates a distortion in space which once again unlocks "the core of cursed energy" exposing the same black (where the technique gets its name from) starry canvas and bringing the user immensely closer to a true understanding of cursed energy.

Black Flash is never even remotely implied to be reveal a representation of Sunyata (something that should be vital to the verse's ontology) even with its extensive coverage and explanations seen in the manga, volume extras and official fanbook which makes it evident that this idea of Black Flash revealing a canvas to represent Sunyata isn't one really founded in the series.

the form of possibilities.

He says non-sorcerers, sorcerers and cursed spirits are possibilities of cursed energy in the form of human beings, that just sounds like CE in humans leads to non-sorcerers, sorcerers and cursed spirits arising.

Kenjaku mentions that this form (which his goal is to perfect) is "always flickering darkly in chaos," and we are given a shot of the white form taking shape in the darkness. This is important as it confirms the idea the "form" and "possibilities" exist distinct from sentient and beings and that this energy/chaos directly drive the progression of life and existence.

"There must be something more to human potential. I tried to bring forth that potential myself..."
"But that doesn't work. What I can create does not exceed the bounds of my own potetnial. The answer is always flickering darkly in chaos. Do you understand? What I should have created was chaos that not even I could control."
I don't see how Kenjaku is talking about chaos as some abstraction that governs existence.

Information being necessary to dictate form from emptiness

That's just Tengen knowing what's in their barrier.

Sukuna is our second most important character, as he is consistently shown to be associated and interacting with this void. When Sukuna is trapped inside Mahito's domain, the scenery switches from the audience's perspective of Mahito/Nanami within his domain and explicitly shows us the interaction of Mahito's domain/Sukuna's innate domain and soul occurring on the black and starry canvas. Here is able to hit Mahito from his innate domain due to the temporary linkage. When Sukuna fights we can also at time see this canvas be portrayed (although in a grey tone given it's superimposition over reality). Here you can he slashes Mahoraga with his slash only visible to us. He then exclaims that "Mahoraga can see it" after he adapts and counters his next volley. Similarly, when Sukuna finally gets his hands on Yuji, we can see that the only time we can his slashes are when we get this grey paneling, indicating a layer of reality that only Sukuna can see. Sukuna's ability to paint his domain over reality also directly touches upon this concept of Finally, we see this a final time with Sukuna when he explains how he cut through infinity. During this scan, Sukuna discusses how he needed to target beyond just space and the world, but ultimately hit existence itself to put him in a pack. During this scene we clearly see Sukuna once again cutting through this void, only this time it's completely black like the others and not grey, indicating Sukuna is hitting the bare bones existence unlike his normal slashes.

If Sukuna's regular slashes were targeting a higher level of reality then physical toughness on a regular plane below it wouldn't resist them, his spatial slash negates durability with that principle. Domains have that same black canvas imagery yet characters who can realize their Innate Domains can't see Sukuna's regular slashes despite this supposed hierarchy, hell Gege uses a black background in that fight with Mahoraga when Sukuna sees its sword is enveloped in positive energy. Gege using a black panel to represent Sukuna's world cutting slash doesn't mean it represents something ontological every other time it's used.

Now, early on we are told by Gege in the databook that Tengen lives in a "special barrier" (this barrier stated to be the "essence of jujutsu" [2]) that only those invited by Tengen can enter. We are later informed that this barrier is a "Sunyata Barrier" which allows for advanced barrier users to completely configure its shape. The natural state of this barrier is inherently blank but can be formed into fractal geometry, movies theatres, etc. During Tengen's explanation, he directly states that these Sunyata barriers are configurable by barrier users to some extent (depending on their skill) and we are given a direct footnote to contextualize the meaning of Sunyata which is as follows

"Sunyata is a Buddhist concept of emptiness, which all things are ultimately made out of"

This footnote is obviously important as it contextualizes the "special barrier" that Tengen was stated to exist in, explains why the space in the barrier can be configured by people, and also directly translates this nature to barrier users, who, despite never stepping foot in the barrier, would be able to somewhat configure it due to experience using barrier techniques in general. For proof of this, we can look at the first time an individual awoke their domain on screen which happens to bring us back to Mahito. When Mahito first realizes his innate domain, he discusses feeling the core of his soul (note the same black starry canvas) and then creates a barrier to trap Nanami. We clearly see that this barrier consists of the same canvas shown a trillion times throughout this thread as it lifts Yuji away to isolate him.

Tengen's special barrier is in the Star Corridor and it hasn't been referred to as a Sunyata Barrier, in fact Kenjaku calls it a "Pure Barrier" and the Sunyata Barriers that we do know about are located in the Labyrinthine Barrier above the Star Corridor. Those scans of Mahito aren't even consistent with that paragraph, are these blank canvases white or black? Lastly, the footnote about Sunyata is just a translator's note from TCBscans explaining what Sunyata means in Buddhism which Maitreya has also addressed:

The translator’s note does not indicate that the Sunyata concept of emptiness being a foundation of reality in JJK however. It is simply in regards to Buddhism but is not extended upon to the series itself without an explicit confirmation of such.

The problem lies in things you’re claiming are supporting material for the ontology in JJK, that don’t actually qualify as evidence.

The translator’s note is another example which doesn’t contextualize anything besides what the term “Sunyata” means in Buddhism but can’t be used to contextualize anything within the series itself because the statement is not founded within the series itself. Just the outside source of the translator clarifying what the term Sunyata means in Buddhism.

I also find the Void > Type 2 Info proposal quite nonsensical considering 95% of the characters who can interact with the proposed void can't even perceive the soul.
Looks like it's been changed to Type 2 Info > Void which has similar issues like Sukuna perceiving souls but considering it to be a nigh-impossible task to target the void of existence as proposed

 

[SunDaGamer]

If you would have actually read the scan, Angel uses the term "God" as a bridge to the others who weren't aware of her clans creed. She is not saying her clan believes in a deity.

Angel literally has a technique named "Jacob's Ladder" (referencing the story in the Bible), has a panel referencing the Creation of Adam and refers to Sukuna as "The Fallen" which is a title associated with Satan. Angel is blatantly Abrahamic, not Buddhist.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, I know this. The thread goes on at length explaining the the mind/body split is a false duality

Supposing that it is, the Soul plays no part in that, the Soul isn't even a false duality in Buddhism like how the 5 sense aggregates are a result of Delusion, the Soul just doesn't exist, there is no soul for there to be even a false duality about.

You are incorrect.

No, I'm not, and your own evidence isn't THE Dharma, you showed the Dharmachakra, which isn't the Dharma.

Dharmachakra, or Dammahcakra is not the Dharma, it is the the symbolic representation of the Dharma, the Buddha's teaching, as the Wheel of Dharma, DHARMA CHAKRA.

For those not in the know, the Dharmachakra is the famous "Wheel of Buddhism" that you'll see representing Buddhism in many religious centres.

This is the equivalent of saying that the Bible and the Cross are the same thing.

In Buddhism, the Dharma Chakra is widely used to represent the Buddha's Dharma

How do you read that and go "Yeah, the Dharmachakra and the Dharma are totally the same." Your own source literally says this, did you bother to read it?

In fact, I know how, you did a bit of deceptive splicing there, using parts of Wikipedia's article on the Dharmachakra and then switch to the Dharma page without disclosing that fact to make it seem like one continuous narrative.

In Buddhism, the Dharma Chakra is widely used to represent the Buddha's Dharma (Buddha's teaching and the universal moral order), Gautama Buddha himself and the walking of the path to enlightenment, since the time of Early Buddhism.[10][1][note 1] The symbol is also sometimes connected to the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path and Dependent Origination. The pre-Buddhist dharmachakra (Pali: dhammacakka) is considered one of the ashtamangala (auspicious signs) in Hinduism and Buddhism and often used as a symbol of both faiths.[11][note 2] It is one of the oldest known Indian symbols found in Indian art, appearing with the first surviving post-Indus Valley Civilisation Indian iconography in the time of the Buddhist king Ashoka.[10][note 1]

The Buddha is said to have set the "wheel of dharma" in motion when he delivered his first sermon,[12] which is described in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. This "turning of the wheel" signifies a great and revolutionary change with universal consequences, brought about by an exceptional human being.

This is from the Dharma Chakra page.

In Buddhism, dharma refers to "cosmic law and order",[12][15] as expressed by the teachings of the Buddha.[12][15] In Buddhist philosophy, dhamma/dharma is also the term for "phenomena".[16][note 2] Dharma in Jainism refers to the teachings of Tirthankara (Jina)[12] and the body of doctrine pertaining to the purification and moral transformation of humans. In Sikhism, dharma indicates the path of righteousness, proper religious practices, and performing one's own moral duties

This is from the Dharma page, but without specifying where you got your sources from, it seem like they're all from the same place.

Yeah, so I just proved you wrong here in the above and outlined how you misunderstand the universal consequences of the dharma and what it actually is.

You literally just conflated the Dharma and Dharmachakra as the same thing not minutes before this.

Furthermore, you haven't even really addressed any of the stuff in the OP at this point...It seems your post s mostly trying to...poke fun at my "misunderstanding" of Buddhism?

I won't bother with much else, since most of it ties back to the series, which isn't my concern, only the aspects pertaining to Buddhism are, but ultimately no.

If you would have actually read the scan, Angel uses the term "God" as a bridge to the others who weren't aware of her clans creed. She is not saying her clan believes in a deity.

"It's something which should not happen. It goes against the laws of God."

"Nuuu, she doesn't actually mean what she's saying, she means this other thing that doesn't contradict my views."

Angel literally has a technique named "Jacob's Ladder" (referencing the story in the Bible), has a panel referencing the Creation of Adam and refers to Sukuna as "The Fallen" which is a title associated with Satan. Angel is blatantly Abrahamic, not Buddhist.

Thank you for that. Since my interests in this thread lies entirely on the Buddhist aspects of it, I wouldn't have been able to notice this bit of slippery deception.

So yeah the above point is moot given she isn't actually claiming what you are saying she is.

I don't find this remotely persuasive. If they wanted to mean the Dharma, they would have said that, after all, you've told us that the writer read sutras.

And, the concept they're espousing doesn't violate any laws in Buddhism. So she's obviously not talking from a Buddhist perspective.

To start, this is a fictional verse. So, obviously there are going to be departures from IRL buddhism. This thread is not to make JJK an exact 1 to 1 correlate with Buddhism, as obviously, Buddhist in real life aren't running around with superpowers and I'm also clearly not trying to use buddhist cosmology here. That doesn't stop the verse from using buddhist ontology as the foundation for the verses power mechanics.

This is just waffling and pre-empting.

If you do not believe they are compatible, then why bring it up in terms of Powers and Abilities if it has no relevance? Honestly, it more so seems you're throwing in Buddhist ideas to try and give weight to unsubstantiated things.

First off, Dependent origination and Sunyata are indeed intertwined and directly correlated.

No, they aren't. I showed above how they aren't, they all exist as a part of the Buddha's teachings (Dharma) but they aren't the same as you make out. Especially shown as you go on to make a huge error right after this.

You are also wrong in your interpretation of Dependent origination and causality...Dependent Origination is not a causality free system and things do indeed "arise from pre-existing phenomena" that's quite literally what the word "Dependant" means in the term.

I literally gave you a quote from one of the most famous Buddhist literatures in the world.

No, it doesn't, there is no first cause;

When applied to the problem of suffering, the abstract principle becomes encapsulated in a twelve-term formula disclosing the causal nexus responsible for the origination of suffering. It begins with ignorance, the primary root of the series though not a first cause, conditioning the arising of ethically determinate volitions, which in turn condition the arising of consciousness, and so on through the salient occasions of sentient becoming down to their conclusion in old age and death - Transcendental Dependent Arising Translation & Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta

What we have here is not an instance of simple, one-directional causality proceeding forward unmodified in a straight line; we have, rather, a species of teleological causality involving purpose, intelligence, and planned striving simultaneously projected towards and refracted from the aimed at effect in a process of reciprocal determination. - Transcendental Dependent Arising Translation & Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta

The rejection of arising from any one or other of the four categories of self, other, both or neither (non-causality), all types of extremes to be avoided, is a recurring theme throughout SN 12 Nidānasamyutta. Rejection of arising from “self” can be seen as further expressions of emptiness as not self (or what pertains to self), as the usual “self view” predominant in non-Buddhist Indian religious-philosophical systems was one of “existence”. - “Dependent Origination = Emptiness”—Nāgārjuna’s Innovation? An Examination of the Early and Mainstream Sectarian Textual Sources, pg. 18

A third principle, "co-dependent origination" (Sanskrit: Pratītyasamutpāda), highlights the interrelatedness of all things. According to this teaching, everything is tied together in a complex net of causes, so that there can be no "first cause" from which all things derive. - The encyclopaedia of world religions
by Ellwood, Robert S. Alles, Gregory D

It is this 'thirst', desire, greed, craving, manifesting itself in various ways, that gives rise to all forms of suffering and the Continuity of beings. But it should not be taken as the first cause, for there is no first cause possible as, according to Buddhism, everything is relative and inter-dependent. Even this 'thirst', tanha, which is considered as the cause or origin of dukkha, depends for its arising (samudaja) on something else, which is sensation (vedana),2 and sensation arises depending on contact (phassa), and so on and so forth goes on the circle which isknown as Conditioned Genesis (Paticca-samuppada), which we will discuss later. - What the Buddha taught, pg. 47

You are also wrong in your interpretation of Dependent origination and causality...Dependent Origination is not a causality free system and things do indeed "arise from pre-existing phenomena" that's quite literally what the word "Dependant" means in the term.

Incredible, so you failed to understand I was talking about and then went to wikipedia, CTRL+F "causal" and then copy and pasted that at me to then declare me totally debunked and pwnd without reading what I said.

Every time you bring up causality in relation to Dependent Genesis, it's always discussing how existence continues after that, there's no pre-existing phenomena because there isn't a first cause. All talks are about things such as merit and attachments, not that things arise based on pre-existing phenomena, because there's nothing pre-existing.

Are just demonstrably incorrect.

No it's not,

Annata doesn't state that things like consciousness don't actually exist, just that those things are not permanent and thus, ultimately going to change in form and won't lead to a permanent state unlike the conception of the soul in other religions.

I'm aware Anatta doesn't say this, however, the mind is one aspect of the self, a sense organ no different than sight or hearing.

A word about what is meant by the term 'Mind' (manas) in Buddhist philosophy may be useful here. It should clearly be understood that mind is not spirit as opposed to matter. It should always be remembered that Buddhism does not recognize a spirit opposed to matter, as is accepted by most other systems of philosophies and religions. Mind is only a faculty or organ(indriya) like the eye or the ear. It can be controlled and developed like any other faculty, and the Buddha speaks quite often of the value of controlling and disciplining these six faculties. The difference between the eye and the mind as faculties is that theformer senses the world of colours and visible forms, while the latter senses the world of ideas and thoughts and mental objects. We experience different fields of the world with different senses. We cannot hear colours, but we can see them. No r can we see sounds, but we can hear them. Thus with our five physical sense organs—eye, ear, nose, tongue, body—we experience only the world of visible forms, sounds, odours, tastes and tangible objects. But these represent only a part of the world, not the whole world. - What the Buddha Taught, pg. 39

Subhuti replied, “As far as I have understood the lord Buddha’s teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened or enlightened mind. Nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Buddha teaches. Why? Because the teachings that the Buddha has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent things and therefore cannot be described. The truth in them is uncontainable and inexpressible. It neither is, nor is it not. What does this mean? What this means is that Buddhas and disciples are not enlightened by a set method of teachings, but by an internally intuitive process which is spontaneous and is part of their own inner nature.” - The Diamond Sutra Chapter 7

“You are correct, Subhuti. In fact, there does not exist any so-called highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind that the Buddha attains. Because if there had been any such thing, Dipankara Buddha would not have predicted of me, ‘In the future, you will come to be a Buddha known as The Most Honored One’. This prediction was made because there is, in fact, nothing to be attained. Someone would be mistaken to say that the Buddha has attained the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind because there is no such thing as a highest, most fulfilled, or awakened mind to be attained.” - The Diamond Sutra, Chapter 17

“Subhuti, I know the mind of every sentient being in all the host of universes, regardless of any modes of thought, conceptions or tendencies. For all modes, conceptions and tendencies of thought are not mind. And yet they are called ‘mind’. Why? It is impossible to retain a past thought, to seize a future thought, and even to hold onto a present thought.” - The Diamond Sutra, Chapter 18

Further too, this has nothing to do with Anatta, Anatta literally means "non-self", the idea that there is no self. You've once again conflated two Buddhist concepts in an attempt to debunk me.

What you've described was Anitya, one of the three marks of existence, the others, being dukkha and anatta.

Anitya then ties back to Dukkha;

But all these are included in dukkha. Even the very pure spiritual states of dhyana (recueillement or trance) attained by the practice of higher meditation, free from even a shadow of suffering in the accepted sense of the word, states which may be described as unmixed happiness, as well as the state of dhjana which is free from sensations both pleasant (sukha) and unpleasant'(dukkha) and is only pure equanimity and awareness—even these very high spiritual states are included in dukkha. In one of the suttas of the Majjhima-nikdya, (again one of the five original Collections), after praising the spiritual happiness of these dhyanas, the Buddha says that they are 'impermanent, dukkha, and subject to change' (anicca dukkha viparinamadbamma). Notice that the word dukkha is explicitly used. It is dukkha, not because there is 'suffering' in the ordinary sense of the word, but because 'whatever is impermanent is dukkha' (yad aniccam tam dukkham). - What the Buddha Taught, pg. 36

It's almost like I said this above and you ignored me.

you've not only demonstrated that you lack the actual knowledge of the Buddhist concepts discussed here

You've just regurgitated wikipedia at me for a page and then claimed I have no idea what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, I've presented many sources for my claims, while for you, you've misunderstood both what I'm talking about and what certain concepts are and then flagrantly conflate them and expect to come out with the correct conclusion.

---

As people above me have shown with their endless patience to read JJK, the findings are not consistent and I don't find anything persuasive besides the use of the names and the author saying he's read the Heart sutra one time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Udl does make good points on second thought.

 

[Dereck03]

Uld's points clearly highlight why I disagreed with the use of Buddhism-based abilities, the same thing I disagreed with in the previous thread, I continue to disagree with this one as well even more so since this one focuses on clearly extrapolating and incorrectly using Buddhism (based on Uld's points) to give abilities.

 

[Udlmaster]

Me this entire thread

Uld's points clearly highlight why I disagreed with the use of Buddhism-based abilities, the same thing I disagreed with in the previous thread, I continue to disagree with this one as well even more so since this one focuses on clearly extrapolating and incorrectly using Buddhism (based on Uld's points) to give abilities.

Me realising that my name is always spelt incorrectly.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Got permission from @Dereck03
Wanted to write my own explanation but @SunDaGamer made a better statements in previous thread I'm gonna post this here.

From what I've read in the official translation, "target concept" isn't really a term, Kenjaku mentions that Ganesha uses concepts against cursed technique targets and then says that Yuki's virtual mass is a concept that targets a cursed technique. From the only showing of Ganesha's technique, it seems to assign the targets of its cursed technique as obstacles (1 2) that are then removed through altering concepts somehow (an interpretation I've read is that it removed the concept of gravity from the soldiers being targeted in that instance to remove them as obstacles in Kenjaku's way). TCB's translation describes it as "entangling a concept with the technique's target" which can be interpreted slightly differently, it sounds like Ganesha is assigning targets as "obstacles" with its technique which entangles them with that concept of obstruction so that they can then be "removed."

Whites own translations which he posted in last thread.
Raw
Translation

Mass...?That's the concept her technique targets...!! A mass so overwhelming it's not contained within intension or denotation!!

RAW
Translation

If the concept is being ignored, I can't use the high grade Cursed Spirits I saved in Shibuya.

To break it down, Yuki's technique directly messes with the concepts of its targets, stopping Kenjaku from using his other Special Grade Cursed spirits. It's not a statement that all CTs involve concepts. Take Gojo's Limitless, for instance. Even though Blue, Red, and Infinity are part of it, only CM type 2 concept is governed by Infinity while blue and red governs nothing. Nanami's also has Extension Technique, similar to Sukuna, yet it failed to harm Mahito's soul. Following wiki standards, concepts should be more abstract than souls. Correct me if I'm wrong. Nanami's case opposes the idea of giving every CT CM type 3. Also Uraume CT is her own thing for reaching essence of CE. it shouldn't be used as common for everyone.

---

It makes sense to evaluate each CT based on a case-by-case scenario. Anyway, I'm neutral about giving every CT CM Type 3. I will leave it up to the staff, but I just wanted to clarify that Kenjaku and Yuki's conversation was not about every CT. Sukuna and Uraume's case is also similar & their technique is their own thing and shouldn't be used as common for everyone.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It seems everyone came out to play lol. Just updating ya’ll, soaking in the sun after a long gradschool/work year. I won’t be responding until I’m back but expect a mega respone covering everyone’s points <3

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Back Today for a bit. I will probably have to respond to each individual since Sun put quotes inside of quotes^2, but I will def try and cover Sun's and Uld's points by the end of the day.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Maitreya had addressed this line of thinking in the previous thread:


The white circles in Gojo's panel talking about the "core of cursed energy" aren't even consistent with the white dots presented in other pieces of evidence.

Yeah, I think this is a pretty hypercritical nitpick that is sidestepping the main point of this canvas being a pretty blatant visual motif that Gege consistently alludes to or uses when discussing ontological topics. Given that the void is inherently formless and can form "those white dots" into the reality we see, I don't see how this would serve as a contradiction of any sort.

That isn't even a black canvas, that's just a blurred background.

The blank canvas is the black background that we consistently see. You can clearly also see the little white dots there as well. The image of the tree looking thing is obviously symbolizing the carrying on of cursed techniques genetically hence it looking like a phylogenetic tree.

That's just a representation of a bloodline with a black background.

I'd say this is a super reductive point that is also sidesteping the consistent visual motif being used across Gege discussing ontological concepts and how CE/CT fit in.

Black Flash is never even remotely implied to be reveal a representation of Sunyata (something that should be vital to the verse's ontology) even with its extensive coverage and explanations seen in the manga, volume extras and official fanbook which makes it evident that this idea of Black Flash revealing a canvas to represent Sunyata isn't one really founded in the series.

I heavily disagree. Black Flash's main calling card is that one is gaining the power from a near impossible utilization of CE that explicitly "creates a distortion in space". Said distortion being the mechanism obviously tells us that the usual boundaries of space are broken and what is revealed when that happens is the black cursed energy. The first time we are shown this Gege explicitly shows us the same starry canvas leaving from the distorted areas of space. Which is the same material we see during our first showing of a domain expansion awakening with Mahito [1] [2], which also cross references Tengen's later claim of sorcerors being able to utilize the Sunyata barriers despite never having step foot in it. Kenjaku also explicitly refers to curses as "the space between dream and reality" furthermore highlighting its relation to the fundamental information of the verse that is neither spiritual nor physical.

Furthermore, in addition to causing a distortion in space that reveals the more fundamental reality, we are explicitly told that using black flash brings one closer to the "core of cursed energy" while also granting the user enlightened usage of CE. This directly parallels what Gojo described as he was on the verge of death feeling "the core of cursed energy" while also gaining enlightenment.

I believe that is quite enough consistency of concept to be comfortable in making the conclusions I am, especially when Gege himself prescribes to this ambiguous style of writing that requires a lot of foreknowledge and context to get.

He says non-sorcerers, sorcerers and cursed spirits are possibilities of cursed energy in the form of human beings, that just sounds like CE in humans leads to non-sorcerers, sorcerers and cursed spirits arising.

"There must be something more to human potential. I tried to bring forth that potential myself..."
"But that doesn't work. What I can create does not exceed the bounds of my own potetnial. The answer is always flickering darkly in chaos. Do you understand? What I should have created was chaos that not even I could control."
I don't see how Kenjaku is talking about chaos as some abstraction that governs existence.

That's because you aren't reading it in full context. Right before you quoted he discusses how CE can take the forms of Humans, Sorcerors, and cursed spirits. We also know this extends to animals since they too have CE natively and obviously weren't created by sorcerors. If CE can actualize in the form of humans, animals, and curses, that means CE is obviously an ontological mechanism that gives form to life.

What you are quoting and arguing about his Kenjaku's attempts at playing god (literally his whole character) with his knowledge of CT. Hence why we are given a shot of Choso when he says "I tried to bring that forth myself". This clause is explicitly outlining Kenjaku's attempts at utilizing his knowledge of CE giving form to life to try and make something himself by making curse-human hybrids. Something he obviously couldn't do without foreknowledge of CE's ontological role and assuredly not if CE didn't actually give form to life, and just form overall. His whole plan is to literally ascend humanity into a higher state of being. This whole spiel is talking about ontology and the direction of existence, with very explicit Buddhist undertones given the Tengen became the progenitor of jujutsu after learning and spreading Buddhism and achieved his state by having his will reach a state of non-existence, very similar to the concept of Nirvana.

That's just Tengen knowing what's in their barrier.

Yes, as the owner of the barrier, Tengen is privy to all of the information that exists within the barrier. We also know that he's talking about more than just "knowing what's inside" given that he explicitly uses the word "analyze" and discusses trying to manipulate the vector parameters of Kenjaku's barrier in order to neutralize it. Something once again directly espoused by Kusakabe when discussing barriers in the Gojo vs Sukuna fight.

If Sukuna's regular slashes were targeting a higher level of reality then physical toughness on a regular plane below it wouldn't resist them, his spatial slash negates durability with that principle.

You aren't reading what I am saying. Sukuna's regular slashes are invisible because he is summoning them from the void directly onto his opponent in reality. Hence why there are given a grey starry canvas [1] [2]. Sukuna's world cutter is simply cutting all of existence itself, hence why it's much more lethal. Sukuna isn't infusing "void" into his slashes, his world cutter is simply targetting the void itself and localizing an effect as we saw with Gojo.

Domains have that same black canvas imagery yet characters who can realize their Innate Domains can't see Sukuna's regular slashes despite this supposed hierarchy,

A.) Jujutsu isn't some top down system that is fully understood even by sorcerors themselves. Mahito and Megumi for instance awoken their domains upon the threat of death with Megumi just having a basic idea of the principles. Also note that right before Megumi opens his innate domain, we once again get a glimpse of the starry canvas in relation to him about to expand his innate domain. Most of jujutsu is extremely intuitive, which brings me to the more important point.

B.) Characters who can materialize their innate domains (which is a person's soul btw) can't see Sukuna's slashes because they are only privy to their own internal mindscape. For instance, most barrier users also can't see the souls of other people, but I'm gonna go ahead and guess you wouldn't argue that means innate domains aren't directly tied to them correct? Furthermore, it is for this very reason that Open domain barrier users are heralded as "divine". In order for most people to realize an innate domain, they must abstractly visualize an image/symbolism [2] and then create a separate space in order to materialize said domain and the effects are localized to this new abstract space. Sukuna and Kenjaku are glazed specifically because they can write on the canvas of reality with no foundation. A feat directly utilizing the canvas symbolism in addition to such comparison as running software with hardware, growing a flower without a stem, etc. All analogies pointing to them being able to create form from nothingness.

hell Gege uses a black background in that fight with Mahoraga when Sukuna sees its sword is enveloped in positive energy.

No? The panel you're showing is literally just a black background with Mahoraga's positive energy shining around the sword. That isn't remotely comparable to the images I am using in this thread and pointing to as Sunyata.

Gege using a black panel to represent Sukuna's world cutting slash doesn't mean it represents something ontological every other time it's used.

I think this is just sidestepping my evidence. Your mahoraga example wasn't a correct comparison and directly showed every instance of it bein tied to ontology. So I'd appreciate if you went through the examples in the OP explicitly to tell me which ones aren't directly referencing some sort of Ontology.

Tengen's special barrier is in the Star Corridor and it hasn't been referred to as a Sunyata Barrier,

Yes they have been and several times at that. Read the databook description

It explictly highlights that the special barrier begins in the Shrine and extends to where Tengen was buried. We know the fight between Kenjaku and Tengen took place right next to this level, as when the sunyata barrier is destroyed by the blackhole, Kenjaku is literally steps away from the tree that enshrined Tengen which the databook directly states is "a special barrier where only those permitted by Tengen can enter" which is something directly shown to us both by Tengen permitting entry to the heroes and Kenjaku forcing his way in via barrier usage.

in fact Kenjaku calls it a "Pure Barrier" and the Sunyata Barriers that we do know about are located in the Labyrinthine Barrier above the Star Corridor. Those scans of Mahito aren't even consistent with that paragraph, are these blank canvases white or black? Lastly, the footnote about Sunyata is just a translator's note from TCBscans explaining what Sunyata means in Buddhism which Maitreya has also addressed:

I don't think this helps your point. We are told that the barriers outside of Tengen's special barrier are the ones that don't really matter and exist mostly for show. The ones youare pointing out are the ones that stablize jujutsu across Japan.

The sunyata barriers are the only barriers explicit to Tengen in his labryinth as your scans show he directly states he is the master of said barriers, something also backed up in the fight vs Kenjaku proper. With these barriers also holding the special property of allowing for large scale reality warping as shown by both Tengen and Kenjaku [1] [2] [3] , I am indeed confident in asserting the sunyata barriers indeed are the "special ones" talked about given the emphasis put on them and their inherent relationship to barrier techniques. Tengen even states he believes he'd "have the upper hand" in the Sunyata barrier once again outlining his special relation to the Sunyata.

In response to your color question, it's a void where Tengen decides the form (remember, Sunyata is espoused by the notion that form is emptiness and emptiness form). We clearly see the deeper reality of his white landscape actually is a dark void from which he pulls out the prison realm he was hiding.

So basically, we have an enlightened Buddha who taught buddhism/Jujutsu hand in hand together who was able to achieve Nirvana by being enlightened enough about jujutsu/barriers and almost dissolved their will into nothingness, then become a religious symmbol who achieved ego immortality by utilizing hosts for physical information and utilizing barriers o seperate their consciousness from oblivion. This person has a "special barrier" which is tied to the "essence of jujutsu" and outright allows for jujutsu to be a thing in the first place. This being espouses that they own the Sunyata barriers and that any sorcerer familiar with barriers can configure the sunyata structure, with it also being directly correlated to skills. Retroactively, this explains the ambiguous black canvas motif we have seen time and time again.

To me that sounds pretty reasonable and connected even if not spoonfed to the audience, a majority of which outside of Japan, who would also not be privy to a lot of the Japanese/ Buddhist influences.

I also find the Void > Type 2 Info proposal quite nonsensical considering 95% of the characters who can interact with the proposed void can't even perceive the soul.
Looks like it's been changed to Type 2 Info > Void which has similar issues like Sukuna perceiving souls but considering it to be a nigh-impossible task to target the void of existence as proposed

It is Void > Info 2.

I already outlined why the perception thing isn't an issue above. your logic would also extend to the soul arguments for any barrier user who can't see souls, despite them blatantly materializing their own when utilizing domain expansion.

Sukuna didn't say he struggled with perceiving the void and we obviously know this isn't the case given he can already do this with his domain expansion. Sukuna was referencing switching the target concept of his CT from a single person to encapsulating all of existence. This was clarified by Kusakabe who states Sukuna can' just use the world slash willy nilly because it would either require a binding vow or recharge time given its scope.

Angel literally has a technique named "Jacob's Ladder" (referencing the story in the Bible), has a panel referencing the Creation of Adam and refers to Sukuna as "The Fallen" which is a title associated with Satan. Angel is blatantly Abrahamic, not Buddhist.

Angel's design and technique are meta infuences, heavily likely to be Eva references due to Gege's love for the series. It has nothing to do with her creed in the Hiean era.
A.) Angel was apart of the Abe Clan's Desshichin squad. The Abe clan were a group of famous Onmyodo (ancient Japanese wizards) most notable for the member of Abe Seimei. Furthermore, Desshichin literally refers to "Nirvana Pacification Squad" which is a clear reference to Buddhism.

B.) Angel is not "blatantly abrahamic" as she literally fought on a buddhist squad in the middle of ancient Japan, the only place known for cursed energy at the time besides mayyyybe India. So I don't see why a Kabbalist would have just happened to be in Hiean Japan and also forsake their own religion to learn witchraft from someone selling buddhism (as the Heian era only came about after Tengen taight both). The fact that you would bring up Sukuna is even more evidence for me, given Sukuna is blatantly buddhist/Japanese inspired given his weapons, asura form, knowledge of buddhism/japanese culture ala: how he deduced Mahoraga's technique, knew about the Esoteric buddhist practice of Shibutsu, hangs around with a buddhist monk he chose as his sidekick, and uses buddhist mudra and Japanese chants for all of his attacks.

You're confusing meta-influence and reference with inverse happenings.

To break it down, Yuki's technique directly messes with the concepts of its targets, stopping Kenjaku from using his other Special Grade Cursed spirits. It's not a statement that all CTs involve concepts.

Yes it is. Kenjaku is analyzing Yuki from an objective standpoint. He actively breaks down what he knows about cursed techniques in order to figure hers out. He specifically states from the Raw

Mass...?That's the concept her technique targets...!! A mass so overwhelming it's not contained within intension or denotation!!

Kenjaku's language directly highlights that techniques work by targeting a concept and that Yuki is doing so with the concept of mass. This statement is indicative of the universal concept targetting nature of CT as Kenjaku did not frame this in such a way that concept targeting was unique to Yuki, on the contrary affirming that Yuki's technique does follow this rule and targets mass which can be amped to an indescribable level.

This is directly followed up with his quote of

Since she can ignore concepts, then none of the high-grade cursed spirits I have left after Shibuya are useable

This is bolstering evidence for the conceptual nature of CT as Yuki's concept not being able to be targeted flat out makes his high grade cursed spirit techniques unusable. Meaning concept targetting is something that is standard across CT, or he'd just a CS that didn't use such a mechanic.

This being on top of:

• CE being generated by sentient beings experiences.
• CE giving form to life.
• Cursed spirits being amalgamations of human memory/emotion [2] and even shared conceptualization [2] by humans.
• and the fact the fundamental reality in JJK isn't physical or spiritual, but information, inherently making reality warping in the verse abstract.

Take Gojo's Limitless, for instance. Even though Blue, Red, and Infinity are part of it, only CM type 2 concept is governed by Infinity while blue and red governs nothing.

This is false, for instance, utilizing the conceptual infinity to access the number line, Gojo's blue quite literally functions by materializing the concepts of negative numbers (which don't exist naturally obviously) to have an effect on reality.

Nanami's also has Extension Technique, similar to Sukuna, yet it failed to harm Mahito's soul.

Nanami's "extension technique" isn't something similar to him. An "extension techinque" is similar to a maximum technique in that both are ways a sorceror can chang the potency or function of their technique. Nanami's technique was not "extending the target" of his CT into the void like Sukuna. Nanami's technique extension was applying the concept of 7/3 to the wall he destroyed and thrusting it down on Mahito to crumble him and stall his regen.

So you're confounding the universal ability of "extension techniques" with the appication of switching the target concept of a technique. Nanami's would have to have been able to perceive Mahito's soul and directly target it with 7/3 which he obviously could not do.

Following wiki standards, concepts should be more abstract than souls. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are incorrect, in fact as I mentioned by citing this thread, CM type 3 is not given precedence over other abilities after the revision, hence why this clause exists on the page proper.

Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon.

Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

Cm type 3 covers things of an abstract nature that aren't qualified for type 2 or 1.

Nanami's case opposes the idea of giving every CT CM type 3.

It doesn't as I have explained how you are conflating an extension technique with extension of a technique's target which is what Sukuna did and Kenjaku reaffirmed when fighting Hazenoki. Not all extensions of techniques cursed targets go after Sunyata either, it's not a one size fits all thing. Sukuna/Makora are just them.

Also Uraume CT is her own thing for reaching essence of CE. it shouldn't be used as common for everyone.

Citations?


I will be addressing Udl's points in a separate post to this one in a few hours give or take. Thanks again everyone for their patience.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Supposing that it is, the Soul plays no part in that, the Soul isn't even a false duality in Buddhism like how the 5 sense aggregates are a result of Delusion, the Soul just doesn't exist, there is no soul for there to be even a false duality about.

Yes there is. You seem to misunderstand Buddhism's position on the soul (excluding distinct schools that have their own thoughts on the nature of the duality). Buddhism does grant that there is a phenomenological soul/consciousness, that is, an experience of consciousness that propagates thinking, perceiving, etc. This is a fundamental aspect of any buddhist school, as the four nobles truths are inherently phenomenological in of themselves. Suffering requires a sufferer, attachment and desire require a subject, and of course the whole point of Buddhism is the get humans to follow the 8 fold path so that their views, conduct, livelihood (essentially thoughts, behaviors, and feelings) were in line with the mission of enlightenment and reduction of this experience among living things. from "Buddha" himself:

“Mendicants, suppose there were two houses with doors. A person with clear eyes standing in between them would see people entering and leaving a house and wandering to and fro.

In the same way, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. I understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: ‘These dear beings did good things by way of body, speech, and mind.

Buddhist (in general) do not deny the mind/soul anymore than they deny the body as not being real. Both obviously exists, they are just not eternal. That is the major distinction within Buddhism compared to other religions such as Hinduism and the Abrahamic religions. In those religions that soul is eternal and substantial. In Buddhism, it is impermanent and ultimately ephemeral as it exists as "phenomena," which are inherently empty due to dependant origination.

“Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There’s the convention ‘a being.'”

Vajjira Sutta (SN 5.10)

“For these, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. But a Tathāgata [one who has fully realized the truth] makes use of them, but does not misapprehend them.”
Potthapāda Sutta (DN 9)

We even see these notions within the Dhamapadda

We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Speak or act with an impure mind and trouble will follow you as the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.

On top of that, mind-body dualism is not something that is agreed upon universally throughout the major schools. Which you can read more about in the following spoiler from this source here

Spoiler

Disagreement among modern interpreters of the not-self doctrine attests to the difficulty of providing a definitive account of this core aspect of Buddhist philosophy. Thus, the early Pāli scholar Caroline Rhys Davids (1924, 75) thought that the way Buddhists understood and used the term consciousness was not very different that the way Upaniṣadic philosophers talked about the self. Similarly, Isaline Horner (1936, 145) suggested that some canonical passages (e.g., Anguttara Nikāya I, 149–50) actually provide support for the notion of self as an ‘unchanging witness’ (Pāli sakkhi, Skt. sākṣin), a view also defended in a recent philosophical reworking of the notion of ‘witness consciousness’ by Miri Albahari (2006). Although he acknowledged the confusion generated by the tendency to attribute to early Buddhism something analogous to the Upaniṣadic doctrine of self, Edward Conze nonetheless asserted that one's true identity is that of an Absolute, which he presumed to be none other than the Buddhist view of consciousness (1962, pp. 43, 127). Perhaps the most detailed attempt to support a two-tier understanding of the doctrine of not-self comes from Kamaleswar Bhattacharya (1973, 64 and passim), who forcibly argued that the denial of self in Buddhism most often targets common views such as those that associate the self with the psycho-physical aggregates, and not the metaphysical notion of self.

The prevailing view, however, is that such interpretations are tenuous. Indeed, later Buddhist traditions develop specific notions, such as that of mind-stream, life-continuum mind, and repository consciousness (citta-santāna, bhavaṅga-citta, and ālaya-vijñāna, respectively) precisely in order to avoid the metaphysical implications of the traditional notion of self. Extensive critiques of the attempt to find support in the canonical literature for the existence of a higher self, perhaps equated with consciousness, are found in Warder (1970), Collins (1982), Kalupahana (1987), Harvey (1995), and De Silva (2005). Vasubandhu’s Treatise on the Negation of the Person (Pudgala-pratiṣedha-prakaraṇa, which forms the 9th chapter of his Abhidharmakośa) provides one of most detailed Buddhist critiques of the personalist view (also targeting Brahmanical conceptions of self) (see §5.5).

Thus Harvey (1995, 22) argues that the notion of a ‘self which witnesses’ most probably refers to deeper aspects of consciousness (citta) acting as ‘conscience.’ In a similar vein, Collins (1982, 87–115) delineates several points supporting the not-self view as the correct account: (1) the metaphysical notion of self as eternal and unchanging is actually just plain erroneous (a defect of speculative opinion); (2) taking the body to be the self is a mistaken view; (3) consciousness itself is not the self; (4) it is impossible to speak of a self apart from experience; (5) a false sense of self may be acquired from the habitual use of pronominal forms such as ‘I’ and ‘mine.’ Furthermore, in his detailed and thorough analysis of Buddhist and Brahmanical views on personal identity, Oetke (1988) interprets the not-self doctrine as reflective of a “revisionary” metaphysics which denies not a self as such but rather the self as something qualified by the property of being the subject of experience or as the referent of such subjective experience.

All that to say that yes, being and mind/soul do exist, just not in any real substantive form. Which is quite literally what this thread is arguing.

No, I'm not, and your own evidence isn't THE Dharma, you showed the Dharmachakra, which isn't the Dharma.

Dharmachakra, or Dammahcakra is not the Dharma, it is the the symbolic representation of the Dharma, the Buddha's teaching, as the Wheel of Dharma, DHARMA CHAKRA.

You originally posted this from the section in which I discuss the Dharma and it's relation to the Dharmachakra shown used by Mahoraga

Dharma - roughly known as "cosmic law and order" the Dharma is a concept encompassing many things, but most notably it is meant to symbolize conditioned existence and the causality that drives it.

No. This is fractally wrong in so many ways. Dharma doesn't symbolize conditioned existence, Dharma specifically is the teachings of the Buddha;

I responded by proving you wrong with the following quote

In Buddhism, the Dharma Chakra is widely used to represent the Buddha's Dharma (Buddha's teaching and the universal moral order), Gautama Buddha himself and the walking of the path to enlightenment, since the time of Early Buddhism.[10][1][note 1] The symbol is also sometimes connected to the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path and Dependent Origination. The pre-Buddhist dharmachakra (Pali: dhammacakka) is considered one of the ashtamangala (auspicious signs) in Hinduism and Buddhism and often used as a symbol of both faiths.[11][note 2] It is one of the oldest known Indian symbols found in Indian art, appearing with the first surviving post-Indus Valley Civilisation Indian iconography in the time of the Buddhist king Ashoka.[10][note 1]

The Buddha is said to have set the "wheel of dharma" in motion when he delivered his first sermon,[12] which is described in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. This "turning of the wheel" signifies a great and revolutionary change with universal consequences, brought about by an exceptional human being.
In Buddhism, dharma refers to "cosmic law and order",[12][15] as expressed by the teachings of the Buddha.[12][15] In Buddhist philosophy, dhamma/dharma is also the term for "phenomena".[16][note 2] Dharma in Jainism refers to the teachings of Tirthankara (Jina)[12] and the body of doctrine pertaining to the purification and moral transformation of humans. In Sikhism, dharma indicates the path of righteousness, proper religious practices, and performing one's own moral duties
In Buddhism the actions of sentient being drive the chain of existence, this is also why Karma exist and karma acts as the causal mover of the universal order. That's the whole reason for Buddha teaching about the eightfold path.

So from this counter-response the following points can be summarized:

• the Dharmachakra is a direct symbol of the Dharma, linking them inherently.
• In the Buddhist context, Dharma is a direct term for "Phenoemona"
• Dharma does indeed refer to "cosmic law and order" that directly come from the truth body of the Dharma.
• The Dharma chakra symbolizes the constant flux of change and causality that drives sentient beings through samsara while also being symbolic of the eightfold path that can lead one out of Samsara.

So no, I did not conflate the two things, I brought up both because both were discussed in the section of my ontology blog that you quoted, and furthermore because they both have to do with the subject you and I are discussing since you claimed

No. This is fractally wrong in so many ways. Dharma doesn't symbolize conditioned existence, Dharma specifically is the teachings of the Buddha;

Likewise, the Dharma has nothing to do with the causality "that drives it". The only things which relate to this are the Four Noble Truths;

Which is an inherently nonsensical position to take since the whole point of the Dharma is that it is the truth body and actual ultimate reality compared to the world of phenomena, and by buddha turning the wheel with his teachings, he was bringing about consequences related to all of conditioned existence.

For those not in the know, the Dharmachakra is the famous "Wheel of Buddhism" that you'll see representing Buddhism in many religious centres.

This is the equivalent of saying that the Bible and the Cross are the same thing.

This is a pretty egregious equivocation fallacy given that the Dharmachakra and Dharma are much more inherently linked than the symbol of the cross and the teachings of the bible as pointed out above.

How do you read that and go "Yeah, the Dharmachakra and the Dharma are totally the same." Your own source literally says this, did you bother to read it?

I never said the two were the same, you're strawmaning my position.

In fact, I know how, you did a bit of deceptive splicing there, using parts of Wikipedia's article on the Dharmachakra and then switch to the Dharma page without disclosing that fact to make it seem like one continuous narrative.

This is a pretty serious, unfounded claim about my faith in this debate. You were the one who decided to splice sections from my ontology blog while trying to relate them to this specific thread. I posted both because both illustrate my points about the Dharma. I pretty blatantly also boxed them in separate quotes where each talk about the separate concepts distinctly, so not sure how you accusing me of misconduct there. Also, did you even read the passage of the turning of the wheel?

Siddhartha Gautama, the historical Buddha, lays out what is considered to be the foundation of Buddhist doctrine and practice: the middle path approach to understanding the nature of phenomena. At the level of affect the middle path steers clear of the extremes of indulgence and austerity, while at the mental level it avoids the extreme metaphysical positions of eternalism and annihilationism. Thus, the middle path “leads to insight and wisdom, produces calm, knowledge, enlightenment, and nirvāṇa” (Saṃyutta Nikāya, V, 420). Following his exposition of the middle path, the Buddha proceeds to outline the four noble truths and the eightfold noble path, which together represent the most basic aspects of Buddhist teachings. The middle path, thus, is intended both as an ethical method and as a primer for correct reasoning. In this second sense, the middle path relies on a particular understanding the nature of reality as being marked by, or displaying, three specific characteristics (tri-lakṣaṇa): unsatisfactoriness (duḥkha), impermanence (anitya), and the lack of an abiding self (anātman).

It's literally Buddha laying down the Dharma, explaining his position on the nature of existence, and then intertwining his take on existence with the practices and teachings one should follow to escape and attain Nirvana via enlightenment.

This is from the Dharma Chakra page.

This is from the Dharma page, but without specifying where you got your sources from, it seem like they're all from the same place.

I literally linked the Dharma page in the ontology thread that you responded to in this thread. You can literally also follow the hyperlinks left in the sections you quoted to find the sources I used.

You literally just conflated the Dharma and Dharmachakra as the same thing not minutes before this.

I literally did not and just explained that above.

"It's something which should not happen. It goes against the laws of God."

"Nuuu, she doesn't actually mean what she's saying, she means this other thing that doesn't contradict my views."

This isn't really an argument? Angel directly states that the term "God" is just a namesake for her creed. That isn't at all compatible with the Judeo-Christian beliefs that espouse a singular and all-powerful god.

She was also on a squad called the "Nirvana pacification unit" which has nothing to do with Judeo-Christian beliefs and is tied directly to Buddhism.

Thank you for that. Since my interests in this thread lies entirely on the Buddhist aspects of it, I wouldn't have been able to notice this bit of slippery deception.

Once again, these accusations are extremely uncalled for.

I don't find this remotely persuasive. If they wanted to mean the Dharma, they would have said that, after all, you've told us that the writer read sutras.

And, the concept they're espousing doesn't violate any laws in Buddhism. So she's obviously not talking from a Buddhist perspective.

Uhm, yeah it would. Taking the consciousness away of another individual to re-roll your line in rebirth would not be something the Buddha would be cool with. Rebirth in Buddhism isn't supposed to transfer the ego, and especially not at the cost of causing direct ego death of another individual.

This is just waffling and pre-empting.

This is just a claim.

If you do not believe they are compatible, then why bring it up in terms of Powers and Abilities if it has no relevance? Honestly, it more so seems you're throwing in Buddhist ideas to try and give weight to unsubstantiated things.

I never claimed they were incompatible. You keep putting words in my mouth, I literally just made several threads contending that they are. That's a completely separate contention to "JJK and Buddhism are 1 to 1". I only bring up the aspects shown in the thread proper and relevant to battle statistics.

My question is: Why aren't you responding to that stuff? Outside of the Angel stuff (which you also pulled from the ontology thread) you have mostly stuck attacking my already passed ontology thread while side-stepping this whole thread which is literally trying to accomplish what you are accusing me of not doing. So I am a bit confused.

No, they aren't. I showed above how they aren't, they all exist as a part of the Buddha's teachings (Dharma) but they aren't the same as you make out. Especially shown as you go on to make a huge error right after this.

Why would them existing as a part of Buddha's teachings make them not intertwined? That doesn't make any sense. You didn't respond to any of the stuff I posted to you.

Spoiler

Dependent origination can be contrasted with the classic Western concept of causation in which an action by one thing is said to cause a change in another thing. Dependent origination instead views the change as being caused by many factors, not just one or even a few.[15]

The principle of dependent origination has a variety of philosophical implications.

• As an ontological principle (i.e., as a metaphysical concept about the nature of existence), it holds that all phenomena arise from other, pre-existing phenomena, and in turn current phenomena condition future phenomena. As such, everything in the world has been produced by causes.[16][17][18] Traditionally, this is also closely connected to the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth, and how rebirth occurs without a fixed self or soul, but as a process conditioned by various phenomena and their relations.[17]
• As an epistemological principle (i.e., as a theory about knowledge),[19] it holds that there are no permanent and stable things, though there are classes of permanent phenomena vis. space (vacuum), cessations (including nirvana), and suchness (the absence of self, namely, anatta).[20][21] Because everything is dependently originated, nothing is permanent (hence the Buddhist concept of impermanence, anicca) and nothing has any self-nature or essence (anatta).[22][21][23] Consequently, all phenomena lack essence.[19] In various traditions, this is closely associated with the doctrine of emptiness (śūnyatā).[24]
• As a phenomenological or psychological principle, it refers to the workings of the mind and how suffering, craving, and self-view arise.[5] This can refer to how different mental states condition each other over time, or to how different mental phenomena condition each other in a single moment.

This directly counters the claims you made that

Firstly, Dependent Origination and Sunyata should not be grouped together as if they're the same concept, because they couldn't be more vastly different.

Secondly, Dependent Origination is a Buddhist core idea that nothing arises separately, that something is more fundamental than anything else. There exists no "pre-existing phenomena" and there are no causal links between any of them, they all arise simultaneously.

Your first quote was another strawman of my position as I have never conflated Sunyata and DO being the same concept, to quote myself

First off, Dependent origination and Sunyata are indeed intertwined and directly correlated. Things need a dependent origination specifically because Sunyata is the inherent state of existence...

This isn't some new concept or something I am pulling out no where. You can read through the above sources I posted or we could look at the first paragraph of a scholarly article that addresses this topic

Sunyata is the Sanskrit term, which has been translated into English as “emptiness or voidness.” Along with pratityasamupadha (dependent-arising, dependent-origination), sunyata constitutes the foundational cornerstone of Buddhist phenomenology. By emptiness or voidness, Buddhists mean that all phenomena are empty of, lack, or are void of any “own,” inherent, permanent or separate existence. All phenomena arise dependently contingent on causes and conditions.

Or we can look at the Buddha's own words

"Udayi, whosoever can recall the khandhas he has previously occupied in great number, of such a person would it be fitting to question me about past lives, or I could so question him; that person could satisfy me with an answer thereof, or I him. Whosoever sees the passing away of beings and their subsequent arisings, of such a person would it be fitting to ask me about future lives, or I could so question him; that person could satisfy me with an answer thereof, and I him.

"Enough, Udayi, of former times and future times. I will teach you the essence of the Dhamma: When there is this, there is that. With the arising of this, that arises. When there is not this, that cannot be; when this ceases, so does that." [M.II.31]

The literal essence of the Dharma is the understanding of the relationship of dependent origination and the consequence of things lacking intrinsic existence which is encapsulated by Sunyata. Understanding this nature of reality is what leads one to Nirvana and escaping such a cycle. Though let's look at a few more:

Three characteristics (From the Samyutta Nikaya)

"All formations are transient; all formations are subject to suffering; all things are without a self. Therefore, whatever there be of form, of feeling, perception, mental formations, or consciousness, whether past, present, or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle lofty or low, far or near, one should understand according to reality and true wisdom: "This does not belong to me; this I am not; this is not my Self."

Sunyata is a thing because of the fact that phenomena depend on other phenomena for their "being" and this are "dependant" on them.

No, it doesn't, there is no first cause;

Who said anything about a first cause? I stated that

You are also wrong in your interpretation of Dependent origination and causality...Dependent Origination is not a causality free system and things do indeed "arise from pre-existing phenomena" that's quite literally what the word "Dependant" means in the term.

That's not the same as invoking the First cause argument for existence as that is incompatible with Buddhist cosmology and phenomenology.

To start, I think you are completely forgetting that the world of Samsara is the conditioned and phenomenological world. Samsara itself is inherently cyclical in nature and so the idea of a first cause doesn't even make sense within the scope of Samsara and the system of rebirths. This is symbolized quite well by the Japanese Shingon sect of Buddhism who discuss the idea of the Diamond Realm and the Womb Realm. The diamond realm is the realm of Void ruled by Vairocana whose thoughts act as the archetypes of existence, while the womb realm is the realm of other sentient beings in a phenomenological and causal reality.

So yes, cause and effect blatantly occur in the real world and dependant origination is blatantly a causal system as I showed you earlier. You essentially strawmanned my position once again into saying the ultimate buddhist reality relies on the first cause without actually understanding my argument.
Once again we can look at Oxford Libraries and read

This entry covers four models of causality: karma, pratītyasamutpāda, hetu, and pratyaya. The English terms causality and causation are used here as generic terms. As Buddhist interpretations of causality are complex and controversial, only general features of causation theories are delineated. Buddhist expositions of causality stem from and corroborate Buddhist doctrines and soteriology. In terms of doctrine, Buddhism rejects the existence of a permanent self (ātman), and denies the existence of a first cause in any form. The nature of existence is interpreted in terms of the two truths: conventional and ultimate. Conventionally, there exist beings and things, but only as conceptual entities (prajñaptisat). Ultimately, they do not exist, because they have no permanent core. So how does the inexistent world function? Conceptual entities are dissected into impersonal phenomena or dharmas as ultimate units. The dharmas are momentary, and they arise and vanish in space and time in conformity with definite principles that regulate their flow and interdependence: karma and dependent origination. The term karma, literally “action” or “deed,” as a technical concept, denotes the principle of ethical causation: there are no agents, but there are actions and their consequences. Karma as action denotes an act of mental volition (cetanā), and the bodily and verbal actions that stem from it. Volitional actions are ethically qualified, depending on whether they stem from the three wholesome roots or the three unwholesome roots. Such actions accumulate and yield their fruits: particular body-mind configurations evolving in cyclic rebirths (saṃsāra). The principle of pratītyasamutpāda (dependent origination), denotes the conditionality or interdependence of existential phenomena. Essentially, it accounts for the conditioned flux of phenomenal existence, in particular the interdependent flow of the five aggregates with no ontological substratum. The terms hetu (cause) and pratyaya (condition), occur as a compound or separately. As a compound, hetupratyaya denotes the principle of causes and conditions applicable to all aspects of existence. When included in lists of conditions, it denotes the first condition, the condition qua cause. Individually, they are virtually synonymous, or form either separate or correlated models of causality. In terms of soteriology, causality is integrated into the four noble truths. The second truth teaches the origin of suffering, identified by the Buddha as craving. Otherwise, the origin is interpreted in terms of karma and dependent origination. The third noble truth, the cessation of suffering, teaches the eradication of karma leading to rebirths, and the cessation of suffering: appeasement of dependent origination.

Incredible, so you failed to understand I was talking about and then went to wikipedia, CTRL+F "causal" and then copy and pasted that at me to then declare me totally debunked and pwnd without reading what I said.

I will point out this post as quite ironic given the above.

No where does it ever state that DO does not involve causality. That was your argument. You strawmanned my position to attack the specific theory of first cause and also simeualtaneoly misunderstood what Dependant origination actually entails.

Can you find me a source where it states DO is a causality-free system?

Every time you bring up causality in relation to Dependent Genesis, it's always discussing how existence continues after that, there's no pre-existing phenomena because there isn't a first cause. All talks are about things such as merit and attachments, not that things arise based on pre-existing phenomena, because there's nothing pre-existing.

Dependant Origination has nothing to do with the Genesis of the world or the first cause argument, I don't know where you got that from or why you keep bringing it up. Dependant originaton describes the fact that all phenomena as "beings" are really just aggregates of other things and causes and thus no phenomena has an imperishable and non-dependant existence. That is still a causal system. Karma is a causal system and the literally driving force behind how samsara works.

Pre-existing phenomena in the existing world would be something like a mother predating their child. Their child's existence is owed to the mother (and a magnitude of other factors), whose existence is owed to her mother, and so on and so forth. Thus the child's existence is dependant and not permanent or imperishable.

I'm aware Anatta doesn't say this, however, the mind is one aspect of the self, a sense organ no different than sight or hearing.



Further too, this has nothing to do with Anatta, Anatta literally means "non-self", the idea that there is no self. You've once again conflated two Buddhist concepts in an attempt to debunk me.

What are you talking about? I didn't conflate any concepts lol, I was correcting your claim that the mind doesn't exist by discussing how it does so on a phenomenological level. the concept of Annata is directly related as it states there is no permanent self.

All you did here is clarify what I blatantly already know. I'm not sure how you've read this as me conflating two concepts or what your post really contributed here.

What you've described was Anitya, one of the three marks of existence, the others, being dukkha and anatta.

Anitya then ties back to Dukkha;



It's almost like I said this above and you ignored me.

Because none of what you are posting is proving anything? Like you're whole debate topic here has been call me slimy, strawman my position into look like I am making nonsensical points and then posting stuff that isn't even relevant, as I am already aware of the teachings your posting, or they don't hold any relevance to my arguments.

You've just regurgitated wikipedia at me for a page and then claimed I have no idea what I'm talking about.

You literally said dependent origination and sunyata don't intertwine as concepts. That's literally foundational to Buddhism.

I'm not sure why you think appealing to me citing from sources is something bad. This site frequently uses Wikipedia for official matters and all of the sources I cited cme with hyperlinks which you can follow. I also didn't solely use Wikipedia, I used for the dharma stuff because that is what I initially cited in the thread you pulled from.

Meanwhile, I've presented many sources for my claims, while for you, you've misunderstood both what I'm talking about and what certain concepts are and then flagrantly conflate them and expect to come out with the correct conclusion.

Not really, I outlined that you pretty much just strawmanned me the whole time while trying to appeal to my character being in bad faith to poison the well. You haven't even addressed my counter points with anything other than "you got that source from Wikipedia." which isn't a counter argument.

---

As people above me have shown with their endless patience to read JJK, the findings are not consistent and I don't find anything persuasive besides the use of the names and the author saying he's read the Heart sutra one time.

I mean if this is your take away than you can't possibly reading JJK given the ontology thread is literally passed, there is a cornucopia of direct tie ins, and the mahito stuff is one single page of evidence among all of that.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Bump, can we get staff to start commenting with questions, comments, concerns, etc?

 

[Deagonx]

The system of jujutsu and the golden age of cursed users directly proceeded Tengen's spreading of Buddhism and Jujutsu side by side in the period preceding the Golden age of sorcery; the Hieian period. This is important as it establishes Tengen as an authority on jujutsu and as the one who spread knowledge of it throughout Japan, thus creating a formalized system that led to the establishment of Jujutsu society, so much so, that the first cohort to hear her teaching were considered the standard of jujutsu innovation. It also clearly ties into the system of jujutsu to Buddhism as the two were taught complimentary to one another by Tengen. Thus, the ontological truths of Buddhism clearly play a crucial role in Jujutsu overall

I need to point out that the anime translated this segment in a vastly different way, such that it directly states the opposite. This should be worked out.

Your scan reads: The time vessel association started in the Nara period as Master Tengen spread Japanese Buddhism and preached the foundations of Jujutsu sorcerers.

The anime says: Our star religious group was founded in the Nara era when Tengen Sama began preaching about the moral foundation of Jujutsu sorcerers, a minority, as Buddhism spread throughout Japan.

It continues: Jujutsu society and religious corporations are at complete odds with each other. That strain is what gave birth to our modern Star Religious Group.

So it suggests that Jujutsu was a minority belief set that is at complete odds with religion, suggesting the opposite of what you said. They can't both be right, so we should have it confirmed by a translator.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I need to point out that the anime translated this segment in a vastly different way, such that it directly states the opposite. This should be worked out.

Your scan reads: The time vessel association started in the Nara period as Master Tengen spread Japanese Buddhism and preached the foundations of Jujutsu sorcerers.

The anime says: Our star religious group was founded in the Nara era when Tengen Sama began preaching about the moral foundation of Jujutsu sorcerers, a minority, as Buddhism spread throughout Japan.

It continues: Jujutsu society and religious corporations are at complete odds with each other. That strain is what gave birth to our modern Star Religious Group.

So it suggests that Jujutsu was a minority belief set that is at complete odds with religion, suggesting the opposite of what you said. They can't both be right, so we should have it confirmed by a translator.

I can see if I can ask a translator for the manga raws, but it isn't of consequence to the point I'm making in the background section. Tengen spreading Japanese Buddhism and the foundations for religion is a separate aspect of the specific cult that formed to worship Tengen, and the eventual development of jujutsu society to protect humans from curses, which are indeed at odds with the more religious based cults like that of the Time Vessel association.

The original users of the secrets espoused by Tengen were typically those of esoteric groups such as the historic Abe clan composed of Onmyodo, The Nirvana pacification squad that included angel, and various powerful clans of historic Japan. A direct correlation between Tengen and the esoteric arts is made by Sukuna when he laughs at his body being preserved via the Sokushinbutsu ritual of Esoteric Buddhism. We also have this scan which directly states the famous esoteric Tendai monk Genshin is the one responsible for creating the Prison Realm artifact [1] [2].

For context, The Shingon school of Kukai, and the Tendai school of Saicho, were the two prominent sects of Buddhism that arose with the rise of the Hiean period in Japan historically. So Gege is clearly using the turning point of Tengen preaching his secrets of Buddhism and Sorcery in the Nara period, to set up the turning point which spring society into the Hiean period where buddhism was further developed in addition to Sorcery. I'm not sure how one would argue this detaches jujutsu from Buddhism tbh.

The Heian period saw the rise of two esoteric Buddhist sects, Tendai and Shingon.

Tendai is the Japanese version of the Tiantai school from China, which is based on the Lotus Sutra, one of the most important sutras in Mahayana Buddhism. It was brought to Japan by the monk Saichō. An important element of Tendai doctrine was the suggestion that enlightenment was accessible to "every creature".[11] Saichō also sought independent ordination for Tendai monks.[12] A close relationship developed between the Tendai monastery complex on Mount Hiei and the imperial court in its new capital at the foot of the mountain. As a result, Tendai emphasized great reverence for the emperor and the nation. Emperor Kammu himself was a notable patron of the otherworldly Tendai sect, which rose to great power over the ensuing centuries.

Shingon is the Japanese version of the Zhenyen school from China, which is based on Vajrayana Buddhism. It was brought to Japan by the monk Kūkai. Shingon Buddhism emphasizes the use of symbols, rituals, incantations and mandalas, which gave it a wide appeal.[13] Kūkai greatly impressed the emperors who succeeded Emperor Kammu, and also generations of Japanese, not only with his holiness but also with his poetry, calligraphy, painting, and sculpture. Both Kūkai and Saichō aimed to connect state and religion and establish support from the aristocracy, leading to the notion of "aristocratic Buddhism".[14][15]

Different people taking Tengen's teachings in different directions doesn't change the fact that the secrets of Jujutsu are inherently tied to the ontological concepts espoused in the religion.

 

[Deagonx]

Tengen spreading Japanese Buddhism

What I'm saying is, the translation in the anime suggests Tengen didnt spread Buddhism, but that he spread Jujutsu, a minority belief, at the same time that Buddhism was spread by others. Shigeru can be heard verbally saying "minority" so it seems clear IMO that the intended meaning was that Tengen was preaching a minority belief alongside yet opposed to the more popular Buddhism that spread at the same time.

historic Abe clan composed of Onmyodo, The Nirvana pacification squad that included angel, and various powerful clans of historic Japan.

This scan doesn't use the word "Nirvana."

preserved via the Sokushinbutsu ritual of Esoteric Buddhism

This scan doesn't say any of that.

Tengen preaching his secrets of Buddhism and Sorcery in the Nara period

This is just the same scan that I'm saying was translated very differently in the anime.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

What I'm saying is, the translation in the anime suggests Tengen didnt spread Buddhism, but that he spread Jujutsu, a minority belief, at the same time that Buddhism was spread by others. Shigeru can be heard verbally saying "minority" so it seems clear IMO that the intended meaning was that Tengen was preaching a minority belief alongside yet opposed to the more popular Buddhism that spread at the same time.

Oh I see what you mean, clarification on that would be nice but I also think the historical context of the cultivation of Buddhism correlating with Tengen's preachings suffices enough, but I will ask a translator.

This scan doesn't use the word "Nirvana."

Desshichin Kanji translates to Nirvana Pacification Squad

This scan doesn't say any of that.

Doesn't say any of what? The body pictured is Sukuna's original body that was preserved for him utilizing the Sokushibutsu method, which is an actual esoteric practice which Uraume confirms.

 

[Duedate8898]

This scan doesn't say any of that.

It this scan that states that

After some rereads and a lot of thought, I think I'm okay with void and conceptual manipulation. Mostly because of Gege's statement, the existence of tengen as a budhhist, Kenjaku's statemetns, the monk Mahito met, and the constant usage of budhhist terminology and symbology all throughout makes me believe that its a very real thing in JJK and that the allloted abilities are accurate in that instance.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Utillizing Machine Translation I got the following Kanji from this Raw

ばんせいきょう 盤星教は 奈良時代 てんげんさま にほんぶっきょう 天元様が日本仏教の ひろ 広がりと共に マイノリティ たい 術師に対する どうとくばん 道徳基盤を 説いたのが 初まりだ

Which translates roughly to

Banseikyo originated in the Nara period, when Tengen-sama, the founder of Nihon-bukkyō, preached the moral foundations for minority practitioners as Japanese Buddhism spread across the country.

Nihon-bukkyo is Buddhism in Japan, so this is directly correlating Tengen as the founder of Buddhism in Japan which correlates with the turning of the ages I mentioned.

 

[Deagonx]

Doesn't say any of what? The body pictured is Sukuna's original body that was preserved for him utilizing the Sokushibutsu method, which is an actual esoteric practice which Uraume confirms.

The scan you linked didn't say that, but the one Duedate did says shinbutsu mummy.

Utillizing Machine Translation I got the following Kanji from this Raw


Which translates roughly to


Nihon-bukkyo is Buddhism in Japan, so this is directly correlating Tengen as the founder of Buddhism in Japan which correlates with the turning of the ages I mentioned.

Well that's considerably different from both the manga and anime, so this should be reviewed further for context.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The scan you linked didn't say that, but the one Duedate did says shinbutsu mummy.

I did link that scan, it is one of the three linked in that section of my post for context. But I guess that's neither here nor there now.

Well that's considerably different from both the manga and anime, so this should be reviewed further for context.

It isn't really different from the original scan I used.

The time vessel association started in the Nara period as Master Tengen spread Japanese Buddhism and preached the foundations of Jujutsu sorcerers.

Banseikyo originated in the Nara period, when Tengen-sama, the founder of Nihon-bukkyō, preached the moral foundations for minority practitioners as Japanese Buddhism spread across the country.

Both establish Tengen's connections to Japanese Buddhism and Jujutsu and correlate with the change in era and the golden age of Jujutsu. I sent it to my translator but I wouldn't mind someone else taking a look at it if there is a staff that is available.

 

[Deagonx]

It isn't really different from the original scan I used.

It is, calling Tengen the founder of Buddhism is an enormous difference. And the presence of the word "minority" is very odd if Tengen was responsible for both.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It is, calling Tengen the founder of Buddhism is an enormous difference. And the presence of the word "minority" is very odd if Tengen was responsible for both.

Both the scan I posted and the RAWS support the notion of Tengen being the founder of Japanese Buddhism.

It's not, though; as I explained above, Buddhism was not predominant in Japan until the Heian period (it was developed and became more accessible in the Nara period) . Prior to, most Japanese believed in Shinto during the Nara period. So the introduction of both Buddhism and Jujutsu were relatively new to Japan during the time that tengen began spreading both based on her knowledge.