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List Post crisis Superman's inconsistencies

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EmperorRorepme said:
I like how you guys are saying that most universal feats are taken out of context but not giving examples. All issues are canon in DC by the way. There are just different storylines and side stories. Non canon would be crossovers by guest writers or something like that. Literally none of his universal feats are when he's amped. Not sure where PiS comes from and the scaling is coherant.
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That's cause they didn't see the video. Besides, it would throw off their scaling. Didn't you see that Powerscaling inconsistencies in DC and Marvel page? It had a picture of Hulk being bitten by a gorilla, and if anyone is higher than the Hulk that would create LOOOOTs of WACKY hijinks on this website.
 
I'll address them, I just don't know if the proposed evidence is the NF blog (that was rejected btw), the article from the other wiki, or a YouTube video.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
@Xtas Also don't compare Marvel consistency with DC consistency.
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Neither are different when it comes to consistency so it's valid Beside most supes feats that puts him at universal level are incoherent especially where Wonder Woman,Martian Manhunter,Shazam etc barely have any themselves yet shown to **** Superman up
 
Yeah remember when Thanos got arrested by human cops?

And I feel like people are either beating around the bush or not watching the video. I even linked both of them and people are still asking questions about who and what. Also what's the NF Blog?
 
That was a ******* children's book, are you even hearing yourself?

Calm down. Marvel is still extremely inconsistent. There are entire storylines disregarded here because of consistency and the only one for DC I can think of is Death of the New Gods.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
That was a ******* children's book, are you even hearing yourself?
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Calm down. Marvel is still extremely inconsistent. There are entire storylines disregarded here because of consistency and the only one for DC I can think of is Death of the New Gods.
In universe, almost every inconsistency in a fight is explained thoroughly. Not every battle is unplanned and revolves solely on AP/Speed like you're led to believe on this website.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Marvel is more inconsistent so their inconsistencies cannot be compared is what I said.
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Once again both are inconsistent so it's doesn't matter who's bigger
 
To tackle the NF thread first and only focusing on AP

1. Superman stands up to Omega Beams in Superman: Confidental #10. (Yield: at least 1.063779865963146245149006381712E57 J+, at least Galaxy Cluster Level+)

He provides no source for this. But using a google search I found that it refers (to a now 404'ed) Google+ page that's seemingly just a copy paste of the NF thing. That links to this 404'ed calc. So its based on something that cannot be verified.

8.766E16c in speed.

Also not sourced but we have Superman at much higher so whatever

2. Superman goes up against one of the Pocket Universe Kryptonians in Action Comics #591. Pocket Universe Kryptonians are, for all intents and purposes, Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, with the same level of power as Pre-Crisis Superboy. Superman manages to stay in the fight long enough to use Gold Kryptonite.

He says this but there's nothing backing this up. In the story Superman outright says he cannot keep up with Superboy's speed and cannot even keep a grip on him when he goes full tilt. Even when they trade blows Superman says that Superboy is not only stronger than he is but holding back as well. Hell Krypto the Superdog is strongerthan Superma in this issue. Also as one final note Superboy is so much more powerful than Superman that he says outright that he could just steal Golden Kryptonite at FTE speeds and just beat him down if he really wanted to.

So this isn't scaling. This is character consistently stated as being physically superior to Superman holding back because of his morals and knowledge that he isn't the real Superman.

But you want to know a bigger kicker? This issue is completely wrong. Action Comics #591 is about the first version of the history of the Post-Crisis Legion. The images shown in his blog come from Superman vol. 2 #22. In that he does fight those Kryptonians, the same ones that took three entire years to kill everyone on Earth. Do note they didn't even kill all of the heroes, they had to resort to this in order to actually wi. Superman does call them more powerful than he is I guess, but considering a completely unhinged Quel-Ul that looks nothing like the Pre-Crisis one failed to kill him quickly they don't seem super powerful. This is also the same era where Superman was knocked out by nuclear explosions btw.

3. A Darkseid mind-wiped Superman fights Orion. (Yield: High Universe Level | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

This is only universal under the assumption that Orion is consistently universal.

4. In Action Comics #650, Superman stands up to Starbreaker when absolutely no one else in the Justice League could, buying enough time for the Justice League to recover. At normal levels of power, Starbreaker is "only" Galaxy Cluster Level, while at higher levels of power, he is Universe Level. (Yield: at least 4.255119463852584980596025526848E57 J+, at least Galaxy Cluster Level+ | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

This sounds good until the Post-Crisis version of the story is fully developed in Justice League of Amercia vol 2 #29. That that Starbreaker spends the majority of his power making clones who then get smashed by GL and Hawkma. Then when he comes in person its reveled that he literally just let them escape because he was that arrogant. He lost because hope weakens him heavily and he spent to much reserve power on trying to move the Earth into the Su.

So considering the expanded background this isn't a feat for Superman. Its just Starbreaker being really stupid.

6. In Adventures of Superman #470, using his heat vision, Superman causes an earthquake that turns Blaze's dimension, a portion of Hell, into a raging inferno.

He does mention that you can argue its a chain reaction. I'd argue that. Superman mentions previously that the pocket dimension is tied to Jimmy and Jerry. Jerry ended up dying and when Superman took Jimmy away from the area he faded away back to the real world.

I guess there is something here but at the same time Blaze wasn't trying to kill Superman (she wanted his soul) and he didn't provide any evidence that the pocket dimension was particularly large in size.

9. Superman tanks an attack from and manhandles Monarch. (Yield: 2.66E71 J+, Low Universe Level+ | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

This is not Captain Atom Monarch. This is Hank Hall Monarch who doesn't have universal feats.

1. In Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, Superman contributes to the energy of what would become a Big Bang. Specifically, he provides 1/5th of the energy. (Yield: 5.32E70 J, Nigh-Universe Level+ | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

That seems really good... until you remember the Spectre also amped him. Like, there's zero evidence that it wasn't just all the Spectre who created the Big Bang. Also to make it even more sketchy freaking three people were draining most if not all of Hal's power right before they shot into him.

2. Superman fights of Darkseid's Omega Beams, something that not even Orion could accomplish, signifying that this is one of Darkseid's Top Tier avatars. (Yield: High Universe Level+ | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

This is incredibly circular: "Superman is universal because he withstood the Omega Beams which Orion couldn't, so that must be a High level Avatar who's universal so Superman is universal". There's no evidence for any of this.

3. In The Kingdom #2, Superman tanks an out-for-the-kill attack from Kingdom Gog and stays conscious. This same blast would breach the walls of Hypertime, showing how powerful it is. (Yield: at least High Universe Level+ | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

Breaching dimensional space isn't a AP feat.

It is even strong enough to severely cripple an off-guard Mr. Mxyptlk.

An off guard Myx has been taken out by [ Doomsday] and EDIT: Upon a reread it was just Myx messing around with everyone, so it doesn't count, but other 5-D imps have been manhandled by literal childre before when off-guard. So that's not High 2-A feat or anything.

4. In New Gods #10 and #11, Superman, along with Orion, combats S'ivaa, the last Shadow Elemental. S'ivaa is a being capable of destroying "all of existence", and its "Dance of Destruction", which was just a simple dance, was creating shockwaves that were causing natural disasters on and would even destroy all planets in the universe. The shockwaves would even destroy New Genesis and Apokolips, who were halves of a planet that dwarfed galaxies (named Urgrund, Asgard, or GodWorld). Superman is also shown tanking attacks from S'ivaa. Basically, S'ivaa is at least Multi-Megaverse Level for at least being able to destroy the Fourth World, and Superman can withstand its attacks. (Yield: at least Megaverse Level+ | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

Not only is this a prep feat, but it can only destroy reality by cutting a special string between New Genesis and Apokolips. Its like destroying a support being for a skyscraper than causes the entire thing to collapse.

5. In JLA: Primeval, Superman makes his way through Disciple's attack when, due to having absorbed the power of the primordial Elder Gods, beings more powerful than the Old or New Gods, with Disciple being practically a Cube Level+ character at that point in the storyline, and defeats him. The rest of the Justice League was transmuted and devolved by Disciple. (Yield: at least High Universe Level+ Transmutation Resistance | Pre-Our Worlds At War)

There's zero evidence that his gods were on the level of the Old or New Gods. That's just baseless. Even if it was true their powers are heavily weakened based on faith of the modern age and all of the Justice League believed that Superman could do it. He even mentions that he's getting weaker.

I'm pretty tired at the moment. So if its okay with everyone else I can tackle the rest when I get off from work tomorrow. I will say that everything about Imperiex and B13 is for the most part incorrect though.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
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Thank you for that but I think that we need to have all some odd 66 feats debunked and slapped to the post crisis profile because I'm sure there will be way more people wondering the same thing as me. You can take as long as you like to do so or if you want you can get someone else to do it. I think we need an in depth analysis of why the plethora of universal feats are not valid.
 
Wow dude, don't quote such a giant wall of text.

As for the others in the NF blog I'll do them. I'm just tired at the moment and have work tomorrow. But when I get home I'll try to address as much as I can.
 
I'll just copy paste it when I'm done.

But the major point is that a lot of the stuff is context sensitive and selectively choosing stuff can lead to issues. The Monarch part is the primary example. It's just based on an entirely wrong premise. Most of the post is also like that.

So as I said before, I'm against any upgrade for Superman. Its just not consistent or just not a feat in general.
 
@Qawsedf

Well you didn't have to debunk the NF blog. It is already debuked in that thread by several other knowledgeable members including Endless Mike (who is one of the main guys there for comics, especially DC). What do you think that long ass thread is about? It's the debunk of the OP.

Also we are talking about post crisis Superman, not the current Superman. So the feats in that blog still hold, they are not outdated unless we're talking about post-flashpoint or Rebirth Supes.
 
People were using that as evidence so I felt like covering some stuff. If it isn't necessary I'll just stop. But yeah PC Superman should stay as is. Any Tier. Or 1 feat usually has massive context behind it or are viewed in a flawed lense.
 
I watched the videos by Seth and WebCamParrot. I haven't yet attempted to zoom in and figure out where he got his "66 universal feats" from, but just going off the video there are some mistakes.

One of the main suspects is his usage of the word "extradimensional". Ignoring the fact that the scan he used for the GL's being "extradimensional" is from the wrong continuity and is not referring to what he says it does, he takes that word as proof of universal+ AP scaling. He does the same thing in his Toriko video regarding Derrous' extradimensional laser.

That kind of thing could be how he got to such a huge number of universal feats.
 
No I'm pretty sure he didn't count that as a universal feat. He was explaining why some characters from the GLs are Low 2-C and why Superman scales above them. It's not like he solely used that statement either he used actual feats for the scale. Anyway there was more than just that feat on the video.
 
If I can question one part of the video. To my knowledge Boomtubes only rescale a person to fit whatever universe there in. Not rescale there power level. So I'm not sure why Superman using a Boomtube would be on a whole new level (if anyone is knowledgeable about DC correct me if I'm mistaken.)
 
His size would change completely and so would the '''size''' of his capabilities. Like if I grew to planetary size I'd be stronger through sheer size. It wouldn't make sense for me to still be human level.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
No I'm pretty sure he didn't count that as a universal feat. He was explaining why some characters from the GLs are Low 2-C and why Superman scales above them. It's not like he solely used that statement either he used actual feats for the scale. Anyway there was more than just that feat on the video.
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and those are?
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Webcamparrot's extremely comprehensive video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ3FMnzBJ4&t=168s
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...I was wondering why that name seemed familiar. Webcamparrot was a user here once. I distinctly remember having more than one conversation with him last year.

I can't really say anything about his DC knowledge (since mine's been fuzzy around the edges for a long while now), but he always struck me as fairly reasonable, if slightly opinionated. I definitely doubt he'd make any claims he couldn't support himself somehow.

Of course, as one might gather, I haven't seen him in months. So I don't know if he's changed or not. Regardless, I might actually go ahead and watch this.
 
WebCamParrot does come off as fairly reasonable, and he makes several completely valid points throughout his video. I just replayed it while eating. These are the mistakes I noticed while half-paying attention. Probably more I missed, but eh.

Again, these are cherrypicked mistakes, I'm not invalidating every point in the video.

Mistake 1: Zillo Valla stopped time for the entire Superman Beyond story. That instance shouldn't be used as a speed feat at all.

Mistake 2: Superman needed help from Darkseid's and Brainiac's tech to travel back to the big bang. That was Sundipped Superman as well.

Mistake 3 (Minor): Hal Jordan was recreating "much" of the original infinite multiverse, not just a single universe. That was stated by the actual writer of Zero Hour himself in the backup stories of 52.

Mistake 4 (Minor): Brainiac 13's timeline ravaging needs to be interpreted in the highest possible way for it to be equivalent to, for example, Infinite Zamasu from DBS.

Mistake 5: I don't know why he assumes Superman punching Darkseid opened the boom tube when in that storyline the trio were loaned an MB by Barda. It's way more likely that he simply had it on him, given that Darkseid had been lured into a trap in that instance.

Mistake 6: The actual Sphere of the Gods was explicitly never shown on panel prior to a brief flashback in Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle. Making the boomtubed instances used by WebCamParrot and Seth emanations of the godsphere, which are explicitly affected by things like time even if they do exist outside of the normal timestream. This wiki doesn't consider the Sphere of the Gods outerversal either, but that isn't a mistake on his part. He's right that boomtubed Superman doesn't scale to base Superman though.

Mistake 7 (Possible): Star system and solar system are very commonly used interchangeably, meaning it's a major highball to assume every instance of "star system" refers to a cluster. Not that I don't see the point in taking words at face value though, tbh.

Mistake 8: The two scans he used to call the DC universe infinite in size are very clear cases of descriptive hyperbole. There are a couple better scans he could've used here though.

Mistake 9: Not sure when Mogo literally restored the universe while lighting it up. I don't remember that at all, but I guess I could just be misremembering the story.

Mistake 10: Lex Luthor/extradimensional/GL rings. Everything here is wrong.
 
This is not meant for content revision, I just want a better understanding of how post crisis Superman ended up being solar system level.
 
Because his solar system feats are consistent with other high end feats from DC characters.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Because his solar system feats are consistent with other high end feats from DC characters.
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I get that but I want to know the process that you guys went through to get to that conclusion, in full. I know that's really really tall order but I think it's necessary that his profile has thorough debunk of all his immeasurable speed feats and universal attack potency feats.
 
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