Low 2-C Gold Saints, and 7th Sense users (Saint Seiya)

[Antvasima]

@TheUnshakableOne

I would greatly appreciate if some experienced members can please apply the remaining edits in the accepted parts of this revision. Thank you.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@TheUnshakableOne

I would greatly appreciate if some experienced members can please apply the remaining edits in the accepted parts of this revision. Thank you.

who would you recommend..??

I am also sorry for any trouble..

The pandemic hit my work place pretty hard and they mandated 12 hour shifts for 6 days a week..

 

[Antvasima]

Oh. I am sorry to hear that. It will be hard for you to perform the edits then. Is there some other member who has replied to this thread who is willing to help us out here? Preferably one that knows how to edit properly.

 

[Ionliosite]

I can do it if I'm told all the pages that still need to be edited.

 

[Hasty12345]

I can do it if I'm told all the pages that still need to be edited.

I think the Lost Canvas profiles are all that's left

 

[RoyGundam]

Shouldn't we hold off on the Low 2-C upgrades considering the Big Bang Tier revisions that are going on ? Or are they temporarily suspended ?

 

[Hasty12345]

Shouldn't we hold off on the Low 2-C upgrades considering the Big Bang Tier revisions that are going on ? Or are they temporarily suspended ?

it shouldn't affect this upgrade as the Big Bang in Saint Seiya gave birth to time and the spacetime continuum, by energy conservation, power of Big Bang should be low 2-C

 

[Antvasima]

I can do it if I'm told all the pages that still need to be edited.

Thank you very much for the help. It is very appreciated.

I do not know if this is enough, but I created lists for the different current listed tiers of Saint Seiya characters here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima/DPL?useskin=oasis

 

[Antvasima]

Also, can somebody knowledgeable please remind us what our conclusions were here regarding the edits that need to be performed here, along with the rationales for the statistics?

 

[Hasch]

3C, posibly 3A/2C with Athena Exclamation.

 

[Hasty12345]

3C, posibly 3A/2C with Athena Exclamation.

this was NOT the agreed upon statistic

it's "3-C, up to low 2-C at maximum power". look at any original manga gold saint as an example.

 

[Hasch]

this was NOT the agreed upon statistic

That's what I agreed with, Matthew's first suggestion.

Every single claim of single GS reaching Big Bang level has been countered so please don't repeat the same arguments again.

 

[Hasty12345]

Every single claim of single GS reaching Big Bang level has been countered so please don't repeat the same arguments again.

just want to double check with you..

You said that the Gold Saints should be "At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ At their full power"

Should the Villains be the same? (At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ at full power?) The mariners (Poseidon's 7 generals), and the major threats of Hades army? (The Judges, Lune, etc)

I think the Judges definitely and the same for the strong Marines. The problem is that a lot of the ostensably Gold Saint level dudes in Hades' Army are just there to be fodder.

Matt agreed with "At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ At their full power"

 

[Hasch]

Matt agreed with "At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ At their full power"

I took that to mean AE or miraculous moments like Seiya and Regulus.

 

[Hasty12345]

I took that to mean AE or miraculous moments like Seiya and Regulus.

then every 7th sense saint when enacting a miracle can reach low 2-C by their very nature, if you agree with "At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ At their full power" means with miracles then sure, we have no disagreement.

 

[RoyGundam]

I took that to mean AE or miraculous moments like Seiya and Regulus.

Photon Burst is consistently described as Big Bang level. Stop downplaying.

Shion's statement is literal.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Hasty. I think that was what I agreed with as well.

We need to properly explain the reasons for the statistics in the profile pages though. @Matthew_Schroeder would you be willing to help out with properly defining this for us?

 

[Hasch]

Photon Burst is consistently described as Big Bang level. Stop downplaying.

Shion's statement is literal.

Shion isn't talking about the power of any single GS and the Photon Burst is an equal to bot TK and GE, which are galaxy level which contradicts the Big Bang statement.

There's also the lack of actual feats to go with those statements for the standard golds.

 

[RoyGundam]

Shion isn't talking about the power of any single GS and the Photon Burst is an equal to bot TK and GE, which are galaxy level which contradicts the Big Bang statement.

There's also the lack of actual feats to go with those statements for the standard golds.

You missed the point that you were blatantly misrepresenting someone else's opinion

 

[Hasch]

You missed the point that you were blatantly misrepresenting someone else's opinion

I know what Matt's opinion was, but his first suggestion was what I posted to avoid the long ass debate we ended up having anyway.

I agree to the possibly 2C just to not have to do that again, but I maintain there's no evidence for single golds, without soma, zeus thunder, miracle boost, fusing with the planet or out of context statements, to be able to reach the power of the big bang.

 

[RoyGundam]

I know what Matt's opinion was, but his first suggestion was what I posted to avoid the long ass debate we ended up having anyway.

What you tried to do was derailment. Which is what you've been doing since almost the beginning - even after multiple rounds of disproving the same opinions

 

[Hasch]

What you tried to do was derailment. Which is what you've been doing since almost the beginning - even after multiple rounds of disproving the same opinions

No, I proved my point and people keeps stonewalling because they can't handle being proven wrong.

They bring a statement, I show a greater and more coherent amount of statements to disprove, they bring out of context statement and I show the whole chapter to explain what actually happened, they post G scans which I show are mistranslations, they show G feats and I show that Titans don't have their real memories or power and that golds had power ups in other times, then the Shaka feat which I explain in detail as being a battle of buddist ideas unrelated to simple attack power.

The next page people ignores all that and posts the same feats already disproved.

 

[RoyGundam]

No, I proved my point and people keeps stonewalling because they can't handle being proven wrong.

Odd way of saying "intentionally lying about the Revisions that were accepted after all manner of input and debate"

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Oy Vey...

 

[Hasch]

Odd way of saying "intentionally lying about the Revisions that were accepted after all manner of input and debate"

Odd way of coceding the point, I already explained how the thread went, therefore

I agree to the possibly 2C just to not have to do that again, but I maintain there's no evidence for single golds, without soma, zeus thunder, miracle boost, fusing with the planet or out of context statements, to be able to reach the power of the big bang.

 

[Hasty12345]

mistranslations

we were aware of them before you posted the correct translations.

Titans don't have their real memories or power

again, we knew that as well. We were only using feats of titans using Dunamis which we scaled. Titans should be at least 2-C with their true power, not once did we argue Golds scale to that.

golds had power ups

Aiolia and Shaka defeated a titan who had dunamis active without any amps, in fact, Aiolia received the titan blood amp AFTER they beat the titan....

Shaka feat which I explain in detail as being a battle of buddist ideas unrelated to simple attack power.

an attack can represent ideas and still have the attack potency the idea correlates too, it's blatantly shown ON PANEL universe getting destroyed. Our interpretation succeeds yours due to occams razor.

more coherent amount of statements to disprove,

The PB=GE is PRIOR to Aiolia awakening the 7th sense (in chapter 60), so the guide book on PB=big bang is not contradicted.

Aiolia is a 6th sense user 2/3 of the story and he's stronger than every other gold excluding Saga and Shaka at the time, alluding the other 7 (assuming Dohko had 7th sense) saints hadn't awoken their 7th sense till after the events of G.

 

[RoyGundam]

Odd way of coceding the point, I already explained how the thread went, therefore

Dude you edited your post after I replied

 

[Hasch]

an attack can represent ideas and still have the attack potency the idea correlates too, it's blatantly shown ON PANEL universe getting destroyed. Our interpretation succeeds yours due to occams razor.

Like how Saga shows planets and the like when using GE which is just a cosmos explosion or how Shaka turned into a giant to hold Ikki, SS has panels that show things for mood and reference of what the characters think that aren't what is actually happening, nothing in the Shaka vs Shijima case implicates attack power when the bonces are standing right there and Shaka is literally just a ghost based on an incredibly small amount of his old cosmos.

The PB=GE is PRIOR to Aiolia awakening the 7th sense (in chapter 60), so the guide book on PB=big bang is not contradicted.

Aiolia is a 6th sense user 2/3 of the story and he's stronger than every other gold excluding Saga and Shaka at the time, alluding the other 7 (assuming Dohko had 7th sense) saints hadn't awoken their 7th sense till after the events of G.

They all had 7 sense from the start, Shaka and the databook compare 7th sense Aioria PB to GE and TK.

You have GE, TK and SR (all top techniques from golds equal or stronger than Aioria) unambiguously and repeatedly stated and shown as galaxy level.

Aiolia and Shaka defeated a titan who had dunamis active without any amps, in fact, Aiolia received the titan blood amp AFTER they beat the titan....

Wasn't it under Mnemosiye seal still? Dunamis alone doesn't mean they have their real power.

 

[Hasty12345]

Wasn't it under Mnemosiye seal still? Dunamis alone doesn't mean they have their real power.

WOULD YOU PLEASE STOP. I have NEVER once said the titans HAD THEIR FULL POWER.

Dunamis was stated by the Titan to be the power that drives the universe to expand infinitely and is stated to be the power to create and destroy all things in the guides. that's clear 3-A to low 2-C AP for dunamis users, with or without the titans having access to their full power - WHICH FOR THE FINAL TIME should be 2-C via scaling to the Olympians as they had a whole war and stuff in the lore.

They all had 7 sense from the start, Shaka and the databook compare 7th sense Aioria PB to GE and TK.

You have GE, TK ansd SR (all top techniques from golds equal or stronger than Aioria) unambiguously and repeatedly stated and shown as galaxy level.

No they didn't. Aiolia is stated to finally have become a true Gold Knight in chapter 60/61 when he awoken the 7th sense.

Saga was roughly equal to Aiolos who logically had 7th (maybe even 8th sense) prior to his death (as he had 7th sense during OG), so only Saga and Dohko are confirmed 7th sense users at the time. Shaka should via scaling and it being heavily implied in the chapter he had 7th sense. all other golds were still very young (Mu hadn't even completed his Saint training) and all WEAKER than 6th sense Aiolia's photon burst, Camus is outright stated equal to 6th sense Aiolia, so Camus having 7th sense is illogical.

ike how Saga shows planets and the like when using GE which is just a cosmos explosion or how Shaka turned into a giant to hold Ikki, SS has panels that show things for mood and reference of what the characters think that aren't what is actually happening, nothing in the Shaka vs Shijima case implicates attack power when the bonces are standing right there and Shaka is literally just a ghost based on an infinite amount of his old cosmos.

this is just flat out disingenuous.

 

[Hasch]

WOULD YOU PLEASE STOP. I have NEVER once said the titans HAD THEIR FULL POWER.

Dunamis was stated by the Titan to be the power that drives the universe to expand infinitely and is stated to be the power to create and destroy all things in the guides. that's clear 3-A to low 2-C AP for dunamis users, with or without the titans having access to their full power - WHICH FOR THE FINAL TIME should be 2-C via scaling to the Olympians as they had a whole war and stuff in the lore.

Yes, but Dunamis is the source of power for all titans, not the powerlevel of each titan.

To make clear what I mean, the power that drives the universe to expand infinitely and is stated to be the power to create and destroy all things is used by all Titans just as cosmos is by everyone else, but each character has different levels with them.

No they didn't. Aiolia is stated to finally have become a true Gold Knight in chapter 60/61 when he awoken the 7th sense.

Saga was roughly equal to Aiolos who logically had 7th (maybe even 8th sense) prior to his death (as he had 7th sense during OG), so only Saga and Dohko are confirmed 7th sense users at the time. Shaka should via scaling and it being heavily implied in the chapter he had 7th sense. all other golds were still very young (Mu hadn't even completed his Saint training) and all WEAKER than 6th sense Aiolia's photon burst, Camus is outright stated equal to 6th sense Aiolia, so Camus having 7th sense is illogical.

You can't become a gold or move at the speed of light without 7th sense, also even star level is impossible without seven sense.

this is just flat out disingenuous.

I mean, why would Shaka literally kill quintillions of lives just to prove a point?

How is he supposed to be a casual universe buster at 1/1000 the cosmos he had when he was stated to be galaxy level?

 

[Hasty12345]

You can't become a gold or move at the speed of light without 7th sense

admittedly, G is super weird like that, however, it is a plot point in the translations I read of 60/61 of Aiolia awakening the 7th sense, nothing I can do about that.



So unless you have some other statement which suggests Aiolia has his 7th sense prior to this, or an alternate translation of the chapter, idk what else to say. And yeah, I'm aware Aiolia has moved LS prior to this, but this scene makes very little sense under the interpretation Aiolia was using his 7th sense in any capacity prior.

Shaka - At last, you have freed yourself once and for all, Aiolia ... now, you have attained full Saint status. - very observant Shaka, not like Aiolia didn't just fight alongside you at LS 12 chapters prior... Narrative-ly, Aiolia didn't have his 7th sense until chapter 60, despite how silly it sounds.

but each character has different levels with them

if they have access to all this power, this same power of dunamis, which grants them these baseline abilities (as in, every dunamis has this power) then it makes very little sense in a fight for their lives they wouldn't use it....

I mean, why would Shaka literally kill quintillions of lives just to prove a point?

How is he supposed to be a casual universe buster at 1/1000 the cosmos he had when he was stated to be galaxy level?

stated galaxy level in G you mean? Saints can get stronger................ what you're doing is like scaling Yhwach to Soul Society Ichigo and limiting his scaling to those feats, it makes no sense. EVERY single Saint has reactive power levels on their profiles, they literally get stronger every fight. Shaka pre Ikki fight<Shaka post Ikki fight, so ASSUMING Shaka got LITERALLY NO STRONGER over 7 years between G and OG, he is above that statement, same goes for all the Saints.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's also implied in chapter 64, no other titans have moved at the speed of light prior to then, which indicates Aiolia hasn't needed to be lightspeed to fight them until they started getting their dunamis and other powers back. So it seems Aiolia can move at LS without 7th sense temporarily??? it wouldn't be unreasonable since 6th sense Seiya with Sagi cloth could perceive Aiolia's LS attacks, indicating the gold cloth in and of itself is a speed amp.



again, if you have any better translations, please share them

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder

Can you give some editing instructions for Ionliosite please?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's also implied in chapter 64, no other titans have moved at the speed of light prior to then, which indicates Aiolia hasn't needed to be lightspeed to fight them until they started getting their dunamis and other powers back. So it seems Aiolia can move at LS without 7th sense temporarily??? it wouldn't be unreasonable since 6th sense Seiya with Sagi cloth could perceive Aiolia's LS attacks, indicating the gold cloth in and of itself is a speed amp.

I think it's just dumb. Aiolia and other Gold Saints move FTL before in Episode G, so him needing to suddenly "Awaken to the 7th Sense" 60 chapters in is absurd, after he already was doing absurd feats like fighting titans and firing the Photon Burst is ridiculous. He clearly had it from the start or he wouldn't even be a Gold Saint to begin with.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I can do it if I'm told all the pages that still need to be edited.

You could do Next Dimension, Lost Canvas, and Santia Sho profiles which are easily navigable using the verse page https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Saint_Seiya#Next_Dimension


You can use Virgo Shaka as a sort of blueprint to look over. I had Matt look him over and he said he looks fine

The idea here is that any tier 4 and tier 3 should be changed (no more Tier 4)

At least 3-C, Low 2-C when using their full power/Maximum power

As by what Matt said, the Gods should be Low 2-C. Which I believe is just Eris out of those profiles.

anyways

Tier: At least 3-C, Low 2-C at His/Her full power (Or something similar to that concept)

Attack Potency: At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ at His/Her maximum power. (Along those lines, or comes off similarly to that)

Striking Strength: At least Galactic, Universal+ At His/Her full power (Same concept. Phrase whoever you like)

Durability: At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ When burning His/Her own Cosmo energy to the utmost. (Again you can phrase tis how you like as long at it is clear that they are "using" their power to "Their limit.")

Don't forget to change the tags/categories. I do this way to often so i do it first thing.

I'll be doing the reminder of the anime profiles, and movies along with Saint Seiya Omega profiles and whatever soul of Gold and Episode G profiles there that aren't god tiers lol

 

[Hasty12345]

I think it's just dumb. Aiolia and other Gold Saints move FTL before in Episode G, so him needing to suddenly "Awaken to the 7th Sense" 60 chapters in is absurd, after he already was doing absurd feats like fighting titans and firing the Photon Burst is ridiculous. He clearly had it from the start or he wouldn't even be a Gold Saint to begin with.

yeah like I don't disagree with you, but they're the only translations for chapter 60 and 64 that I've ever seen. Just Okada things I guess

 

[Hasch]

So unless you have some other statement which suggests Aiolia has his 7th sense prior to this, or an alternate translation of the chapter, idk what else to say. And yeah, I'm aware Aiolia has moved LS prior to this, but this scene makes very little sense under the interpretation Aiolia was using his 7th sense in any capacity prior.

Shaka - At last, you have freed yourself once and for all, Aiolia ... now, you have attained full Saint status. - very observant Shaka, not like Aiolia didn't just fight alongside you at LS 12 chapters prior... Narrative-ly, Aiolia didn't have his 7th sense until chapter 60, despite how silly it sounds.

Maybe he is just drawing more power from his 7th sense?

Else Okada is just showing he didn't read the OG manga.

if they have access to all this power, this same power of dunamis, which grants them these baseline abilities (as in, every dunamis has this power) then it makes very little sense in a fight for their lives they wouldn't use it....

But there's just one Dunamis from which all Titans draw their power, Dunamis is the primordial chaos in the universe and the equivalent to cosmos from humans.

stated galaxy level in G you mean? Saints can get stronger................ what you're doing is like scaling Yhwach to Soul Society Ichigo and limiting his scaling to those feats, it makes no sense. EVERY single Saint has reactive power levels on their profiles, they literally get stronger every fight. Shaka pre Ikki fight<Shaka post Ikki fight, so ASSUMING Shaka got LITERALLY NO STRONGER over 7 years between G and OG, he is above that statement, same goes for all the Saints.

In OG Saga is still galaxy level and GE is sill considered top tier, nothing supports Shaka becoming billions of times stronger despite no training or worthy opponents to push him forward. Also he isn't exponentially stronger than other golds like Camus or Aphrodite.

The fight with Shijima ws simply a battle of ideas where they represent the start and ending of a universe in a confined space and the danger was the void of nothingness Shijima created not the attack power itself.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder

Can you give some editing instructions for Ionliosite please?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @TheUnshakableOne @Ionliosite

I would greatly appreciate your help with finishing this project.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'll be able to continue a bit today and some more late saturday and Sunday chicago time