Low 2-C Gold Saints, and 7th Sense users (Saint Seiya)

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Saori has been stated to be more powerful than the Gold Saints, not sure if combined or so but the statement is there so she kinda has to be at the least Low 2-C too

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I said 3-c when I meant 3-A. That's on me

 

[Hasty12345]

Bullshit, there's at least 1 in each spin off, out of memory there's at least 3 in G and 3+ in the OG manga




7th sense varies wildly, from star level and up seeing the Libra weapons and that galaxy level power is reserved for the strongest gold saints techniques.

We are also told Cosmos itself is the power from the Big Bang, even normal bronce saints "mimic the creation of the universe" with their battle moves, using Cosmos is causing a Big Bang in their inner universe

Again, that only proves PB is galaxy level.

Both GE and TK are stated galaxy level and compared to PB, so why would we discard those 2 comments for the single PB 1?




Dimension Iapeteos never said he created a universe, he said he created "another world" meaning a paralel dimension, which is of unknow size, also I think the golds where also amped by soma in that fight while Iapetos still didn't have his memories.




If you mean the dialogue "like the universe started" then you have nothing, since the clash is also compared to the concept of "good vs evil"

Also, it's two techniques at once not the power of a single GE, which is galaxy level in LC, which isn't even canon to the OG manga.

There's no plural in japanese.

all your "debunks" were addressed earlier in the thread.

Rehashing the same arguments over and over again is ridiculously annoying and ad nauseum.

This thread is going in circles.

3-C likely low 2-C for top tiers (strongest 6 golds saints) and 3-C possibly low 2-C for the weaker 6 sounds like the best course of action.

my suggestions for top 6 are in NO particular order (I'm not gonna start a war over gold saint rankings):

1) Aiolia
2) Dohko
3) Saga/Kanon
4) Shion
5) Mu
6) Shaka
7) Aiolos

oh well would you look at that, there's more then 6.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think the gods would straight up be Low 2-C. They scale above the maximum output of Gold Saints.

I agree, the low tier gods (not Hades level) would just scale massively higher in low 2-C as the golds do bar miracles etc.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Another problem i see here is if Galaxian Explosion remains as the "Strongest Technique" or the most "fearsome" or the "Deadliest" attack (even though there are techniques that are equal to it which are shown and displayed to us)

This would scale above Dohko and Shion and their techniques.

Dohko and Shion before this thread were Tier 3-A scaling off Shion destroying and recreating the Universe statement. Then stalemating each other.

 

[Hasty12345]

Dohko and Shion before this thread were Tier 3-A scaling off Shion destroying and recreating the Universe statement.

Given how the creation of a universe is a low 2-C feat (due to big bang creating time) they should be upgraded to low 2-C based on that alone.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"At least 3-C, Low 2-C at their maximum" is very accurate for Gold Saint honestly.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"At least 3-C, Low 2-C at their maximum" is very accurate for Gold Saint honestly.

My one problem with that is that the Gold Saints should be fighting with their max all the time.

They are fighting for the sake of the world, for Earth, Athena, their family, and Humanity. For the sake of love and peace on Earth. So when fighting the likes of the Mariners, Gods, Gigas, Specters etc. They should always be fighting with their max power.

Gemini Saga in the Sanctuary arc was going after both Seiya and Ikki with Killing intent so he should have been using his Maximum power on them too.

Same with Gemini Kanon in the Poseidon arc against Ikki.

With them fighting the Specters it should be a given that they were fighting at their max and not holding back.

Their should not be a situation where they were not at their max. Shura, camu, and Saga getting ready to do a second Athena Exclamation should also cement their determination for how far they would go to achieve their goal. (Whatever it was lol)

but if this is your final wish then i shall go with it.

 

[Hasty12345]

"At least 3-C, Low 2-C at their maximum" is very accurate for Gold Saint honestly.

I'm cool with that, I think the changes should be made and this thread can be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

3-C likely low 2-C for top tiers (strongest 6 golds saints) and 3-C possibly low 2-C for the weaker 6 sounds like the best course of action.

So should we use this or Matthew's suggestion?

"At least 3-C, Low 2-C at their maximum" is very accurate for Gold Saint honestly.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm cool with that, I think the changes should be made and this thread can be closed.

Well, we can first close it after all the changes have been made.

 

[Hasch]

Libra weapons are irrelevant. In fact, they are so much higher than Gold Saints it is insane. + Your statement relies heavily on Seiya who is a teenage kids that should know nothing about the Libra Weapons.

Here is a quick summary of the Libra Weapon feats

1.) Blocked attack from Pontos that were bloodlusted, and he was annoyed that someone was getting in the way of him controlling Aiolia

2.) They blocked attacks from Alone- Hades whom was stated stronger than Hypnos and Thanatos

3.) They blocked an attack from Poseidon

4.) Thy were stated stronger than the combined power of all 12 gold saints combined

5.) The Libra Sword put a crack into the Cataclysm Slash which was stated to be equal to or greater than Abzu and later it stalemated a super over powered Athena Exclamation

6.) The Libra Weapons turned the tide of a war of Ares + Eris and a couple of other Gods. Which led to Ares retreating into the underworld.

7.) They destroyed Poseidon's pillars which were supported by his will.

They are not star level! Seiya's statement is immediately contradicted.

Question, How did you get star level Gold Saints? When by virtue of downscaling by wiki standards that would be impossible.

It's not just seiya, all the Bronce including Shiryu (Dohko's apprentice) believe the weapons can destroy stars when wielded by them, with 7th sense active

Do you have any idea how many Gold saints have the statements of "I am the strongest?" Also the "Strongest Gold Saint Technique" Gets immediately contradicted by scaling, and shown feats. So that statement isn't really usable.

Only Shaka and Saga are said to be the strongest, no technique has ever been called stronger than GE so there's no contradiction.

Your argument here falls apart due the elaborate explanation we get about the 7th sense, + the supporting feats that follow after it which have been talked about thousands of times on this thread. This will not scale to bronze saints or silver saints as they do not have the 7th sense. This would only scale to the main character + Those whom they are equal too or those greater than them.

The only thing said about the 7th sense it's that it's the source of Cosmos or something, it has never been said it gives Big Bang level power just for reaching it.

This has been talked about to death on why its wrong.

No, nobody has shown any reason to take the PB statement over the GE and TK statements.

ou are wrong here, and here its stated to be a Universe.

We have already stablished that as misstranslations, you are literally repeating already debunked arguments https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-2...h-sense-users-saint-seiya.108448/post-3449080

They don't have any way to add an "S" at the end of their words. However, they have indicative words such as few, several, many. etc

You can't stonewall the thread forever.

Then bring the RAW and lets check it.

I think dude is being very stubborn by insisting every single mention of Big Bang is purely metaphorical.

I said most are, when it's not it's directly contradicted by feats and statements, then proved that's how it is.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's not just seiya, all the Bronce including Shiryu (Dohko's apprentice) believe the weapons can destroy stars when wielded by them, with 7th sense active

Only Shaka and Saga are said to be the strongest, no technique has ever been called stronger than GE so there's no contradiction.




The only thing said about the 7th sense it's that it's the source of Cosmos or something, it has never been said it gives Big Bang level power just for reaching it.




No, nobody has shown any reason to take the PB statement over the GE and TK statements.




We have already stablished that as misstranslations, you are literally repeating already debunked arguments https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-2...h-sense-users-saint-seiya.108448/post-3449080






Then bring the RAW and lets check it.




I said most are, when it's not it's directly contradicted by feats and statements, then proved that's how it is.

actually all the ministrations have been dealt with and we are aware of well before you responded with them. PLEASE READ THE THREAD. You are continually rehashing arguments that have already been debunked, discussed, or we are already aware of.

The star level libra weapons are outliers and have been retconned in GA with aiolos stating the reason why golds aren't allowed to use weapons is because they become "like gods" iirc. I'll get the scans and link them as soon as possible. However, I believe those Poseidon arc statements have already been neglected by this wiki.

 

[Hasch]

actually all the ministrations have been dealt with and we are aware of well before you responded with them. PLEASE READ THE THREAD. You are continually rehashing arguments that have already been debunked, discussed, or we are already aware of.

The star level libra weapons are outliers and have been retconned in GA with aiolos stating the reason why golds aren't allowed to use weapons is because they become "like gods" iirc. I'll get the scans and link them as soon as possible. However, I believe those Poseidon arc statements have already been neglected by this wiki.

That's the reason whyh I told the other user that the Iapetos things are mistranslations.

The libra weapons thing is simple, reaching 7th sense gives you LS and at least star level stats, from there the characters can draw even more power the more proficient they are and that's why golds reach galaxy level and surpass that with the Libra weapons.

Now Big Bang level is only posible with Athena Exclamation, which is why Athena decided it was too much power for golds and sealed the technique.

 

[Hasty12345]

That's the reason whyh I told the other user that the Iapetos things are mistranslations.

The libra weapons thing is simple, reaching 7th sense gives you LS and at least star level stats, from there the characters can draw even more power the more proficient they are and that's why golds reach galaxy level and surpass that with the Libra weapons.

Now Big Bang level is only posible with Athena Exclamation, which is why Athena decided it was too much power for golds and sealed the technique.

we knew about the Aries Mu/Iapetus mistranslations, please read the thread, Matt brought it up 2ish weeks ago.

The libra weapons are debunked by your own arguments of "galaxy level 50+ times", so it's very clear you are intentionally downplaying and being intellectually dishonest.

The big bang is not "only possible" through AE, Seiya has proved that and scaling+statements+feats demonstrate from other characters prove you wrong.

To be candid, this whole thread has been trying to convince one person who's being intellectually dishonest and downplaying every statement and feat with demonstrably no justification. You have just here demonstrated ill intent by now claiming star level gold saints despite many times admitting to above star level feats. Please stop being a nuisance so we can get this thread closed, it has gone on long enough.

I thank you for keeping "us" (referring to helping eliminate faulty evidence) honest, however, the gold saints have been stated to keep their power hidden, this immediately makes the gold saints an unreliable source of information regarding their own power. Shion (who's dead at the time of that statement and thus not bound by it) states the gold saints have power AS STRONG AS the big bang, there is no misinterpretation with "power of cosmos" etc (furthermore the statement in inner monologue and thus still maintains the secret anyway).

The ratings have already been agreed upon to be (what i believe to be) lowered to reflect YOUR, no one else, just YOUR concerns about the ratings, however, majority rules, the upgrades should be applied and this CRT should be closed.

 

[Hasty12345]

As promised the weapons scans (they're in the wrong order and imgur won't let me switch them for some reason):



Aiolos uses that sword to behead Athena.

I don't think gods are star level.

 

[Hasch]

The libra weapons are debunked by your own arguments of "galaxy level 50+ times", so it's very clear you are intentionally downplaying and being intellectually dishonest.

How are the libra weapons being star level when used by 7th sense bronce saints debunked by Gold Saints being galaxy level?

The big bang is not "only possible" through AE, Seiya has proved that and scaling+statements+feats demonstrate from other characters prove you wrong.

All those statements where taken out of context and contradicted by a greater number of more coherent statements and feats.

There's no Big Bang level feat by a single Gold Saint, not even one.

I thank you for keeping "us" (referring to helping eliminate faulty evidence) honest, however, the gold saints have been stated to keep their power hidden, this immediately makes the gold saints an unreliable source of information regarding their own power. Shion (who's dead at the time of that statement and thus not bound by it) states the gold saints have power AS STRONG AS the big bang, there is no misinterpretation with "power of cosmos" etc (furthermore the statement in inner monologue and thus still maintains the secret anyway).

The ratings have already been agreed upon to be (what i believe to be) lowered to reflect YOUR, no one else, just YOUR concerns about the ratings, however, majority rules, the upgrades should be applied and this CRT should be closed.

Majority is irrelevant, what matters is the strenght of the evidence for each argument.

I think english isn't your first lenguage, otherwise I don't know how you could missinterpret the "golds can secretly destroy the universe" thing so bad.

They aren't hidding their power, the very existence of the golds and their power is a secret to the modern world in Saint Seiya, that's the meaning of that line, and indeed golds, as a group, might be able to destroy the universe.

Aiolos uses that sword to behead Athena.

I don't think gods are star level.

Athena depends on wether or not she had her armor, but the Hades saga proved gold saints are irrelevant against Hades in his real body with his armor, with or without libra weapons.

 

[Hasty12345]

They aren't hidding their power, the very existence of the golds and ther power is a secret to the modern world in Saint Seiya, that's the meaning of that line, and indeed golds, as a group, might be able to destroy the universe.

get scans and prove your interpretation is more accurate.

 

[Hasch]

get scans and prove your interpretation is more accurate.

I mean, who else you thing they are hiding their power from?

Your interpretation is that when Saga says, or thinks, he can destroy a galaxy, he is actually liying (to himself, his oponents, the readers, etc) and he is actually universe level.

This scan is describing the Santuary and the Golds as a group, it never talks about a single Gold saint being capable of destroying the universe. The "secret" is the very existance of all of that.

This scan is about Shion saying the power of love and armony is the greatest of them all, hardly anything literal. Then the other character wonders if this power of love, miracles, which resides in the spirits of all Golds, could match the Big Bang.

If any Gold was capable of destroying the universe, doesn't that mean Athena is wrong about her decision to seal the Athena Exclamation?

 

[Antvasima]

We should stop the circular back and forth and try to reach a conclusion here.

Again, which of these suggestions should we use?

3-C likely low 2-C for top tiers (strongest 6 golds saints) and 3-C possibly low 2-C for the weaker 6 sounds like the best course of action.

"At least 3-C, Low 2-C at their maximum" is very accurate for Gold Saint honestly.

 

[Hasty12345]

This scan is describing the Santuary and the Golds as a group, it never talks about a single Gold saint being capable of destroying the universe. The "secret" is the very existance of all of that.

I agree with some of this.

The secret is the existence of the gold saints etc, not that they're universal which is proved via Aiolia and is PB, Saga and his GE as stated in GA can destroy worlds , Shaka and his continual creation of universes that would go on for eternity had Shun not intervened etc.

The whole point of the Shion scan is to set a clear gauge on the gold saints' abilities, I detest the notion "none of it is literal" despite a clear separation in literal language and poetic prose. Furthermore, this is one of the flashback mini chapters in G, the point of this is to preface Aiolia's feats and the rest of the golds in G when they do perform these seemingly ridiculous feats out of nowhere.

Shion is correct in line of reasoning, that's proven by Aiolia at the very least with his photon burst. (and power equal to Zeus', I'm all for 2-A Aiolia btw).

 

[Hasty12345]

We should stop the circular back and forth and try to reach a conclusion here.

Again, which of these suggestions should we use?

Matt's I believe to be the most accurate.

 

[Hasch]

Again, which of these suggestions should we use?

"At least 3-C, Low 2-C at their maximum" is fine for the high tier Golds since they reach that with AE.

Shion is correct in line of reasoning, that's proven by Aiolia at the very least with his photon burst. (and power equal to Zeus', I'm all for 2-A Aiolia btw).

Photon Burst is galaxy level, all Titans are extremely nerfed and Golds have temporary power ups trough the latter part of G.

Shion is talking about the power of love bringing miracles, nothing more.

 

[Hasty12345]

Shion is talking about the power of love bringing miracles, nothing more.

low 2-C via miracles then, Seiya has 3 big bangs via miracles anyway, the golds would scale.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Do you not understand the concept of power creeping?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So are the rest of you fine with if we apply Matthew's suggestion?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Okay. So are the rest of you fine with if we apply Matthew's suggestion?

I am fine with it, yes

But I do standby what I said earlier where they should always by using their maximum power.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Okay. So are the rest of you fine with if we apply Matthew's suggestion?

I am also fine with it

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Photon Burst is galaxy level, all Titans are extremely nerfed and Golds have temporary power ups trough the latter part of G.

Photon Burst is consistently described as Big Bang level. Stop downplaying.

Shion's statement is literal.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Photon Burst is consistently described as Big Bang level. Stop downplaying.

Shion's statement is literal.

Question,

Anyone whom was Tier 3-A, or high 3-A before this thread should be bumped up to straight up Low 2-C, correct? Most referring to Regulus, Shion, Dohko, and Hades Amped Wyvern Rhad.

What about Eris whose doesn't have much impressive feats?

 

[Antvasima]

Are some of you willing to help out with applying the many edits that are required from what has been agreed here?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I don't have much authority/knowledge on how to make the revisions, bu I'd be willing to help.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I can also get started soon

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottom of the profile pages.

Also, only members who know what they are doing should preferably edit, as I do not have enough free time to do lots of cleanup work.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Photon Burst is consistently described as Big Bang level. Stop downplaying.

Shion's statement is literal.

I sent you a personal message regarding a calc related to this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Experienced members who know how to edit properly should feel free to start applying the agreed upon changes to all of the relevant Saint Seiya pages.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

i been having internet connection problems the past 2 days. and finally got it by contacting my ISP. my isp is shit i need to change it

its now 11pm here and late so i'll have to get started on it in about 12 ~ 16 hours.. I am sorry for the delay..

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Thank you for helping out. Just make sure to include all of the relevant Saint Seiya profile pages in your revision.

 

[Jasonsith]

For assurance I would like to have all characters that may be affected by this CRT listed one more time before any expert applying such change.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that these are the ones:

Antvasima/DPL

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