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Mario (Character) Revision

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VenomElite said:
What other characters? Mario has no established cano therefore he is an exception. We aren't doing this for any other character when they have an established canon (DBZ, Sonic, Sailor Moon, etc). Especially since they have coherent continuity. That's the difference here.

Anyways, I must go to bed but I hope this can be resolved without causing trouble with our rules.
Click to expand...
True, but what about Kirby? Does it have an established canon, or is it like the Marioverse?
 
What is the objection here? People are using the "0 canon" argument (False) to act like there are no inconsistencies or separate versions? Please, there clearly are, and we need to split Mario into keys representing his most notable games.
 
Well, we already have a separate page for Paper Mario.
 
Paper Mario is even more distinct from the other games. So a separate page is fine. However, the games I brought up have differences too, and Keys in Mario's page would be good.
 
@Matthew

No, they are not. As far as games are concern, there's no different version of Mario.This only holds true for the cartoon and movies.
 
There are several Tier 4-ish feats outside of the Galaxy games, aren't there? Bowser creating a bunch of pocket universes with suns and whatnot in SM64 comes to mind and... Say...

Come to think of it, in that game, Mario got boosts via "Star Power" from all the stars he would get throughout the game. Pretty much every NPC mentions it, too. In Galaxy 1 & 2, stars played a big role as well. Could we have overlooked a source of power for Mario's higher-end feats?

Let's compile a list of the most impressive Mario feats and see if we can divine any patterns, why don't we?
 
I doubt that. In the Galaxy series, Mario never really used the Star Powe to amp himself up. Mario never really needed any power-ups to achieve any of these feats.
 
@Paleomario66

I guess you're right, then. Still, it would behoove us to see all of Mario's high-end feats and see if that helps us make any decisions. Paper Mario actually has feats in which he creates pocket universes to perform special attacks in. Mario is actually pretty consistently Tier 4 across genres. Let me see if I can find a good list of such feats, though I welcome anyone else to try to do the same.
 
@Matt

I remembered Bowser being responsible for the creation of all those worlds within the paintings. Could someone fact check me on that? I'm searching for citations at the moment.
 
Follow Doctor Freeman said:
Could someone fact check me on that? I'm searching for citations at the moment.
Click to expand...
Am I glad to see you! The Princess...and I...and, well, everybody...we're all trapped inside the castle walls. Bowser has stolen the castle's Stars, and he's using their power to create his own world in the paintings and walls. Please recover the Power Stars! As you find them, you can use their power to open the doors that Bowser has sealed. There are four rooms on the first floor. Start in the one with the painting of Bob-omb inside. It's the only room that Bowser hasn't sealed. When you collect eight Power Stars, you'll be able to open the door with the big star. The Princess must be inside!
Thank heavens you came too, Yoshi! Bowser has locked Princess Toadstool and all of us inside the walls. He stole our Power Stars, and is using their magic to create an evil land of monsters in the castle walls and paintings. Mario and his buddies went to retrieve the Stars, but they haven't come back. Last time I saw them, they were heading to the room with the painting of the Bob-ombs. Where are they?! Are they taking a nap somewhere? Now it's up to you, Yoshi, to find them and retrieve the Stars! We all are depending on you!
Here's the link.
 
@Matt

I think he is talking about Super Mario 64, some of the paintings have stars, if I can remember correctly.

But I don't remember if Bowser himself created those paintings.

EDIT:

nah forget it, Kevyn already commented it...
 
Here are some higher end feats. I took the liberty of not including vague feats and outliers, such as Culex and Dreamy Bowser. This list is based on posts I found while perusing Mario revision threads on the wiki. I'll leave it to others what to make of all this.

  • Super Mario 64 - Defeated Power Star-amped Bowser. Bowser used the Power Stars to create worlds in the paintings and trap people in there. These worlds usually consist of a planet and a sun from what can be seen by the player.
  • Super Mario Galaxy - Fought Bowser, who soon after survived falling into a sun (and the supernova of said sun?). MFTL+ stuff. We also get to see all sorts of stuff powered by Power Stars.
  • Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Fought Bowser again but this time Bowser amped with a Grand Star, an artifact Bowser was going to use to create a galaxy and destroyed the universe in SMG1. He did nearly the same thing in the final battle via a Black Hole. More MFTL+ stuff.
  • Mario Party 9 - Black hole stuff.
  • Super Mario RPG - Fought Smithy. Not sure what this entails.
  • Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story - Fought the Dark Star and the Dark Star Core. The Dark Star in the past was only defeated by the Star Sprites, who are similar to the Star Spirits. He also beat Bowser in the credits, who just destroyed Dark Bowser.
  • Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam - Fought ShinyRoboBowser, who can counter and survive Paper Mario's Trio Attack. One of the Trio Attacks involves Paper Mario sending them into a space arena with actual stars, unlike previous attacks. Not sure if this is creation or BFR, fact check would be appreciated.
  • Paper Mario - Fought Bowser amped by the Star Rod.
  • Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Fought the Shadow Queen. Not sure what this entails.
  • Paper Mario: Color Splash - Fought Black Bowser. The black paint powering up Bowser is a mix of all colors which, according to one of the Big Paint Stars, gives life to the world.
I'll add citations if asked. I added ones I found in the threads. So, where does Mario Teaches Typing's Mario Head fit into all this?
 
VenomElite said:
Not "different incarnations" just different keys for his most notable portrayals because otherwise he is very inconsistent, which I completely disagree with.
Click to expand...
@DRB I agree with this and a footnote.

And I'm not saying that Ant is wrong in that the possibility for bothersome threads to be made doesn't exist. Just that this isn't a good reason to go against something.

I mean. Are we now going to not make a Dragon Ball downgrade or comic upgrade or something cause we don't want people to make threads about it? Do we have to no longer make certain exceptions for author avatars or non-canon characters cause people would make threads about that? The next time one makes a content revision thread how about I comment "Yeah well people might make bothersome threads if we do this so I'm going to say no."

I feel horrible that Ant has to deal with these bad threads and I tremendously appreciate his hard work. But I disagree with denying someone a rating since people might make annoying threads about it. And if this was an actual basis to turn something down, then a majority of our controversial revisions would have to not happen.

Those are my final thoughts on it. I'm sorry that I was asleep and many posts happened since. But I felt DRB deserves some sort of response from me. You guys can do whatever you want. That's just my opinion.
 
Did the feats I shared help with anything? Personally, I think that there is enough information to suggest making Normal Mario Tier 4-ish without dividing him into another key for Galaxy, even if he isn't the most consistent Tier 4 out there. Now all there's left to do is decide about Super Mario RPG, the Mario & Luigi titles, and the Paper Mario titles.

And the educational games. No? Maybe not them, then.

Not sure what to make of Super Mario RPG. The Mario & Luigi titles have good AP feats and excellent speed feats, but it must be discussed whether or not they could be lumped in with Normal or simply given a key of their own. Paper Mario is around the level of his 3-D brethren in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, so he can scale to them but should probably be given a page of his own. Does all this sound reasonable?
 
I'm willing to separate them into keys, or even different pages like the OBD does. But Galaxy is still a main game and shouldn't have its own tabber. My opinion won't sway on that one. Sorry.
 
The real cal howard said:
I'm willing to separate them into keys, or even different pages like the OBD does. But Galaxy is still a main game and shouldn't have its own tabber. My opinion won't sway on that one. Sorry.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with this. Keep Galaxy in main games.
 
Yeah, Galaxy shouldn't have its own tabber since we've established that Tier 4-ish Mario is consistent with other main titles. Don't know where the RPGs fit into this, but Dream Team has speed feats akin to that in the Galaxy games and numerous RPGs have AP feats in global threats and the like.

@Kevyn

Paper Mario will be largely unchanged. Depending on where we decide the Mario and Luigi titles should fit, he may get a tier change based on scaling, though.
 
Honestly, with that Black Hole feat I found with an ordinary Power Star, I feel as if main Mario should be 4-B, given that in SM64, he possesses 70 of them. And even one of them gives a boost, as it turned a Wriggler that is even smaller than regular Wrigglers, by a factor of ten, if not hundreds, into a boss that's bigger than Mario himself by a lot.
 
Well, if you're sure that's a real black hole. I guess Mario already has some great speed and durability feats (some from that very same game), so that helps explain why he didn't instantly get sucked in and die. I can buy it, personally, but others may not like the idea of that thing not just sucking in everything within a few light year's radius. What's important is determining whether or not regular Power Stars are feasibily Tier 4-ish.
 
"Defeated Power Star-amped Bowser."

Define "defeated". He wins but he does not harm Bowser himself as Bowser is invincible to Mario. He has to use the bombs around the arena to do that.

"Fought Bowser, who soon after survived falling into a sun (and the supernova of said sun?)."

Said sun is like 1 km across. It's supernova would get maybe Island level at best, especially since the star is hollow.

"Mario Party 9 - Black hole stuff."

Pretty sure black holes are unquantifiable.

"Fought Bowser amped by the Star Rod."

Only after he was weakened by Peach. Up until then Bowser was invincible to Mario.
 
I can't say much about anything after the first rebuttal (except the second but I'll get to that l8r), the first thing is clearly game mechanics. Mario can easily survive attacks from him and Bowser can't do anything when Mario picks him up from behind.
 
A lot of Mario characters are rated as High 4-C via a supernova feat of Bowser's. Could Xcano perhaps calculate that feat? It'd be extremely helpful to the stats.
 
The argument for being star level is that a black hole was formed by collapse after, and only a real star originates a black hole after its collapse. Although I believe this feat shouldn't be considered and/or that at least we shouldn't consider it to scale to other characters in the series. I'm still in doubt if it can be solidly considered a star level feat at all.
 
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