-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Mario (Character) Revision
- Thread starter Momokamaru
- Start date
-
- Tags
- mario mario bros
- Status
- 268
- 26
I agree with this, since Paper Mario has its own separate page. And I also agree that Mario has no official canon, and a lot of the games have references to each other.Matthew Schroeder said:
The separate keys would make sense especially from scaling to Bowser, since his durability and power varies just as much (Country level in the main series; Universe level+ in the Galaxy series).
- 3,260
- 293
I have messaged Dino Range Black regarding this thread.
- 2,031
- 988
Before I start, I like to clarify something about the misconception alot of people have with the series: The franchise lack an established canon but do not mistake it that continuity does not exist since it definitely does.Nintendo have established that Mario various different games, events, and occupations exists, even as a fighter in SSB. According to Miyamoto, the cast are treated like a trope of actors, hence the various situations they manage to get into, despite their roles and habitat. This is why characters such as Bowser can be found in kart racing games (Referring to it as a tournament in Paper Mario: Color Splash) and the Star Spirits from Paper Mario act as party hosts in Mario Party 5. In short, the lore and the characters are still the same across the various different genres and games. It's really only the animated series and the movie where the continuity is clearly and entirely different. I'm not to sure about the comics but I doubt anything is relevant from there anyway.
Okay, now for Peach's suggestion. I believe Ryu proposed something similar to this but it got turned down. I can't remember why, though. It seems logical enough but my major concern is by doing this, spectators are going to treat Mario as completely different incarnations as a result, despite being the same character in all the games. I do agree Mario has some wide array of feats across the games but the character himself is constant. Another concern I have is the proposed, '''Main Series''' stats. SMG and it's sequel is part of the main series. Why are we separating them apart from the fact we have high end feats in those games, especially since the proposed tier for the '''Main Series''' stat also came from that same game? Now, I'm not saying we should use the Galaxy feats to represent it but it would be incredibly contradicting in our part and alot of Mario's powers, abilities, and moves listed on his profile are taken from other series as well such as the Yoshi games, among other spin-offs. Let's not forget the fact, some characters are scaled off from him as well.
Plus, I believe by doing this, it would be unfair for other characters who achieved similar feats but won't get the same treatment. Notable examples are Sonic and Kirby, both who were constantly denied in the past threads for their 2-C and 3-A feats respectively. We could potentially open Pandora's Box if we decided to roll with this, not only with people knowledge in the said franchises, but others as well, demanding for the same thing such as asking for separate keys in the saga/series Master Roshi is in for his moon busting feat in a similar fashion.
Okay, now for Peach's suggestion. I believe Ryu proposed something similar to this but it got turned down. I can't remember why, though. It seems logical enough but my major concern is by doing this, spectators are going to treat Mario as completely different incarnations as a result, despite being the same character in all the games. I do agree Mario has some wide array of feats across the games but the character himself is constant. Another concern I have is the proposed, '''Main Series''' stats. SMG and it's sequel is part of the main series. Why are we separating them apart from the fact we have high end feats in those games, especially since the proposed tier for the '''Main Series''' stat also came from that same game? Now, I'm not saying we should use the Galaxy feats to represent it but it would be incredibly contradicting in our part and alot of Mario's powers, abilities, and moves listed on his profile are taken from other series as well such as the Yoshi games, among other spin-offs. Let's not forget the fact, some characters are scaled off from him as well.
Plus, I believe by doing this, it would be unfair for other characters who achieved similar feats but won't get the same treatment. Notable examples are Sonic and Kirby, both who were constantly denied in the past threads for their 2-C and 3-A feats respectively. We could potentially open Pandora's Box if we decided to roll with this, not only with people knowledge in the said franchises, but others as well, demanding for the same thing such as asking for separate keys in the saga/series Master Roshi is in for his moon busting feat in a similar fashion.
- 11,484
- 7,685
If the concern is to treat Mario the same as we do other games, we are already clearly going against this with the Variable Tier.
Mario's lack of canon and wide array of feats make him a different case than things like Sonic and Kirby. Hence I think it is fair they be treated different at least in that regard. Again, we already are doing that either way whether it's Variable Tier or separate keys.
And I don't think we should deny a rating for someone because of the mere hypothetical possibility someone might make poor upgrade attempts misunderstanding the reason behind the rating. Mario's deal is obviously different than assigning anyone a separate tier for their outliers like Roshi. If people try to compare them, we simply explain to them the difference. Like we would with any other faulty thread.
One issue I do have however is that Galaxy is a main series game. So we'd probably have to call or classify those keys as something else.
Mario's lack of canon and wide array of feats make him a different case than things like Sonic and Kirby. Hence I think it is fair they be treated different at least in that regard. Again, we already are doing that either way whether it's Variable Tier or separate keys.
And I don't think we should deny a rating for someone because of the mere hypothetical possibility someone might make poor upgrade attempts misunderstanding the reason behind the rating. Mario's deal is obviously different than assigning anyone a separate tier for their outliers like Roshi. If people try to compare them, we simply explain to them the difference. Like we would with any other faulty thread.
One issue I do have however is that Galaxy is a main series game. So we'd probably have to call or classify those keys as something else.
- 165,211
- 72,191
I agree with DRB.
Given the sheer number of Mario games, it would be extremely impractical to assign every one of them a separate tier, and also impossible to do in most cases, due to lack of proper feats.
As he said, we would also risk to open Pandora's box for other game characters, and turn their profiles cluttered, incomprehensible, and extremely hard to manage.
As such, I prefer how we currently give Mario a semi-composite treatment.
Given the sheer number of Mario games, it would be extremely impractical to assign every one of them a separate tier, and also impossible to do in most cases, due to lack of proper feats.
As he said, we would also risk to open Pandora's box for other game characters, and turn their profiles cluttered, incomprehensible, and extremely hard to manage.
As such, I prefer how we currently give Mario a semi-composite treatment.
- 11,582
- 548
After two years of being here, i didn't think we'd have a butterfly effect when doing something to just ONE or so profiles here....
- 11,484
- 7,685
No one is asking for a tier for every single game. Just separate keys for some of the more relevant showings/sets.
Since when have we denied anyone an accurate rating on the basis of people possibly making poor upgrade attempts by misunderstanding the reasoning of the rating?
Mario is a different case as explained. We don't have to treat other games the same. And like I said not wanting to give someone an accurate rating cause some people may make want others rated the same is a rather poor reason I feel with all due respect and not much better than denying ratings out of "fear or controversy."
Since when have we denied anyone an accurate rating on the basis of people possibly making poor upgrade attempts by misunderstanding the reasoning of the rating?
Mario is a different case as explained. We don't have to treat other games the same. And like I said not wanting to give someone an accurate rating cause some people may make want others rated the same is a rather poor reason I feel with all due respect and not much better than denying ratings out of "fear or controversy."
- 11,484
- 7,685
So when an exception is actually reasonable and justified, we're just not going to make one cause we're afraid others are going to want the same be done for others? Again, how is this much better than denying someone a rating cause we don't want controversy or something?
- 11,484
- 7,685
Also with all due respect I feel like this slippery slope fear is a little bit exaggerated like Ever earlier said in a different thread. Other exceptions we've made don't lead to this.
We've made multiple exceptions to our "no author avatars" rule and it hasn't lead to people constantly demanding more and us eventually allowing every author avatar out there. Maybe a few threads asking yeah but nothing that's by any means a huge hinderance to this site.
We've made notable exceptions when it comes to allowing noncanon DB and comic characters. It again hasn't devolved into utter chaos or us letting the most obscure crap ever in.
We've made multiple exceptions to our "no author avatars" rule and it hasn't lead to people constantly demanding more and us eventually allowing every author avatar out there. Maybe a few threads asking yeah but nothing that's by any means a huge hinderance to this site.
We've made notable exceptions when it comes to allowing noncanon DB and comic characters. It again hasn't devolved into utter chaos or us letting the most obscure crap ever in.
- 11,582
- 548
I wonder why the word "FEAR" is being used here....
- 165,211
- 72,191
Well, as I replied in the other thread, the issue is that I have read virtually ALL content revision threads in this wiki, even though I do not always have anything to add, and going by my experience people tend to demand that we use exceptions as a rule quite frequently, which is hard for me to deal with.
In addition there is the following issue, that I mentioned earlier:
"Given the sheer number of Mario games, it would be extremely impractical to assign every one of them a separate tier, and also impossible to do in most cases, due to lack of proper feats."
In addition there is the following issue, that I mentioned earlier:
"Given the sheer number of Mario games, it would be extremely impractical to assign every one of them a separate tier, and also impossible to do in most cases, due to lack of proper feats."
- 11,484
- 7,685
So then why do we still allow some author avatars? Why do we still allow some non-canon characters? If making tiny exceptions here and there are truly such an issue and so many people make difficult threads, why do it at all?
Is the answer cause it's the more accurate/reliable thing to do in this cases? Is the answer cause those exceptions don't cause that much trouble? Is the answer cause being afraid of people making stupid threads is a bad reason to deny someone a rating? Cause those are all the same things that can be said about this Mario exception.
Plus how many bothersome threads do we get/risk getting out of making DB or comic revisions that clearly go against what many agree with? Since when did a fear of people making a bunch of annoying threads ever become a good reason to deny a rating?
If people don't think making separate keys is the best thing to do, I'm 100% fine with that and willing to completely concede if needed. But with all due respect at least disagree for an actual reason. Not cause we're worried of the possibility of a few silly threads get made. Which has never, ever stopped us from giving someone a rating before.
And I addressed your following issue earlier. We aren't going to bother giving every game a tier. Only like 2-4 of the most relevant showings are going to get coverage.
Is the answer cause it's the more accurate/reliable thing to do in this cases? Is the answer cause those exceptions don't cause that much trouble? Is the answer cause being afraid of people making stupid threads is a bad reason to deny someone a rating? Cause those are all the same things that can be said about this Mario exception.
Plus how many bothersome threads do we get/risk getting out of making DB or comic revisions that clearly go against what many agree with? Since when did a fear of people making a bunch of annoying threads ever become a good reason to deny a rating?
If people don't think making separate keys is the best thing to do, I'm 100% fine with that and willing to completely concede if needed. But with all due respect at least disagree for an actual reason. Not cause we're worried of the possibility of a few silly threads get made. Which has never, ever stopped us from giving someone a rating before.
And I addressed your following issue earlier. We aren't going to bother giving every game a tier. Only like 2-4 of the most relevant showings are going to get coverage.
- 98
- 19
But what would have to be the tier for each character then ?
- 32,327
- 20,215
I am sorry, Antvasima, but I agree with Ryukama. The slippery slope argument is very flawed, and he makes the most sense.
- 165,211
- 72,191
Well, it isn't flawed in the sense that members of this wiki really do regularly demand increasingly greater leniency based on previous exceptions, and I am the one who usually have to deal with it, but okay then, I seem to be outvoted.
- 1,062
- 212
I agree with Ryu.
- 1,092
- 919
Ant's slippery slope argument is not flawed. Though I agree with this revision and Mario having separate keys. We know damn well the handful of users that try to bend/get around rules due to the vagueness of said rule, just like I said on the other thread.
I read enough of the content revision and question/answers threads to know what Ant is talking about. Some ridiculous things get proposed, even if it's by the aforementioned handful of members.
And he's right. He is the one usually dealing with it. A thread that gets made when Ant normally goes to bed isn't dealt with until he wakes up. That's hours and hours of a content revision being ignored and there's 48 staff members. So if we are gonna have the audacity to poke holes in this whole thing and ignore Ant's concerns given this truth, we better back it up.
I read enough of the content revision and question/answers threads to know what Ant is talking about. Some ridiculous things get proposed, even if it's by the aforementioned handful of members.
And he's right. He is the one usually dealing with it. A thread that gets made when Ant normally goes to bed isn't dealt with until he wakes up. That's hours and hours of a content revision being ignored and there's 48 staff members. So if we are gonna have the audacity to poke holes in this whole thing and ignore Ant's concerns given this truth, we better back it up.
- 32,327
- 20,215
@VenomElite
You are probably right about this. I shouldn't have been that harsh.
You are probably right about this. I shouldn't have been that harsh.
- 1,092
- 919
Well, this falls on all of our shoulders, including myself. But that aside...
I think this is appropriate. Each sub continuity of Mario games get a key as Peach and Matt proposed.
I think this is appropriate. Each sub continuity of Mario games get a key as Peach and Matt proposed.
- 1,092
- 919
Are you reading the thread? We already established Mario has no canon but it does have continuity.NXGN said:
- 2,031
- 988
@Ryu
Technically, a variable tier isn't going against our policy in fair treatment since alot of characters in the wiki also has it but that's not really my main concern. It's really the fact by doing this, we are implying that Mario is a different incaranation among the games when he isn't. Not to mention how contradicting it is to make a tier for the Main Series and Mario Galaxy games, despite the latter being Main Series games as well.
Ant's argument isn't flawed at all. I know how people would often bring in other pages in order to argue what they propose and it's not always faulty either. There will be without a doubt people who are going to request for an upgrade or a change in pages using this page as an arguement, wether it be for consistency or a similar arguement, Master Roshi is just a rough example. People who are knowledgable in Sonic might argue about how impractical it is for Mario having different tiers among series labelled due to varying stats across the franchise but Super Sonic from the Sonic the Hedgehog series, who has fought more than one Low 2-C feat, is denied from the rating.
Technically, a variable tier isn't going against our policy in fair treatment since alot of characters in the wiki also has it but that's not really my main concern. It's really the fact by doing this, we are implying that Mario is a different incaranation among the games when he isn't. Not to mention how contradicting it is to make a tier for the Main Series and Mario Galaxy games, despite the latter being Main Series games as well.
Ant's argument isn't flawed at all. I know how people would often bring in other pages in order to argue what they propose and it's not always faulty either. There will be without a doubt people who are going to request for an upgrade or a change in pages using this page as an arguement, wether it be for consistency or a similar arguement, Master Roshi is just a rough example. People who are knowledgable in Sonic might argue about how impractical it is for Mario having different tiers among series labelled due to varying stats across the franchise but Super Sonic from the Sonic the Hedgehog series, who has fought more than one Low 2-C feat, is denied from the rating.
- 1,092
- 919
What she said.Peach-chan said:
- 1,092
- 919
They have different pages so we don't clutter up Mario's page.
- 1,092
- 919
@DinoRangerBlack
Not "different incarnations" just different keys for his most notable portrayals because otherwise he is very inconsistent, which I completely disagree with.
Not "different incarnations" just different keys for his most notable portrayals because otherwise he is very inconsistent, which I completely disagree with.
- 2,031
- 988
@Venom
I know but spectators, especially those unfamilar with the franchise, will likely believe otherwise should we arrange the pages in that format.
I know but spectators, especially those unfamilar with the franchise, will likely believe otherwise should we arrange the pages in that format.
- 1,092
- 919
You're right. Perhaps we leave a note then?
- 2,031
- 988
Likely but what should we include in the said note?
- 268
- 26
We should probably say that those keys just how Mario in his different games because his stats vary a lot, and those series all have the same single incarnation of Mario.
- 2,129
- 226
If we give this treatment to mario than this would not be fair with other characters. But DBR and Ryu make sense here
- 1,092
- 919
What other characters? Mario has no established cano therefore he is an exception. We aren't doing this for any other character when they have an established canon (DBZ, Sonic, Sailor Moon, etc). Especially since they have coherent continuity. That's the difference here.
Anyways, I must go to bed but I hope this can be resolved without causing trouble with our rules.
Anyways, I must go to bed but I hope this can be resolved without causing trouble with our rules.
- 98
- 19
Its just possibly due to inconsistency....?
- 2,129
- 226
There is some canon in Mario games such as paper mario luigi's diary but if we are putting keys in marios page the we should add every mario game: paper mario, smrpg, mario and luigi etc. In Mario's page.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
