Marvel "Upgrades"

[The_Impress]

The one's who don't have can scale to the other characters they are consistently shown to be on par with or can keep up with them on a H2H. And I don't think any marvel character is featless.

You'd be shocked.

Like which marvel characters to be precise?

Mostly folks who have specific attacks that harm Thor, like Nick Fury, Grey Gargoyle, Winter Soldier, and the like. There are also characters that have very few scalings otherwise, like Man-Thing.

Precisely, it's weird comic book characters exist without feat or consistent scaling.

Factor is moreso characters contextually being listed way lower.

This characters have specific attacks that can harm Thor so we can scale via the attacks the could harm Thor or not consider them at all of it's not consistent and some might be via hax.

This is a weird sentence structure, can you reiterate?

 

[Hellbeast]

Keep the attitude in check. You'd be the first to complain otherwise.

Excuse me? I'm not actually giving you any attitude at all here
Feel free to name an instance

Mostly folks who have specific attacks that harm Thor, like Nick Fury, Grey Gargoyle, Winter Soldier, and the like. There are also characters that have very few scalings otherwise, like Man-Thing.

I know DarkDragonMedeus has a whole thing going on with bullets and scaling so I'll leave that to him.

I'm fine with Cap's shield tho since that's consistently able to damage top tiers tho and I know a ton of Fury's stuff has no anti-feats saying they can't damage top tiers, my broader point was more about characters in the Thing's sort of situation

Your opinion. Vehemently disagree with this.

Characters having zero feats and scaling is a huge impact on profile making; it's why we don't see DCEU Lex Luthor or Lilo getting there own profiles.

While those are extreme cases we also see characters like Chupacabra and Outrun being candidates for deletion because of their lack of feats

?

Huh did not intend to send that (my bad)

Like?

• Superman (DCAU)
• Utopian (TV Series)
• Saitama
• Maximillian Pendragon
• Liebe
• John Kreese
• Ratash
• Ramona Flowers

Some I confess I'm not too knowledgeable on but I'm sure there's some cases I'm missing

We don't?

Typically it's either treated as just evidence they shouldn't scale to said character or it's just a different key entirely (I know some anime characters have the ability to unlock their power or have something actively supressing it

Because his page is very bad, yes. Likely when I was applying the revisions certain characters had garbage filemaking with "bro trust me" evidences.

Yeah I noticed; I think it was High 7-A because of a guidebook statement for years so obviously dodgy profile making

You can work to fix it.

Cool; what's your take on Ares' scaling in that case?

When I get time I could read some issues to see if he has any good hax abilities we're missing.

Seems unnecessary.

Not really; people may not read the standard tactics (which I'd note is a very optional section anyway) so a mention to the list there would be helpful and it's not like it'd be long.

A subbullet saying "Please Read the Standard Tactics for more information" doesn't bloat the page at all.

 

[The_Impress]

Excuse me? I'm not actually giving you any attitude at all here
Feel free to name an instance

I know DarkDragonMedeus has a whole thing going on with bullets and scaling so I'll leave that to him.

I mean I'm referring to explicitly special bullets.

my broader point was more about characters in the Thing's sort of situation

I don't understand your point then tbh

Characters having zero feats and scaling is a huge impact on profile making;

The point is though that they do have scaling, you're proposing said scaling is invalid completely by dropping restricted tiers. I don't think it's a good point then.

• Superman (DCAU)
• Utopian (TV Series)
• Saitama
• Maximillian Pendragon
• Liebe
• John Kreese
• Ratash
• Ramona Flowers

Some I confess I'm not too knowledgeable on but I'm sure there's some cases I'm missing

I mean... can you elaborate on these cases rq?

Typically it's either treated as just evidence they shouldn't scale to said character or it's just a different key entirely (I know some anime characters have the ability to unlock their power or have something actively supressing it

And we're treating it as latter :v

Cool; what's your take on Ares' scaling in that case?

...if I was confident in my take I would've fixed the file then and there.

Not really; people may not read the standard tactics (which I'd note is a very optional section anyway) so a mention to the list there would be helpful and it's not like it'd be long.

A subbullet saying "Please Read the Standard Tactics for more information" doesn't bloat the page at all.

Oh you mean like that.

I mean... if it's on the file and people aren't reading it, what says they'll read a note as well?

 

[The_Impress]

So summary (to remind myself what's left to be done)

• Eficiente's Doom suggestions (awaiting more input)
• Hellbeast's Thor restricted-tier removal (discussion)
• Champion's scaling (rejected?)
• General wording improvements.

 

[Teezar]

Mostly folks who have specific attacks that harm Thor, like Nick Fury, Grey Gargoyle, Winter Soldier, and the like. There are also characters that have very few scalings otherwise, like Man-Thing.

If I can get till next month, I can ask my friends for scans of this characters but I'm busy cause of my upcoming exams so I don't wanna get too serious into threads.

This is a weird sentence structure, can you reiterate?

You said some characters have specific attacks to harm Thor and I said if they are consistent then it's OK but it depends.

 

[The_Impress]

If I can get till next month, I can ask my friends for scans of this characters but I'm busy cause of my upcoming exams so I don't wanna get too serious into threads.

They're on the pages, no?

You said some characters have specific attacks to harm Thor and I said if they are consistent then it's OK but it depends.

:/

that's a nothing statement, isn't it?

 

[Antvasima]

So summary (to remind myself what's left to be done)

• Eficiente's Doom suggestions (awaiting more input)
• Hellbeast's Thor restricted-tier removal (discussion)
• Champion's scaling (rejected?)
• General wording improvements.

There is this issue as well:

A note in the main verse page that we are currently in the process of gradually revising the verse might be a good idea at least.

Doing this should be a priority to avoid an uproar.

 

[Malomtek]

Copy and paste from a recent past thread:

"Here is just one example of a casual planet level feat: Hulk blowing up an asteroid twice Earth's size with one punch.

As a side note: Mjolnir is described as being able to shatter whole planets "as easy pebbles", meaning that Thor, wielder of Mjolnir, can planetbust casually too. Again, casual planetbusting is an essential attribute of Mjolnir, and thus Thor, its wielder."

 

[Hellbeast]

I mean I'm referring to explicitly special bullets.

It kinda depends what you mean by special; if it's something like Vibranium or Adamantium it's fine but if they're just vaguely "modified" or "enhanced" then that should probably not be enough.

It also has that whole issue of bullet damaging characters they shouldn't but again, Dark's topic not mine

The point is though that they do have scaling, you're proposing said scaling is invalid completely by dropping restricted tiers. I don't think it's a good point then.

Scaling that exists solely by assuming that a holding back Thor always holds back the same amount or that characters like Hercules also hold back to a similarly massive degree.

And we're treating it as latter :v

And how many cases of it fit the latter?
Sentry, Gladiator, Hulk, Amadeus Cho and Thor can work but what about Hercules? What about Hyperion or Beta Ray Bill?
Not everyone has explicit statements that their power diminishes by massive degrees by some arbitrary external factor

Oh you mean like that.

I mean... if it's on the file and people aren't reading it, what says they'll read a note as well?

1. Standard Tactics is an optional section that isn't exactly wiki standard, it's entirely possible they might never think to check there
   1. Having a note there could certainly remind readers the section exists
   2. It'd be nice if it was an expected section but that's not where we are rn
2. It covers our bases; if you fail to read the note pointing out the Holding Back that's ultimately your fault

Copy and paste from a recent past thread:

"Here is just one example of a casual planet level feat: Hulk blowing up an asteroid twice Earth's size with one punch.

Already on the page as representing the higher end of Grey Hulk's power and Hulk varies in power because of his rage and Banner denying him his full potential.

As a side note: Mjolnir is described as being able to shatter whole planets "as easy pebbles", meaning that Thor, wielder of Mjolnir, can planetbust casually too. Again, casual planetbusting is an essential attribute of Mjolnir, and thus Thor, its wielder."

Thor still has his 4-B so that could easily come under that.

 

[LordTracer]

"Here is just one example of a casual planet level feat: Hulk blowing up an asteroid twice Earth's size with one punch.

This is already on the profiles as a feat for Grey Hulk.

 

[Confluctor]

That feat of Hulk has been calced at 4-C, 5-A, 5-B, and even tier 6.

 

[Malomtek]

This is already on the profiles as a feat for Grey Hulk.

Already on the page as representing the higher end of Grey Hulk's power and Hulk varies in power because of his rage and Banner denying him his full potential.

Thor still has his 4-B so that could easily come under that.

Wouldn't those apply to their "casual"/"suppressed" power levels or whatever we're doing with the "large island level" ratings in their profiles?

 

[Confluctor]

Btw, there is this feat of Sentry and Collective destroying a nearby moon when fighting near it. Carol could downscale from those two.

 

[Hellbeast]

Wouldn't those apply to their "casual"/"suppressed" power levels or whatever we're doing with the "large island level" ratings in their profiles?

TBH I don't even like the High 6-C stuff for characters like Thor and Hercules

There's also no reason to call it casual for Grey Hulk since iirc it's his best feat by far.

Btw, there is this feat of Sentry and Collective destroying a nearby moon when fighting near it. Carol could downscale from those two.

That could be neat tbh; where was Sentry at for that fight?

 

[Confluctor]

where was Sentry at for that fight?

If you mean mentally, terribly bad. If Cap hadn't forced him, he would have not intervened at all.

New Avengers #17

 

[Hellbeast]

Ah then this would definitely work for his "when sad" state and could scale to Ares

 

[Malomtek]

There's also no reason to call it casual for Grey Hulk since iirc it's his best feat by far.

I thought that was Green Hulk.

And even if that was Grey Hulk's "best feat by far", he still did it pretty casually. It should logically scale to Green Hulk too.

TBH I don't even like the High 6-C stuff for characters like Thor and Hercules

Where would you rather have them be?

 

[Hellbeast]

I thought that was Green Hulk.

Nah Grey

And even if that was Grey Hulk's "best feat by far", he still did it pretty casually. It should logically scale to Green Hulk too.

It does; it's just that Hulk can be far weaker then Grey Hulk depending on his emotional state.
It being casual also doesn't mean anything because it's still far and away much higher then he typically lands - ergo it's casual for a Grey Hulk at his absolute peak, not his averages

Where would you rather have them be?

Solar System - holding back imo should just mean that the character he holds back against shouldn't scale to him at all.

 

[The_Impress]

As a side note: Mjolnir is described as being able to shatter whole planets "as easy pebbles", meaning that Thor, wielder of Mjolnir, can planetbust casually too. Again, casual planetbusting is an essential attribute of Mjolnir, and thus Thor, its wielder."

Why are you equating "casual" to "restricted". Nobody has claimed Thor can't casually blow up planets.

Thor himself notes he had nearly forgotten how strong the hammer is, basic insinuation being he doesn't use it as its max, may as well average, strength nearly enough.

Not to mention, Thor has also just, smashed Mjolnir on the ground and it didn't blow up the planet, multiple times it's purely nonsensical to claim Thor has zero mastery of Mjolnir and that he somehow can't control his potency, if he is able to smash the ground to avoid collateral planetary destruction, he can smash randos without using planetary blows on them.

The Mjolnir claim is just missing alot of context, and if your insinuation is just... Thor is inept in his use of Mjolnir to the point he can't stop blowing up planets, I think basically anyone can see this is nonsense, right?

It kinda depends what you mean by special; if it's something like Vibranium or Adamantium it's fine but if they're just vaguely "modified" or "enhanced" then that should probably not be enough.

Why?

It also has that whole issue of bullet damaging characters they shouldn't but again, Dark's topic not mine

You're the one trying to argue it here :v, drop it then ig

Scaling that exists solely by assuming that a holding back Thor always holds back the same amount or that characters like Hercules also hold back to a similarly massive degree.

And how many cases of it fit the latter?
Sentry, Gladiator, Hulk, Amadeus Cho and Thor can work but what about Hercules? What about Hyperion or Beta Ray Bill?

...why isn't Beta Ray Bill just comparable to Thor again?

And as said, Hercules has insinuations present.

1. Standard Tactics is an optional section that isn't exactly wiki standard, it's entirely possible they might never think to check there
   1. Having a note there could certainly remind readers the section exists
   2. It'd be nice if it was an expected section but that's not where we are rn
2. It covers our bases; if you fail to read the note pointing out the Holding Back that's ultimately your fault

Meh. Fine.

 

[Hellbeast]

Why?

Because gunfire regularly is treated as more fatal to super powered beings then it realistically should be; characters who are at the very least in the high Gigaton range would realistically not be affected by small arms fire at all, that's basic Plot Induced Stupidity nonsense and unless stuff like Bucky's Luger has specific reasons to be scaled to the top tiers we should take it as such.

You're the one trying to argue it here :v, drop it then ig

No

...why isn't Beta Ray Bill just comparable to Thor again?

I'm not implying he isn't; I'm asking why we're assuming he holds back exactly the same amount as Thor does or that he even pulls his punches substantially.

Hell the page doesn't list any feats outside of the Surtur portal so it's a whole statistic that just has no reasoning, making it feel slapped on to what the page already said, pre holding back revision.

And as said, Hercules has insinuations present.

1. Name them
2. Prove he holds back equally to Thor
3. List feats for his "holding back" state for clarity's sake

Meh. Fine.

Good

 

[Antvasima]

A note in the main verse page that we are currently in the process of gradually revising the verse might be a good idea at least.

So, to repeat myself...

 

[Hellbeast]

So, to repeat myself...

I can see that being a decent idea

 

[KieranH10]

I agree with Ant too, that seems pretty important and not too hard of a task right now.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree completely. It’ll definitely stop people from complaining-

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to handle it please?

 

[Malomtek]

Why are you equating "casual" to "restricted". Nobody has claimed Thor can't casually blow up planets.

Thor himself notes he had nearly forgotten how strong the hammer is, basic insinuation being he doesn't use it as its max, may as well average, strength nearly enough.

Not to mention, Thor has also just, smashed Mjolnir on the ground and it didn't blow up the planet, multiple times it's purely nonsensical to claim Thor has zero mastery of Mjolnir and that he somehow can't control his potency, if he is able to smash the ground to avoid collateral planetary destruction, he can smash randos without using planetary blows on them.

The Mjolnir claim is just missing alot of context, and if your insinuation is just... Thor is inept in his use of Mjolnir to the point he can't stop blowing up planets, I think basically anyone can see this is nonsense, right?

This would be a great response if I ever made the argument that Thor couldn't control the area of effect of his otherwise planet level hammer blows.

Since I never made such an argument, you're just tilting at windmills right now.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Is somebody willing to handle it please?

Here's my note draft

"Marvel is gradually being revised with feats that are being found, so tiers such as Large Island level and Solar System level are subject to change as those whom are researching the verse find feats and get them calculated here."(insert thread I'm setting up specifically to gather feats across the verse)

 

[The_Impress]

Because gunfire regularly is treated as more fatal to super powered beings then it realistically should be; characters who are at the very least in the high Gigaton range would realistically not be affected by small arms fire at all,

No but you're saying bullets which are specialty shouldn't be counted, unless they're explicitly vibranium or adamantium.

Argue from that perspective

that's basic Plot Induced Stupidity nonsense and unless stuff like Bucky's Luger has specific reasons to be scaled to the top tiers we should take it as such.

It's modified, that's enough. We have random humans with no explicit superhuman features, only very flimsy in-verse justification, like Kingpin, at 9-A, we can have vaguely modified bullets able to harm Thor then.

I'm not implying he isn't; I'm asking why we're assuming he holds back exactly the same amount as Thor does or that he even pulls his punches substantially.

Hell the page doesn't list any feats outside of the Surtur portal so it's a whole statistic that just has no reasoning, making it feel slapped on to what the page already said, pre holding back revision.

'Kay, I reviewed abit of shit Beta Ray Bill has been in, and yeah you're right he doesn't even relevantly fight anyone in the High 6-C range, you can remove that

1. Name them
2. Prove he holds back equally to Thor
3. List feats for his "holding back" state for clarity's sake

Yeah so these are the ones that came to mind:

• Hercules claims very blatantly he wouldn't have done shit to Dragon Man if he would've just declared his surrender
• Another instance of Hercules just not going for kills, likely here "surrender" is just a bluff because iirc he doesn't kill them anyways

They're like, these weird backhanded ones claiming promises that don't happen, anf hell even situations that aren't conventional.

There are also certain really weird ones present too, that Hercules seemingly extends the durations of his fights purposely when he has the means to not (as stated in the Dragon Man scan)

This would be a great response if I ever made the argument that Thor couldn't control the area of effect of his otherwise planet level hammer blows.

Since I never made such an argument, you're just tilting at windmills right now.

What is your argument then :v

 

[Antvasima]

Here's my note draft

"Marvel is gradually being revised with feats that are being found, so tiers such as Large Island level and Solar System level are subject to change as those whom are researching the verse find feats and get them calculated here."(insert thread I'm setting up specifically to gather feats across the verse)

What do the rest of you think about this?

Also, Malomtek, please adopt a more collaborative tone. Thank you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

As for thread insert it's below. I can't think of any better way to write the note meself so I'm open to opinions on it

https://vsbattles.com/threads/open-thread-gathering-feats-for-marvel.122142/

 

[The_Impress]

Note's fine

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

I modified the note a bit:

"Marvel is currently gradually being revised based on feats that are being found, so tiers such as Large Island level and Solar System level are subject to change as those who are researching the verse find feats and get them calculated."

Where in the Marvel Comics page should we place it?

 

[AKM sama]

I don't know whether this is the right thread to post this, or if I should create a new thread for this topic. But I was talking to Zark and I think rating characters when they are holding back is not the right thing to do.

A character can hold back to any level in fear of killing a mere human, we don't and shouldn't rate them when they are actively suppressing them. My suggestion is that we should just put a note on these characters' pages (like Thor and Hulk for example) saying that they regularly hold back and fodder don't scale to them, rather than giving them a tier "while holding back" (basically whatever justification is used to give them a tier, should be moved to a note at the end of the page).

And for other characters who are solely dependent on these held-back characters, since the amount of power they are holding back is unquantifiable and inconsistent, we should just use justifications like this:

(Fought a held-back Thor who did [this feat] during the fight)

And if there is no feat performed during the fight, then we simply shouldn't scale based on that fight.

If this is derailing the thread, I will make another thread if needed.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that may be a valid point. The problem is that Marvel runs on "everybody can fight everybody, regardless of power level", which turns it all very hard to scale properly, so we are trying to figure out how to handle it.

 

[Hellbeast]

No but you're saying bullets which are specialty shouldn't be counted, unless they're explicitly vibranium or adamantium.

Argue from that perspective

No I'm pointing out that them being vaguely "enhanced" isn't remotely good enough reasoning to justify Tier 4 firearms.

It's modified, that's enough. We have random humans with no explicit superhuman features, only very flimsy in-verse justification, like Kingpin, at 9-A, we can have vaguely modified bullets able to harm Thor then.

There's a an exponentially more massive gap for 9-C (typically) weapons harming Tier 6 characters and that's ignoring the 9-A characters having objective feats to help put them in that range rather then solely scaling

Again stuff like Fury's gamma bullets are fine but stuff like the Dynamo busting RPG seemingly has no reason to be remotely that strong and it's textbook PIS that, if taken seriously, implies S.H.I.E.L.D just has Herald level standard weaponry which makes no sense at all.

'Kay, I reviewed abit of shit Beta Ray Bill has been in, and yeah you're right he doesn't even relevantly fight anyone in the High 6-C range, you can remove that

Unlock the page and I will

Yeah so these are the ones that came to mind:

• Hercules claims very blatantly he wouldn't have done shit to Dragon Man if he would've just declared his surrender

This mostly reads like "I wouldn't have had to hurt you" if you just asked me to surrendur and not "I'm currently holding back by several magnitudes just to beat the shit out of you"

• Another instance of Hercules just not going for kills, likely here "surrender" is just a bluff because iirc he doesn't kill them anyways

This is just Hercules not going for killshots; something that is a massive trope in comics because of the Comics Code Authority and if we're seriously using this as reasoning for split statistics then we'd have to do the same for all manner of heroes, even relative street tiers like Captain America and Spider-Man

There are also certain really weird ones present too, that Hercules seemingly extends the durations of his fights purposely when he has the means to not (as stated in the Dragon Man scan)

Again, ideally that's just proof Dragon Man doesn't scale to Hercules at all, not that Hercules holds his power back so much that he ends up comparable to Dragon-Man.

And for other characters who are solely dependent on these held-back characters, since the amount of power they are holding back is unquantifiable and inconsistent, we should just use justifications like this:

(Fought a held-back Thor who did [this feat] during the fight)

And if there is no feat performed during the fight, then we simply shouldn't scale based on that fight.

This actually sounds really good to me; it lets us give characters who would be "featless" stuff for powerscaling and we get rid of the "holding back" statistics

If this is derailing the thread, I will make another thread if needed.

I feel a thread talking about the Holding Back stuff on it's own could be neat but idk if we'd need to make a whole new one (especially when we're kinda debating that already) and the fact we seem to have a ton of ongoing revisions might make it hard to keep track.

I'm thinking a Conversation detailing certain topics might be good (or a Discord)

 

[KieranH10]

I agree with AKM. We dont treat any other verse like this, holding back is not a universally scaled thing, characters can hold back to varying degrees.

 

[Hellbeast]

In fairness we treat Post-Crisis DC this way but that's because Zark pushed for it iirc

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with AKM. We dont treat any other verse like this, holding back is not a universally scaled thing, characters can hold back to varying degrees.

The problem is that we almost have to give the characters some kind of variable power levels, since that is how Marvel itself consistently treats them. Otherwise we end up with too much chain scaling from fighting objectively far more powerful characters.

 

[Hellbeast]

The problem is that we almost have to give the characters some kind of variable power levels, since that is how Marvel itself consistently treats them. Otherwise we end up with too much chain scaling from fighting objectively far more powerful characters.

I mean we shouldn't; tons of verses that go on for long periods of time like Star Wars and Mortal Kombat also treat everyone as being able to fight anyone even when it makes no sense for the power scaling. Now look, I get that DC and Marvel are much longer running and much more inconsistent then most verses out there but still; we shouldn't be slapping a varies onto everything in complete contrast to every other verse we have.

 

[KieranH10]

The problem is that we almost have to give the characters some kind of variable power levels, since that is how Marvel itself consistently treats them. Otherwise we end up with too much chain scaling from fighting objectively far more powerful characters.

I know this sounds like a leap...

But if scaling is a major problem with the verse, can't we just disregard it to a degree. If characters are so inconsistent with one another that it's a large problem for the verse, then the proper scaling chains should be applied.

Whether that means not many characters genuinely scale to one another or not, if we're scaling characters in general, then we arguably should scale them to most of the feats they perform.

If it's to the point where, for example, Spiderman tiers are somewhat consistently shown as contending with tier 5s, then obviously something needs to be done for both parties, but that should affect the entire verses rules equally, not just groups of heroes that generally compare, because that's all of Marvel, as you say.

Tl:dr
Basically I personally think we should separate most character from their scaling chains, or at least make their chains wider tier-wise (tier 5s may vary from moon to planet level for example, but a note on their profiles to help stop confusion)

This would allow us to use genuine feats that characters achieve on their own more commonly, which is where writers definitely intend for characters to be placed, and still have them at very least, somewhat comparable to each other, while still showing differences in power.