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Mash Burnedead and the Hero Hunter [Mash vs Garou]
- Thread starter AnAverageUsername
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There is so much wrong with this that it is quite laughable.
Not only does Mash dodging Doom's attacks not mean that he's superior to Doom's Analytical Prediction due to that not being how Analytical Prediction is scaled, but you've never even once showed that Doom has Analytical Prediction in the first place. Being able to dodge and counter attacks from people does not equate to Analytical Prediction. Even in the sequence you send where he was fighting Orter and Rayne, Doom never once showcased Analytical Prediction.
The Analytical Prediction page says this:
The specific wording, "scarcely better than what's achievable in real life," means that simply predicting the attacks of opponents is not enough to get this ability. It has to be above what is possible in real life.
It also states that at the lowest level, Analytical Prediction "[relies] on physical tells and strategy to stay ahead of opponents."
Simply having a strategy like Doom had (forcing Orter and Rayne into one shot so that he can attack them at once) is not enough to have this ability, otherwise tens if not hundreds of characters on the wiki would have Analytical Prediction due to them using their brain and enacting plans mid-battle. This is just intelligence. For example, in One-Punch Man, Flashy Flash was able to set up Hellfire Flame and Gale in a situation where he could attack both of them at the same time. He was able to do this with his speed and strength.
Similarly, Doom was specifically noted to be pressuring them with his speed and strength to push them into the area he wanted to, rather than reading their physical cues (such as muscle contractions and whatnot) to avoid attacks like what is specifically needed to have Analytical Prediction.
We literally see Doom blitz Orter and Rayne several times, with Orter even noting his speed. Doom being able to "monke" them is not due to Analytical Prediction, but due to his sheer speed advantage, allowing him to easily dodge and react to their attacks. Him being able to push them into the area he wanted to was due to his strength, which is equally supported as my speed argument was above. With single attacks, Doom was able to send both Orter and Rayne flying into each other so that he can attack them, with them calling him "too strong," with the context pointing to them referring to his physical strength rather than his predicting abilities.
As for them being able to predict invisible attacks, this means nothing and has no correlation to being able to react to attacks that can speed blitz them. That entire sub-point of Doom being able to completely overwhelm the predictions of someone who can predict to invisible attacks when we see Orter dodge a strike from him, albeit with difficulty.
This entire paragraph is completely useless. It fails to prove Doom's alleged Instantaneous Counter ability above the 'massively lowend' 20000-100000 projectiles from Ryoh's danmaku due to the lack of evidence that the attack used to destroy the country and army, spanning several hundred kilometers, was the same as the one used on Doom. The latter barely seems to consist of 100 projectiles and reaches a range of around 10 meters. Even if I were to agree that Ryoh sent out a lowball estimate of '20000-100000' projectiles, there's no proof that Doom's countering ability would be effective against Analytical Prediction to begin with. This is because Doom's ability is stated to counter any technique he has seen, but Analytical Prediction cannot be seen. As a result, Doom's counter ability would not apply to Mash's Analytical Prediction.
Considering that Doom's response to danmaku was merely to hit it away, and this appears to be his only feat of instantly countering attacks he's seen before, it seems that Doom's ability might have limitations in its usage rather than him being unable to counter Mash's Analytical Prediction due to its potency.
Ignoring that none of the scans in this paragraph work, giving Mash's debuffed attack a speed is not a solid point to build the basis of this point on, especially considering that it's a completely arbitrary number. Sticking with over 92 times makes much more sense.
The force of Mash's attacks being the same regardless of their speed means nothing to Garou's ability to deflect them. You simply saying that they're strong doesn't prove that Garou would be unable to deflect his attacks, unless this ability grants Mash resistance to attack reflection?
Mash's feat against Cell War is not Stealth Mastery. He simply blitzed him. Same as for his showing against Orter. He literally just took off his clothes and dodged before he could notice what he did. That's a speed feat.
As for against Margarette, this isn't Stealth Mastery either. He simply dug underground where the Sound Waves were slower so that he wouldn't be hit by the attack. It's weird that you'd even add this to your argument considering Mash didn't even hide. He immediately attacked as soon as he went underground.
The last example of Mash attacking Zero is extremely misleading and I feel as though you left out context on purpose for the sake of your point. Zero was in the middle of fighting and finishing off Wahlberg when Mash attacked him. Saying that because Zero was able to sense Mash and Domina's fight from far away, and yet was unable to sense Mash coming to attack him implies that his senses are passive, which isn't supported by anything specifically, which means it's just an assumption. Zero even expressed interest in Mash and Domina's fight, implying that he would be watching, even further showing that there's nothing really supporting his senses being passive.
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Garou's Analytical Prediction is nothing short of above the realm of what is possible in reality. Garou uses the opponent's line of vision, posture, and center of gravity to predict their next moves up to 12 moves in the future. His Analytical Prediction also works on opponents that are hundreds (142.5x) and even thousands (5044.3x) faster than he is, allowing him to dodge, deflect, and land attacks against them without much issues.
Garou's senses are also superior to the likes of Iaian, Bushidrill, and Okamaitachi, who were each able to deflect against over 33333 attacks with their eyes closed via sheer reflexes while simultaneously protecting allies in the floor above them. We know the three Samurai had to attack each individual strand of hair as that was literally stated to be the case. This only gets massively amped by Abandonment/Awakening Breath.
Expanding on this, Garou's body can move on its own both offensively and defensively, so any counterattack would either be countered, dodged or parried.
Garou is also able to understand the flow of energy of any technique/attack and adopt it into himself after experiencing or looking at it once, which extents further than simply copying movements and Martial Arts techniques, but it also helps him learn how to counter said techniques and movements perfectly. This is shown best against Bomb, where while sleeping, he was able to counter Bomb's WCIF by doing the technique in reverse.
The techniques Garou copies become better than the original as soon as Garou makes them his own, and before you claim that since this was CFM Garou, it doesn't apply to HH Garou, this is not true. Garou said that any attack he copies, which was confirmed to be something he had when he was a human as well, gets honed to perfection. Garou being able to perfect copied styles prior to monsterizing is supported several times as well shown when he subconsciously created a technique combining both Bang and Bomb's Martial Arts style that the two of them could not recreate.
Anything Mash does will not only be seen by Garou 12 steps prior, but he would be able to copy whatever he does, make it better, counter Mash's version, and the evolve even further in terms of strength and speed, which happens passively during combat, but speeds up exponentially when pushed.
I've read Mashle, several times. I was caught up when it had only 3 chapters. It's not dubious as to my how this works.
As for Garou not being able to reflect everything, where's your proof for this? Unless Mash can replicate this, this, or this, then I see no reason why Garou would be unable to continuously reflect Mash's attacks.
You can not compare sleeping and blocking the brains control of the body to attacking pressure points/nerves/arteries, shutting them down alongside joints of the body which provide movement.
Mash's spine can send signals to the body part, but it will not move due to those nerves not being usable and due to the joints in those areas being disconnected. Spinal Reflexes do not stop Garou's pressure points and joint-targeting attacks, due to the signals sent being the same as the signals sent from the brain, with the only difference being the source.
A better example of Garou's pressure points in action is in his fight with Metal Bat, where he was able to make his body completely useless after his Figthing Spirit wore off.
Not only has Garou's evolution been shown to be exponential, but it's also been shown to grow extremely fast as well, allowing him to grow from being blitzed, to being unable to get tagged by the same attack mere moments later. This is without his already passive growth. On top of this, Garou also has Fighting Spirit. Fighting Spirit allows the user to go from not being able to deal damage to the opponent, to being able to oneshot them after being knocked around for a little bit. Fighting Spirit also allows the user from attacks that the make the brain register as death, making them come back strong enough to fight against said attacks. No matter how strong Mash gets, Garou would be able to match him and get even stronger faster than he would.
All of this to say that Garou would 100% be able to surpass Mash in a battle of evolution.
Stamina
Garou vs Tanktop Master: After being attacked while off-guard by Tanktop Master and getting a bloody nose as a result, Garou gets hit with a Tanktop Tackle, spraying blood everywhere. Despite this, Garou was able to stand up smiling, seemingly unphased. He then takes a Tanktop Punch to the torso, which seemed to either break his ribs which resulted in the shattered pieces stabbing his organs or just rupture internal organs entirely as seen by the amount of blood Garou leaked out from his mouth. Continuing to smile, Garou gets hit by another Tanktop Punch, resulting to even more blood being spilled. By this point the fight, Garou has already lost several liters of blood, but despite this, he was still able to retain his agility and speed as if nothing happened.
Garou vs Golden Ball and Spring Mustachio: Added onto the injuries above, Garou suffers getting a hole pierced through his shin alongside a stab wound on his hand. Garou shrugs both of these wounds off and easily beats Spring Mustachio and Golden Ball. Right after this, he faces Saitama and gets oneshot, possibly breaking his collarbone.
Garou vs Metal Bat: While continuing to suffer from the injuries he sustained with his fights against Golden Ball & Spring Mustachio and Tanktop Master respectively (several broken bones, injury to organs, 2 stab wounds, severe blood loss), Garou was able to fight against Metal Bat and dodge every single attack, showing that his speed and agility were unaffected.
Garou vs Heroes: Before the start of the fight, Garou had already gotten brutalized by Watchdog man, oneshot by Saitama and was in such a condition where he had a fever, couldn't properly move, and where even laughing hurt him due to constantly fighting since his battle against Tanktop Master. Despite this, Garou was able to jump around with ease, dodging attacks from 8 people without stopping. Throughout the early stages of the fight, Garou took a few attacks including a cut on his face, a gunshot wound to the leg (meaning that both of his legs had piercing wounds on them), a gash on his arm, broken ribs, and two arrow wounds. Garou was already sick, had several broken bones and other internal injuries, suffering from blood loss, but on top of that, he lost even more blood and was poisoned. Even though he was a mess, Garou continued to not only dodge the Heroes' attacks, but even overwhelm and overpower them with his sheer speed, skill, agility, and strength. After defeating all but one of the Heroes, he was able to defend against over 8000 bullets from Death Gatling's Minigun, with the skin of his hands being completely torn up.
Garou vs Genos, Bang, and Bomb: Right after defeating the Heroes (like literally 2 pages after), Garou had to fight Genos despite still being extremely injured, sick, and poisoned, and while he was on the backend, Garou was still able to combat against Genos and dodge his attacks. Bang interrupted and then started to absolutely break Garou down. Bomb joined in and they started beating Garou up even more. Despite this, Garou was still able to shock Bang and Bomb with his strength, replicating the power of Tanktop Master's Tanktop Blow and swing around a tree.
Garou vs Royal Ripper and Bug God: While a couple of hours passed since he fought the Heroes and Genos, Bang, and Bomb, Garou was still clearly injured. Before his fight with Royal Ripper and Bug God, Garou got oneshot by Saitama (for the third time). During the fight Garou got slashed everyone across his body and was left to bleed out. After waking up, Garou was seemingly unaffected by his injuries and went rushing towards the Monster Association.
Conclusion: Garou beats Mash with low difficulty. Mid at the best case scenario for Mash.
Garou's senses are also superior to the likes of Iaian, Bushidrill, and Okamaitachi, who were each able to deflect against over 33333 attacks with their eyes closed via sheer reflexes while simultaneously protecting allies in the floor above them. We know the three Samurai had to attack each individual strand of hair as that was literally stated to be the case. This only gets massively amped by Abandonment/Awakening Breath.
Expanding on this, Garou's body can move on its own both offensively and defensively, so any counterattack would either be countered, dodged or parried.
Garou is also able to understand the flow of energy of any technique/attack and adopt it into himself after experiencing or looking at it once, which extents further than simply copying movements and Martial Arts techniques, but it also helps him learn how to counter said techniques and movements perfectly. This is shown best against Bomb, where while sleeping, he was able to counter Bomb's WCIF by doing the technique in reverse.
The techniques Garou copies become better than the original as soon as Garou makes them his own, and before you claim that since this was CFM Garou, it doesn't apply to HH Garou, this is not true. Garou said that any attack he copies, which was confirmed to be something he had when he was a human as well, gets honed to perfection. Garou being able to perfect copied styles prior to monsterizing is supported several times as well shown when he subconsciously created a technique combining both Bang and Bomb's Martial Arts style that the two of them could not recreate.
Anything Mash does will not only be seen by Garou 12 steps prior, but he would be able to copy whatever he does, make it better, counter Mash's version, and the evolve even further in terms of strength and speed, which happens passively during combat, but speeds up exponentially when pushed.
Attacks having instantaneous force does not mean that Garou would not be able to deflect his attacks. I'm not sure why this would be the case and how you came to that conclusion. Not only does Garou have superior AP than Mash, but WSRSF has been shown to be able to deflect attacks that are vastly superior to the user's AP, shown here, here, and here.
I've read Mashle, several times. I was caught up when it had only 3 chapters. It's not dubious as to my how this works.
As for Garou not being able to reflect everything, where's your proof for this? Unless Mash can replicate this, this, or this, then I see no reason why Garou would be unable to continuously reflect Mash's attacks.
Don't create limiters that don't exist in the source material. Muscle density doesn't stop pressure points from being targeted nor does it stop joints from being attacked. Mash has lower durability than Garou has AP, meaning this point is irrelevant.
Mash's was able to do this via Spinal Reflexes. Specific cues that cause the spinal cord to send signals to different parts of the body, resulting of said body parts moving independent of signals from the brain. When those signals are sent, body parts move just like they would if the signals were sent from the brain.
You can not compare sleeping and blocking the brains control of the body to attacking pressure points/nerves/arteries, shutting them down alongside joints of the body which provide movement.
Mash's spine can send signals to the body part, but it will not move due to those nerves not being usable and due to the joints in those areas being disconnected. Spinal Reflexes do not stop Garou's pressure points and joint-targeting attacks, due to the signals sent being the same as the signals sent from the brain, with the only difference being the source.
This is a terrible argument. Tanktop Maser was vastly superior to Garou stats-wise at this point of the story, including durability. Mash does not have this same advantage, so comparing the two does not make sense.
A better example of Garou's pressure points in action is in his fight with Metal Bat, where he was able to make his body completely useless after his Figthing Spirit wore off.
I'm not really too sure what this paragraph is for. Is it showing the potency of Mash's Reactive Power Level? If so, then that's cool, but Garou's is superior.
Not only has Garou's evolution been shown to be exponential, but it's also been shown to grow extremely fast as well, allowing him to grow from being blitzed, to being unable to get tagged by the same attack mere moments later. This is without his already passive growth. On top of this, Garou also has Fighting Spirit. Fighting Spirit allows the user to go from not being able to deal damage to the opponent, to being able to oneshot them after being knocked around for a little bit. Fighting Spirit also allows the user from attacks that the make the brain register as death, making them come back strong enough to fight against said attacks. No matter how strong Mash gets, Garou would be able to match him and get even stronger faster than he would.
All of this to say that Garou would 100% be able to surpass Mash in a battle of evolution.
Stamina
Garou vs Tanktop Master: After being attacked while off-guard by Tanktop Master and getting a bloody nose as a result, Garou gets hit with a Tanktop Tackle, spraying blood everywhere. Despite this, Garou was able to stand up smiling, seemingly unphased. He then takes a Tanktop Punch to the torso, which seemed to either break his ribs which resulted in the shattered pieces stabbing his organs or just rupture internal organs entirely as seen by the amount of blood Garou leaked out from his mouth. Continuing to smile, Garou gets hit by another Tanktop Punch, resulting to even more blood being spilled. By this point the fight, Garou has already lost several liters of blood, but despite this, he was still able to retain his agility and speed as if nothing happened.
Garou vs Golden Ball and Spring Mustachio: Added onto the injuries above, Garou suffers getting a hole pierced through his shin alongside a stab wound on his hand. Garou shrugs both of these wounds off and easily beats Spring Mustachio and Golden Ball. Right after this, he faces Saitama and gets oneshot, possibly breaking his collarbone.
Garou vs Metal Bat: While continuing to suffer from the injuries he sustained with his fights against Golden Ball & Spring Mustachio and Tanktop Master respectively (several broken bones, injury to organs, 2 stab wounds, severe blood loss), Garou was able to fight against Metal Bat and dodge every single attack, showing that his speed and agility were unaffected.
Garou vs Heroes: Before the start of the fight, Garou had already gotten brutalized by Watchdog man, oneshot by Saitama and was in such a condition where he had a fever, couldn't properly move, and where even laughing hurt him due to constantly fighting since his battle against Tanktop Master. Despite this, Garou was able to jump around with ease, dodging attacks from 8 people without stopping. Throughout the early stages of the fight, Garou took a few attacks including a cut on his face, a gunshot wound to the leg (meaning that both of his legs had piercing wounds on them), a gash on his arm, broken ribs, and two arrow wounds. Garou was already sick, had several broken bones and other internal injuries, suffering from blood loss, but on top of that, he lost even more blood and was poisoned. Even though he was a mess, Garou continued to not only dodge the Heroes' attacks, but even overwhelm and overpower them with his sheer speed, skill, agility, and strength. After defeating all but one of the Heroes, he was able to defend against over 8000 bullets from Death Gatling's Minigun, with the skin of his hands being completely torn up.
Garou vs Genos, Bang, and Bomb: Right after defeating the Heroes (like literally 2 pages after), Garou had to fight Genos despite still being extremely injured, sick, and poisoned, and while he was on the backend, Garou was still able to combat against Genos and dodge his attacks. Bang interrupted and then started to absolutely break Garou down. Bomb joined in and they started beating Garou up even more. Despite this, Garou was still able to shock Bang and Bomb with his strength, replicating the power of Tanktop Master's Tanktop Blow and swing around a tree.
Garou vs Royal Ripper and Bug God: While a couple of hours passed since he fought the Heroes and Genos, Bang, and Bomb, Garou was still clearly injured. Before his fight with Royal Ripper and Bug God, Garou got oneshot by Saitama (for the third time). During the fight Garou got slashed everyone across his body and was left to bleed out. After waking up, Garou was seemingly unaffected by his injuries and went rushing towards the Monster Association.
Conclusion: Garou beats Mash with low difficulty. Mid at the best case scenario for Mash.
- Garou wincons:
- More skilled
- Has better evolution
- Has better endurance
- Stronger
- More durable
- Will become far faster over time
- Has better Analytical Prediction to the point where he can see any attack Mash does several seconds before he even does it
- Has better senses
- Pressure Points
- Joint Targeting
- Body Destruction
- Ability and Technique Copying and Mastering
- Insta-Countering Ability
- Better Instinctive Actions
- Attack Reflections up to 2x the original force
- More experienced
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In one year I will read
And in ten I will reply
- 9,808
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Who let them cook a full course meal
- 9,808
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- #89
Just go for incon, that's always the default "don't know who to choose" option
- 9,808
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I need be respectful
I need be respectful
I need be respectful
Lets start with this
But it is. I mean, I don't see what its that hard to get. Due to Mash being able to read Doom's attacks perfectly made him basically untouchable and even was capable to fool Doom despiste his speed boost, someone who himself also has Analytical Prediction. If Mash was able to predict his attacks and moves so easily while Doom wasn't capable to do anything but slash constantly until he hits the dark it would obviously mean that Mash is superior to Doom in terms of Analytical Prediction. Thats like, common sense. Even at the begin of the battle between both it was show that it would be a skill fight. So I really dont see your point here, especially since it has more base to scale Mash above Doom then Garou above Iaian.
For Doom it is. He is explicitly predicting the attacks to create some way during the battle to counter perfectly the technique of the opponent (Doom even start to claim to be capable to counter a move before it have even get close to him), with characters like Rhyo saying that he was trying to make his attacks as unpredictable as possible so Doom woundn't counter him, something that proved to be useless since he was capable to anticipate it at the end of the day. So I really can't see your point.
I don't see how being able to make fools of two characters (Both with genius intelligence to extraordinary
Batman has similar reason to justy his Analytical Prediction btw
Dont use this as a justification to make a Analytical Prediction less impressive. This isnt a good reason at all
At no point I stated that they were comparable or that Doom wasn't immensely stronger than Rayne and Orter, what I said was that he was able to predict the course of a battle without difficulty. Not only that, but youre forgoting some parts of the fight, such as the begin, where both start fighting separately, one to the left and the other to the right, with Doom starting to hold back his slashs against Orter, dodging two and blocking one, and then holding Rayne and throwing him straight (With Doom holding his attacks again), and then Rayne as much as Orter find out in the X created by Doom, something that neither of them excpected. And thats it, he predicted their course. Just because they stated that Doom is "too strong" doesn't mean that he haven't predicted anything, it just mean that he's... Strong. Also, should be noted Rayne was in midair with his swords, what make him move pretty wierd to say, and thus would make hard as shit to calc the exact moment that Doom would need to make Rayne hit the X seconds after had finished with Orter.
I honestly dont care much about this feat, but that still wound count as skill at the end of the day even if you say that its just intelligence
Excpet that Doom was clearly limiting his attacks to not to be fatal, so Orter dodging Doom's slashs doesn't mean by any means that he's more skilled, especially since he is stated to be way less skilled than Doom. Not only that, but Doom is comparable to Rhyo, who by himself its leagues above Orter in all categories.
Rhyo literally used a danmaku with several hundred of kilometers across a country against random monsters that were destroying the city and attacking the population, monsters that can be annihilated so easily by Rhyo that he barely needs to use any real attack, just a general spell is more than enough, but for some reason he would hold back against someone who can literally desimate all the main forces of the world and take two of the most powerful Divine Visionaries that were being buffed by Finn while not using his full power? The same one who can "surpress a god"? No, that wouldnt make any sense, and you know that. Rhyo himself says that Doom is insanely dangerous since the family of everyone is in the sake of this war and battle. Not only that, but Hajime (Author of the manga) is a human, he coundn't draw that many lasers in each painel because it would be a waste of time. Not only that, but Hajime doesn't care abou proportions and sizes. He can even make a small room with barely 10 meters looks like a endless place in less than some seconds. Dude literally made a giant with hundred of meters become just some dozens of meters tall after some pages, or even more impressive: Teleported the giant from the inside of the coliseum to outside of the walls of the school in one page just because he thought that it would be better for the plot.
I really could create a scientific document explaining how disproportionate Mashle's art is and how Hajime ignores the most obvious things simply to make the story cooler, like making clothes regenerate at moments after the character was pierced numerous times just because
Not to mention that Rhyo has the incredbly skill to make one single laser to be more hard to deflect and predict than his whole danmaku if he increases his accuracy and then turn every laser of his danamku with the same accuracy. So even if there was less lasers it wouldnt mean that it was a easy danmaku to deflect if compared to the one that he used to destroy the monster army. But as I explained, woundn't make sense for Rhyo to limit his numbers against a key enermy that shows danger to his family
There's a lot of proof actually. Rhyo for exemple is capable to turn his accuransy better and better due to his accelerated development, making his lasers almost impossible to deflect and predict. Not only, but Rhyo can also make his attacks impossible to anticipate, something that Doom can still adapt and counter. Rhyo's creating unpredictable attacks, aka "Resistance to Analytical Prediction", isn't something that anyone can see or feel.
Sorry
Nah bro, Mash literally lost all his speed and wasn't capable to finish a punch in 2 pages. Its not something arbitrary, its common sense. We can't say that Mash is moving at subsonic speed or even at average human speed. I for exemple could calculate Mash's speed as much as I can calculate Abyss's
If we assume that Mash arm is around 0.62 cm and say that it took 5 seconds for him to finish the punch, his speed would be around 0.124 meters per seconds.
Making the speed gab way above 45895.1612903 times.
The problem is, for Garou to reflect any attack from Mash he must touch his fists, what would be a problem, since even the slightest touch would already unleash all the damage in Garou. Despite the Fist of Following Water being supernatural for real life terms, its still try to replicate the logic that every attack or movement has a flow, and thus you can simple change the direction of it as a rock do to a river. However, Mash strenght doesn't have a flow, its something explosive and instantaneous, you can't compare as if its something as coherent as water. Thats why I said its hard to tell if Garou would be really capable to reflect Mash's movements, since its basically the same as try to reflect some real explosion. I know that Bang reflected Rover's lasers and shit, however, these lasers doesn't unleash instantaneous force (They start small and explode when they hit something, which means it's not instantaneous, otherwise what would come out of Rover's mouth would be a direct explosion [Something it can do btw, but this one was never reflected], not a laser), otherwise it would be a big inconsistency with the Fist of Following Water logic, and even so, this Garou is far way to be as capable as Bang.
Also, Bang reflecting Rover's lasers just show that a slight touch is not enough to trigger the explosion
You're forgoting a important detail: Wizards can sense Mash's presence passively. If Mash is walking normally behind you a wizard will still be able to sense him. If Mash is in an unknown place a wizard will still be able to sense him. If Mash is in your way you will sense him. Its a similar case with wizards sensing other wizards, where they are capable to feel people getting close even from far way. So for Cell War, he should have sensed Mash getting close, something that didn't happen, and no, its not speedblitz, both are comparable to each other in speed (Yes, he can outrun the discs, but that doesn't mean that Mash is faster than Cell's senses, otherwise the battle would have ended way quicker). Also, to add context about Cell's fight, Mash couldn't get close to him, so he chosed to attack from behind. And for Orter, is basically the same thing, he didn't sensed Mash hiding behind him.
Same for Margarette. She didn't expected Mash to have escaped or to be under her. This came as a surprise to her and to all the other wizards who were in the place. So yeah, its Stealth Mastery, it doesn't matter if his main goal was to not take damage from Margarette's sound waves since he showed stealth while doing it.
And seeing how even Metal Bat could snake into Garou I really can't see how Mash coundn't the same thing but better
No
And I feelt ofended
I use this argument way before this thread as support evidence
As I showed previosly, wizards can sense Mash passively. It doesn't matter if Zero was finishing off Wahlberg or not. Doom for exemple was doing the same thing against Mash and he still sensed powerful forces getting close, so yeah, irrelevant. Besides, Zero also has enhanced senses as he is able to act normally despite having no eyes, ears or nose. So either he is someone with incredible senses or his Extrasensory Perception is insanely good.
Thats not something impressive at all, its just Garou explaing how basic Analytical Prediction works.
Yeah, no, I disagree with this now. If you look at the picture, Garou is not predicting 12 moves in the future, he is predicting 12 possible moves that will happen. He is not literally seeing 12 moves ahead, he is seeing the 12 possibilities of King's starting moves. So after a better view at this now, the feat is pretty much "bad" . And to make it wrost, Garou states that he was at his best when doing it
About Garou vs Saitama: Why are you using this as an argument? Is a completly different key. Like, you as a main OPM supporter should know pretty well that both can't be compared by any means. The Garou fightning Saitama is the same one that states to be the pinnacle of all evil and have perfected his own style, but for some reason you want to compare him with the one that could barely fight any decent Class S hero? (
About Garou vs Genos: Thats not a "I can keep up agaisnt someone more than 100 times faster than me", its a "I'm fightning someone comparable to me". Like, isn't that obvious? This here Garou managing to block an attack from Genos who was centimeters away with a kick, something that automatically disproves the notion of Genos being hundreds of times faster since Analytical Prediction is nothing about making you block attacks more than tens of times faster than you at close range, thats impossible, is about you anticipating the opponent's moves, but that doesn't make you dodge the impossible. It's like saying that just because someone is able to know the exact second that the trigger of the gun will fire and the position in which the shot will hit will allow him to deflect at close range a bullet that has already been fired and is in midair.
There's also Garou dodging Genos blast at point-blank twice.
Besides, just check Garou's profile:
Yeah, no.
I want to ask why are assuming that Garou at this point have better senses than Iaian, Bushidrill, and Okamaitachi. Like, at this point all of them are statistically stronger than 7-C Garou, so even with scaling chain wouldn't be possible. Especially considering that you stated that I can't rank Mash above Doom in Analytical Prediction simply because one can't hit the other, so I suppose for Garou to be above Iaian, Bushidrill, and Okamaitachi, characters to who Garou have never directly interacted with, would have a pretty good reason
That's not impressive by any means honestly. I mean, its for us, real life users, but not for ficction. Each attack of the three already destroys a dozen to hundreds of threads. Simply because is stated that they will destroy all, each one, does not mean they are doing it one by one. If I drop, for example, a nuclear bomb to destroy a small town with 10000 people, it means that I have killed each of them, but not one by one
Bro why are you scaling Bang's skill to this Garou. Bang literally destroys.
The "dodged" scan doesn't work for me
Anyway, thats not impressive for Mash
Mash can for example feel the vibrations of the ground to which are moving at more than 6 times the speed of his reaction without any problem, and using this to dodge a attack from a character way faster than him, with such feat needing incredible senses. He can also know when an attack will be able to potentially kill him instantly before the opponent even makes a real move, as well as knowing when a character possesses a hidden power that if awakened could end up making the battle more difficult. He can even train while sleeping. In Mash fight against Abel, he showed to be capable to sense imminent danger and can react to this while his brain was out of control of his body, with his consciousness and senses also being trapped within a dream. Mash can even use his senses to detect the exact instant some threads have touched his clothing and act instantly as a reaction, with such threads being invicible and impossible to detect.
There more things, but this is more than enough
Sure, Garou copy skills, something impressive, but I doubt that he is gonna copy anything from Mash, since his techniques are completly out of anything that Garou have faced. He never copied a technique that allows him to move FTE even at his perspective. He never copied movements that simply ignore the laws of physics and logic. He never copied a technique that allows him to fly. And so on; But theres no great or special technique for Mash to be copied, what make him impressive is his general skill such as Analytical Prediction, something that Garou haven't show to be capable to copy. Not only that, but Mash states that anything that have been used against him previosly become old and useless against him. And about the "can create any counter", considering that not even Doom could create one for Mash, I doubt that Garou is gonna be capable to do anything remotely close.
Not this key, but even so, I don't see how this is gonna be useful agaisnt Mash. Theres almost nothing to copy
WHY THE **** ARE YOU USING ******* COSMIC ****** GAROU
Simply because Garou is still able to do the same things when human doesn't mean he is able to do them to the same extent as when a monster, and don't even dream of using Cosmic Garou. That doesn't even make sense, it's like saying that because Mash has been able to control his muscles and body since the first arc he's able to do it to the same extent he did in the last arc. Thats just a não, no, negative, nonpositive, nono. Yes, he can copy, but as good as his monster state or ******* cosmic mode and after all his battles and hardwork? Come on, that's just silly. His copying skills are clearly improved throughout the story, since his First of Following Water was pathetic at first when compared to Bang's even after training with him for years and years, and just in his monster form he showed to have reached Bang's level
Live footage of Garou tryining to copy Mash and his body control:
Haven't you already talked about it? Even so, Im gonna just copy paste my argument
Because he is not an unbeatable god? Most of his enemys aren't skilled at all, and he being capable to deflect all Mash's attacks no matter what is a bit ridiculous. I mean, you just showed the times when he reflected the attacks, but what about when he couldn't? Such as when Bug Gog hitted him twice with nothing special but a punch, or when Garou was bitted by Rover, or when Garou needed to be pierced by Royal Ripper to have clear hit, or maybe when he was hitted by a random monster, or when he was punched numerous times by Genos, and so on. Probabily there are more cases, but for now these are the ones that comes to mind.
Mash's muscles are more than capable to stop pressure point, the difference in power between both is not insane enough to ignore the superior density of his body. To use pressure points you need to apply pressure. Since they have a small AP difference, Mash's desity will not allow to Garo apply any pressure. Just try to pressure your own skin with your finger and then try to do the same thing with something made out of steel; You will not have the same result.
This is the same reason of why Mori vs Mash was something possible.
Yeah, I can't, but the main point is the spinal reflex. They are based on the nervous system and act automatically. Nothing we know about Garou's pressure points elaborates whether he has the ability to limit the nerves of a living being.
I will not even going into this
Why is Tanktop Maser stronger? Because he was defeating Garou until he decided to use First of Following Water? Garou was clearly making a theater during the whole fight. Not only that, but Garou took numerous hits from Tanktop and could even damage Tanktop with nothing but a punch, so I can't see why both wouldn't be at least comparable.
Also, we have almost no information on how powerful Garou's pressure points are. The only information we have is this panel, nothing else. We know that it can potentially stop body movements, but to what extent? We know that the one who mentioned it was Tanktop Maser, which means that his movements were limited. However, when we look at the battle with Garou we see that Tanktop Maser can move, albeit with difficulty because of the potency of the attacks and pressure points. So I can't how Mash, someone who can fight after being cut in every possible part of his body, couldn't move after such attacks
Wat
No
Metal didnt pass out because of the pressure points, but because of the damage done to his body. Not counting the damage that happened before the battle with Garou, Metal Bat was punched, puched again, elbow, kicked, pressure points, again, reflected attack into him, took the damage of his own attacks directly in the stomach. And thats it. The main reason he collapsed, as you can see in the scans, was the last damage, where he received dozens of his own attacks in the stomach. The pressure points had some to none infuluence. You realize this by seeing that what made Metal finally fall was nothing from Garou, but a minimal extra damage caused by his sister.
I'm literally showing you Mash being capable to keep up agaisnt enemys that can one shot him, can use invicible magic, use weapons, and all you got is "Reaction Evolution"? For real?
I will not argue about reaction evolution because I have never said that Mash is above Garou in this category, I just have a big problem about the "Fightning Spirt".
No, Garou doesn't have the same Fightning Spirt than Metal Bat. That doesn't even make sense. Bat's evolution is completely temporary, unlike Garou's, which is permanent. Metal Bat, as you have showed, can envolve after being hit some times and then oneshot the enemy, something that have never happen with Garou. Like, never. Also, Metal Bat's Fightning Spirt even surprise Garou with such a quick evolution. Not only that, but I need to remember you when Metal Bat had becomed somewhat comparable to Monster Garou after some fraction of seconds thanks to his Fightning Spirt (Aka, from High 7-C to High 6-A)? Yeah, both aren't equal in Fightning Spirt, with your evidence being pretty bad, its just Garou doing a comparison
Meh, thats "useless". We're talking about a Mash using less than 0.0001% of his power. If Garou evolve Mash will just unleash more of his true power to keep up.
Nothing to say here. You simply listed his feats
I will try to elaborate my main reasons for why Mash would beat Garou
Addressing Garou putting Mash down, I'm not sure if WSRSF is gonna be all useful against Mash, not just because of the instantaneous force but because it will not be enough to stop Mash. Dude is literally a tank. Mash have already dealt with opponents who can reflect attacks, such as Carppaccio, who can passively transfer any damage to the opponent. And yet, Mash have punched and kicked Carpaccio, hitting even vital points such as the neck, while also being stabbed in several parts of the body. Later Mash uses a barrage of punches against Carpaccio to test the limit of his magic, while constantly suffering the impact of his own attacks, and Mash still doesn't show any sign of pain. And after all that, Carpaccio's wand evolve and start to stab even more Mash. He basically had to constantly dodge attacks while being stabbed and receiving the damage of his own attacks again, and yet he doesn't prove to be tired.
Yes, Garou reflecting attacks is extremly useful to avoid damage, but that isn't gonna be useful in offensive terms. We are talking about the same guy who could still fight for some seconds without his heart and could even survive up to minutes to hours. The same guy who could fight without problem even after losing his spine and good part of his stomach. The same guy who fought non stop for four days against knights that could one shot him, with some of them being capable to use invicible magic without any food or water (He just recived it after defeating 10 knights). The same guy who is slashed at every possible part of his body and face it as a bad tuesday. The same guy who is pierced numerous times by spikers larger than himself and continues to fight just fine. And these are just some of the insane stamina feats, I'm not even using the ones from characters that he scales above, such as Dot and Lance, who can fight nonstop against Orter for one week without food, just a bit of water and with no sleep, with the damage that they took being as heavy as to be pierced in several parts of the body. Garou simply won't be able to put Mash down. No character from Mashle was capable to do so and is not Garou who is gonna be the first one.
As explained above, the single way that I can see for Garou to finish off Mash would be with is reaction evolution (If he evolve to like, Low 6-B lol), something that I also don't think that is gonna be that useful as well. Because it doesn't matter much if he become tens of times stronger, Mash still can potentialy put him down. He defeated Cell War that was using his Diamond Skin, the same skin that can took his own attacks just fine, 6-B attacks, all this while Mash was High 6-C, making the difference be higher than 64.54 times. And no, Garou won't evolve that much, such thing never happened in his fight against Royal Ripper and Big god, or against Watchdog Man, or in his fight with Rover, and so on. I can't even tell if Garou is gonna evolve just a bit since most of Mash's battles end in just some moments even when the oppoent as some boring magic that make him unable to get close. And as I said before, suprise attacks works just fine with Garou, as seen here, here and here, so Mash, someone who have used suprise attacks several times with ironically insane stealth skill (lol), could use it just fine and grap Garou, ending the duel.
Garou isn't gonna simply anticipate Mash's every move, like, I think I have explained why Garou's Analytical Prediction isn't that impressive as you make it sound like, just as an exemple, he can't see 12 moves ahead but 12 possible moves that you are gonna do next. Its not as if it is gonna be a MUI versus Jiren vibes, but I really think that is gonna be a hard thing for Garou to have a clear hit in Mash, since even Doom, someone with some insane Analytical Prediction, couldn't hit Mash at close range combat at all even after his 2x speed buff. And of course, Mash has other reflex and dodging feats, such as being able to avoid all the attacks of an experienced swordsman even though many of his movement were limited (He basically could only look straight), or dodging four homing attacks while in midair.
About AP, yeah, Garou is somewhat stronger, but like, literally irrelevant, its barely a 2 times difference. Not only that, but Mash's feat is extremly casual, he's basically just moving his hand and generates that amount of potency, while the feat that Garou downscales its from Suiryo, to which he took extreme effort to perform. Besides, I'm not even sure if we can say that Garou is really stronger since we're talking about a Mash who is using less than 0.00001% of his real power. He is just limiting himself to make the fight somewhat fair and not just him destroying Garou, so I could even argue that Mash can simply extend his power to Garou's exact level of power, something thats its far from being impossible since the AP difference is basically irrelevant either way, so Mash unleashing just a bit more of his real strenght is more than enough.
Talking about Garou copying Mash, I don't think that this is gonna work. Mash main skill is body control, insane body control, nothing that HH Garou have ever copied get close to what Mash can do, such as Mash FTE speed boost. And about Garou creating some counter against Mash, Mash has basically the same technique, where he basically sees any attack that have ever been used against him as old and useless, a similar thing that happens with Doom, who can instantanly counter any technique that he sees once. Doom, who at this point you should know pretty well, is somewhat comparable in skill to Mash, if not inferior, and seeing how both seems to have a similar method and technique, I think its fine to scale such capacity to Mash, but I will not make this as something concrete. Either way, Garou's counter will not be useful as Mash have dealt with someone who can do the same thing but much better.
And thats it, I guess. Almost sure that I have forgoted something, but I'm (almost) sure that this more than enough
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and with that, I can no longer vote here in good conscience knowing that I haven't read the arguments
goodbye world
goodbye world
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And I will not continue the debate
Only able to respond so quickly because I had nothing better to do in a city where I know no one, but I don't want to waste my time with it anymore
I suppose I have explained everything and its more than enough
Only able to respond so quickly because I had nothing better to do in a city where I know no one, but I don't want to waste my time with it anymore
I suppose I have explained everything and its more than enough
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How
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Took me half an hour to read all that, LoK COOKED
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Also I keep forgetting I'm the one who made this thread
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It took me 5 hours to write it all
And nobody have given a opinion
AnAverage is a real one at least
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Counted
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Bump
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Bump
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But if you really want some atention go to the OPM thread or something
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I did
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So how is this thread going to upgrade Boros again?
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Well if you vote in this thread, the chances of Boros being upgraded to High 6-A+ will he upped by 0.00001%!
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inconclusive.
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Countedinconclusive.
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bro it cant be incon coz one of them is gonna take the L
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Then why did you vote incon
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