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Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade

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You are assuming SSJ Black is stronger than SSG.
Because he is? Why would Vegeta waste his SSB when he could have beaten black in SSG before he went into the ROSAT?
When we see he isn't able to keep up with Vegeta switching SSG to SSB. SSJ Black is unquantifiable above his previous SSJ level of power.
Because Vegeta literally got that strong, as that is the most logical reason? Pre ROSAT, ssj black was definitely stronger than SSG vegeta, I mean, why would you argue otherwise?
 
You are assuming SSJ Black is stronger than SSG. When we see he isn't able to keep up with Vegeta switching SSG to SSB. SSJ Black is unquantifiable above his previous SSJ level of power.
Literally, we saw SSJ Black punching Pre-ROSAT SSB Vegeta so hard that he spat out blood, and at that point Vegeta was fighting with the intention of killing Black
 
Yeah but with my stance it’s cause SBG isn’t a transformation but more like a “stage”. Their base form became a lot stronger because of SSG thanks to the promotional manga. I also agree with your stance cause Toppo did that same thing with his bout with Goku
 
Didn't Beerus straight up lie about having to use that much power against SSG Goku, something that Whis implies at the end of the arc? I mean Whis straight up compared Goku and Vegeta's power to Beerus' as being like a tree next to Beerus' castle, and even recently with DB Super Hero Beerus is still seen as being stronger then Goku and Vegeta.

So if SSG was apparently seen as a big deal to Beerus, despite him still being superior to Goku, then I think he was bullshitting Goku to motivate him into fighting more.
He only lied about using 80% of his power. The statement I refer to when Goku drops out of SSJ and him regretting it. So Beerus was lying regretting it and wanting to keep it a secret? No, if you stack SSB, Kaioken and all the power increase, zenkais and MUI top of it. In my opinion MUI is 100x SSB and SSB is 50x SSG and ToP SSG Goku is far more powerful than BoG SSG. Lets assume Goku got only 10x stronger from BoG to ToP. So ToP MUI Goku would 50,000x stronger than BoG SSG as opposed to 1,000,000,000x with SSJ1-3, SSG, SSB and MUI stacking on top of base SSG. 50,000x makes far sense with the statement.
 
Literally, we saw SSJ Black punching Pre-ROSAT SSB Vegeta so hard that he spat out blood, and at that point Vegeta was fighting with the intention of killing Black
It doesn't matter as Vegeta training didn't increase his power and again in the U6 power. Vegeta used less than 1/10 of SSB power and we don't know how much weaker than 1/10 he was. But even if you say that. It gets contradicted in the following arcs as mentioned by Damage.
 
Given how different the manga version is than the Anime version, I am mostly fine with the pre-Goku Black saga parts, but.
Here's what the potential chain scaling changes look like:
Note: Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 1x

Beginning of Super (Manga)​

  • As a Super Saiyan alone Goku believed he could take on Kid Buu, who his Super Saiyan 3 Buu Saga self couldn't defeat. Vegeta is comparable to him - 1x
    • Base Goku and Vegeta are 1/50th Super Saiyan - 0.02x
    • Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta are 2x Super Saiyan - 2x
    • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 8x

Pre-Goku Black Zenkai​

  • Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku - 8x
    • Base Trunks is 1/100th Super Saiyan 2 - 0.08x
    • Super Saiyan Trunks is 50x base - 4x
  • Goku Black is superior to Super Saiyan 2 Trunks - 8x
    • Super Saiyan Goku Black is 50x base - 400x
  • Post-Gravity Training Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta can fight Super Saiyan Goku Black. Goku is comparable to him - 400x
    • Base Goku and Vegeta are 1/100th Super Saiyan 2 - 4x
    • Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are 50x base - 200x
    • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 3,200x
Everyone beyond this value is 2-C, due to Goku Black's base finitely back-scaling from his Super Saiyan self, who Post-Zenkai can stomp Training Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Post-Gravity). With Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Post-RoSaT) being able to overpower Goku Black's Super Saiyan Rosé form (His version of SSB) which would make him and Goku's base stronger than Goku Black's base, thus them, and anyone who scale to them, are 2-C.
I agree with this take above regarding when 2-C scaling should start and that their may be more ToP characters in the scaling chain as a result of this.
 
It doesn't matter as Vegeta training didn't increase his power and again in the U6 power. Vegeta used less than 1/10 of SSB power and we don't know how much weaker than 1/10 he was. But even if you say that. It gets contradicted in the following arcs as mentioned by Damage.
Pre-ROSAT SSB Vegeta was struggling against Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black, and the latter grew even stronger after Zamasu was healing him a second time and unlocking SSR, overpowering SSB Vegeta even harder. Post-ROSAT SSG Vegeta was able to easily keep up with SSR Black's movements and react to his attacks fast enough to switch to SSB to blitz and overpower Black. Vegeta clearly grew in power, you are batlanty ignoring what was shown in the manga just because you don't believe the Post-Black Saga characters being 2-C in Base Forms for whatever reason
 
Pre-ROSAT SSB Vegeta was struggling against Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black, and the latter grew even stronger after Zamasu was healing him a second time and unlocking SSR, overpowering SSB Vegeta even harder. Post-ROSAT SSG Vegeta was able to easily keep up with SSR Black's movements and react to his attacks fast enough to switch to SSB to blitz and overpower Black. Vegeta clearly grew in power, you are batlanty ignoring what was shown in the manga just because you don't believe the Post-Black Saga characters being 2-C in Base Forms for whatever reason
All of that is about power utilizing like Jiren. That's why SSR Black was shocked about SSB Vegeta power and yet he was supposedly stronger than SSG in SSR. If that were the case, he would one shot SSB Vegeta even after the training. Unless you think Vegeta got over a thousand times stronger, which is never implied and contradicted by Goku going SSB against Toppo and than being called "rivals a GoD". Yet nothing about rivals a GoD in base or SSJ1-3 when he fought Toppo. Why because it's simply all about how you utilize SSB not about becoming thousands of times stronger.
 
It doesn't matter as Vegeta training didn't increase his power and again in the U6 power. Vegeta used less than 1/10 of SSB power and we don't know how much weaker than 1/10 he was. But even if you say that. It gets contradicted in the following arcs as mentioned by Damage.
No. This is NOT the case. Vegeta got a Senzu Bean mid fight with Black and was STILL losing.

Edit: JUST to cover my bases. Vegeta was at max power. There was no nerf.
 
I think we would need more evidence that Vegeta trained hard enough that his base form become Low 2-C in the Future Trunks Saga beyond just backscaling from his performance against Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

Remember that Goku did not go through a training session in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber; he just trained to learn the Mafuba, so you'd be arguing that Vegeta went through a huge power increase that Goku did not.

What seems more likely is that Vegeta's method of insta-switching between God and Blue gave him the edge to catch up with Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.
As I said before, the Base Forms inevitably become 2-C at some point, if it is not during the second half of the Black Saga, then it is during the Universe Survival Saga, if it is not during the Tournament of Power, then it is during the Super Hero Saga
 
As I said before, the Base Forms inevitably become 2-C at some point, if it is not during the second half of the Black Saga, then it is during the Universe Survival Saga, if it is not during the Tournament of Power, then it is during the Super Hero Saga
I agree they definitely become it at some point, but I don't think it can be prior to the Tournament of Power because of the Goku vs. Toppo fight.

For the people who believe the upgrade to 2-C happened during the latter half of the Future Trunks Saga for Vegeta; when did the upgrade happen for Goku?
 
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Yeah but with my stance it’s cause SBG isn’t a transformation but more like a “stage”. Their base form became a lot stronger because of SSG thanks to the promotional manga. I also agree with your stance cause Toppo did that same thing with his bout with Goku
.
 
I agree they definitely become it at some point, but I don't think it can be prior to the Tournament of Power because of the Goku vs. Toppo fight.

For the people who believe the upgrade to Low 2-C happened during the latter half of the Future Trunks Saga for Vegeta; when did the upgrade happen for Goku?
Low 2-C? You mean 2-C for the base forms right, or am I confused
 
I agree they definitely become it at some point, but I don't think it can be prior to the Tournament of Power because of the Goku vs. Toppo fight.

For the people who believe the upgrade to 2-C happened during the latter half of the Future Trunks Saga for Vegeta; when did the upgrade happen for Goku?
Dende stating "Goku reached god level" is most likely a reference to UI, since at that point UI Goku isn't leagues below Beerus and them not getting massively stronger anymore. So I don't base Goku reach BoG SSG Goku level at any point. Also we have Piccolo saying "SSB Goku is far stronger than he was previously". If base Goku is on or surpassed SSG, surely we would have a similar statement like Piccolo, I think.
 
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image.png

Meme aside, I'm a-okay with this revision's proposals.
 
For the people who believe the upgrade to 2-C happened during the latter half of the Future Trunks Saga for Vegeta; when did the upgrade happen for Goku?
Considering Goku and Vegeta are comparable to each other when they're both extremely tired out in Base in the ToP, bare minimum there. Likely before then, since usually Goku and Vegeta are directly comparable to each other as SSBs before each arc. Especially since PSSB Goku exists in Black's Arc and Vegeta had to catch up and get PSSB himself in between then. Vegeta even claimed he was the stronger of the two due to Goku's mastery of SSB.

Though this directly conflicts with your interpretation of the ToP Expo Fight.
 
Considering Goku and Vegeta are comparable to each other when they're both extremely tired out in Base in the ToP, bare minimum there. Likely before then, since usually Goku and Vegeta are directly comparable to each other as SSBs before each arc. Especially since PSSB Goku exists in Black's Arc and Vegeta had to catch up and get PSSB himself in between then. Vegeta even claimed he was the stronger of the two due to Goku's mastery of SSB.
But Goku didn't train and Goku is equal when he uses SSB at full power. Again showing it was about how SSB was used like the U6 Tournament and the manga states several times they don't get massively stronger.
 
Considering Goku and Vegeta are comparable to each other when they're both extremely tired out in Base in the ToP, bare minimum there. Likely before then, since usually Goku and Vegeta are directly comparable to each other as SSBs before each arc. Especially since PSSB Goku exists in Black's Arc and Vegeta had to catch up and get PSSB himself in between then. Vegeta even claimed he was the stronger of the two due to Goku's mastery of SSB.

Though this directly conflicts with your interpretation of the ToP Expo Fight.
True. There could be a way that we end up balancing both interpretations; such as Vegeta's God/SSB forms in the Future Trunks Saga got a boost, but both Goku's and Vegeta's base forms don't get an increase until at least the Tournament of Power or later in order to be consistent with the Toppo fight.
 
But Goku didn't train and Goku is equal when he uses SSB at full power. Again showing it was about how SSB was used like the U6 Tournament.
SSB in the Tournament only occurred like that due to transforming in and out, and due to the fact it loses max power quickly.

However, in Black Arc this is directly combated by Vegeta getting a Senzu Bean. He was at EXACTLY max power when he challenged SSJ Black again, and he got sat back down. Black Zenkai'd again, getting even STRONGER, and then turned SSR. So the training Vegeta did had to also increase strength (obviously), but Goku as a PSSB was at the raised level he needed to be to fight Merged Zamasu. I'd say it was a Zenkai, but the Manga versions of them can't Zenkai anymore (until they suddenly regain the ability via Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego...), so there's either an increase in power via training the Mafuba or using SSB in that way improves you leaps and bounds, without actually increasing the form, like how SSJ Grade 4 did in the Cell Saga.
 
I mean SS Vegeta can fight base Broly, who can contend with ultimate Gohan who is obviously 2-C for fighting the Gammas. Broly does not improve in between the end of his fight with Vegeta and the start of his fight with Gohan
 
We still gotta wait until that Solar Kamehameha un-descaling thread gets made so then we can get proper values for the characters
 
As has been mentioned before, post-Zamasu heal Goku Black would start the chain of characters being 2-C anyway, as SSJ Goku Black clapped SSB Vegeta and would be 50x his base.

In addition, I'm not entirely convinced of some of the evidence, given that SSG being vastly above SSJ3 doesn't really prove anything on its own. Even a 2x gap can canonically result in a stomp in Dragon Ball, so a good chunk of this evidence really doesn't hold up when taking that into account.

The Resurrection F point, which seems to be the largest crux of this argument, doesn't exactly hold up either. If your interpretation was the case, why would Super Saiyan God ever come back as an actually used form? Since, in that case, it would not actually provide any boost. The whole "god-like Saiyan" thing, just like in the anime, is a matter of having that level of power and then being able to go beyond that. Given that this promotional material also very strongly follows the movie and anime versions of the arc, their base forms being 2-C would make the most logical sense.

I was initially going to be neutral, but having typed all this, I actually talked myself into another stance. I disagree with the OP
 
The Resurrection F point, which seems to be the largest crux of this argument, doesn't exactly hold up either. If your interpretation was the case, why would Super Saiyan God ever come back as an actually used form?
The fact that SSJ God does come back as a regularly used form supports my point; it shows that God power is never something permanently used as an amp to their base and is still a relevant power that they can use.

Since, in that case, it would not actually provide any boost. The whole "god-like Saiyan" thing, just like in the anime, is a matter of having that level of power and then being able to go beyond that. Given that this promotional material also very strongly follows the movie and anime versions of the arc, their base forms being 2-C would make the most logical sense.
If they were permanently using "God-like Saiyan" as their base, then they would never use their normal Super Saiyan forms, since the promo mateiral you're referring to states that a "God-like Saiyan" using Super Saiyan would go Super Saiyan Blue.
 
As has been mentioned before, post-Zamasu heal Goku Black would start the chain of characters being 2-C anyway, as SSJ Goku Black clapped SSB Vegeta and would be 50x his base.

In addition, I'm not entirely convinced of some of the evidence, given that SSG being vastly above SSJ3 doesn't really prove anything on its own. Even a 2x gap can canonically result in a stomp in Dragon Ball, so a good chunk of this evidence really doesn't hold up when taking that into account.

The Resurrection F point, which seems to be the largest crux of this argument, doesn't exactly hold up either. If your interpretation was the case, why would Super Saiyan God ever come back as an actually used form? Since, in that case, it would not actually provide any boost. The whole "god-like Saiyan" thing, just like in the anime, is a matter of having that level of power and then being able to go beyond that. Given that this promotional material also very strongly follows the movie and anime versions of the arc, their base forms being 2-C would make the most logical sense.

I was initially going to be neutral, but having typed all this, I actually talked myself into another stance. I disagree with the OP
It should also be noted that when Trunks went SSJ2 at the start of the fight, Goku DID commend him on having significantly increased his power. Which you could interpret being the commendation on reaching cosmic strength that Damage felt was lacking. I just wanted to point it out as I scroll through the Manga for scans.
 
It should also be noted that when Trunks went SSJ2 at the start of the fight, Goku DID commend him on having significantly increased his power. Which you could interpret being the commendation on reaching cosmic strength that Damage felt was lacking. I just wanted to point it out as I scroll through the Manga for scans.
The only comparison Goku gives is that he exceeded Gohan's strength back in the Cell arc; which is not any kind of comparison close to reaching Super Saiyan God level.
 
SSB in the Tournament only occurred like that due to transforming in and out, and due to the fact it loses max power quickly.

However, in Black Arc this is directly combated by Vegeta getting a Senzu Bean. He was at EXACTLY max power when he challenged SSJ Black again, and he got sat back down. Black Zenkai'd again, getting even STRONGER, and then turned SSR. So the training Vegeta did had to also increase strength (obviously), but Goku as a PSSB was at the raised level he needed to be to fight Merged Zamasu. I'd say it was a Zenkai, but the Manga versions of them can't Zenkai anymore (until they suddenly regain the ability via Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego...), so there's either an increase in power via training the Mafuba or using SSB in that way improves you leaps and bounds, without actually increasing the form, like how SSJ Grade 4 did in the Cell Saga.
Yes, Vegeta ate a Senzu Bean and fought SSJ Black again at full power, but I think it's a Inconsistenty, because Goku explains it as "Vegeta storing SSB and letting it explode when needed". If he could easily said "Vegeta got massively stronger" which doesn't make sense as he needs to switch from SSG to SSB. Why would he train to get stronger than rely on a weaker form? Also Goku black noticed no difference in Vegeta and Vegeta didn't disagree. Than he goes SSG saying "I need this form to defeat you" as a reference to what Goku did during the U6 arc. To me the whole SSJ Black vs SSB Vegeta exchange is Akira Toriyama being messy.
 
True. There could be a way that we end up balancing both interpretations; such as Vegeta's God/SSB forms in the Future Trunks Saga got a boost, but both Goku's and Vegeta's base forms don't get an increase until at least the Tournament of Power or later in order to be consistent with the Toppo fight.
Also, I don't know how this would work? The SSG and SSB forms are amplifications of the Base Form still, despite their Divine Nature. They don't grow separately from their base states.
 
Also, I don't know how this would work? The SSG and SSB forms are amplifications of the Base Form still, despite their Divine Nature. They don't grow separately from their base states.
Well, we've seen that the usage of Blue can vary as Vegeta's usage of it in the Universe 6 Saga was weaker than normal despite his base form not being any weaker than normal. And Goku mastering Super Saiyan Blue's output allowed him to amplify Super Saiyan Blue's power without increasing his base form either.
 
The fact that SSJ God does come back as a regularly used form supports my point; it shows that God power is never something permanently used as an amp to their base and is still a relevant power that they can use.
Not necessarily. The anime also brought back SSG and that's evidently not th case, since the anime has the direct statement of Goku absorbing that power into his base form.

Even the Battle of Gods movie is indicative of this, as Goku after absorbing that power struggled against Beerus's Sphere of Destruction in his base form. Then, he briefly re-entered SSG and completely destroyed it.
If they were permanently using "God-like Saiyan" as their base, then they would never use their normal Super Saiyan forms, since the promo mateiral you're referring to states that a "God-like Saiyan" using Super Saiyan would go Super Saiyan Blue.
Again, that's not necessarily the case anymore. Even in the anime, that's not the case anymore as Goku can still use that level of power and go into lower Super Saiyan forms.

I'd also like to note that the manga has - especially recently - heavily leaned more toward the anime scaling-wise. Base and SSJ Gohan, and Base Piccolo, are able to briefly contend with the Gammas, who have the same statement of being on par with Goku and Vegeta, for instance.
 
Yes, Vegeta ate a Senzu Bean and fought SSJ Black again at full power,
This.
...but I think it's a Inconsistenty, because Goku explains it as "Vegeta storing SSB and letting it explode when needed".
Is an entirely separate fight to this. Vegeta only gets that explanation when he goes into the RoSaT, so there's no mechanism for which Vegeta was getting beat back in their first fight except raw stats.
If he could easily said "Vegeta got massively stronger" which doesn't make sense as he needs to switch from SSB to SSG. Why would he train to get stronger than rely on a weaker form?
The problem with this is Vegeta literally REQUIRES a power boost to pull this manuever off. His SSG form has to be enhanced enough to where he can REACT to SSR Black. His SSB form has to be enhanced enough for him to DAMAGE SSR Black. And full power SSB Vegeta struggled against SSJ Black Pre-Second Zenkai. After his Zenkai, Black grows EVEN FURTHER as a mere SSJ, and then applies SSR on himself to get even stronger. There's no conceivable way for Vegeta's strategy to work without a DECENT power amp to make the actual reacting and damage he's inflicting work...at ALL.
Also Goku black noticed no difference in Vegeta and Vegeta didn't disagree. Than he goes SSG saying "I need this form to defeat you" as a reference to what Goku did during the U6 arc. To me the whole SSJ Black vs SSB Vegeta exchange is Akira Toriyama being messy.
Black never said that. He even says Vegeta got faster. And acknowledges that Vegeta's outputting abnormal strength. This is in the midst of the fact Vegeta is just using normal SSB for each of these movements in flickers. (Unknown to the audience). So Vegeta DID increase in power.
 
Not necessarily. The anime also brought back SSG and that's evidently not th case, since the anime has the direct statement of Goku absorbing that power into his base form.
Anime being inconsistent as hell doesn't interest me; this is for manga only.

Even the Battle of Gods movie is indicative of this, as Goku after absorbing that power struggled against Beerus's Sphere of Destruction in his base form. Then, he briefly re-entered SSG and completely destroyed it.
Same for the movie. As I pointed out, the events in the manga are very different to the movie and anime.

Again, that's not necessarily the case anymore. Even in the anime, that's not the case anymore as Goku can still use that level of power and go into lower Super Saiyan forms.
It is definitely the case according to the scan we use on the profiles. And again, who cares about the anime? It's not relevant here.

I'd also like to note that the manga has - especially recently - has heavily leaned more toward the anime scaling-wise. Base and SSJ Gohan, and Base Piccolo, are able to briefly contend with the Gammas, who have the same statement of being on par with Goku and Vegeta, for instance.
Only way that can make sense is if the Gammas were heavily suppressing themselves as the difference between base Gohan and Ultimate Gohan should not be tiny, and Ultimate Gohan is on par with the Gammas. From what i recall, SSJ Gohan stood no chance of beating Gamma 1. Also not really a concern of thise thread either way.
 
.

I'd also like to note that the manga has - especially recently - heavily leaned more toward the anime scaling-wise. Base and SSJ Gohan, and Base Piccolo, are able to briefly contend with the Gammas, who have the same statement of being on par with Goku and Vegeta, for instance.
The gammas were sandbagging at the start tho, Gohan needed ultimate to fight on par with gamma 1, and gamma 2 was wiping the floor with boosted piccolo until he unveiled his new form


but imo, the manga didn't have the Saiyans absorbing the power onto Base thing, and while the RoF hinted at that, the following arcs quickly dropped the idea of blue being their normal super Saiyan, the anime showed that base Goku kept his power when he faced monaka-beerus and pushed him further than he did in BoG, the manga never really showed anything

IMHO, it's the safest assumption to have their base forms at 2c from the black arc as there is clear proof there
 
Anime being inconsistent as hell doesn't interest me; this is for manga only.


Same for the movie. As I pointed out, the events in the manga are very different to the movie and anime.


It is definitely the case according to the scan we use on the profiles. And again, who cares about the anime? It's not relevant here.
I care, because you're presenting things that would be problems for every form of DBS, not just the manga. So, I'm explaining how they wouldn't be problems. The idea that a god-like Saiyan has to go SSB isn't exactly true, clearly. And the anime and manga follow the same general script.
 
The gammas were sandbagging at the start tho, Gohan needed ultimate to fight on par with gamma 1, and gamma 2 was wiping the floor with boosted piccolo until he unveiled his new form


but imo, the manga didn't have the Saiyans absorbing the power onto Base thing, and while the RoF hinted at that, the following arcs quickly dropped the idea of blue being their normal super Saiyan, the anime showed that base Goku kept his power when he faced monaka-beerus and pushed him further than he did in BoG, the manga never really showed anything

IMHO, it's the safest assumption to have their base forms at 2c from the black arc as there is clear proof there
Objectively speaking, base forms should be 2-C in the Goku Black Arc, yes. But, the arguments against it being that way earlier don't hold up to me. Simple as that.
 
I care, because you're presenting things that would be problems for every form of DBS, not just the manga. So, I'm explaining how they wouldn't be problems. The idea that a god-like Saiyan has to go SSB isn't exactly true, clearly. And the anime and manga follow the same general script.
This is perfectly explained by the anime just being inconsistent and/or badly written. If the anime has its own internally inconsistent issues, then that doesn't affect a thread focused on just the manga.
 
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