[MCU] Some AP Updates

[RoTt35]

Casket of Ancient Winters
Currently, the Casket of Ancient Winters scales from this common calc at High 6-B+, however that's only for freezing the atmosphere, while freezing the surface/crust is High 6-A and the entire planet (to the core) is Low 5-B. The Casket has the following statements about its power:

• Has the power to send an entire world/planet into an apocalyptic ice age
• Has the power to cause instant and never-ending winters, and could be used to take over the Nine Realms
  
• According to the script, it would have laid waste to all the Nine Realms. And the novelization states that it would have been used to turn all the realms into frozen ice lands, and had to be locked for the safety of all Nine Realms
  
• And a variant of Loki threatened to use it to reduce Earth to ash and ice

The Nine Realms includes planets like Earth, but also Muspelheim (a Dyson sphere around a star) and Nidavellir (a neutron star). Freezing a star can range from High 6-A to 5-A+ and up to Low 4-C. And well, if the Casket can freeze a star even minimally, I guess it should have enough range and cold to freeze to the planet's core. Regardless, I don't know which would be the best end to choose, but I think it should definitely be higher than the current one it scales

L&T Characters
From past threads, we considered than the two Celestials in Omnipotence City shouldn't be comparable to the highest feats performed by those from Eternals (like creating stars and being galaxy-sized), which is fine since the two are featless and we don't know how powerful they are. But at the very least the two Celestials should be High 5-A at bare minimum since that's how they're born, if so I think it would be fair to upscale the L&T characters from their current 5-B+ tier to High 5-A

Odin's Creation
Currently, Odin creating constellations is tiered as 4-B, which is incorrect since such feats are either 4-C (if the stars were created/moved one by one) or 4-A (if all the stars were created at the same time). Therefore, his Creation tier should be updated accordingly to either end

Some Speed Stuff
I think the speed of Dormammu and Alioth should be changed from Subsonic to Unknown, since it doesn't makes any sense that characters we've never seen in their full might on screen and who can affect/consume infinite-sized universes , with the former essentially having a multiverse as his body and the latter having "Stated to have instantly devoured entire branched realities" as a justification for his current Subsonic speed. Also, it seems that when Alioth was upgraded from "At least 2-A, possibly Low 1-C" to just Low 1-C, his durability was forgotten to be updated as well, so it should be changed to just Low 1-C too

• Extra: Vibration Manipulation (Can vibrate her weapons and cause a whole mountain to rumble) for Hela, also her Class M LS should have an "at least" before since she upscales from Thor who already has that

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Makes sense. Which end for the constellation feat do you think is most appropriate?

 

[darkphantom9805]

The celestial thing we know exactly how strong they are the unborn Tiamut gave Agatha the power to trade blows with Arishem even kingo said any celestial can take on Arishem

Kingo: Arishem is coming. It would take the power of another Celestial to stop him.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

The celestial thing isn’t even true according to the what if episode every single celestial is on the same level as even the unborn Tiamut gave Agatha the power to trade blows with Arishem

Kingo: Arishem is coming. It would take the power of another Celestial to stop him.

That's a valid point, at least for celestials in that timeline. How are are we that it would be usable for cross scaling, though?

 

[darkphantom9805]

That's a valid point, at least for celestials in that timeline. How are are we that it would be usable for cross scaling, though?

There’s a grand total of 0 evidence it’s any different to the main timeline especially since we actually have cross scaling on some profiles people just don’t want to accept that the celestials really aren’t that special and aren’t much different than gods like Thor Zeus and others

 

[Hellbeast]

I feel calculating the casket freezing a star somehow would be really good, not sure about timeframe though

 

[ArkhamDC06]

There’s a grand total of 0 evidence it’s any different to the main timeline especially since we actually have cross scaling on some profiles people just don’t want to accept that the celestials really aren’t that special and aren’t much different than gods like Thor Zeus and others

I agree with the lack of differences between Celestials from different timelines but there's still nothing to suggest Celestials aren't different from gods

 

[darkphantom9805]

I agree with the lack of differences between Celestials from different timelines but there's still nothing to suggest Celestials aren't different from gods

the celestials are called gods over and over both in the movie and by numerous WoG they are directly stated to be gods heck Thor legit in the movie says this

Thor: Welcome to the Golden Temple, kids. This is where the most powerful creator gods in the universe hang out.

And what do celestials do as their main job they create things

 

[Isaacbobanka]

I feel like the 4-A option of the star creation makes more sense as in the clip we see Odin create all at the same time/once he slam down his staff.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

the celestials are called gods over and over both in the movie and by numerous WoG they are directly stated to be gods heck Thor legit in the movie says this

Thor: Welcome to the Golden Temple, kids. This is where the most powerful creator gods in the universe hang out.

And what do celestials do as their main job they create things

It's been discussed before, we can't make an upgrade that big based simply on concept arts or indirect words, we need actual feats that says and/or shows (preferably both) "Thor can directly harm beings who can create galaxies". Besides, nobody is saying Celestials aren't gods but even then, not all gods are on the same level even when they're "the most powerful" since most powerful can just mean more powerful than the rest but still not the absolute top. Not to mention Thor doesn't attack Celestials in the movie. In short, we wait for possible stuff in Doomsday.

Anyway, any news about Brand New Day? MCU has been quite dry for a long time now except for Born Again (thankfully, Invincible and the Boys were there to satisfy my first for superheroism. Not in the same way but still)

 

[darkphantom9805]

It's been discussed before, we can't make an upgrade that big based simply on concept arts or indirect words, we need actual feats that says and/or shows (preferably both) "Thor can directly harm beings who can create galaxies". Besides, nobody is saying Celestials aren't gods but even then, not all gods are on the same level even when they're "the most powerful" since most powerful can just mean more powerful than the rest but still not the absolute top. Not to mention Thor doesn't attack Celestials in the movie. In short, we wait for possible stuff in Doomsday.

they literally say those celestials are the exact same category as the other gods as the temple that’s clear as day bro Zeus straight up said omnipotent city is a secret place only known to the gods huh you know who appeared to this secret place the celestials I wonder why maybe because they aren’t any different than gods like Thor or Zeus and they showed up just like their fellow gods did

Zeus: I am afraid I cannot allow that. This is a secret place known only to the gods.

Also we already have actual feats a god not even a noteworthy gods showed they can do celestial tier feats

Thor not fighting them is irrelevant as Zeus and them aren’t low level gods Zeus is constantly described by Thor and multiple statements to be the top dawg to have Supreme rule and is at the pinnacle of god hood the implication is clearly that they are the top gods

Thor in the film itself did not mention celestials as part of his team despite the fact that they are residents of omnipotent city hang out there and despite the fact Thor knows what the celestials are he actually said beings of celestial origin when referring quill meaning the celestials are not some big secret nobody knows about they are considered gods no different than the others

Anyway Zeus was scared gorr would find their location meaning despite having two celestials there he is not sure he would be safe if gorr found them meaning the two celestials can’t be trillions of times stronger than the gods which makes sense with what we are told that the celestials are gods just like Thor and Zeus and makes sense because gorr could kill the gods and celestials are gods

As for doomsday I’m not sure how good the visual feats will doom is most likely just going to be scaling until he gets his GoD form

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Neutral on the Love & Thunder characters section

Agree with everything else, I think High 6-A Casket & 4-A Odin star feat works best for each

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Neutral on Ancient Winters

L&T characters proposal makes sense to me.

I think Odin's creation would be 4A as the YouTube video shows them being born from the same energy (?) going into the sky.

The Speed and Durability part also makes sense.

Although I'm not sure, do we not allow scaling speed via Size?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Currently, the Casket of Ancient Winters scales from this common calc at High 6-B+, however that's only for freezing the atmosphere, while freezing the surface/crust is High 6-A and the entire planet (to the core) is Low 5-B. The Casket has the following statements about its power:

High 6-A makes sense, since it's affecting the crust to create ice lands, no? Not sure about the core, though

The Nine Realms includes planets like Earth, but also Muspelheim (a Dyson sphere around a star) and Nidavellir (a neutron star). Freezing a star can range from High 6-A to 5-A+ and up to Low 4-C.

Freezing the entire star makes sense to me, but I'm not the best person to ask about that.

From past threads, we considered than the two Celestials in Omnipotence City shouldn't be comparable to the highest feats performed by those from Eternals (like creating stars and being galaxy-sized), which is fine since the two are featless and we don't know how powerful they are. But at the very least the two Celestials should be High 5-A at bare minimum since that's how they're born, if so I think it would be fair to upscale the L&T characters from their current 5-B+ tier to High 5-A

Yep, that's perfectly fine.

4-C (if the stars were created/moved one by one)

Did he create them simultaneously or one at a time?

I do not know enough about the rest, nor do I care.

 

[Hellbeast]

Anyway, any news about Brand New Day? MCU has been quite dry for a long time now except for Born Again (thankfully, Invincible and the Boys were there to satisfy my first for superheroism. Not in the same way but still)

Apparently there’s some good scaling but also some weird anti-feats

 

[RoTt35]

High 6-A makes sense, since it's affecting the crust to create ice lands, no? Not sure about the core, though

I would think that reducing a planet to ash and ice would involve more than just the surface. And turning it into a frozen ice land for the Frost Giants to rule could arguably mean that it's turned into a planet like Jotunheim, which is composed only of ice and rock

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I would think that reducing a planet to ash and ice would involve more than just the surface. And turning it into a frozen ice land for the Frost Giants to rule could arguably mean that it's turned into a planet like Jotunheim, which is composed only of ice and rock

It depends on context. It's entirely possible to create an ice age without completely cooling the planet down to the core, since our Earth went through one.

 

[RoTt35]

It depends on context. It's entirely possible to create an ice age without completely cooling the planet down to the core, since our Earth went through one.

The statements don't suggest an ordinary ice age, the Casket can reduce planets to ice and lay waste to realms that are stars and turn them into frozen ice lands

 

[Rex_Eckles]

The statements don't suggest an ordinary ice age, the Casket can reduce planets to ice and lay waste to realms that are stars and turn them into frozen ice lands

Maybe, but I'm not too sure.

 

[Hellbeast]

We seem to have a moon level calculation for the feat which could help us out? Especially if we need consistency for Low 5-B

Funnily enough Moon level actually tracks with the weapons of Asgard being > Rocket’s moon level weapons and Hela not only considers the Casket weak but easily shatters Mjolnir herself. Maybe there’s something to that

 

[Rex_Eckles]

We seem to have a moon level calculation for the feat which could help us out? Especially if we need consistency for Low 5-B

I think that was High 6-A.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

We seem to have a moon level calculation for the feat which could help us out? Especially if we need consistency for Low 5-B

What calc are you referring too?

 

[Hellbeast]

What calc are you referring too?

I think that was High 6-A.

This one

 

[Rex_Eckles]

This one

Oh, I was thinking about this one.

 

[Lacku]

I'm not really convinced that the Casket should scale above High 6-A since it seems a consistent enough value that it allows it to freeze both planets and stars.

I agree with High 5-A L&T characters, 4-A Odin and the rest though

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Casket of Ancient Winters
Currently, the Casket of Ancient Winters scales from this common calc at High 6-B+, however that's only for freezing the atmosphere, while freezing the surface/crust is High 6-A and the entire planet (to the core) is Low 5-B. The Casket has the following statements about its power:

• Has the power to send an entire world/planet into an apocalyptic ice age
• Has the power to cause instant and never-ending winters, and could be used to take over the Nine Realms
• According to the script, it would have laid waste to all the Nine Realms. And the novelization states that it would have been used to turn all the realms into frozen ice lands, and had to be locked for the safety of all Nine Realms
• And a variant of Loki threatened to use it to reduce Earth to ash and ice

The Nine Realms includes planets like Earth, but also Muspelheim (a Dyson sphere around a star) and Nidavellir (a neutron star). Freezing a star can range from High 6-A to 5-A+ and up to Low 4-C. And well, if the Casket can freeze a star even minimally, I guess it should have enough range and cold to freeze to the planet's core. Regardless, I don't know which would be the best end to choose, but I think it should definitely be higher than the current one it scales

Agree with High 6-A but none of the evidence here suggests freezing the planet to the core, so I don’t agree with Low 5-B. They are all vague “Ice Age” statements, besides the last one which I’d still say is a bit vague and is from What If which I recall isnt supposed to be scaled to the main franchise on this wiki.

L&T Characters
From past threads, we considered than the two Celestials in Omnipotence City shouldn't be comparable to the highest feats performed by those from Eternals (like creating stars and being galaxy-sized), which is fine since the two are featless and we don't know how powerful they are. But at the very least the two Celestials should be High 5-A at bare minimum since that's how they're born, if so I think it would be fair to upscale the L&T characters from their current 5-B+ tier to High 5-A

These celestials seem a bit smaller than Tiamut so could have come from a smaller planet. I’m not against High 5-A if accepted by staff but I do think that should be kept in mind.

Odin's Creation
Currently, Odin creating constellations is tiered as 4-B, which is incorrect since such feats are either 4-C (if the stars were created/moved one by one) or 4-A (if all the stars were created at the same time). Therefore, his Creation tier should be updated accordingly to either end

As people have said above, they were all created at once so I agree with 4-A

Some Speed Stuff
I think the speed of Dormammu and Alioth should be changed from Subsonic to Unknown, since it doesn't makes any sense that characters we've never seen in their full might on screen and who can affect/consume infinite-sized universes , with the former essentially having a multiverse as his body and the latter having "Stated to have instantly devoured entire branched realities" as a justification for his current Subsonic speed. Also, it seems that when Alioth was upgraded from "At least 2-A, possibly Low 1-C" to just Low 1-C, his durability was forgotten to be updated as well, so it should be changed to just Low 1-C too

• Extra: Vibration Manipulation (Can vibrate her weapons and cause a whole mountain to rumble) for Hela, also her Class M LS should have an "at least" before since she upscales from Thor who already has that

I agree with this.

 

[RoTt35]

This one

That calc is about removing the thermal energy from the neutron star, I wouldn't know how to also calculate freezing it into ice

These celestials seem a bit smaller than Tiamut so could have come from a smaller planet. I’m not against High 5-A if accepted by staff but I do think that should be kept in mind.

All Celestials (except Ego) are born from rocky planets that must have harbored the same amount of life as Earth, besides Celestials are accepted to have Size Manipulation

 

[darkphantom9805]

if we are upgrading the two omnipotent city celestials how come we don’t scale the main L&T cast to it ?

Zeus straight up says Gorr could kill those 2 celestials

 

[1000TonsofFun]

That calc is about removing the thermal energy from the neutron star, I wouldn't know how to also calculate freezing it into ice

A thing to point out about freezing Nidavellir is that most life seems to be confined to the rings, which wouldn’t require as much energy to be frozen.

All Celestials (except Ego) are born from rocky planets that must have harbored the same amount of life as Earth, besides Celestials are accepted to have Size Manipulation

Thing is, planets in the MCU don’t need to be like Earth to harbour life. Asgard is far smaller and different in shape to Earth and yet has a population of thousands at least. Sakaar is completely made of trash. Jotunheim appears to be mostly hollow and yet has a large population of Celestials. It seems like too big of an assumption to make too presume that every planet that harbours a Celestial is like Earth, they merely need to hold a similarly sized population (7 billion people can fit within Texas with the same population density of New York).

 

[Hellbeast]

That calc is about removing the thermal energy from the neutron star, I wouldn't know how to also calculate freezing it into ice

Ah ok so the feat could be higher. In the absence of such a calc this would probably serve fine

if we are upgrading the two omnipotent city celestials how come we don’t scale the main L&T cast to it ?

Zeus straight up says Gorr could kill those 2 celestials

There’s also some supplementary statements Zeus is the strongest god in omnipotence city for wish it’s worth

 

[Hellbeast]

Also just noticed this, could help support the above if this recalc is accepted

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Also just noticed this, could help support the above if this recalc is accepted

If nothing else, the LS probably is acceptable.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Apparently there’s some good scaling but also some weird anti-feats

Some stuff has been leaked?

 

[Hellbeast]

Some stuff has been leaked?

Yes

 

[darkphantom9805]

There’s also some supplementary statements Zeus is the strongest god in omnipotence city for wish it’s worth

Zeus straight up says in the film Gorr could kill everyone at the city meaning he can kill the two celestial at the city or at least pose a threat to them Zeus was scared Gorr would even find their location meaning he believes the celestial would not be enough to protect them

Apparently there’s some good scaling but also some weird anti-feats

spidey is about to clean hulks clock

 

[ArkhamDC06]

We seem to have a moon level calculation for the feat which could help us out? Especially if we need consistency for Low 5-B

Funnily enough Moon level actually tracks with the weapons of Asgard being > Rocket’s moon level weapons and Hela not only considers the Casket weak but easily shatters Mjolnir herself. Maybe there’s something to that

I mean, Hela is Hela, the Casket might only be weak from her perspective because she's ridiculously powerful and much higher on the totem pole than most high threat. It's like how Darth Vader is stronger than Maul (wink wink). It doesn't mean Maul is weak, it's just that Vader is aberrantly powerful even for the setting he's in.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

spidey is about to clean hulks clock

Like Bucky was able to easily match Sentry in Thunderbolts?

 

[Hellbeast]

I mean, Hela is Hela, the Casket might only be weak from her perspective because she's ridiculously powerful and much higher on the totem pole than most high threat.

Yeah I know

It's like how Darth Vader is stronger than Maul (wink wink). It doesn't mean Maul is weak, it's just that Vader is aberrantly powerful even for the setting he's in.

Maul is just a ******* fraud tbh

Zeus straight up says in the film Gorr could kill everyone at the city meaning he can kill the two celestial at the city or at least pose a threat to them Zeus was scared Gorr would even find their location meaning he believes the celestial would not be enough to protect them

I mean if we go by the Zeus > statements it’s even worse

spidey is about to clean hulks clock

* Punisher with a truck

 

[Qawsedf234]

Currently, the Casket of Ancient Winters scales from this common calc at High 6-B+, however that's only for freezing the atmosphere, while freezing the surface/crust is High 6-A and the entire planet (to the core) is Low 5-B. The Casket has the following statements about its power:

Turning things cold, even globally, can last for tens of thousands of years. If its truly never ending, which is a very hyperbolic statement, then it could imply a more total freezing. But the more consistent statements align with long term global winters in my mind.

The Nine Realms includes planets like Earth, but also Muspelheim (a Dyson sphere around a star) and Nidavellir (a neutron star). Freezing a star can range from High 6-A to 5-A+ and up to Low 4-C. And well, if the Casket can freeze a star even minimally, I guess it should have enough range and cold to freeze to the planet's core. Regardless, I don't know which would be the best end to choose, but I think it should definitely be higher than the current one it scales

Reading the stuff, the main issue I see with Muspelheim and Nidavellir is that they're dead or dying stars. Nidavellir is so dead they have to restart it after all. It supports a High 6-A to Low 5-B end, but getting it to Tier 4 would require it freezing an active star.

Currently, Odin creating constellations is tiered as 4-B, which is incorrect since such feats are either 4-C (if the stars were created/moved one by one) or 4-A (if all the stars were created at the same time). Therefore, his Creation tier should be updated accordingly to either end

I disagree with @KLOL506 's logic here. Presumably, they're saying 4-A because of range, but that would only work if the physical space was created and the stars were spawned in at once. With Odin he's just creating a ton of stars at once and then moving them at FTL speeds, which defaults to the GBE of the Stars like with Radahn's calc. In which case it should be High 4-C based on just counting the stars on the panel (4-B requires 5,135 stars to be created).

Some Speed Stuff

Fine with this

From past threads, we considered than the two Celestials in Omnipotence City shouldn't be comparable to the highest feats performed by those from Eternals (like creating stars and being galaxy-sized), which is fine since the two are featless and we don't know how powerful they are. But at the very least the two Celestials should be High 5-A at bare minimum since that's how they're born, if so I think it would be fair to upscale the L&T characters from their current 5-B+ tier to High 5-A

I was against this before, but it made more sense when they got higher-end feats over time. From what I can see we have a High 6-A to Low 5-B statement, a High 4-C creation feat, Kinshu's 5-B+ feat, and Gorr's implication makes it more acceptable. Or if other mods are against a solid rating, "Likely High 5-A" works as well I guess.

Though I imagine if Thor fights Sentry in Avengers Doomsday, most of this discussion becomes irrelevant.

Also we don't/shouldn't use What If for scaling. The MCU is already really bad with overall general scaling and What If just makes that problem exponentially worse.

 

[Hellbeast]

Turning things cold, even globally, can last for tens of thousands of years. If its truly never ending, which is a very hyperbolic statement, then it could imply a more total freezing. But the more consistent statements align with long term global winters in my mind.


Reading the stuff, the main issue I see with Muspelheim and Nidavellir is that they're dead or dying stars. Nidavellir is so dead they have to restart it after all. It supports a High 6-A to Low 5-B end, but getting it to Tier 4 would require it freezing an active star.

I disagree with @KLOL506 's logic here. Presumably, they're saying 4-A because of range, but that would only work if the physical space was created and the stars were spawned in at once. With Odin he's just creating a ton of stars at once and then moving them at FTL speeds, which defaults to the GBE of the Stars like with Radahn's calc. In which case it should be High 4-C based on just counting the stars on the panel (4-B requires 5,135 stars to be created).

Fine with this

I was against this before, but it made more sense when they got higher-end feats over time. From what I can see we have a High 6-A to Low 5-B statement, a High 4-C creation feat, Kinshu's 5-B+ feat, and Gorr's implication makes it more acceptable. Or if other mods are against a solid rating, "Likely High 5-A" works as well I guess.

Though I imagine if Thor fights Sentry in Avengers Doomsday, most of this discussion becomes irrelevant.

Yeah realistically we just need to see Sentry fight Thor or some such

I do know Sentry is likened to Hulk, Thor and Captain Marvel combined so maybe you can back scale that way but it’s very iffy at this point sadly.

Val and Sentry both seem to believe he’s stronger then the Avengers collectively which, he mentions, has to include Thor

Also we don't/shouldn't use What If for scaling. The MCU is already really bad with overall general scaling and What If just makes that problem exponentially worse.

I’d agree yeah, at best we could scale Marvel Zombies using it