Monster Hunter: Kushala-tier Upgrades & Discussion

[Sigilavox]

Hello. This is a CRT for the accepted Kushala Daora recalc to buff it (and monsters that scale to it) up to 191.76 Gigatons, or High 6-C.

This thread will also be the hub to discuss the so-called "Elder Level" monsters and which Elder Dragons actually scale to it.

First, we'll list our exemptions:

Spoiler: Monsters that are scaled above Kushala

Fatalis, Crimson Fatalis, White Fatalis, Alatreon, Dire Miralis, possibly Oltura, Zorah Magdaros, Xeno'jiiva, Dalamadur, Shah Dalamadur

Spoiler: Monsters that are scaled below Kushala

Kirin, Gore Magala

Alright, let's discuss.

Kushala-tier due to fighting Kushala
Let's start easy; these are the monsters with whom Kushala has a turf war. All of these results end in a tie, implying they are comparable with each other.

• Teostra (here)
• Lunastra (here)
• Rajang (here)
• Espinas (here)
• Nergigante (here)
• Furious Rajang (here)

Addendum: A statement from the Dive Into Iceborne book claiming that Furious Rajang is "Super Elder Tier" unlike base Rajang, which is "Elder Tier" - Nergigante is also listed in "Super Elder Tier", but that is a separate discussion. We know that both of these monsters scale to Kushala at least, so I believe we should list both as "At least High 6-C, possibly higher".

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Kushala-tier due to fighting Kushala-level monsters

• Bazelgeuse (here) ties with Rajang
• Deviljho (here) ties with Bazelgeuse (+1 degree of separation)
• Savage Deviljho (here) ties with Rajang
• Blackveil Vaal Hazak (here) ties with Rajang

These will also get High 6-C for fighting monsters who can go toe-to-toe with Kushala-level monsters.

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Monsters with Equal HRP to Kushala (No Feats)
These monsters have no feats but grant an equal amount of reward money and HRP to Kushala or Kushala-level monsters.

• Vaal Hazak
  • It no-sells Odogaron, but this is the one, single feat we have
  • Its quest rewards are identical to Kushala Daora
• Chameleos
  • It has a tendency to be put in games alongside Kushala and Teostra as part of a trio
  • It has the same HRP reward as the other two in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, Generations Ultimate, and Rise
• Raging Brachydios
  • Compared with Furious Rajang, it has equal HRP rewards in Iceborne and gives greater HRP in 4 Ultimate and Generations Ultimate

These guys could arguably get High 6-C passes, but this is the first batch of monsters for whom we don't have any direct statements or feats backing them up.

Instead, at equal star rank, HRP and quest money determine how monsters compare with each other. This is why, despite Zinogre (HRP 1120) being MR6 in Iceborne, it is not considered more powerful than a MR5 Velkhana (HRP 1260). Monsters with higher HRP rewards are considered stronger; note that this logic is not stated anywhere but merely implied with harder and more dangerous quests granting more HRP, so is not fully ironclad.

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Potentially Higher than Kushala Tier due to HRP (No Feats)
The following monsters are all fought at the same rank as Kushala in 4 Ultimate and GU but give more money and HRP than Kushala in GU.

• Akantor
  • It’s equal in rewards to Kushala in 4U and slightly higher rewards than Kushala in GU
  • Final boss of MHF2
• Ukanlos
  • Same justification as Akantor
  • Final boss of MHFU
• Amatsu
  • Not present in 4 Ultimate, but in GU it’s in the same spot as Akantor and Ukanlos
  • Final boss of MH Portable 3rd, a game without Kushala, Teostra, or Chameleos
• Ahtal-Ka
  • In GU, it’s far above Kushala in terms of HRP and money rewards, and is in fact...
  • Final boss of MHGU
• Nakarkos
  • Similar rewards as Ahtal-Ka in GU
  • Final boss of MHGen iirc
• Crimson Glow Valstrax
  • In Rise, it grants far more rewards than Kushala (1680 HRP vs. 1050 HRP) and is locked until HR 100 unlike Kushala's HR 30. Furthermore, it is given a Threat Level of "10", higher than Kushala's "8". This is kept in Sunbreak, when CGV is locked to MR 70 while Kushala is fought during the story at MR 5.

These should get an "At least High 6-C, likely higher" rating if we consider HRP logic to be generally sound, as they are fought after Kushala and grant more HRP.

---

Slightly Off-Kushala-tier Elders
These monsters are lower than Kushala in rewards in games they share, with one exception.

• Valstrax (It grants significantly fewer HRP and money rewards in GU, its introductory game, when compared with Kushala Daora and co.)
  • It's not quite lower to the degree Kirin is - since Kirin is only fought in G3 hub, while Valstrax is fought a whole level up in G4 along with Kushala.
  • I propose we simply state "High 6-C" since it's still in the same "league" as Kushala, just clearly lower.
• Shagaru Magala
  • Its home game, MH4U, treated Kushala as requiring more preparation and allies to face than Shagaru, who was killed single-handedly by the player character earlier in the story.
  • Shagaru was later downgraded to the star below Kushala in Generations.
  • GU raised it back to the same level as Kushala (LR 3* Hub/G4 Hub)… yet it still gave fewer rewards than Kushala, i.e. 560 HRP vs. 700 HRP.
  • This changed in Sunbreak, where it actually gives more rewards than Kushala; its quest gives 1420 HRP while Kushala’s gives 1400.
  • I have no bloody clue where to go with this. "At least High 8-C, likely High 6-C"?

---

“Hell if I know” Elder Dragon tier
These monsters are also Elder Dragons, but have zero feats or statements comparing them to Kushala:

• Lao-Shan Lung
  • Siege hunt, so it's in a different format than Kushala. Never seen fighting anything, just running from a Fatalis once.
• Yama Tsukami
  • Siege hunt-ish, it's only in one game and never came back. shrugs
• Ceadeus
  • Its only games did not have Kushala in them, and it is believed that adult Ceadeus hunt Nakarkos, or that the latter hunt juvenile Ceadeus. I don't really remember. If it does actually hunt Nakarkos, we can probably justify a High 6-C, likely higher rating from that alone.
• Jhen Mohran
  • Siege hunt. Never seen fighting any other monster.
• Dah’ren Mohran
  • In 4U, this guy’s quest gives more rewards than Kushala, but it’s also a siege/ship quest in different format than a normal hunt.
  • Never seen fighting any other monster.
  • A group of sandskiffs and some artillery weapons were enough to kill one; even a non-militarized settlement like Val Habar could fend one off, as opposed to the fortified Guild headquarters Dundorma, which needed unique technology, the entire Ace Hunter squad, and a bunch of artillery to just repel Kushala

---

"Elder Dragon Level" Monsters
These are the rest of the "Elder Dragon level monsters" who have no feats or direct statements placing them aside Kushala Daora.

• Silver Rathalos & Gold Rathian
  • There isn’t any explicit confirmation from an official (non-wiki) source that these creatures are comparable to Kushala Daora...
  • BUT it is mentioned in the Iceborne Dive book that Silverlos and Goldian were hypothesized to be planning to use the Nergigante nest as their own, whereas normal Rathalos and Rathian do not lair in the Elder’s Recess. So perhaps they may be comfortable with living in a locale in which Elder Dragons (including Kushala Daora) are relatively common, placing them astride the rest.
  • If these two monsters are accepted to be on par with Kushala, then all of the following should be also considered, despite again not having any statements or feats confirming Kushala-level power.
    • S&G are fought at the same time as Abyssal Lagiacrus and Lucent Nargacuga in MH3U
    • S&G are fought at the same time as Molten Tigrex in MH4U
• Laviente
  • It's so fricken big..
  • But we haven't collected official evidence, if any, that it scales to Kushala.

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Variation Species
Less sure about whether these should scale to Kushala, since there aren't really any strong statements going one way or the other iirc.

• Apex (4U)
  • Apexes are an unknown category to me. Apex Deviljho obviously makes sense as being on par, but what else?
• Deviant (Gen, MHGU)
  • Deviants are an unknown category to me. Can someone who played GU help out?
  • If there are any, which statements or feats support Deviant = Elder level?
• Tempered non-Elder (World)
  • Tempered monsters have the Dive Into Monster Hunter: World statements that blue scoutflies indicate “Elder Level power”, but this is contradicted by Deviljho, Bazelgeuse, Rajang, Frostfang Barioth, etc. not triggering blue scoutflies in the same game/expansion of the same game.
• Apex (Rise)
  • Apex (Rise) monsters have nothing except a “Threat Level” equal to or above Kushala Daora. They were said to survive being in a windstorm caused by Wind Serpent Ibushi, possibly placing them at the latter's baseline Small Country level when the God Serpents get their own pages, but I'm skeptical since we don't actually see how it happens. I'd probably put them as "At least High 8-C, possibly Low 6-B". We can discuss this down below.

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Addendum for Gogmazios
As an aside, Gogmazios is fought in 4 Ultimate at the same rank as Shah Dalamadur (at the end of G-Rank), granting the exact same reward money and HRP as the Eternal Emperor, which is higher than Kushala. So, it might be comparable to Shah Dalamadur by that logic. I suggest that we consider Gogmazios on par with Shah Dalamadur (and hence at least equal to Dalamadur), which I believe is Small Country level for shaking the earth.

 

[Sigilavox]

Frontier Monsters haven't been listed, but we can also discuss them below.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with this but am somewhat reluctant about the Threat Rankings since they vary a lot between games.

 

[Chariot190]

Agree with the spoiler tabs.
Agree with the fighting with and fighting those who scale thing.
Agree with Vaal Haazak being comparable (Maybe put an "At most" if its higher form merely ties with Rajang), Chameleous feels ok too but I'm not sure. Raging Brach I'm neutral on.
Nanarkos, Akantor, bug thing, Ukanlos all ok. Other two idk.

Shagaru we can probably make use of the "at most" prefix.

Gog being very high end I agree with.

The rest I'm neutral or don't know enough to say anything on.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Shagaru tiering doesn't feels right lel, joke aside i agree with everything

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I was gonna bring up the big guy but he doesn't have a profile on the wiki so nvm. Overall I agree with this CRT we just need profiles for Iceborne and Rise/Sunbreak EDs/ED level monsters.

I really want to make them myself without relying on others (or at least a blog) but it always go to Kirin dung every time I try.

 

[DMUA]

Obviously I'm fine with the calc, but in general a lot of the variants listed as 6-C as of now need better justifications, some are listed here (Gold Rathian and Silver Rathalos being in Nergigante's layer, and I'd also add how they're on the same threat level when tempered as an Elder Dragon/Rajang/Deviljho) but there's also Bloodbath diablos and a few others like that which probably need a closer look

They were said to survive being in a windstorm caused by Wind Serpent Ibushi, possibly placing them at the latter's baseline Small Country level when the God Serpents get their own pages, but I'm skeptical since we don't actually see how it happens.

Yeah, you don't really need to withstand the full kinetic energy of a storm to survive it. At most, they'd likely just get tossed around at 200 miles per hour or something and have to withstand their weight crashing into everything (which is nowhere near Tier 6)

Like, maybe if they survived a storm by just negating it with a lightning blast or something, that'd be fine, but otherwise not really

 

[Sigilavox]

Obviously I'm fine with the calc, but in general a lot of the variants listed as 6-C as of now need better justifications, some are listed here (Gold Rathian and Silver Rathalos being in Nergigante's layer, and I'd also add how they're on the same threat level when tempered as an Elder Dragon/Rajang/Deviljho) but there's also Bloodbath diablos and a few others like that which probably need a closer look

Yeah, you don't really need to withstand the full kinetic energy of a storm to survive it. At most, they'd likely just get tossed around at 200 miles per hour or something and have to withstand their weight crashing into everything (which is nowhere near Tier 6)

Like, maybe if they survived a storm by just negating it with a lightning blast or something, that'd be fine, but otherwise not really

Yeah, I really want to pin down which monsters we're scaling to Kushala and for what reason.

As of now, many Elder Dragons and "Elder-level monsters" (which doesn't reference any particular elder dragon, so it could just be Kirin) just don't have any statements implying a parity with or even a degree of separation from Kushala, leaving it all in the blank. I'd be happy to change only Kushala's turf-buddies (and their turf-buddies) to High 6-C and have the others... I don't know, "At least High 8-C"? "Unknown"?

I'm almost 100% certain we can give Gold+Silver at least a "possibly High 6-C", given that they were possibly building a nest in the Nergigante lair. And perhaps we can give all HRP-equivalent monsters (i.e. Akantor, Raging Brachydios, Crimson Glow Valstrax, etc.) a "possibly High 6-C"?

Like where does it specifically say that Deviants are Elder-level? We can use Hellblade Glavenus's mountain-vaporizing statement to determine a minimum AP for it, and perhaps that to scale to the other Deviants?

 

[DMUA]

As of now, many Elder Dragons and "Elder-level monsters" (which doesn't reference any particular elder dragon, so it could just be Kirin) just don't have any statements implying a parity with or even a degree of separation from Kushala, leaving it all in the blank. I'd be happy to change only Kushala's turf-buddies (and their turf-buddies) to High 6-C and have the others... I don't know, "At least High 8-C"? "Unknown"?

I'm almost 100% certain we can give Gold+Silver at least a "possibly High 6-C", given that they were possibly building a nest in the Nergigante lair. And perhaps we can give all HRP-equivalent monsters (i.e. Akantor, Raging Brachydios, Crimson Glow Valstrax, etc.) a "possibly High 6-C"?

Likely sounds better for context specific stuff, but otherwise, yeah this sounds alright

Like where does it specifically say that Deviants are Elder-level? We can use Hellblade Glavenus's mountain-vaporizing statement to determine a minimum AP for it, and perhaps that to scale to the other Deviants?

No idea, and, where is this statement?

 

[Sigilavox]

No idea, and, where is this statement?

Weirdly enough, its in-game description: A Glavenus whose intense heat is akin to an active volcano. It can blast apart stone with a single breath, and incinerate mountains with a single swipe of its red-hot tail. The "Hellblade" requires a special permission to hunt.

 

[DMUA]

"Incinerate" is definitely not the same thing as vaporize. This could just as easily be pulverization, or even something as simple as covering it in fire.

 

[Chariot190]

I wouldn't say "covering in fire", if that was the case it'd probably say something like "light a mountain on fire with a single swing of its tail" or something akin to that, literally nobody uses that word like that.
It's most commonly used in situations involving things like ash and is defined by burning something completely often to ash, in fact the word literally derives from "burn to ash" in latin (or close enough). Which isn't vaporization, but it's definitely not just immolation, it's burning something to the point of being reduced to a lower substance like ash or carbon or what not, given that's kinda what that specific word entails.

I'd probably go with whatever is needed to reduce a standard mountain, or the mountains in its habitat, to ash or char or something akin to that if we're gonna take that line at face value. But in that same vain, it isn't exactly feasible to turn mountains to ash, not really how it works so shrug. There's a good feat there, but it ain't gonna be me calcing it.

 

[Sigilavox]

"Incinerate" is definitely not the same thing as vaporize. This could just as easily be pulverization, or even something as simple as covering it in fire.

Makes sense.

I'd probably go with whatever is needed to reduce a standard mountain, or the mountains in its habitat, to ash or char or something akin to that if we're gonna take that line at face value. But in that same vain, it isn't exactly feasible to turn mountains to ash, not really how it works so shrug. There's a good feat there, but it ain't gonna be me calcing it.

Mountains and rock don't become ash, as you'd need living matter (carbon) to burn, i.e. wood or animal bodies. The current Zorah calc is based off of the idea that the New World would be pumped up to the temperature at which wood generally self-ignites (300 C) to justify "ash" statements, so we could do a similar heat calc here with a minimum-sized mountain.

Regardless, I don't see it anywhere close to High 6-C, so we can probably just rule Deviants out of the picture for scaling to Kushala, just like Apexes (Rise) and almost certainly non-Rajang/Deviljho Apexes (4U).

Tempered monsters, though, I'm not sure where to place.

 

[Sigilavox]

Funnily enough, in the Laviente video, a volcano erupts on the island it is occupying, a single fireball from which knocks an Espinas from the sky, and the Laviente is later shown to be perfectly fine curled up next to the actively-erupting volcanic vent. So "At least High 6-C, possibly higher?"

 

[Chariot190]

Mountains and rock don't become ash, as you'd need living matter (carbon) to burn, i.e. wood or animal bodies. The current Zorah calc is based off of the idea that the New World would be pumped up to the temperature at which wood generally self-ignites (300 C) to justify "ash" statements, so we could do a similar heat calc here with a minimum-sized mountain.

Regardless, I don't see it anywhere close to High 6-C, so we can probably just rule Deviants out of the picture for scaling to Kushala, just like Apexes (Rise) and almost certainly non-Rajang/Deviljho Apexes (4U).

Tempered monsters, though, I'm not sure where to place.

I'm well aware, I even said as much "it isn't exactly feasible to turn mountains to ash, not really how it works so shrug".

Which is where the issue comes in, the word used is explicitly for turning something to ash (it can also be used for complete destruction of something by burning it, but the end result is still usually specified as "ash"), but you can't really turn a mountain to ash. I'm actually not sure how'd we go about calcing it, it's trying to say it becomes ash but that is impossible, but we can obviously tell by the way it's worded that it's trying to say Glav can **** a whole mountain with a tail swipe. Do you have the raws? Maybe it uses a different word that'd enable us to calc it better?

And yeah, it wouldn't be High 6-C, but it'd at minimum be a very good degree of tier 7, might even be higher perhaps.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Not having much luck finding the original japanese versions of that text (although I guess you could change in-game language on MHG/MHGU to Japanese and try and translate from there), but I do know that the japanese name of this subspecies is "ember dinovaldo"

so maybe by looking up ember dinovaldo we'll stumble into more Japanese sources, and get a direct translation through that and maybe put this whole mountain thing to bed?

 

[DMUA]

Even if it is completely different

Mountains are around 609.6 meters at the least, assuming a 45 degree slope means the radius is the same as that

(1/3 times 606.9) times 609.6^2 times pie is 75177139.968 meters, 75177139968000 centimeters

Times 214.5 for pulverization (might not be the right number but it's what I can recall and I'll roll with it) is

16125496523136000 Joules, 3.85408616709 Gigatons, High 7-A+

 

[Chariot190]

That's actually a bit higher than I was expecting huh.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hellblade Glavenus is just built different.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Not even that far off from 6-C all things considered lmao

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Even if it is completely different

Mountains are around 609.6 meters at the least, assuming a 45 degree slope means the radius is the same as that

(1/3 times 606.9) times 609.6^2 times pie is 75177139.968 meters, 75177139968000 centimeters

Times 214.5 for pulverization (might not be the right number but it's what I can recall and I'll roll with it) is

16125496523136000 Joules, 3.85408616709 Gigatons, High 7-A+

We should get this put in a Blog.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Giant monsters like Tsukami and Ceadeus can have High 6-C just because of the hassle high class hunter had of defeating them, also Tsukami has G rank level one shots in its encounters. I don't know about Apex Monsters, they're just affected by Frenzy Virus right? Can that still be a key anyway, it's unaccessible unless they're near Gore and can normal monsters even have hidden powers so powerful it could rival elder dragons?

 

[DMUA]

I don't know about Apex Monsters, they're just affected by Frenzy Virus right? Can that still be a key anyway, it's unaccessible unless they're near Gore and can normal monsters even have hidden powers so powerful it could rival elder dragons?

The virus still persists after Gore or Shagaru die (by which case it supposedly just spreads uncontrollably)

And if a monster overcomes the virus (presumably through sheer violence considering how a hunter does it), they turn into an Apex and can just use it at will (as well as have their skin turn tough enough to bounce a hunter's attacks off of specific parts if they don't have a Wystone for it active)

That said I don't think they do anything nearly that impressive, Apex Seregios sends almost the entirety of his own kind running (keeping in mind Seregios' population are lower because they constantly fight eachother to the death) but otherwise I don't think they have any particular canon showings

Anyways I might deal with that Hellblade calc

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The virus still persists after Gore or Shagaru die (by which case it supposedly just spreads uncontrollably)

And if a monster overcomes the virus (presumably through sheer violence considering how a hunter does it), they turn into an Apex and can just use it at will (as well as have their skin turn tough enough to bounce a hunter's attacks off of specific parts if they don't have a Wystone for it active)

That said I don't think they do anything nearly that impressive, Apex Seregios sends almost the entirety of his own kind running (keeping in mind Seregios' population are lower because they constantly fight eachother to the death) but otherwise I don't think they have any particular canon showings

Anyways I might deal with that Hellblade calc

Apex Seregios bodied one of the Ace Hunters who helps fight off the Scarred Kushala Daora a few missions later.

 

[DMUA]

Even if it is completely different

Mountains are around 609.6 meters at the least, assuming a 45 degree slope means the radius is the same as that

(1/3 times 606.9) times 609.6^2 times pie is 75177139.968 meters, 75177139968000 centimeters

Times 214.5 for pulverization (might not be the right number but it's what I can recall and I'll roll with it) is

16125496523136000 Joules, 3.85408616709 Gigatons, High 7-A+

It does occur to me that this exists and I have no idea how I got High 7-A+ but apparently the volume got multiplied by like, 4 when I used my phone calculator on this

maybe I also forgot to put a decimal in the pulverization value, either way

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It does occur to me that this exists and I have no idea how I got High 7-A+ but apparently the volume got multiplied by like, 4 when I used my phone calculator on this

maybe I also forgot to put a decimal in the pulverization value, either way

So it was wrong?

 

[DMUA]

yeah

It's still 7-B for deviants but

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

yeah

It's still 7-B for deviants but

I see. So what do we have left for this CRT?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

yeah

It's still 7-B for deviants but

Hmmm... somewhat consistent with Kirin at least.

 

[Sigilavox]

I see. So what do we have left for this CRT?

Here's what I've got planned:

• "High 6-C" for Kushala + turf buddies.

• "At least High 8-C, likely High 6-C" for Rare Species such as Gold Rathian, Molten Tigrex, etc. because the Metal Raths felt confident in making a nest in an Elder Dragon-infested locale, while every other rare species is comparable to them by all appearing at the exact same ranks in the games they share
• "At least High 8-C, likely High 6-C" for Valstrax because it's definitely treated as below Kushala in its game but it still unlocks the quest difficulty that has Kushala.
• "At least High 8-C, likely High 6-C" for Shagaru Magala as it's pretty fair to say its home game treats Kushala as a higher threat and it is only fought right after regular apexes like Zinogre and Rathalos.
• "At least High 8-C, likely High 6-C" for species that ONLY have comparable HRP as their justification, due to the proof not being totally conclusive.
  • Chameleos, Vaal Hazak, and Raging Brachydios.
• "At least High 8-C, likely far higher" goes to Ceadeus for being fought after Lagiacrus but still shaking a small island with its strength.

• "At least High 6-C, likely higher" for species that for sure have higher HRP rewards due to only ever being fought after Kushala and without lower rewards.
  • Nakarkos, Amatsu, and Crimson Glow Valstrax
    • Technically Amatsu is the final boss of its home game, but in GU it isn't, and that's the game it shares with Kushala.
• "At least High 6-C, likely higher" for "final boss" monsters and hence being fought after a bunch of Elder Dragons and probably being considered more dangerous.
  • Yama Tsukami, Ahtal-Ka, and I believe Akantor and Ukanlos (which are fought after Kushala with higher rewards in GU anyways)
  • As an aside, Yama is only fought after you fight White Fatalis in both monsters' introductory game, and it has a one-shot while White doesn't.

• "Unknown" for Lao-Shan Lung, Dah'ren Mohran, and Jhen Mohran for now due to having zero point of reference for other elders.

• "7-B" for Deviants, justified by Hellblade's feat once that goes up.

• "At least High 8-C, likely higher" for all other non-Deviljho/Rajang/etc. variation species just have until future discussion or evidence.

• "Low 6-B" goes to Gogmazios for being equally dangerous as Shah Dalamadur.

Formatting sucks, but this is basically the gameplan. Laviente probably has some kind of connection or parity with other monsters, but I'd have to wait for evidence.

Giant monsters like Tsukami and Ceadeus can have High 6-C just because of the hassle high class hunter had of defeating them, also Tsukami has G rank level one shots in its encounters. I don't know about Apex Monsters, they're just affected by Frenzy Virus right? Can that still be a key anyway, it's unaccessible unless they're near Gore and can normal monsters even have hidden powers so powerful it could rival elder dragons?

The hunter who fights Ceadeus in 3/3U hadn't fought any elder dragons beforehand, and it's in Low Rank. In any case, I think our ongoing Hunter profile rework makes scaling the hunter iffy as of right now.

 

[Sigilavox]

5-A Yama Tsukami anyone?

 

[DMUA]

I'm not sure a likely rating works for the Elder Dragons (Cadeus and whatnot)

On the last thread, someone did mention that the scarred Kushala is probably just an abnormally strong case (It does take a Dragonator and the experimental dragon cannon I forget the name of ultimately not that harmed, the former of which is primarily broken out for things like Fatalis or Zorah Magdaros that they just barely do anything to with normal artillery), so Shagaru Magala being lower than them while still just generally being an Elder Dragon and just as powerful as a result isn't necessarily that big of a jump

And that does extend to other instances as well, like, Low Rank of World for instance has you fighting off Zorah (and Nergigante in the process), and you fight Magnamalo at the end of Rise's Low Rank, who fights plenty of Elder Dragons inofthemsleves.

Obviously Kirin is an exception since they blatantly get stomped by Rajang and are considered the weakest Elder Dragon, but... Well, that actually is another thing, assuming the statement is legit, that Elder Dragons should scale up from Kirin if they have absolutely nothing else, even if there's nothing concrete to put them at Kushala's level

Also, the Hellblade calc is technically already made, even if just listed on a general page, so you could probably just use that plain and simple

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Shouldn't Deviants be 7-A at least? Didn't Hunter already fought Kirin by the time they hunt Deviants or at least that's what I heard.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Shouldn't Deviants be 7-A at least? Didn't Hunter already fought Kirin by the time they hunt Deviants or at least that's what I heard.

Usually Kirin is fought before stuff like that. I know that Shagaru Magala is fought after Kirin at the very least.

I'm not sure a likely rating works for the Elder Dragons (Cadeus and whatnot)

On the last thread, someone did mention that the scarred Kushala is probably just an abnormally strong case (It does take a Dragonator and the experimental dragon cannon I forget the name of ultimately not that harmed, the former of which is primarily broken out for things like Fatalis or Zorah Magdaros that they just barely do anything to with normal artillery), so Shagaru Magala being lower than them while still just generally being an Elder Dragon and just as powerful as a result isn't necessarily that big of a jump

And that does extend to other instances as well, like, Low Rank of World for instance has you fighting off Zorah (and Nergigante in the process), and you fight Magnamalo at the end of Rise's Low Rank, who fights plenty of Elder Dragons inofthemsleves.

Obviously Kirin is an exception since they blatantly get stomped by Rajang and are considered the weakest Elder Dragon, but... Well, that actually is another thing, assuming the statement is legit, that Elder Dragons should scale up from Kirin if they have absolutely nothing else, even if there's nothing concrete to put them at Kushala's level

Also, the Hellblade calc is technically already made, even if just listed on a general page, so you could probably just use that plain and simple

That Scarred Kushala is actually Built Different for real. Also Gore Magala tanks a Dragonator in your first encounter with it on the shop too so I'm not sure if Dragonator Scaling is a good idea, especially since you can use a Dragonator against literally every monster in MHW in the Arena Quests.

 

[Sigilavox]

Usually Kirin is fought before stuff like that. I know that Shagaru Magala is fought after Kirin at the very least.

Kirin is definitely fought after Shagaru in 4. It has a long line of prerequisites, one of which is Shagaru's quest.

Shouldn't Deviants be 7-A at least? Didn't Hunter already fought Kirin by the time they hunt Deviants or at least that's what I heard.

Order of fighting is not a perfect system, hence why HRP in equivalent games/ranks was the metric used when possible (not perfect either but uses tangible numbers and remains consistent throughout a game's ranks and hence is immune to "out-of-order" syndrome).

• Seregios was first fought after Shagaru Magala, yet Seregios's G-Rank hub quest gives way less HRP and money compared with the G-Rank Shagaru quest, and Seregios has several "regular apex" showings and statements, implying that it isn't straight-up Elder tier. It's even a whole star level below Shagaru by the time you get to the latter in the G-Rank Hub quests, so there isn't really an argument that it's more dangerous than Shagaru.
• In World, your hunter manages to beat up a Nergigante enough to drive it away from the healthiest meal it's ever seen, yet you then go onto fight a Pink Rathian and that doesn't necessitate the latter being stronger than the former. There are other, better examples (like the above), but this was on the top of my head.
• Monster order is also likely to change with each new installment, with previous G-Rank or High Rank exclusives becoming available earlier or some non-Elders becoming G-Rank exclusives like in World, so order of fighting is.

All this said, several deviants are actually fought in Low Rank, such as Redhelm Arzuros, and its quest gives way less money and HRP than Kirin's Low-Rank Hub quest. But some deviant quests give more rewards than Kirin's at equal ranks... such as Hellblade. I think Drilltusk Tetsucabra is the tipping point where Deviants become more HRP-valuable than Kirin. Perhaps ones with higher rewards should upscale from Kirin, while lower ones... eh, I'm not sure.

All this said, Shagaru is almost assuredly High 6-C because it's at least treated on the same general wavelength in Sunbreak due to having higher HRP rewards than Kushala and the rests of the trio. But it doesn't have a feat against Kushala-level monsters or a statement comparing it to Kushala (or anything on Kushala's level), it's not a guarantee.

On the last thread, someone did mention that the scarred Kushala is probably just an abnormally strong case (It does take a Dragonator and the experimental dragon cannon I forget the name of ultimately not that harmed, the former of which is primarily broken out for things like Fatalis or Zorah Magdaros that they just barely do anything to with normal artillery), so Shagaru Magala being lower than them while still just generally being an Elder Dragon and just as powerful as a result isn't necessarily that big of a jump

And that does extend to other instances as well, like, Low Rank of World for instance has you fighting off Zorah (and Nergigante in the process), and you fight Magnamalo at the end of Rise's Low Rank, who fights plenty of Elder Dragons inofthemsleves.

Indeed, I agree that elder dragons are fought in low rank quite often. My take is that just because something is an elder dragon, we shouldn't assume it automatically scales to Kushala Daora. What we generally call "Elder level" should really be "Kushala level" since that's what we're scaling to, and given how dramatically the Elder Dragons can differ in power and scale of power, I'm against blanket-stating that "Elder level" has to be a certain point or minimum. A monster can be a "force of nature" without having to be High 6-C; making storms or earthquakes on the scale necessary to destroy whole entire villages or cities is far, far lower than that.

Obviously Kirin is an exception since they blatantly get stomped by Rajang and are considered the weakest Elder Dragon, but... Well, that actually is another thing, assuming the statement is legit, that Elder Dragons should scale up from Kirin if they have absolutely nothing else, even if there's nothing concrete to put them at Kushala's level

Not that I think Kirin is equal to Kushala or greater, but where is the statement that Kirin is the weakest Elder Dragon? And was this statement made after Shagaru came around? I also think Gore Magala's (also an Elder Dragon) existence kind of throws a wrench into that idea as well.

Also, the Hellblade calc is technically already made, even if just listed on a general page, so you could probably just use that plain and simple

Cool.

 

[Sigilavox]

I'm not sure a likely rating works for the Elder Dragons (Cadeus and whatnot)

Would a "possibly" work better? And for which monsters? There are many monster buckets here because of all the different points of connection (or lack thereof).

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Don't have much time, kinda just sped through what I could on this thread buuuuuuut

Are we sure HRP isn't just strictly a game mechanic in this instance? Are we positive that it'd be ideal for determining a general scope of what is stronger/weaker/equal to another Monster? Because I recall seeing someone mention that the HRP changed for a Monster between installments (I think it was about Shagaru), and then later said it was more consistent in individual titles. I know Sigilavox already pointed out that it's not a perfect method, but are we sure that this is the best one we've got?

Also I am definitely not in agreement with the proposed power level for Ceadeus here being 8-C, considering that this "small island" also has mountain ranges on it, and iirc Nakarkos is only stated to be capable of feasting on Ceadeus pups, and Nakarkos is considered 6-C in this thread. If Ceadeus is just 8-C, nothing would be stopping a Nakarkos from just decimating an adult Ceadeus and eating it.

I won't be able to reply much since I'll be at work in a few minutes but this is all I feel I can add at the moment, will try to contribute more later on

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Also last thing I'll toss in because IDK if this was discussed but when Nakarkos dies, this happens, indicating it was somehow tied to Nakarkos and it's presence

 

[Sigilavox]

Don't have much time, kinda just sped through what I could on this thread buuuuuuut

Are we sure HRP isn't just strictly a game mechanic in this instance? Are we positive that it'd be ideal for determining a general scope of what is stronger/weaker/equal to another Monster? Because I recall seeing someone mention that the HRP changed for a Monster between installments (I think it was about Shagaru), and then later said it was more consistent in individual titles. I know Sigilavox already pointed out that it's not a perfect method, but are we sure that this is the best one we've got?

Also I am definitely not in agreement with the proposed power level for Ceadeus here being 8-C, considering that this "small island" also has mountain ranges on it, and iirc Nakarkos is only stated to be capable of feasting on Ceadeus pups, and Nakarkos is considered 6-C in this thread. If Ceadeus is just 8-C, nothing would be stopping a Nakarkos from just decimating an adult Ceadeus and eating it.

I won't be able to reply much since I'll be at work in a few minutes but this is all I feel I can add at the moment, will try to contribute more later on

Yeah, I mentioned if we find the quote for Ceadeus fighting Nakarkos, it'd be an easy tier upgrade.

Fair enough, but if we don't use HR, then what is the standard we're using to determine these things aside from feats and direct statements? Because as is stands currently, a lot of monsters seem to be just arbitrarily decided to be on Kushala's tier without anything at all. Shagaru is the one case where its relation to Kushala's HRP changes as far as I can tell.

I would be fine if we got explicit confirmation that "most Elder Dragons are equivalent to Kushala" or something like that, but since we're scaling guys way, way above what the actual gameplay of the series operates at, we're pretty starved for feats to confirm how strong one monster is in comparison to another and we have to use what we have.

 

[DMUA]

Also Gore Magala tanks a Dragonator in your first encounter with it on the shop

I knew I forgot something

The arena quests usually do result in the monster's horrible demise so that felt dismissable enough but h