Monster Hunter: Kushala-tier Upgrades & Discussion

[DMUA]

Gore Magala's (also an Elder Dragon)

Gore Magala is actually like... Apparently their classification is more along the lines of "in-between?" You're fully capable of capturing them, even though they are the juvenile state to Shagaru

Though the Kirin statement was from the wiki (possibly a banned Lagraicrus thing) so maybe it's just fake, but

Would a "possibly" work better?

I just meant it felt more like they should just be High 6-C outright given context. It just feels strange for Elder Dragons, constantly treated as these massive deals and forces of nature contained in a monster's hide, to just be High 8-C and probably High 6-C (on that note, you do actually have to fight Vaal Hazak, Teo and Kushala in one straight shot, come to think of it, which would be a little bit strange if Vaal was just significantly stronger than Odogaron)

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Fair enough, but if we don't use HR, then what is the standard we're using to determine these things aside from feats and direct statements? Because as is stands currently, a lot of monsters seem to be just arbitrarily decided to be on Kushala's tier without anything at all.

I think i should have clarified that i was casting doubt on the Hunter Rank points and not the hunter rank itself, but i see your point lol

Would it be useful to calc the dispersal of the dark sky in that Nakarkos link i sent btw? Legit curious about that

 

[Sigilavox]

I just meant it felt more like they should just be High 6-C outright given context. It just feels strange for Elder Dragons, constantly treated as these massive deals and forces of nature contained in a monster's hide, to just be High 8-C and probably High 6-C (on that note, you do actually have to fight Vaal Hazak, Teo and Kushala in one straight shot, come to think of it, which would be a little bit strange if Vaal was just significantly stronger than Odogaron)

Honestly, my main issue with just sweeping every elder dragon up to "High 6-C" is that one doesn't even need to be in Tier 6 to be considered a force of nature or do anything that an Elder Dragon not named Kushala, White Fatalis, or Zorah Magdaros is shown to be capable of doing. Like, Fatalis's Iceborne giant fire nuke sits squarely in Town level, whereas Vaal Hazak just breathes beams or clouds of effluvium, and its environmental impact can't really be measured with something like attack potency. Something could be capable of just flat-out causing moss to grow rapidly over a hundred square miles and be considered a force of nature all itself, even though it might not have an impressive attack potency. Shouldn't we be scaling things to what their feats and statements show, not what 'feels' preferable?

The reason why Vaal Hazak and co. have the "likely" is because I wasn't sure whether HRP would be considered a totally acceptable measuring stick for AP. If it is 100% considered to be okay by our metrics, they could all just be flat-out High 6-C. In such a scenario, I'd be fine with elevating said monsters all up to High 6-C, since that's the numeric we're using.

 

[DMUA]

Honestly, my main issue with just sweeping every elder dragon up to "High 6-C" is that one doesn't even need to be in Tier 6 to be considered a force of nature or do anything that an Elder Dragon not named Kushala, White Fatalis, or Zorah Magdaros is shown to be capable of doing. Like, Fatalis's Iceborne giant fire nuke sits squarely in Town level, Vaal Hazak just breathes beams or clouds of effluvium, and its environmental impact can't really be measured with something like attack potency - something could be capable of just flat-out causing moss to grow rapidly over a hundred square miles could be considered a force of nature all itself, even though it might not have an impressive attack potency. Shouldn't we be scaling things to what their feats and statements show, not what 'feels' preferable?

I definitely get what you're saying, I'm just sorta stating my piece. Obviously more direct inconsistencies is what's best to go off of here (which so far only really show up in the case of Vaal Hazak and Cadeus)

Would it be useful to calc the dispersal of the dark sky in that Nakarkos link i sent btw? Legit curious about that

Probably, I'll take a look at it once I'm on my computer

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

lol Gore is an anomaly at this point

According to this Gore Magala is considered an Elder Dragon. Also to further make Gore weird, friendly reminder that it fought and beat the Ace Hunters in MH4U, who canonically fought monsters like Deviljho and Lunastra prior to this as seen in Monster Hunter: Legends Of The Guild (or whatever it was called)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I definitely get what you're saying, I'm just sorta stating my piece. Obviously more direct inconsistencies is what's best to go off of here (which so far only really show up in the case of Vaal Hazak and Cadeus)

Probably, I'll take a look at it once I'm on my computer

Doesn't Normal Vaal Hazak have a Turf War with Normal Deviljho? That should help with Scaling.

lol Gore is an anomaly at this point

According to this Gore Magala is considered an Elder Dragon. Also to further make Gore weird, friendly reminder that it fought and beat the Ace Hunters in MH4U, who canonically fought monsters like Deviljho and Lunastra prior to this as seen in Monster Hunter: Legends Of The Guild (or whatever it was called)

Also yeah, it did do that. One of those same Ace Hunters layer got bodied by the Apex Seregios when he had a whole squad of other Hunters with him so that gives Apex Monsters something to scale from or maybe it was just because it was Apex Seregios, idk.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also last thing I'll toss in because IDK if this was discussed but when Nakarkos dies, this happens, indicating it was somehow tied to Nakarkos and it's presence

That definitely needs a Calc.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

IDK about normal Vaal, but Blackveil Vaal Hazak has a turf war with both Savage Deviljho and Rajang. (Also I STILL assert that adult Ceadeus scale to Nakarkos)

That definitely needs a Calc.

DMUA said they'd take a look at it when they were back on comp

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

IDK about normal Vaal, but Blackveil Vaal Hazak has a turf war with both Savage Deviljho and Rajang. (Also I STILL assert that adult Ceadeus scale to Nakarkos)


DMUA said they'd take a look at it when they were back on comp

I could've sworn normal Vaal Hazak could do a Turf War with Deviljho but I guess not. Oh well, World still considers a Kushala level monster anyway since you have to fight it in a Gauntlet of hunts that involve Kushala before you get to fight Nergigante.

 

[DMUA]

Also last thing I'll toss in because IDK if this was discussed but when Nakarkos dies, this happens, indicating it was somehow tied to Nakarkos and it's presence

Finally got to this, and, ugh...

I mean it's getting brighter outside but it's almost impossible to determine the dispersal or movement of clouds

I guess you can argue condensation got reversed and I remember that being listed on the general storm calculation page but that's still only Low 7-B (I think)

Upon further inspection, yeah, that definitely seems like what's happening here

 

[Chariot190]

So to confirm, we treat Stories as canon and kinship attacks as applicable?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So to confirm, we treat Stories as canon and kinship attacks as applicable?

As far as I know, everything in Monstsr Hunter is Canon unless noted otherwise.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[Sigilavox]

As far as I know, everything in Monstsr Hunter is Canon unless noted otherwise.

The movie-

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The movie-

Had a Crossover Event with World, so....

 

[DMUA]

which of us bit or will bite the bullet there

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Has anyone here even watched that movie? I haven't so IDK what even happens in it aside from a few stray moments

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Has anyone here even watched that movie? I haven't so IDK what even happens in it aside from a few stray moments

Spoiler: Spoliers, I guess?

Cliff-notes versions:

*There's a Kaiju sized Rathalos.

*Milla Jovovich gets isekai'ed to MH (specifically the new world).

*Her fellow military friends get killed by Black Diablos and a swarm of juvenile Nerscylla.

*The people of MH are rude and unsociable for some reason.

*MH animals are nigh-impervious to most modem day Earth weaponry.

*Gore Magala is used as sequel bait and appears at the very end (similar to Rhino in the Amazing Spider-Man 2).

*There's a little time travel involved (The movie takes place after the events of MHW and possibly Iceborne too but the in-game crossover takes place before the movie actually happens).

*This is objectively the best way to enjoy the movie without the movie length.

*Oh and the Handler dies.

Tl;dr It kinda messes up the scaling since a regular Earth human (albeit a military trained one) has the reflexes and physicality to keep up with MH animals and hunters with zero solid implication of getting amped.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Spoiler: Spoliers, I guess?

Cliff-notes versions:

*There's a Kaiju sized Rathalos.

*Milla Jovovich gets isekai'ed to MH (specifically the new world).

*Her fellow military friends get killed by Black Diablos and a swarm of juvenile Nerscylla.

*The people of MH are rude and unsociable for some reason.

*MH animals are nigh-impervious to most modem day Earth weaponry.

*Gore Magala is used as sequel bait and appears at the very end (similar to Rhino in the Amazing Spider-Man 2).

*There's a little time travel involved (The movie takes place after the events of MHW and possibly Iceborne too but the in-game crossover takes place before the movie actually happens).

*This is objectively the best way to enjoy the movie without the movie length.

*Oh and the Handler dies.

Tl;dr It kinda messes up the scaling since a regular Earth human (albeit a military trained one) has the reflexes and physicality to keep up with MH animals and hunters with zero solid implication of getting amped.

Bruh.

 

[DMUA]

Spoiler: Spoliers, I guess?

*Oh and the Handler dies.

I think this is easily the most offensive part

 

[Sigilavox]

I think this is easily the most offensive part

According to the kill count video, the Handler isn't actually shown to die in the movie. It was probably just an inside joke on the animator's part.

 

[DMUA]

good

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Handler gets so much disrespect like wtf

not even a bad character, the hate on her is mad overblown

 

[DMUA]

I will admit the Guildmarm has more generally entertaining dialogue and I'm neutral on the Handler but I really appreciate just the detail that she has dark bags under her eyes

Makes her feel less like just "girl that tells you to do things that she will praise you for accomplishing" and more an actual person who's just enthusiastic about her job

Which is probably an opinion I only really formulated when my dad complained about it as apart of her look

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

It's been a long time for me but wasn't there a moment in 4U where the Guildmarm was thirsting after a Brachydios and being in love with it?

 

[DMUA]

I'm pretty sure that's mostly a gag but yeah that is really funny, she asks you to send a love letter and it turns out to just be a hunt for a brachydios

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Just looked it up, she still exhibits her obsession with Brachydios in Generations so idk if it's a one-off joke lmao, might just be a consistent character trait for her

 

[DMUA]

I didn't necessarily say it was just a one-off joke, I just don't think her objective is ********** and instead she's just being really weird about saying that specific monster is cool

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Ah, my b. Misinterpreted what you said lol

Also I never knew until just now that her name is actually Sophia, apparently

 

[DMUA]

BIG

BIG

TWO MONSTER HUNTER CHARACTERS HAVE ACTUAL NAMES

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

The Moga Sweetheart is Aisha which is honestly just so good

Seems like a surprising number of MH characters pre-Rise actually have names that just don't come up lmao

 

[Sigilavox]

TWO MONSTER HUNTER CHARACTERS HAVE ACTUAL NAMES

Yeah, they confirmed the names of Aiden (Ace Cadet/Excitable A-Lister) and Julius (Ace Commander) in Iceborne's Fatalis update, as well as in the Legends of the Guild movie that came out about a year after that. Lea (Serious Handler)'s name was confirmed in this movie's casting at the same time as Aiden's was. Several other characters are also given names in the Legends movie.

Handler gets so much disrespect like wtf

And yeah, I also think the Handler's hate is really overblown. I admit that I don't super like it when she runs off ahead into dangerous territory, but apparently people don't mind that the Serious Handler canonically does that all the time as well (in-game dialogue), and honestly it only happens like, three times out of dozens upon dozens of canonical quests, not counting situations where the issue isn't even with her decision-making specifically.

It becomes apparent throughout her dialogue, investigation scenes, and even idle animations, that the Handler works really, really hard, all the time. So much so that she's apparently the only one in the entire Commision who can keep up with your hunter's similarly insane skill levels to handle the flood of constant quests you're always going on, because your abilities are just that much in demand among five fleets containing some of the best hunters in the Guild. She's literally always working on paperwork one way or the other, and a ton of conclusions about the data you find she comes up with on her own - do note that the First Fleeters, like the Tracker, had been investigating the New World's secrets for over four decades, while you and the Handler realize the entire system of the Rotten Vale by yourselves in, like, two quests. Hell, the way it's presented, she might even have figured it out at camp at the same time you fought the Odogaron. No wonder the Commander notes that you guys were specifically assigned together as the cream of the crop of your respective fields.

And she still finds the time to conduct a personal research project to record every edible item in the entire New World as a passion project and heads out into the field directly for all of her (and your) research, proving that she doesn't just push papers, but actually knows her stuff when it comes to the ecologies of this world. The Deviljho example is not even applicable... like, for anything, since Deviljho, a land-dwelling species, had never, ever been sighted in the New World before that literal day.

In comparison, the Serious Handler admits to feeling relieved she doesn't have to be your handler all the time after your three-quest jaunt, because of how insanely fast you work and how much paperwork your investigations turn out. Put together with the Handler tackling everything with enthusiasm and a smile, yeah. She's built differently.

The whole "You can do it! We can do it!" quote never even struck me as something odd until I heard other people bringing it up. It still doesn't even work as an argument, because it was very much a "final boss" thing to say, and you two had been working on this whole investigation together the entire time, one that concludes with Xeno'jiiva.

Do I think her Iceborne Velkhana-shard story and pseudo-familial(?) relationship with the Tracker could have been better realized? Yeah, sure. But overall, I like the Handler; she's hardworking, good-humored, and thoughtful. Literally any issues with her personality or behavior I feel can be ascribed to the medium, genre, storylines, and characters that Monster Hunter games have been putting out, not her specifically.

Edit: As an addendum, she's literally the Sapphire Star of the Handlers, as far above them (and basically everyone in the whole Commission in sheer work ethic) as you are to every other hunter. Hell, if not for you, she'd probably be handling several top-rank hunters at once, and still would be unable to perform at her full potential due to being limited by the hunting personnel of her time. Imagine having two agents always ready to deploy anywhere on the continent and be fully confident in their ability to both take down any threat, and fully identify and record everything that happened in the nearest twenty miles while dropping a new fully-functioning campsite in an unknown land. After the Shara Ishvalda hype speech, to the Commission, there really was nothing you two couldn't do together. You're just as much a force of nature as the Everwyrm who could raze ecosystems to their foundation. The Handler is the only person who is capable of enabling this force of nature to be deployed as efficiently and effectively as it is.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

There was a video made by SuperRAD on Youtube talking about the Handler and where people's dislike for her comes from, and it does a good job imo of illuminating that some of the points people use against her make, like, very little sense when you remember the context and actual events in the story, I highly recommend the video honestly

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, they confirmed the names of Aiden (Ace Cadet/Excitable A-Lister) and Julius (Ace Commander) in Iceborne's Fatalis update, as well as in the Legends of the Guild movie that came out about a year after that. Lea (Serious Handler)'s name was confirmed in this movie's casting at the same time as Aiden's was. Several other characters are also given names in the Legends movie.


And yeah, I also think the Handler's hate is really overblown. I admit that I don't super like it when she runs off ahead into dangerous territory, but apparently people don't mind that the Serious Handler canonically does that all the time as well (in-game dialogue), and honestly it only happens like, three times out of dozens upon dozens of canonical quests, not counting situations where the issue isn't even with her decision-making specifically.

It becomes apparent throughout her dialogue, investigation scenes, and even idle animations, that the Handler works really, really hard, all the time. So much so that she's apparently the only one in the entire Commision who can keep up with your hunter's similarly insane skill levels to handle the flood of constant quests you're always going on, because your abilities are just that much in demand among five fleets containing some of the best hunters in the Guild. She's literally always working on paperwork one way or the other, and a ton of conclusions about the data you find she comes up with on her own - do note that the First Fleeters, like the Tracker, had been investigating the New World's secrets for over four decades, while you and the Handler realize the entire system of the Rotten Vale by yourselves in, like, two quests. Hell, the way it's presented, she might even have figured it out at camp at the same time you fought the Odogaron. No wonder the Commander notes that you guys were specifically assigned together as the cream of the crop of your respective fields.

And she still finds the time to conduct a personal research project to record every edible item in the entire New World as a passion project and heads out into the field directly for all of her (and your) research, proving that she doesn't just push papers, but actually knows her stuff when it comes to the ecologies of this world. The Deviljho example is not even applicable... like, for anything, since Deviljho, a land-dwelling species, had never, ever been sighted in the New World before that literal day.

In comparison, the Serious Handler admits to feeling relieved she doesn't have to be your handler all the time after your three-quest jaunt, because of how insanely fast you work and how much paperwork your investigations turn out. Put together with the Handler tackling everything with enthusiasm and a smile, yeah. She's built differently.

The whole "You can do it! We can do it!" quote never even struck me as something odd until I heard other people bringing it up. It still doesn't even work as an argument, because it was very much a "final boss" thing to say, and you two had been working on this whole investigation together the entire time, one that concludes with Xeno'jiiva.

Do I think her Iceborne Velkhana-shard story and pseudo-familial(?) relationship with the Tracker could have been better realized? Yeah, sure. But overall, I like the Handler; she's hardworking, good-humored, and thoughtful. Literally any issues with her personality or behavior I feel can be ascribed to the medium, genre, storylines, and characters that Monster Hunter games have been putting out, not her specifically.

Edit: As an addendum, she's literally the Sapphire Star of the Handlers, as far above them (and basically everyone in the whole Commission in sheer work ethic) as you are to every other hunter. Hell, if not for you, she'd probably be handling several top-rank hunters at once, and still would be unable to perform at her full potential due to being limited by the hunting personnel of her time. Imagine having two agents always ready to deploy anywhere on the continent and be fully confident in their ability to both take down any threat, and fully identify and record everything that happened in the nearest twenty miles while dropping a new fully-functioning campsite in an unknown land. After the Shara Ishvalda hype speech, to the Commission, there really was nothing you two couldn't do together. You're just as much a force of nature as the Everwyrm who could raze ecosystems to their foundation. The Handler is the only person who is capable of enabling this force of nature to be deployed as efficiently and effectively as it is.

Yeah, the Sapphire Star and the Handler have a literal God-Tier Work Ethic and are unironically Big Brained as ****. The Deviljho example is such an unfair thing to bring up against her when it's, as you said, a land dwelling species that has never showcased the ability to swim, let alone for god knows how long the trip to the New World is, just for it to be spotted for the first time on said continent in all of recorded history right when she's doing her own solo thing while you guys were technically on break from just having beaten Xeno'jiiva.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I see this CRT has derailed into waifu discussion and character philosophy.

I like it!

 

[DMUA]

Yeah I didn't even realize this was a CRT until halfway into the conversation, maybe we need our own handlers to make sure CRTs get through

Anyways, I don't think we have that much to go over besides just changing the pages, I may do that assuming nobody raises objections by tomorrow

From my understanding

Anything without proper, direct showings should be at least High 6-C, and then High 8-C (Shagaru, Gold Rathian and Silver Rathalos, Valstrax, Raging Brachydios)

Deviants should be 7-B from Hellblade Glavinus' mountain incinerating statement

Vaal Hazak and Chameleos should be (probably) just be High 6-C since they're fought right alongside elder Dragons with direct showings

There are a bunch of monsters brought up in the OP which haven't really been gone over that much and now is probably the time to go over them

 

[Sigilavox]

Anyways, I don't think we have that much to go over besides just changing the pages, I may do that assuming nobody raises objections by tomorrow

I'd be fine with all of those changes.

Akantor and Ukanlos are both fought after Kushala and give higher HRP so they should also be High 6-C if we use either of those logics as proper justification. Amatsu is a final boss of a game without Kushala, but is fought alongside Akantor and Ukanlos in MHGU. That's the only point of connection we have, so if we say it's comparable to Aka/Uka, then we can give it High 6-C too. Those three are pretty safe additions.

What we haven't covered: Ceadeus, Lao-Shan Lung, Dah'ren Mohran, Jhen Mohran, Yama Tsukami, Ahtal-Ka, and Nakarkos.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think Nakarkos has at least one more thing to look at, although making a calc/judgement call on that seems hard. When it dies, it always fires off one last beam of Dragon Element that basically completely tears apart it's own lair, which is supposed to be massive. If anything can be found for Nakarkos, I personally think it's applicable to Ceadeus considering Nakarkos has never been recorded killing adult individuals, only Ceadeus pups according to Banned Lagiacrus (If Nakarkos was stronger than Ceadeus, there'd probably be recorded cases of adults being killed by them)

For Ahtal-Ka, I assume that, could possibly have two ratings? One for it's main body, and one for the mechanized shell that it pilots (what those ratings are who knows, since we don't have a lot of clear info atm)

For Dah'ren Mohran, according to its twitter thread from BannedLagiacrus, it's canon that the Guild makes hunters do "Special Quests" before being allowed to hunt Dah'ren Mohran. If we could figure out what these special quests are referring to, we could scale Dah'ren up from those monsters (And then likely scale Dah'ren to Jhen since the two so presumably similar due to being related), but it's still kinda vague and IDK if anything concrete can come of it

Yama Tsukami is a weird one lmao

Lao-Shun-Lung is stated to destroy mountains that are in its way so that's possibly something lol

 

[Sigilavox]

Yama Tsukami is a weird one lmao

Yeah, as stated earlier, Yama canonically has a one-shot attack and has to be fought after White Fatalis, who doesn't have a one-shot. So... 5-A Yama Tsukami?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, as stated earlier, Yama canonically has a one-shot attack and has to be fought after White Fatalis, who doesn't have a one-shot. So... 5-A Yama Tsukami?

Yama is so ******* weird....