Morgoth vs Alduin

[Iisdude1]

Alduins nature is that he is the end of time itself, morgoth's knowledge comes from the nature of the universe, he can also see the past and future though that won't be any help here.

Even if the precog does not work Morgoth can instantly use his concept hax and the only thing conceptual he resists is bend will because three mortals were able to create a shout that forces mortality on him. Morgoth will realize bending his will won't work so he'll go fore some other ability.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Alduins nature is that he is the end of time itself, morgoth's knowledge comes from the nature of the universe, he can also see the past and future though that won't be any help here.

Even if the precog does not work Morgoth can instantly use his concept hax and the only thing conceptual he resists is bend will because three mortals were able to create a shout that forces mortality on him. Morgoth will realize bending his will won't work so he'll go fore some other ability.

That more or less speak for the power of the Three Tongues' conceptual manipulation rather than Alduin's weakness. Thu'um users regularly kill each other with the thu'um even when they have conceptual resistance. So Alduin being affected by Dragonrend doesn't really prove anything.

And the moment Morgoth realise that his mind hax doesn't work and tries to go with other abilities, he will already be void haxxed.

 

[Iisdude1]

Or they just don't have a resistance? I don't The Dovahkiin doesn't influence the tones of reality with a simple fire shout, dragons fighting is just them having a verbal debate. It doesn't sound like they are having a full on conceptual war like the ainur in the ainulindale.

 

[Iisdude1]

It is most likely inconclusive or alduin eats him

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Or they just don't have a resistance? I don't The Dovahkiin doesn't influence the tones of reality with a simple fire shout, dragons fighting is just them having a verbal debate. It doesn't sound like they are having a full on conceptual war like the ainur in the ainulindale.

Except he does. Tonal magic is literally manipulating the tones of reality which make up anything from a simple grass to a universal concept. This is from Alduin's page.

"Through Tonal Magic such as the Thu'um, he can control and influence the underlying tones which compose the fundamental layer of reality, changing and adding to the Song of Creation itself".

Of course not all thu'um are conceptual in nature, but Alduin being affected by Dragonrend doesn't mean that he doesn't have a resistance to it, it just means that the Three Tongues' shout is more powerful than his resistance, since thu'um fight is all about one's voice overpowering another.

 

[Iisdude1]

Proof that Thu'um users can resist each other's conceptual manipulation? Paarthurnax taught the how to use the voice and they rebelled against the dragon, if every Thu'um user can manipulate concepts they would have stomped the nords. It seems like only high tiered users can use the conceptual stuff.

 

[Iisdude1]

Unless you want to say the nords and the dragons who are like humans to these two characters, resist conceptual hax and the dragons have conceptual manipulation that is just as good as Alduin's.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Proof that Thu'um users can resist each other's conceptual manipulation? Paarthurnax taught the how to use the voice and they rebelled against the dragon, if every Thu'um user can manipulate concepts they would have stomped the nords. It seems like only high tiered users can use the conceptual stuff.

The proof is the fact that every single thu'um users fight and kill each other with the thu'um. I'm not saying that every single one of them has conceptual manipulation, but other dragons has shown an ability to manipulate concepts such as time and mind, and every single thu'um that you learn, you resist it's effect and yet these dragons are killed and still can be affected by other thu'um users' shouts.

"The more fanciful tales have them summoning storms and even stopping time." - There Be Dragons

And if we are still going to say that he doesn't resist it, then the moment that Morgoth realise his mind manipulation doesn't work and tries to go for other options, he would either already be void haxxed, Power nulled, or just gets AP stomped by Alduin who is at the very least 22x above baseline.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

For everything i have seen i think i will vote alduin.

 

[Iisdude1]

Stopping time and creating storms isn't conceptual manipulation. Has there ever been a battle between two thu'um users where they changed the song of creation in the lore? I would like some links before I believe that. The only shouts that are Conceptual show so far are be d will and dragonrend.

Also it seems like Morgoth can procog him since he is the same acasuality type as Alduin and for being able to understand completely foreign concepts.

 

[Iisdude1]

If they can kill each other with their thu'um then they shouldn't have resistance to it, it took three low 2-Cs just to come up with a shout that could remove dragons of their immortality.

It contradicts what you're saying because none of the other low tier thu'um users that I've seen can actually kill each other with concepts, just affect possibilities to help them, which is like that but to a lesser extent.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

You can literally check every single lore about Tonal Magic. Tonal Magic is literally the user singing to the Song of Creation to change or manipulate it. Even the most simple shout, like Throw Voice manipulates the Song of Creation. Some of these produce simple effect, like Fire Breath, while some produce effect that can alter concept, like Bend Will, Dragonrend and Slow Time (which in Morgoth Vs Dovahkiin match was already established that it was time manipulation on a conceptual level). Every single battle between thu'um users are them manipulating the Song of Creation.

And having the certain acausality type doesn't grant you the ability to precog those who also have the same acausality type as you.

And again, the moment that Morgoth realise his mind manipulation doesn't work and tries to do something else, he would either already be power nulled, void haxxed or AP-stomped by Alduin.

Anyway, it's clear that we won't reach an agreement, so let'just agree to disagree.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Stopping time and creating storms isn't conceptual manipulation. Has there ever been a battle between two thu'um users where they changed the song of creation in the lore? I would like some links before I believe that. The only shouts that are Conceptual show so far are be d will and dragonrend.
Also it seems like Morgoth can procog him since he is the same acasuality type as Alduin and for being able to understand completely foreign concepts.

There is a story about how tiber septim when he was on the throne and mad and he screamed he erased colors as in the concepts of them (normal shouting) tho i could be remembering it wrong so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Iisdude1]

When did a low tier thuum users actually completely alter a concept?im asking this out of curiosity. There are low tier thuum users right, that's how it works? I still has to shout to use those abilities and he either has to close in on Melkor, he should have a pretty large window of time there to come up with something else.

 

[Zhepar]

i would check https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._On_the_Feats_of_Mortals,_Monsters,_and_Mages, there's thu um feats there

 

[Iisdude1]

Thanks

 

[Iisdude1]

I get that precognition shouldn't work on a non Linear because everything would be fractured and out of place, why couldn't one 4d being precog another when they both clearly are just higher beings in nature.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

I've already linked you an in-game book that told us about dragons who are capable of using the Slow Time shout, which is a time manipulation at a conceptual level. And you are misunderstanding my argument, I've never said that any thu'um user can alter concept, what I meant is that some thu'um users who can alter concept regularly kill each other and resist each other shout if their voice is strong enough. Just like how Jūrgen Windcaller was unfazed by his disciples shouting at him for days.

And Alduin just need to think and shout, while Morgoth need to uses his mind manipulation, realise it doesn't work, and then uses another different method which we don't even.know if it will work or not.

 

[Iisdude1]

Morgoth can completely alter concepts and fashion them from nothing, that sounds better than most if not all of the thu'um feats in that blog. The resistance wouldn't be powerful enough to resist his affects.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Morgoth can completely alter concepts and fashion them from nothing, that sounds better than most if not all of the thu'um feats in that blog. The resistance wouldn't be powerful enough to resist his affects.

They are both type 2, it's just that Morgoth have more ways to use his conceptual ability. It has nothing to do with potency and more has something to do with how the ability is used. And I would argue that being able to change the color of the Moons, which are a 5-dimensional realms is a much more impressive feat.

 

[Iisdude1]

That's what I meant. That last one sounds like a range feat, but I'm not sure if that's how it works with conceptual manipulation.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

That's what I meant. That last one sounds like a range feat, but I'm not sure if that's how it works with conceptual manipulation.

No, you are not affecting a 5-dimensional realm with greater range, you need a greater potency for that. The thu'um has shown far greater potency than what Morgoth is capable off.

 

[Iisdude1]

5D means greater range though, and yes it would have more potency. Morgoth can just use his to more varied degrees though, since he can manipulate any concept like nothing.

He can also instantly use his hax like alduin, since when he creates the concept of discord, it says it straight away aroused around him. This also affect the timeless Halls when the two themes clashed, he has the same range as Alduin.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

5D doesn't just mean greater range, it can also be greater Potency.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

5D means greater range though, and yes it would have more potency. Morgoth can just use his to more varied degrees though, since he can manipulate any concept like nothing.

He can also instantly use his hax like alduin, since when he creates the concept of discord, it says it straight away aroused around him. This also affect the timeless Halls when the two themes clashed, he has the same range as Alduin.

So we agree that the thu'um has shown a greater potency than what Morgoth is capable of? Because Morgoth has never manipulate a 5-dimensional space or universe before.

 

[Iisdude1]

Yes, although changing color isn't combat applicable, Should that scale to the other shouts?

 

[Waria_Kambang]

It depends on the user. In the case of dragons and Dragonborns, it depends on their souls, the more powerful your soul is, the stronger your thu'um become.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

And since Alduin has the 3rd strongest Dragon Soul ever...

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Also some user can come up with new shouts on the fly like alduin.

 

[Iisdude1]

4th strongest, he is below Talos as well. I get the idea though.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

So? Who do you think win this fight?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I go for alduin here.

 

[Lapsad]

Black gecko FRA

 

[Waria_Kambang]

I vote Alduin for my own reasonings.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Bump

 

[Ishneray]

Morgoth.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Bump.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

So, what is the reasoning you guys are voting Alduin again

 

[Iisdude1]

Eating Melkor before he decides to use abilities that work. And that he resists concept ma ipulation. however thu'um users are only able to kill each other by creating a new shout, so I'm not sure he would resist every 4D ability simply because two won't work on him. I'm also pretty sure his resistances comes from the dovakiin's status effects, and that's only after he has his timeless nature taken away. I think even normal shouts like fire breath work on him.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

however thu'um users are only able to kill each other by creating a new shout

Thats not really true (tho i might have miss someone saying that) what i said is that users (not all of them mostly those that are the higest) of the Thu-um can create new shouts and alduin can do so on the fly.