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Murder Drones Downgrades
- Thread starter ActuallySpaceMan42
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- murder drones
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Lou_change
He/Him- 11,164
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Do they have to actively maintain the process?
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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It depends on the power, the way it's done, and the context, but yes, I think one of the conditions is that it has to be maintained.
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Yeah, OP makes sense.
Lou_change
He/Him- 11,164
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I am talking about this specific feat because that would mean the can't just release the energy to destroy the universe all at once they are technically releasing a fraction of what would be required to do it at any given time
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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I’ve already explained why it’s possible and how it’s possible in my long post. First of all, there are several easter eggs that show this. But also, one of the most interesting ones is the fact that the Absolute Solver is linked to Albert Einstein’s equations, and therefore to the infinite extension of the universe. This means that the Null could extend throughout the entire universe. This is confirmed by Liam Vickers, who says that she can destroy reality and the world. This is also confirmed in other easter eggs, such as the posters.
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Kirua29
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But thank you for your remark, I’ll improve this point since I hadn’t explained it very well.
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- Thread starter
- #89
@Vietthai96 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @FinePoint
The pages of debating are mostly just an interpretation disagreement, and haven't changed the OP.
The pages of debating are mostly just an interpretation disagreement, and haven't changed the OP.
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Makes sense to me.
Though, assuming policy isn't an issue, I'd be fine with keeping a Possibly Universe Level if other knowledgeable members really support it.
Universal destruction is something I'd generally consider significant even over 87 days. 87 years would definitely be pushing it though for our purposes.
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- #91
If it really is 87 days (Which I'm doubting), I would still recommend a proper calc to get an exact value.
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It doesn't make sense to be 87 years because of the poster, most countdown posters are usually for counting down days rather than years. If it includes counting down years there would be more digits and the setting would be like "XXy XXm XXd". It only makes sense for 2 digit poster to be counting days.
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You still need to make calcs for those 87 days, you only get rating if you wipe out the universe in a single strike, even two strikes is enough to not land you in 3-A rating let alone 87 days overtime of universal destruction. Unless the universe is too big thus the calcs still yield universal result or universe is infinite
Yeah, i agree with the OP
Kirua29
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Honestly, I don't understand. Could you please read my debunk here?
Murder Drones Downgrades
Agree with everything except how 3-A gets changed, it seems like you should just slap on an ED for it instead.
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It's supposed to be an overtime feat, and thus it isn't Universe level. That being said, given Universe level starts at 2.825e92 joules and 87 days is 7.517e6 seconds...Honestly, I don't understand. Could you please read my debunk here?
Murder Drones Downgrades
Agree with everything except how 3-A gets changed, it seems like you should just slap on an ED for it instead.vsbattles.com
2.825e92/7.517e6 is 3.7581482e85 joules, or Multi-Galaxy level
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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The problem with this calculation is that the null is not a bomb, and this is a calculation for an explosion...
Your calculation assumes a constant release of energy over 87 days, as if it were an explosion stretched out over time. But that’s not what’s happening here. We’re talking about a cosmic void that grows exponentially (the Null) until it engulfs the entire universe, this isn’t an energy attack that can be measured in joules per second, it’s an effect of reality itself being erased.Trying to reduce it to a linear power output in joules per second is fundamentally incorrect, because it’s the very structure of the universe being erased, not simply burned or blown up.So your ‘Multi-Galaxy level’ argument doesn’t hold: this is an act of universal annihilation on a cosmological scale, regardless of how long it takes.And on top of that, saying ‘it’s not Universe Level because it’s slow’ is wrong.
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- Thread starter
- #97
No, you're wrong, and you're continuing to be wrong. If you keep being stubborn people are just going to ignore you.
Kirua29
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I’m open to being corrected, but only if someone provides an actual counter-argument based on the tiering system or scaling logic.
Just saying 'you’re wrong' without addressing the point doesn't really help the discussion.
The original point I made is that 3-A tiering is based on the scale of the effect, not the speed at which the destruction occurs
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I am going to tell you this, as simply as possible.
If I destroy every planet in the universe, one by one, I'm still planet-level. If I destroy them all at once, I'm above planet level.
Slowly devouring everything in the universe over a period of time, REGARDLESS of if it destroys the universe in the end, IS NOT universe-level.
This is our wiki standards, you have been told multiple times, by multiple people. I'm done replying to you after this.
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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You're confusing "an accumulation of small feats" with "a single, unified effect on a cosmic scale."
The VS Battles Wiki does NOT require the destruction to be instantaneous in order to qualify as Universe level (3-A).
The tier 3-A definition clearly states:
“Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space at least equivalent in size to the observable universe [...] OR significantly affect a 3-D universe or pocket dimension of comparable size.”
There is no mention of “instantaneously” in that definition.
“Significantly affect” can absolutely refer to a progressive process, as long as it comes from a single continuous effect.
The Null is exactly that: a unified, expanding phenomenon of annihilation. It is not a series of disconnected attacks or feats, it's one singular effect that erases the universe over time. That fits the 3-A standard.
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- #101
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I agree with this take for this own. But may need more time to evaluate rest.
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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You're right that Attack Potency is normally determined by the energy of a single attack, and The Null does fall under Destructive Capacity, but it's not a conventional energy-based feat like an explosion or energy beam.
The Null is a unique, continuous effect that progressively annihilates the universe. While it isn't a burst, it's still a single, unified process. That means its Attack Potency can still be scaled to 3-A because the result is a full universal destruction caused by a singular phenomenon.
So yes, it’s DC. But no, it doesn’t need to be an instant energy output to qualify as Universe level. It just needs to be able to destroy a universe-sized space through a single cohesive effect, which The Null absolutely does.
the effect is not based on the “release” of energy, but on a self-sufficient “concept eater” property
The Null is a unique, continuous effect that progressively annihilates the universe. While it isn't a burst, it's still a single, unified process. That means its Attack Potency can still be scaled to 3-A because the result is a full universal destruction caused by a singular phenomenon.
So yes, it’s DC. But no, it doesn’t need to be an instant energy output to qualify as Universe level. It just needs to be able to destroy a universe-sized space through a single cohesive effect, which The Null absolutely does.
the effect is not based on the “release” of energy, but on a self-sufficient “concept eater” property
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It kind of depends on context, if it's a continuous laser beam, we usually measure watts or Joules/s if it is longer than a second. But a single omnidirectional explosion that just has a delayed velocity would still effectively be a 3-A explosion, made that argument back when Omega Shenron used to be 3-A and before 2-C scaling was introduced.
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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Thanks for the clarification, Medeus. That’s exactly what I was trying to argue, The Null isn’t a burst or beam, but a single continuous effect that spreads and consumes the universe.
So by your logic, since it’s a unified, omnidirectional phenomenon with a delayed expansion but total universal impact, it would still qualify as 3-A. Appreciate you weighing in!
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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Im ok to say The Null has hax-like properties, it's a non-standard, self-propagating void that erases existence. But that doesn't mean it's only hax.
Since its effect destroys matter, energy, and law across an entire universe-sized space, it also qualifies as a form of Destructive Capacity. It's both — a conceptual hax and a universal-scale destructive effect.
VS Battles treats large-scale reality-erasure as DC when it affects the environment directly, and The Null does exactly that. So classifying it as 3-A is fully consistent with the system.
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It doesn't need to be instantaneous, but it need to be a single "strike"
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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Question: if a Null expands throughout the entire universe, would that still count as a single attack?
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Vague, depend on how it show the attack, statement
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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In simple terms, null is a phenomenon that is omnidirectional and would spread throughout the universe in 87 days. It is exponential (confirmed by the absolute solver), which claims to be the exponential end of the universe, so it goes faster and faster. The Null is the method of corruption/assimilation of the absolute solver...
the Absolute Solver is linked to Albert Einstein’s equations, it’s the fundamental form of general relativity, used to describe the curvature of space-time. If the Einstein field equations (specifically the Friedmann equations) are solved under certain conditions, such as negative energy density or a reversal of cosmic expansion, they predict a scenario where the universe collapses in on itself, known as a Big Crunch or cosmic collapse (NASA, Britannica)
According to Glitcht in leaks and official interface data, the Absolute Solver has shown the capability to alter any parameter within its universe, including fundamental constants like mass, scale, and energy.
If it can freely modify those core variables, then theoretically it could reproduce the same effects as negative energy density, which in cosmology leads to a universal collapse or “Big Crunch” scenario.
So, this is clearly a reference to extreme gravitational or universal-scale destruction.
This is confirmed by all the other easter eggs, which, as a reminder, are canon.
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Yeah, no, look like Environmental Destruction to me, which can cause chain reaction which lead to Big Crunch
Mythic381
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An expanding attack that would take a long time before expanding into the full universe, not really universe level.
Mythic381
He/Him- 2,433
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Instantaneous release isn’t required. The point is that a single attack must generate enough energy in one instance to destroy the universe, rather than distributing that energy over periods of time.
Kirua29
He/Him- 393
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87 days is a short period of time unlike the real phenomenon which would take thousands of years and yet could be considered as a universe level and if you disagree with me that would mean that for you the ultimate threat to our universe would not be at the universal level.
because of the time it takes but you said yourself there's no precise time to define an attack as being Universe level just a single attack, I just wanted to get you to say that, now you can't contradict me without acting in bad faith.
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If we determine it's likely days then I think this is a reasonable compromise as an exact value.
That said, as others have pointed out, what matters is that it's a single attack, not necessarily how long it takes that one attack to propagate.
In real life, a shock-wave at the center of the observable universe with enough energy to destroy it would still take at least 13 billion years (or 93 billion if you account for expansion) to propagate through it and finish destroying it.
So given the relatively short time-frame for what you would expect of such a feat, I'd still be fine with a straight-up Universe Level in that instance.
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Mythic381
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I'm talking about the period of time taken to destroy the universe, 87 would be considered long for it to scale to universe level via energy output. Yes, it is universe level, just universe level overtime, not per energy output.
If it's clearly distributing that energy overtime then the attack isn't universe level per attack, the solver can't output the energy all at once, it outputs it in periods of time rather all at once, which is why it's not universe level per attack but overtime.
Arkansalter2
He/Him- 8,182
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Theres a couple of things one can consider.
You can either
A: Do a "possibly up to 3-A over time"
B: Do the actual value of the multi galaxy simple calc
C: Slap on an environmental destruction onto it.
But the absolute solver being just straight up ap is not even combat applicable and thus, should not be considered, especially since the 3-A value is not in a single strike, and is overtime like much of everyone else said.
You can either
A: Do a "possibly up to 3-A over time"
B: Do the actual value of the multi galaxy simple calc
C: Slap on an environmental destruction onto it.
But the absolute solver being just straight up ap is not even combat applicable and thus, should not be considered, especially since the 3-A value is not in a single strike, and is overtime like much of everyone else said.
Mythic381
He/Him- 2,433
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I think environmental destruction makes the most sense as it doesn't seem combat-applicable.
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