Murder Drones Downgrades

[Arkansalter2]

I think environmental destruction makes the most sense as it doesn't seem combat-applicable.

Seems fair.

 

[Kirua29]

Yeah, no, look like Environmental Destruction to me, which can cause chain reaction which lead to Big Crunch

I almost forgot, I will now demonstrate how this applies to combat, if nothingness can spread throughout the universe in 87 days.

It is said that the observable universe has a radius of 93 billion light-years.
We know that it will take Absolute Solver exactly 87 days to destroy the entire universe.
93,000,000,000 al / 87 days (7.517e+6 seconds) = 390,436,065,385c (390 billion x FTL; Massively FTL+)
This means that nothingness is capable of traveling at a speed 390 billion times faster than light to achieve its goal: to assimilate the entire universe and reduce it to a void where it would be the only thing left.

This cannot be considered simple environmental destruction, as few characters could escape such a speed of expansion.

 

[Kirua29]

If it's clearly distributing that energy overtime then the attack isn't universe level per attack, the solver can't output the energy all at once, it outputs it in periods of time rather all at once, which is why it's not universe level per attack but overtime.

No, you don't understand, it's the void that spreads throughout the universe, leaving nothing behind.

 

[Arkansalter2]

93,000,000,000 al / 87 days (7.517e+6 seconds) = 390,436,065,385c (390 billion x FTL; Massively FTL+)
This means that nothingness is capable of traveling at a speed 390 billion times faster than light to achieve its goal: to assimilate the entire universe and reduce it to a void where it would be the only thing left.

Ok that's speed. Cool. But..

This cannot be considered simple environmental destruction, as few characters could escape such a speed of expansion.

No, you don't understand, it's the void that spreads throughout the universe, leaving nothing behind.

The amount of time it takes to achieve said AP is far too long for it to be considered usable as AP in the first place. Environmental Destruction seems to be more legitimate.
Hell, if you even use absolute solver in versus battles, I doubt any versus battle is gonna take 87 damn days for a winner, let alone 1 or even over 12 hours when a party is facing off against a murder drones character. It's just straight up irrelevant.

 

[Kirua29]

B: Do the actual value of the multi galaxy simple calc

His calculation is off-topic, he calculated it as if it were a bomb, except that “nothingness” isn’t a bomb; it’s an exponential end of the universe, something that expands and leaves only emptiness.

C: Slap on an environmental destruction onto it.

But the absolute solver being just straight up ap is not even combat applicable and thus, should not be considered, especially since the 3-A value is not in a single strike, and is overtime like much of everyone else said.

Two things: the null is a big crunch, so by definition universal destruction would occur in a single attack.

I will now demonstrate how this applies to combat, if nothingness can spread throughout the universe in 87 days.

It is said that the observable universe has a radius of 93 billion light-years.
We know that it will take Absolute Solver exactly 87 days to destroy the entire universe.
93,000,000,000 al / 87 days (7.517e+6 seconds) = 390,436,065,385c (390 billion x FTL; Massively FTL+)
This means that nothingness is capable of traveling at a speed 390 billion times faster than light to achieve its goal: to assimilate the entire universe and reduce it to a void where it would be the only thing left.

This cannot be considered simple environmental destruction, as few characters could escape such a speed of expansion.

 

[Mythic381]

I almost forgot, I will now demonstrate how this applies to combat, if nothingness can spread throughout the universe in 87 days.

It is said that the observable universe has a radius of 93 billion light-years.
We know that it will take Absolute Solver exactly 87 days to destroy the entire universe.
93,000,000,000 al / 87 days (7.517e+6 seconds) = 390,436,065,385c (390 billion x FTL; Massively FTL+)
This means that nothingness is capable of traveling at a speed 390 billion times faster than light to achieve its goal: to assimilate the entire universe and reduce it to a void where it would be the only thing left.

This cannot be considered simple environmental destruction, as few characters could escape such a speed of expansion.

What does speed have to do with the argument that it's environmental destruction???

No, you don't understand, it's the void that spreads throughout the universe, leaving nothing behind.

Again, it still takes 87 days for it to spread across the entire universe, it "leaving nothing behind" doesn't concern my point, I don't see why you're just added unnecessary stuff. So again, it takes time for it to spread across the universe, ergo it's not Universe level at once and isn't combat-applicable.

 

[Kirua29]

The amount of time it takes to achieve said AP is far too long for it to be considered usable as AP in the first place. Environmental Destruction seems to be more legitimate.
Hell, if you even use absolute solver in versus battles, I doubt any versus battle is gonna take 87 damn days for a winner, let alone 1 or even over 12 hours when a party is facing off against a murder drones character. It's just straight up irrelevant.

I disagree, because drones in MD are not exhaustible, so if it encounters an opponent that is also not exhaustible, but logically neither can gain the upper hand over the other, to the point where it could take months, Cyn or Uzi would have time to destroy the universe.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Two things: the null is a big crunch, so by definition universal destruction would occur in a single attack.

You're making it more verbose does not change that it's just environmental destruction.
Hell, if it starts from an extremely small point that is not even universal level, then why bother?

 

[Kirua29]

What does speed have to do with the argument that it's environmental destruction???

Because if null is not classified as ap, then the debaters will not take this into account at all.

 

[Kirua29]

You're making it more verbose does not change that it's just environmental destruction.
Hell, if it starts from an extremely small point that is not even universal level, then why bother?

That was for clarification.

 

[Kirua29]

Again, it still takes 87 days for it to spread across the entire universe, it "leaving nothing behind" doesn't concern my point, I don't see why you're just added unnecessary stuff. So again, it takes time for it to spread across the universe, ergo it's not Universe level at once and isn't combat-applicable.

A real big crunch would take 93 trillion years to destroy the universe, except that Cyn's only takes 87 days, so to say that it's not universal level would be like saying that the big crunch principle is not universal, I think you can understand why it's ridiculous.

 

[Vietthai96]

to assimilate the entire universe and reduce it to a void where it would be the only thing left.

sound like hax

also, even if you only have planetary AP, if your omnidirection blast have speed, time and range to spread, it can still reduce the universe into a void, like i said, it should be a single strike that contain the enough power to destroy the universe in one go

 

[Arkansalter2]

I disagree, because drones in MD are not exhaustible, so if it encounters an opponent that is also not exhaustible, but logically neither can gain the upper hand over the other, to the point where it could take months, Cyn or Uzi would have time to destroy the universe.

They are killable. Irrelevant. No versus battle would take anywhere over 12 hours until one or the other dies, get's BFRed long enough, or KOed.

sound like hax

NCA hax at that.

So, Kirua, pick one.

 

[Lilybitdun]

From an outside view of someone who hasn't watched the series, it seems pretty disingenuous to interpret the 87 being a timeframe that isn't days
It's clearly a similar visual gag to the "days since workplace incident" trope

 

[Mythic381]

A real big crunch would take 93 trillion years to destroy the universe, except that Cyn's only takes 87 days, so to say that it's not universal level would be like saying that the big crunch isn't universal level.

I feel like everything I've said before is being ignored. It's universe level overtime, but at once it isn't as it takes time to output the energy necessary to destroy the universe.

Because if null is not classified as ap, then the debaters will not take this into account at all.

That doesn't mean it can't be environmental destruction or non-combat applicable.

I disagree, because drones in MD are not exhaustible, so if it encounters an opponent that is also not exhaustible, but logically neither can gain the upper hand over the other, to the point where it could take months, Cyn or Uzi would have time to destroy the universe.

Don't drones sweat and require sleep and recharging? Also what's to say that the destruction wouldn't lead to Cyn or Uzi also dying? They don't scale durability-wise to a feat like that.

 

[Mythic381]

NCA hax at that.

Isn't environmental destruction considered hax?

 

[Arkansalter2]

I feel like everything I've said before is being ignored

He's genuinely stonewalling, which is punishable.

 

[Kirua29]

sound like hax

also, even if you only have planetary AP, if your omnidirection blast have speed, time and range to spread, it can still reduce the universe into a void, like i said, it should be a single strike that contain the enough power to destroy the universe in one go

Yes, Null has “hax” aspects (unconventional, informational). That doesn't prevent it from also being a Destructive Capacity. If a single phenomenon wipes out an entire universe, that's definitely an AP feat, even if the mechanism is “conceptual/abstract.” Hax isn't a label that cancels out the scope of an attack, it just describes its nature.

Except that the author confirms that reality will also collapse, so the erasure of the concept of reality ≠ planetary ap, even though I know it's just an analogy.

 

[Arkansalter2]

That doesn't prevent it from also being a Destructive Capacity.

So you just proved it's Environmental Destruction.
Congratulations.

If a single phenomenon wipes out an entire universe, that's definitely an AP feat

Half-Truth fallacy. In this case, it's only over the course of 87 days as repeatedly said. Stop stonewalling.

 

[Ebihara]

At this point we are more arguring our standards and policies..

 

[Mythic381]

Yes, Null has “hax” aspects (unconventional, informational). That doesn't prevent it from also being a Destructive Capacity. If a single phenomenon wipes out an entire universe, that's definitely an AP feat, even if the mechanism is “conceptual/abstract.” Hax isn't a label that cancels out the scope of an attack, it just describes its nature.

Do you even know what environmental destruction is? It having a destructive capacity does not debunk it being environmental destruction, also genuinely if it's an AP feat who actually scales to it? It's not like it's implied characters scale to the absolute solver physically.

Tier: 5-B physically, 4-B, up to 3-A with the Absolute Solver

So no, not proof it's AP.

If a single phenomenon wipes out an entire universe, that's definitely an AP feat,

So can environmental destruction.

Except that the author confirms that reality will also collapse, so the erasure of the concept of reality ≠ planetary ap, even though I know it's just an analogy.

Confirms the destruction of reality OVERTIME. Genuinely stop stonewalling.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yes, Null has “hax” aspects (unconventional, informational). That doesn't prevent it from also being a Destructive Capacity. If a single phenomenon wipes out an entire universe, that's definitely an AP feat, even if the mechanism is “conceptual/abstract.” Hax isn't a label that cancels out the scope of an attack, it just describes its nature.

Except that the author confirms that reality will also collapse, so the erasure of the concept of reality ≠ planetary ap, even though I know it's just an analogy.

while it is true that you can have AP via hax, the issue the how the "hax" in question work, how it gonna destroy the universe as you claims, the problem is the process that lead to the result which is the universal destruction, from what i saw, it only gonna cause chain reaction that lead to Big Crunch

 

[Kirua29]

I feel like everything I've said before is being ignored. It's universe level overtime, but at once it isn't as it takes time to output the energy necessary to destroy the universe.

I said it's both... you can't cherry pick like that.

Half-Truth fallacy. In this case, it's only over the course of 87 days as repeatedly said. Stop stonewalling.

That’s not a half-truth, it’s literally the point of how AP is defined.
The duration doesn’t disqualify the feat, moderators have already confirmed it doesn’t need to be instantaneous, only a single, unified phenomenon.
The Null expands continuously after activation without interruption or multiple strikes, so it still qualifies as a single AP event on a universal scale. The “87 days” detail only describes the rate of expansion, not the nature of the attack itself.

 

[Mythic381]

I said it's both... you can't cherry pick like that.

Both what? The Big Crunch is universe level overtime, that doesn't mean it just outputs a full universe-energy level at once.

The duration doesn’t disqualify the feat, moderators have already confirmed it doesn’t need to be instantaneous, only a single, unified phenomenon.

Yes, because it's accepted as environmental destruction and not as an AP feat, because if it was indeed AP then neither Cyn nor Uzi would be able to output that full energy immediately in a fight, taking 87 days to output a universe-level attack is NOT going to help in a fight like this.

 

[Kirua29]

while it is true that you can have AP via hax, the issue the how the "hax" in question work, how it gonna destroy the universe as you claims, the problem is the process that lead to the result which is the universal destruction, from what i saw, it only gonna cause chain reaction that lead to Big Crunch

That’s actually a fair point, and I get what you mean.
The Null doesn’t just trigger a chain reaction that ends in collapse, it’s the active phenomenon that causes the collapse itself. The Absolute Solver is explicitly described as the exponential end of the universe; it continuously expands and erases reality, consuming space-time directly.
So while the result looks like a Big Crunch, the cause is still the Null’s direct reality erasure, not a passive cosmological event.

And that's easy to prove, because what is the solver's goal? Assimilation, so it wants to become one with the universe. So if it simply destroys the universe by creating a natural phenomenon, it won't assimilate it.

 

[Arkansalter2]

The “87 days” detail only describes the rate of expansion, not the nature of the attack itself.

So question. Is it already universe level to begin with at the start of the expansion or no?

The Null expands continuously after activation without interruption or multiple strikes, so it still qualifies as a single AP event on a universal scale.

... Over the course of 87 days. Again, Half-Truth.

Now I'd understand if it just expanded like instantly but 87 days is far too long for it to be considered usable AP, let alone usable in versus matches.

 

[Kirua29]

Both what? The Big Crunch is universe level overtime, that doesn't mean it just outputs a full universe-energy level at once.

I said that because I was talking about DC and AP, and he only remembered DC and used that to say that I was contradicting myself, except that null, as I have been repeating from the beginning, is a DC, AP, HAX.

Yes, because it's accepted as environmental destruction and not as an AP feat, because if it was indeed AP then neither Cyn nor Uzi would be able to output that full energy immediately in a fight, taking 87 days to output a universe-level attack is NOT going to help in a fight like this.

An AP does not require immediate action.

 

[Mythic381]

I said that because I was talking about DC and AP, and he only remembered DC and used that to say that I was contradicting myself, except that null, as I have been repeating from the beginning, is a DC, AP, HAX.

Literally no one is shown to physically scale to NULLs physically, not even Cyn's NULL that destroyed earth was accept as an AP feat, and there's no implication any of them scale to it physically anyways.

An AP does not require immediate action.

It requires the energy you're outputting at once, no one is going to wait 87 days for your attack unless they're Goku, and even he ain't that patient.

 

[Ebihara]

Again at this point Kirua you are basically just arguring agasint the sites standards and policies.

 

[Kirua29]

Let me remind everyone of the definitions of AP, DC, and ED:


AP = The amount of energy a character or power can release in a single action.


DC = Measures what the attack actually destroys, the visible result, not just the energy released.


ED = Refers to a phenomenon or character’s ability to destroy an environment without it being a direct or offensive attack. It’s when the destruction of a space, world, or universe occurs as a natural or passive effect.


The Null is not a natural phenomenon. It’s a deliberate attack created by the Absolute Solver,
with the explicit goal of assimilating the entire universe once its expansion is complete.


It’s intentional.
It’s directed.
And its final result is the universal-scale destruction and assimilation of reality.


Therefore, it cannot be considered Environmental Destruction, because the purpose is destructive, and the effect comes from a conscious, targeted power.

The Null perfectly fits this definition:

• It’s a single, self-propagating phenomenon,
• That targets reality itself,
• And whose final goal is the complete destruction of the universe.

Even if it takes 87 days, it’s not a chain of separate attacks
it’s one continuous action that only ends once the universe is fully consumed.

 

[Kirua29]

I think we misunderstood each other Cyn isn't going to stand idle for 87 days charging an attack; it's the null that takes 87 days to spread through the universe. The action starts immediately but takes 87 days to complete. That's why I say it's an AP. If the null were an ED, the solver's objective would not make sense, because it wants to assimilate the universe, except that if it creates an ED, it will not be an assimilation

 

[Kirua29]

Again at this point Kirua you are basically just arguring agasint the sites standards and policies.

Sorry, but where on VSBW does it say the opposite of what I'm saying? It's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one.

 

[OrangeFR]

I think we misunderstood each other Cyn isn't going to stand idle for 87 days charging an attack; it's the null that takes 87 days to spread through the universe. The action starts immediately but takes 87 days to complete. That's why I say it's an AP.

Cyn not standing idle charging an attack is exactly what makes it ED. As you put it ED “Refers to a phenomenon or character’s ability to destroy an environment without it being a direct or offensive attack. It’s when the destruction of a space, world, or universe occurs as a natural or passive effect”. It is not a direct attack, therefore it is ED.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Even if it takes 87 days, it’s not a chain of separate attacks
it’s one continuous action that only ends once the universe is fully consumed.

So what you're basically saying is that it's only 3-A after 87 days?
Congratulations!
You just made the following:

Up to 3-A Overtime via Environmental Destruction.

You, again, made it verbose like it's gonna change anything.

Environmental Destruction, because the purpose is destructive

Heavily contradicting yourself here.

If it takes that long to even perform a feat like that, at that point, its just considered environmental destruction.

Take Thanos for example. He's 3-A period because of the fact that the power stone is stated to destroy the universe and probably within a much shorter time than the Absolute solver.
Same with his other 3-A. The snap. It erased half the life in the universe.
See the similarities of those? Those happen within a very quick amount of time and as such, could be used.

Absolute solver? No. It can be up to 3-A overtime however Absolute Solver's 3-A would just be environmental destruction due to the amount of time it takes.

Again, I'd understand if it took like 2 seconds, sure have that 3-A usable ap.
But if said 3-A takes 87 days to even fully complete, what's the point of it even being usable as usable AP in versus matches? It would just be environmental destruction at that point.
Goku can casually do 2-C punches. Low amount of time. It's a punch.
Sonic casually fights High 3-A beings who can reshape digital dimensions or some shit at will. Again, usable and in a low amount of time.
Solver? Give it 87 days and it'll consume the universe.

Environmental destruction and that's that.

 

[Kirua29]

Cyn not standing idle charging an attack is exactly what makes it ED. As you put it ED “Refers to a phenomenon or character’s ability to destroy an environment without it being a direct or offensive attack. It’s when the destruction of a space, world, or universe occurs as a natural or passive effect”. It is not a direct attack, therefore it is ED.

If the null were an ED, the solver's objective would not make sense, because it wants to assimilate the universe, except that if it creates an ED, it will not be an assimilation, ED is the creation of a natural phenomenon, you're not going to make me believe that the assimilation of reality is an ED???

 

[Kirua29]

So what you're basically saying is that it's only 3-A after 87 days?
Congratulations!
You just made the following:

Up to 3-A Overtime via Environmental Destruction.

You, again, made it verbose like it's gonna change anything.

Heavily contradicting yourself here.

If it takes that long to even perform a feat like that, at that point, its just considered environmental destruction.

Take Thanos for example. He's 3-A period because of the fact that the power stone is stated to destroy the universe and probably within a much shorter time than the Absolute solver.
Same with his other 3-A. The snap. It erased half the life in the universe.
See the similarities of those? Those happen within a very quick amount of time and as such, could be used.

Absolute solver? No. It can be up to 3-A overtime however Absolute Solver's 3-A would just be environmental destruction due to the amount of time it takes.

Again, I'd understand if it took like 2 seconds, sure have that 3-A usable ap.
But if said 3-A takes 87 days to even fully complete, what's the point of it even being usable as usable AP in versus matches? It would just be environmental destruction at that point.
Goku can casually do 2-C punches. Low amount of time. It's a punch.
Sonic casually fights High 3-A beings who can reshape digital dimensions or some shit at will. Again, usable and in a low amount of time.
Solver? Give it 87 days and it'll consume the universe.

Environmental destruction and that's that.

If the null were an ED, the solver's objective would not make sense, because it wants to assimilate the universe, except that if it creates an ED, it will not be an assimilation, ED is the creation of a natural phenomenon, you're not going to make me believe that the assimilation of reality is an ED???

 

[OrangeFR]

If the null were an ED, the solver's objective would not make sense, because it wants to assimilate the universe, except that if it creates an ED, it will not be an assimilation, ED is the creation of a natural phenomenon, you're not going to make me believe that the assimilation of reality is an ED???

Notice how it says “natural or passive effect”? That “or” does a lot of heavy lifting here, as it implies that ED is not solely comprised of natural phenomenon.

 

[Kirua29]

Notice how it says “natural or passive effect”? That “or” does a lot of heavy lifting here, as it implies that ED is not solely comprised of natural phenomenon.

Sure?

Sorry, I didn’t understand the concept of ED. The way it was explained and based on what you were saying, I really got the impression that it referred to natural events caused by a character.

 

[OrangeFR]

Sure?

Sorry, I didn’t understand the concept of ED. The way it was explained and based on what you were saying, I really got the impression that it referred to natural events caused by a character.

Yeah, it is kinda unclear

 

[Kirua29]

Yeah, it is kinda unclear

Wait, wait, it says "passive." Do we agree that means without direct offensive intent? So it doesn't include active, directed, or deliberately destructive phenomena.
That's the boundary between ED and DC/AP. Right?