My Hero Academia General Discussion Thread #18

[Ped2018]

So again, considering this entire argument that took place, why not make a CRT bc this changed nothing and just waste time? And yeah, you were insulting.

Ayo, the guy apologized, no need to continue arguing about this.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Now for the most important discussion, removing the speed of the high tiers.

 

[SuperStar]

Wait what

 

[Sparkive]

This could be the case but unlikely, if it was absorbing the physical brunt of his own force then his own attacks wouldn’t have any effect as that exerted force is being absorbed.

Well... I was referring to resisting the recoil of his own blows (being the impact he would receive on his body), which shouldn't affect in any way the force with which he attacks... but hey, it's probably me not knowing anything about physics and/or not fully understanding the quirk (and to some extent it can be considered headcanon)

But he says his strength is like that of a Nomu. Mentioning the level of strength he has. Endeavor directly states that he’s as strong as All Might

I do not mean that there are no mentions, I mean that interpreting a level of power with those specific pages was questionable (referring to the 2nd to the 4th)

 

[TheRustyOne]

Wait what

No this is the perfect time to downgrade the lower characters to Subsonic and Subsonic+, with higher tiers being Supersonic and Supersonic+.

And watch when people still say those ratings are wank.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Well... I was referring to resisting the recoil of his own blows (being the impact he would receive on his body), which shouldn't affect in any way the force with which he attacks... but hey, it's probably me not knowing anything about physics and/or not fully understanding the quirk (and to some extent it can be considered headcanon)

I just find it weird how’d he’d absorb the recoil without absorbing the full brunt.
all the recoil is the energy he’s attack with falling back on him and to absorb that he’d have to absorb the energy he’s punching with as it’s the same thing.

 

[ZKillerz]

I think we understand the "chain".
We're more so squabbling over how accurate we think it would be in verse and contextualized.

For example with the scenario of Mirko replacing All Might against AFO in Kamino.
People here think she would rip through both All Might and AFO.
While I think she would get dealt with just as quickly as Mount Lady, Jeanist, Gang Orca, etc.
And at best, function as a temporary distraction like Endeavor and Edgeshot did before they also got blown away by AFO.
While All Might was the only real threat against him.

While the implication of Mirko and Endeavor damaging HEN's makes sense in a "power scaling" way.
I don't think it makes sense for them to be "All Might level" in the story.
Technically, this has been demonstrated with Endeavor talking about the gap between them and how he and the other heroes fared against AFO compared to All Might at Kamino.

Maybe that clarifies my position or view a bit more.
That said, It wasn't my intention to create several pages worth of arguments when I understand the idea, and I apologize for this mess if people read through it.

This is all valid, but at the same time you could argue that narratively the story requires the top heroes to be on that lvl for the endgame to not get one-shot

I don't think Miruko is stronger than all might, but I dont think she's fodder to him either.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I think she kicks his head off

 

[Bruh]

I think she kicks his head off

Based and rabbitpilled

 

[Bruh]

No this is the perfect time to downgrade the lower characters to Subsonic and Subsonic+, with higher tiers being Supersonic and Supersonic+.

And watch when people still say those ratings are wank.

"SUPERSONIC+ ?!! Unbelievable, that kind of horrid wanking is this? And this is why people outside this website doesn't take it seriously! Immobile is the highest MHA will ever go, don't try to inflate results and skewed author's intention with your headcanon"

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I also think it’s important to note that Mirko was confident she would beat Hood even after seeing him beat the shit out of Endeavor

I know we don’t do confidence scaling so much anymore but it further supports the notion of Mirko being > Weakened AM

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Mirko just kicks his head off.

 

[ZKillerz]

I also think it’s important to note that Mirko was confident she would beat Hood

Where can I find this statement?

 

[Bruh]

Wonder how much clothing it would take for AFO to not work on you?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Wonder how much clothing it would take for AFO to not work on you?

He’d just dig his veiny fingers through all of the fibers. He won’t stop until he grips you.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

He’d just dig his veiny fingers through all of the fibers. He won’t stop until he grips you.

He's not getting through the North Face coat.

 

[Bruh]

He’d just dig his veiny fingers through all of the fibers. He won’t stop until he grips you.

He aint gettin through this drip

 

[Bruh]

Speaking of fiber, i was really hoping Best Jeanist quirk would evolve and be able to control muscle fiber but sigh, somewhat relevant side character is all he and many MHA character will ever be

 

[Metalballrun]

We're more so squabbling over how accurate we think it would be in verse and contextualized.

Nah, the debate started over technical disagreements on canonical events. At least that's on my end.
The "Who Would Win" debate is related but is practically off topic.

People here think she would rip through both All Might and AFO.

If she lands a hit on them, she could. Evidently from the feats for all characters involved.

While I think she would get dealt with just as quickly as Mount Lady, Jeanist, Gang Orca, etc.
And at best, function as a temporary distraction like Endeavor and Edgeshot did before they also got blown away by AFO.
While All Might was the only real threat against him.

• She's too strong overall to suffer the same fate as Mt. Lady and the others did.
• The technical reason for her being a distraction is due to being a CQC fighter fighting against an airborne, ranged fighter. Not because she can't harm AFO. The same could be argued for Endeavor at that time.
• The narrative reason for Endeavor's and Edgeshot's performance during Kamino was because it wasn't their stage to fight. It was AM's and AFO's.
  • AFO blasting them away is logical. But it should be noted that neither Enji nor Edgeshot were injured by the attack.
  • Point is, in any other situation they would've contributed more and performed better.
  • The final fights in Two Heroes and Heroes: Rising happened for similar reasons but inverted effects. This can be an entirely different conversation so I won't expound on it unless I'm asked.

While the implication of Mirko and Endeavor damaging HEN's makes sense in a "power scaling" way.
I don't think it makes sense for them to be "All Might level" in the story.
Technically, this has been demonstrated with Endeavor talking about the gap between them and how he and the other heroes fared against AFO compared to All Might at Kamino.

See, I still think y'all still don't buy the "power scaling" that the manga itself created.
This is also just semantics. These characters don't fit the "All Might level" in your definition.
There's actually nothing wrong with that if the topic was actually about that, i.e. All Might's general capabilities in comparison to others. But the topic was about powerscaling.

If we're going to talk about Endeavor's visual gap and heroes fighting All For One as evidences, then we should also talk about:

• Endeavor being confident that Shoto can reach or surpass All Might, purely from getting rid of his overheating weakness.
• Endeavor being confident that Toya can reach or surpass All Might, purely from having higher firepower than Endeavor.
• The heroes' performance against 75% Shigaraki, who is on Weakened All Might's level and is stronger than Weakened All For One.
• Any of the notable High End fights.

---

I'm actually convinced that some people here are confused that "scaling" means Character A beats Character B, when we're really talking about Character A can punch as hard as, or can hurt, Character B.

This is basically what the confusion is all about. But add All Might level being mistaken as Character equal to All Might in all departments when it just means that Characters with combat ability around the same range as All Might.

 

[Metalballrun]

No this is the perfect time to downgrade the lower characters to Subsonic and Subsonic+, with higher tiers being Supersonic and Supersonic+.

And watch when people still say those ratings are wank.

Before all the High End fiasco, I actually wanted to talk about Nagant's bullets and how Shiggy was getting hit by it from 200km away when he was supposed to scale far above it. Was he that physicaly debilitated to the point that he couldn't react to it?

 

[Bruh]

Before all the High End fiasco, I actually wanted to talk about Nagant's bullets and how Shiggy was getting hit by it from 200km away when he was supposed to scale far above it. Was he that physicaly debilitated to the point that he couldn't react to it?

I also think he was caught off guard and wasn't even looking in the bullet general direction and even after he knew he was being shot at, he didn't even try to dodge it, just trying to decay the ground but i'm not really the guy to discuss this so i'll leave Rusty to it

 

[Metalballrun]

Like no matter if we scale Shiggy to be as fast or faster than the bullets, he'd be seeing it literally hundreds of kilometers away.

Assuming Nagant really was still in Tokyo at that time and she didn't somehow travel at Transonic speeds to get to Hanamatsu in time.

 

[Bruh]

Considering the state of her body, the state of the whole country and the lack of resources the heroes are dealing with and especially how impressive TRANSONIC travel speed is, i don't think she would be able to travel 1 let alone hundreds of km in such a short timeframe

 

[Metalballrun]

They could've had her ride a jet or something lol
It's not like as if considering the transonic rating wouldn't have already obliterated the perceived timeframes of the fights anyways.
Since based on that speed, Dabi was burning himself with Phosphor for 10 minutes. He's been chasing Endeavor for like, 8 minutes probably.
As Iida going Transonic means it would take around 12 minutes for him and Shoto to reach Gunga Mountain.

 

[Onelixy]

If she lands a hit on them, she could. Evidently from the feats for all characters involved.

Only for a debate - powerscaling aspect. As demonstrated storywise, All For One oneshotted Jeanist, Mount Lady, Gang Orca and others in under a second, while Endeavor and Edgeshot were temporary distractions until they also were blown away by AFO, and didn't participate further in the battle. All Might at his weakest before retiring was still the only relevant player in the battle between the two. That part isn't really debatable when re-reading the battle at Kamino, and Endeavor talking about the gap between himself and All Might.

Now, as I stated I think we all get the power scaling chain and (very important!!!) implications of damaging the HEN's or near HEN's, but it makes little sense storywise, which to me is far more important and interesting. Guess we can agree to disagree about that aspect.

 

[Metalballrun]

As demonstrated storywise, All For One oneshotted Jeanist, Mount Lady, Gang Orca and others in under a second

Again, none of these characters have the same physical capabilities as Mirko. This isn't an evidence.

while Endeavor and Edgeshot were temporary distractions until they also were blown away by AFO

I'm pretty sure I wrote an entire section of a comment explaining the circumstances of this.
Not to mention that even Hawks and Endeavor were the main force in fighting All For One in the final arc, meaning whatever implication you have that the story is treating these characters as incapable of stepping into that stage level is contradicted by the story.
Which I'm pretty sure is the entire point this argument is trying to get across.

Everything else in this comment is just repeating the same points I already addressed and elaborated on in my comments.

but it makes little sense storywise

If the story doesn't make sense to you then that's fine but that's still the story and it won't change.

 

[Onelixy]

I'm pretty sure I wrote an entire section of a comment explaining the circumstances of this.
Not to mention that even Hawks and Endeavor were the main force in fighting All For One in the final arc, meaning whatever implication you have that the story is treating these characters as incapable of stepping into that stage level is contradicted by the story.

Are we arguing AFO at Kamino is the same AFO Endeavor defeated? I thought there was a common agreement that AFO was at his weakest and most damaged we've seen him pre-rewind.
Moreover, if you were right about this, the other pros should've been of more help during Kamino, and Endeavor shouldn't be having struggles regarding the gap between him and All Might on several occacions. But that's what the story is trying to convey.

If the story doesn't make sense to you then that's fine but that's still the story and it won't change.

No, the story makes perfect sense to me!
I just think your intepretation of the story doesn't.
Power scaling from a debate point of view, sure. But not actually in the story.

 

[Metalballrun]

Are we arguing AFO at Kamino is the same AFO Endeavor defeated? I thought there was a common agreement that AFO was at his weakest and most damaged we've seen him pre-rewind.

That's just an assumption. Even if it's true, he doesn't seem to have significantly weakened, he was even using more Quirks than during the All Might fight.

Moreover, if you were right about this, the other pros should've been of more help during Kamino, and Endeavor shouldn't be having struggles regarding the gap between him and All Might on several occacions. But that's what the story is trying to convey.

I've already addressed this in my previous comment again and again.
These aren't counterarguments.
I'm not even sure what is the main argument these things are trying to get across at this point.

No, the story makes perfect sense to me!
I just think your intepretation of the story doesn't.
Power scaling from a debate point of view, sure. But not actually in the story.

No.
You're just trying to separate the powerscaling in the story from the perceived "powerscaling from a debate point of view" when they're both the same thing.
It's futile.

 

[Metalballrun]

It's not like I don't understand this perspective. I, too, was arguing that the USJ Nomu was a special Nomu outside the powerscaling framework where the High Ends, Upper Tiers, and so on is applied.

But that was 2 years ago. The insurmountable evidence in the story cannot be denied.

There is this fixation towards the events of Kamino Ward and "what the story is trying to convey" that y'all are effectively ignoring that the story is conveying things all the time. Does Doctor Garaki's statements and every other fight in the series not convey the story?

 

[Metalballrun]

Pretty much every argument against the High End scaling has been debunked at this point.

The only counterargument is that "it doesn't make sense to what the story is trying to convey", which is canonically unsubstantiated, and is practically an argument from incredulity.

 

[Onelixy]

That's just an assumption. Even if it's true, he doesn't seem to have significantly weakened, he was even using more Quirks than during the All Might fight.

Yet Horikoshi had him deal with all the other heroes present with zero issues at Kamino, aside from All Might.

I've already addressed this in my previous comment again and again.
These aren't counterarguments.
I'm not even sure what is the main argument these things are trying to get across at this point.

You're just trying to separate the powerscaling in the story from the perceived "powerscaling from a debate point of view" when they're both the same thing.
It's futile.

My point and what I care about is the characters Horikoshi has in mind while writing, drawing and providing story elements, not us analysing them to scale their power for debates and whatnot.

The argument was that if Mirko were to show up as one of the other participants of the Hideout Raid Team, she wouldn't make any real difference, and especially not be capable of oneshotting All Might and AFO. None other than All Might in that team was capable of withstanding AFO and being a real threat to him. They and their battle were depicted as on a different level than anyone else there.

Does Doctor Garaki's statements and every other fight in the series not convey the story?

Like him saying Shigaraki is the perfect Nomu, yet not quite on par with All Might? The same Garaki that made the USJ? Or Star & Stripe overpowering and winning a physical encounter with Shigaraki, yet explcitly stating she's inferior to All Might? And Mirko dealing zero damage to Shigaraki with her attacks alone?

Pretty much every argument against the High End scaling has been debunked at this point.

Again, I'm fine with the HEN's scaling from a debate point of view. I've already stated I understand it from that perpsective. The initial issue there was that I thought we were talking about the USJ's durability vs All Might compared to the HEN's durability against Mirko. Honest mistake.

 

[ZKillerz]

Anyways, I really just wanna move on and discuss stuff like Nagant's Sub Relativistic feat. I've been showboating this feat but it has a number of circumstantial issues.

Which Sub-relativistic feat?

 

[ZKillerz]

After the latest chapter how does Todoroki and lida still scale to High Hypersonic?

 

[Bruh]

After the latest chapter how does Todoroki and lida still scale to High Hypersonic?

It's a movement speed feat that no relevant character scale to in a combat setting stated by a background fodder, as much as we joke around this affect nothing. Unless Hori pulled a Gege and have speed value stated in a fight, this changes nothing

 

[Metalballrun]

Yet Horikoshi had him deal with all the other heroes present with zero issues at Kamino, aside from All Might.

Yet Hawks and Endeavor were portrayed by both themselves and the story to be the main force against All For One.
We're just going to repeat the same conversation over and over again.

My point and what I care about is the characters Horikoshi has in mind while writing, drawing and providing story elements, not us analysing them to scale their power for debates and whatnot.

So why are you doing the complete opposite?
Ignoring how incredibly pretentious and sanctimonious this comment sounds, you've been ignoring and dismissing evidences in the manga written and drawn by Horikoshi.
That's among the greatest disrespect you can give to an artist especially when you pretend to care about what their art.

The argument was that if Mirko were to show up as one of the other participants of the Hideout Raid Team, she wouldn't make any real difference, and especially not be capable of oneshotting All Might and AFO.

Sorry, but that is explicitly contradicted by the story of MHA. You have zero evidences for this claim besides headcanon.

I've done a better analysis of this situation than you because I truly respect Horikoshi's work. I don't like being disingenuous and reductive.

None other than All Might in that team was capable of withstanding AFO and being a real threat to him.

Which team?
We've seen All For One threatened by multiple heroes other than All Might over the course of the series.
We've had Endeavor reminding All For One of his memories of All Might defeating him for the first time.
But I guess your respect for Horikoshi is not sufficient enough to consider that among all the other things I've mentioned about the series.

Like him saying Shigaraki is the perfect Nomu, yet not quite on par with All Might? The same Garaki that made the USJ? Or Star & Stripe overpowering and winning a physical encounter with Shigaraki, yet explcitly stating she's inferior to All Might? And Mirko dealing zero damage to Shigaraki with her attacks alone?

See, one of your issues is that you're incapable of separating Incomplete Shigaraki from Current Shigaraki.
You're not paying attention to the story.
Reflect with that by learning to separate the two instead of intentionally conflating them to form this misleading argument.

Again, I'm fine with the HEN's scaling from a debate point of view.

You're still pretending that the High End scaling only works from a "debate point of view." How funny is that?

People who separate the story from debating are complete imbeciles unfit to be in any platform that requires critical thinking. This is how wanking happens in the first place.

 

[Metalballrun]

Which Sub-relativistic feat?

Nagant sniping Shigaraki.

After the latest chapter how does Todoroki and lida still scale to High Hypersonic?

Because as of right now, that statement is looking to be an outlier.
Kinda like Garou's subsonic movement speed being too fast for OPM top tiers.

Even if final arc events do lead to speed downgrades, it won't happen until the war arc ends.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Before all the High End fiasco, I actually wanted to talk about Nagant's bullets and how Shiggy was getting hit by it from 200km away when he was supposed to scale far above it. Was he that physicaly debilitated to the point that he couldn't react to it?

Yes we have him as slower in that moment. He was struggling just to reach down and touch the floor, since we see his body was trembling as he tried to.

He had just "inverted" his skin and was still fighting back against AFO. He couldn't move until that moment and he didn't get full control until after he was pushed off the flying fortress. While not directly stated, I believe it's safe to assume Shigaraki wasn't at full power in that moment with Nagant.

 

[Bruh]

Yes we have him as slower in that moment. He was struggling just to reach down and touch the floor, since we see his body was trembling as he tried to.

He had just "inverted" his skin and was still fighting back against AFO. He couldn't move until that moment and he didn't get full control until after he was pushed off the flying fortress. While not directly stated, I believe it's safe to assume Shigaraki wasn't at full power in that moment with Nagant.

Also the bullet was basically a sneak attack that he didn't anticipate nor saw coming,

 

[Onelixy]

See, one of your issues is that you're incapable of separating Incomplete Shigaraki from Current Shigaraki.
You're not paying attention to the story.
Reflect with that by learning to separate the two instead of intentionally conflating them to form this misleading argument.

You're still pretending that the High End scaling only works from a "debate point of view." How funny is that?

Sure, let's avoid current Shigaraki. He's not needed to paint a clear picture.

Garaki stated Shigaraki was physically inferior to All Might.
Not because he was incomplete, but that excessive remodelling would have negative results.

He was also stated to be a perfect Nomu pre S&S battle.
During the S&S battle, Star excplicitly stated she's inferior to All Might, yet beat Shigaraki in their initial physical clash.

Meanwhile Garaki made the USJ with strength on par with All Might.

So why are you doing the complete opposite?
Ignoring how incredibly pretentious and sanctimonious this comment sounds, you've been ignoring and dismissing evidences in the manga written and drawn by Horikoshi.
That's among the greatest disrespect you can give to an artist especially when you pretend to care about what their art.

I'm talking about a plethora of statements and how action sequences were depicted. If I had one single statement, as you do, I'd have less of a leg to stand on.

 

[Metalballrun]

It's a sneak attack from 200 kilometers away.

Even 45% Deku would see it from a mile away even if it wasn't meant for him. When he was reacting to it from 3km away.

Nagant's bullets are also large enough for them to see, and with their enhanced senses they should have detected it.