My Hero Academia General Discussion Thread #18

[TheRustyOne]

As we saw during AFO's fight against Endeavor, when Quirk vestiges rebel the main body starts slows down.

Shigaraki pushing back against AFO's control is likely slowing him down just like it did when AFO's Quirks were rebelling against him.

If not more so due to Shigaraki not being a vestige and the weird inside out skin thing he did.

The sneak attack angel can only work for the first bullets, but falls apart with the last one since he's obviously aware of her at that point.

If he could move normally at that point he would easily be able to dodge it. But he can't dodge the bullet and can't stop Izuku from pushing him out of the arena.

I fully admit his speed was never directly stated to be slower, so there is a possibility I'm wrong. But I feel like it makes sense and fits with what we're shown.

 

[Metalballrun]

Garaki stated Shigaraki was physically inferior to All Might.
Not because he was incomplete, but that excessive remodelling would have negative results.

To clarify, nobody actually said Shigaraki was inferior to All Might because he was incomplete.
They just call Shigaraki that because he was Incomplete at that time. Alternatively, he can be referred toas 75% Shigaraki or simply Jaku/PLF War/Raid Shigaraki, or whatever.

Secondly, given the context the story has presented, Garaki was likely comparing Shigaraki to Prime All Might.
Considering that Shigaraki, at that time, had numerous comparisons to be as strong as (Weakened) All Might. And how Shigaraki later mutated to become as strong as Prime All Might.
He has been compared to the USJ Nomu, the High Ends, and was even described to be above All For One.
Feat-wise, Shigaraki has taken enough 100% attacks from Deku as well.
So before anything else, it's obvious that the story and Horikoshi intended him to be that way. Unless Horikoshi has dementia.

This is the same case with Star and Stripe and other characters.

I'm talking about a plethora of statements and how action sequences were depicted. If I had one single statement, as you do, I'd have less of a leg to stand on.

But you weren't. It's the opposite.
You've pretty much only held on to the Kamino Raid fight while everything else has been addressed and debunked. Even the Kamino fight was given an in-depth analysis, but the multitudes of situations and evidences from the manga I've provided was mostly met with "But in Kamino..."

Like even if we take author intent into consideration, Horikoshi went out of his way to describe Hood's attack as something worse than Kamino Ward. Though that's basically a footnote buried under mountains of evidences presented throughout the thread.

 

[Metalballrun]

I fully admit his speed was never directly stated to be slower, so there is a possibility I'm wrong. But I feel like it makes sense and fits with what we're shown.

I feel like the only proper justification for it is that Shigaraki must've been nearly immobilized.
I'm not totally against what you said though, I just want to clarify all aspects of the feat to make sure there's no holes in it.

 

[Bruh]

But I feel like it makes sense and fits with what we're shown.

Imo(however that worth), it's not an unfair assumption to make considering he was drawn to be shaking and more feeble than usual

 

[ZKillerz]

What factors goes into being ranked higher on the hero leaderboard?

 

[ZKillerz]

gnoring how incredibly pretentious and sanctimonious this comment sounds

This language is too sophisticated for me

 

[Emerald]

What factors goes into being ranked higher on the hero leaderboard?

Popularity and how active they are iirc

 

[ZKillerz]

Popularity and how active they are iirc

I was under the impression it was based off combat

 

[Bruh]

What factors goes into being ranked higher on the hero leaderboard?

Definitely not just power or else Mirko would be Top 1 and Wash would be in the infinite

 

[Onelixy]

To clarify, nobody actually said Shigaraki was inferior to All Might because he was incomplete.

Sure? Point being, Garaki said Shigaraki didn't have physical strength on par with All Might, incomplete or not.

Secondly, given the context the story has presented, Garaki was likely comparing Shigaraki to Prime All Might.

At the time it's explicitly tied together with Endeavor witnessing Shigaraki's strength, stating it's both "it's just like" and "as powerful and sturdy as" All Might, and Garaki corrects him, stating it's not the case.

He has been compared to the USJ Nomu

Whom Garaki stated (told Shigaraki) had strength on par with All Might.

Feat-wise, Shigaraki has taken enough 100% attacks from Deku as well.

We've already addressed that Garaki stated Shigaraki was physically inferior to All Might. By the logic you've applied to the USJ and HEN's in regard to Mirko, All Might is stronger than Shigaraki, and should be capable of enduring what he himself can output.

So before anything else, it's obvious that the story and Horikoshi intended him to be that way. Unless Horikoshi has dementia.

Well, no. It's obvious that Horikoshi wrote Shigaraki, the perfected Nomu, Garaki's masterpiece, as physically inferior to All Might, which in context was in response to Endeavor and the heroes reaction, which wouldn't have been of his prime.

After Shigaraki's mutation, he claims to be on par with prime All Might, which may be the case.

This is the same case with Star and Stripe and other characters.

What evidence do you have of this? Do you think Star's (and her crews) only reference point of All Might was his prime?

But you weren't. It's the opposite.
You've pretty much only held on to the Kamino Raid fight while everything else has been addressed and debunked. Even the Kamino fight was given an in-depth analysis, but the multitudes of situations and evidences from the manga I've provided was mostly met with "But in Kamino..."

Anyone reading this can see a plehtora of different arguments working together, how the actions and feats play out in Kamino is only one of them. Garaki's statement is another, Endeavor, the databook, etc. While you're relying on Mirko (and Endeavor) damaging HEN's.

Like even if we take author intent into consideration, Horikoshi went out of his way to describe Hood's attack as something worse than Kamino Ward. Though that's basically a footnote buried under mountains of evidences presented throughout the thread.

"If we don't evacuate the whole city It's gonna make Kamino look like nothing"
You clearly misunderstood the intent there as well then. As Endeavor had seemingly lost and the symbol of peace isn't there to stop it. It's the whole point of that battle, with Endeavor stepping up as the current number 1 hero. Not that their fight actually was more devastating or destructive than AM vs AFO in Kamino at the time.

And while I think databooks can be dubious for numerous reasons, it does give us a picture of what Horikoshi has in mind, where both AFO and AM is an entire tier above Mirko.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

They could've had her ride a jet or something lol
It's not like as if considering the transonic rating wouldn't have already obliterated the perceived timeframes of the fights anyways.
Since based on that speed, Dabi was burning himself with Phosphor for 10 minutes. He's been chasing Endeavor for like, 8 minutes probably.
As Iida going Transonic means it would take around 12 minutes for him and Shoto to reach Gunga Mountain.

In my original calc I angsized her distance from the UA construct (obviously the construct was much farther away, but it appeared to be a bright light in the panel) and I managed to get over 3 kilometers

Even if we assume she got closer to Shiggy it would still be in the high end MHS range, maybe MHS+.

But I think we’ll still stay w the assumption that she was the full 209300 meters away since there’s nothing that proves otherwise

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Because as of right now, that statement is looking to be an outlier.
Kinda like Garou's subsonic movement speed being too fast for OPM top tiers.

I remember when the OPM thread were losing their shit cause of the subsonic calc

What a time to be alive

 

[Metalballrun]

At the time it's explicitly tied together with Endeavor witnessing Shigaraki's strength, stating it's both "it's just like" and "as powerful and sturdy as" All Might, and Garaki corrects him, stating it's not the case.

Garaki and Endeavor's juxtaposition further highlights Hori's intended comparison.
Garaki compares Shigaraki to Prime All Might is made obvious by circumstantial evidence written by Hori.
It can be observed with Shigaraki's power progression from Weakened All Might level (PLF Raid arc) to Prime All Might level (War arc).
As noted by Kingofwolves, Aizawa compares Shigaraki to both the USJ Nomu and the High Ends, both shown in the same scan, both referencing how they injured Aizawa.

Whom Garaki stated (told Shigaraki) had strength on par with All Might.

The USJ Nomu whom was stated by Garaki to be of inferior tier to High Ends.
The USJ Nomu whom was compared by Aizawa to High Ends and Shigaraki.

We've already addressed that Garaki stated Shigaraki was physically inferior to All Might. By the logic you've applied to the USJ and HEN's in regard to Mirko, All Might is stronger than Shigaraki, and should be capable of enduring what he himself can output.

Correct, Prime All Might is stronger than Shigaraki at that time.

Well, no. It's obvious that Horikoshi wrote Shigaraki, the perfected Nomu, Garaki's masterpiece, as physically inferior to All Might, which in context was in response to Endeavor and the heroes reaction, which wouldn't have been of his prime.

Paying attention to the details, the perfected Nomu being weaker than Weakened All Might is nonsensical with the existence of High Ends and the USJ Nomu, combined with multiple statements from those who observed and fought the USJ Nomu and All Might. Hori intends to compare Shigaraki to the USJ Nomu and High Ends, effectively comparing him to Weakened All Might, as opposed to Prime All Might.

After Shigaraki's mutation, he claims to be on par with prime All Might, which may be the case.

The AFO-dominant persona claims to be on par with Prime All Might. Even if he was showboating, AFO fought All Might at his absolute peak, making his claims to be Prime All Might level highly credible.
Characters on Weakened All Might's level were incapable of dealing serious damage to him, although were able to accumulate damage, further increasing his credibility.
Horikoshi's intent is obvious.

Anyone reading this can see a plehtora of different arguments working together, how the actions and feats play out in Kamino is only one of them. Garaki's statement is another, Endeavor, the databook, etc. While you're relying on Mirko (and Endeavor) damaging HEN's.

Now this is a blatant lie.

First and foremost, Rusty was the only one I can find who referenced the databooks, and his entire post supports my arguments with credible receipts.
As far as my comments go, excluding Mirko and Endeavor scaling to High Ends, the things I've addressed include but are not limited to:

• Hawks and Endeavor presented as a threat to All For One, with both damaging and the latter nearly killing AFO.
• All For One noted to be weaker than Shigaraki, one reason being his lack of natural physical enhancements.
• In-depth analysis on how Mirko would lose to All For One
• In-depth analysis dispelling the Shock Absorption strawman (multiple comments)
• In-depth analysis of Weakened All Might vs USJ Nomu
• In-depth analysis of Kamino Ward
• In-depth analysis of various characters in various story arcs against various opponents

There are also other comments, such as from Kingofwolves, that gave further context for our side.

Most of these arguments have either been ignored, or was met with disingenuous attempts of dismissing them for being "debate powerscaling".

It's all fine and dandy, but there's no purpose continuing a conversation with a party that's already halfway from being stonewalling.

You clearly misunderstood the intent there as well then.

What you're describing is the details of the fight.
The mention of Kamino alone was intended to portray the High End as a threat comparable to Kamino. Especially when most of the damages in Kamino happened while All Might was absent.
The lack of a Symbol is part of the situation. A scenario tends to have multiple meanings at once.

---

Seeing that not only the High End's factual scaling has been ignored, but even Shigaraki's scaling are, among other things mentioned in this comment, paints the picture that this conversation was never intended to be constructive in the first place, hence being pointless and not worth the energy.

To those who are against the High End scaling, where exactly would you place the High Ends at?

The fact that there has been no answer to this so far is funny though.

 

[Gitagon]

The fact that there has been no answer to this so far is funny though.

I already answered this many times. This gotta be the millionth time I'm talking about this.

The High-ends should be treated as individuals and scaled off their own individual feats just like every other character. And not just the High-ends but all Nomu.


Scaling them as a group ignores a lot of things while trying to force them into a box.

- That's why I gave the example of the Grey tier Nomu that could tank and redirect Endeavor's Hellflame. At the end of the day MHA is still a verse where quirks make a huge difference.

- Or Hawks needing 2 blows to cut through a white Nomus neck but still being able to cut through Hood's arm. And white Nomus don't even have Regen. Hawks feather swords literally couldn't cause much damage to a white Nomu on the first blow.

- We get to hospital High-end and another example of this appears. Mirko shaves through all the High-ends like butter. But once Ribby activated the ribcage quirk, he could not only tank Mirko's kicks but also sprouts multiple layers of bone under the skin to block Endeavor's Jet Burn directly. I mean to should be obvious that the bone/exoskeleton/ribcage quirk makes a world's difference in his defence that the other High-ends can't scale to.

- It's pretty much the same belief for Shigaraki's ride in the Star and Stripes fight. People try to scale other High-ends to it which inflates the scaling when we don't even know which quirks it had. People just assume it tanked the Tiamat in base with no defensive quirks.

 

[ZKillerz]

Why should we scale them individually when the story itself scales them collectively?

 

[Ped2018]

Holy shit, it looks like you guys didn't read any of argument that @Kingofwolves999, @TheRustyOne, and @Metalballrun posted

 

[Onelixy]

Garaki and Endeavor's juxtaposition further highlights Hori's intended comparison.
Garaki compares Shigaraki to Prime All Might is made obvious by circumstantial evidence written by Hori.
It can be observed with Shigaraki's power progression from Weakened All Might level (PLF Raid arc) to Prime All Might level (War arc)
As noted by Kingofwolves, Aizawa compares Shigaraki to both the USJ Nomu and the High Ends, both shown in the same scan, both referencing how they injured Aizawa.

During the first war, Endeavor and Garaki make references to All Might, with no mention of "prime". Where Endeavor says he rivals All Might (with an image of non-prime All Might in mind), and Garaki says it's not quite on par with him in the same panel. However, Eraser says the USJ Nomu is easily on All Might's level in strength, and Shigaraki affirms this.
Now, unless Garaki is either lying to Shigaraki or misremembering, he's affirming that the USJ is physically stronger than remodeled Shigaraki. However, physical strength is only one small part of how powerful one can be. Power is one of the 4-5 stats Horikoshi lists in his databooks.

The USJ Nomu whom was stated by Garaki to be of inferior tier to High Ends.
The USJ Nomu whom was compared by Aizawa to High Ends and Shigaraki.

Shigaraki who's stated by Garaki to be inferior to All Might, yet his perfect creation.
Shigaraki who they had to stop waking up by all means according to Mirko, and Garaki think they've already won when Shigaraki wakes up.
All Might, who is ranked above the HEN's according to Horikoshi, and so on.
It's pretty clearly set up that Shigaraki is superior to the average HEN, while physically inferior to All Might, with no mention of "prime".
This is explicitly what Horikoshi has written down in the databooks.

Correct, Prime All Might is stronger than Shigaraki at that time.

There's no mention of prime. It happens in the same panel when Endeavor says his power is just like All Might's with an image of non-prime All Might.

Paying attention to the details, the perfected Nomu being weaker than Weakened All Might is nonsensical with the existence of High Ends and the USJ Nomu, combined with multiple statements from those who observed and fought the USJ Nomu and All Might. Hori intends to compare Shigaraki to the USJ Nomu and High Ends, effectively comparing him to Weakened All Might, as opposed to Prime All Might.

Could you rephrase this? I'm not sure if I follow your argument. Are you saying that Garaki can't be talking about the same All Might he used as a reference to create the USJ? Maybe I misunderstood, but this has been addressed.

Characters on Weakened All Might's level were incapable of dealing serious damage to him, although were able to accumulate damage, further increasing his credibility.
Horikoshi's intent is obvious.

Yeah, Hori's intent is obvious since he literally gave us his idea of their power in the databook. With All Might at an S+, Hood at S, and Mirko at an A+. All of this fits into the story I'm interpreting but seems to contradict your guy's interpretation of Mirko being vastly superior.

Now this is a blatant lie.

I've been in these types of spaces for more than 10 years, and I haven't told a single lie. I've been incorrect, I've been unclear, made mistakes, but never lied. What am I lying about? If you're referring to the databook reference, I'm not saying I brought it up in the comment you responded to, I'm saying it's a source affirming my view, and contradicting your view.

First and foremost, Rusty was the only one I can find who referenced the databooks, and his entire post supports my arguments with credible receipts. As far as my comments go, excluding Mirko and Endeavor scaling to High Ends, the things I've addressed include but are not limited to:

To be crystal clear, as mentioned above, Horikoshi ranked All Might and AFO with an S+ in power, Mirko is an entire tier below them, at A+, and Hood, the HEN, was at S. Additionally, that AFO was weakened post Kamino. This seems to reinforce exactly what I'm suggesting. Horikoshi's own intent.

Most of these arguments have either been ignored, or was met with disingenuous attempts of dismissing them for being "debate powerscaling".

It's all fine and dandy, but there's no purpose continuing a conversation with a party that's already halfway from being stonewalling.

I'm just trying to have a conversation where I think I'm exposing some pretty notable flaws in the arguments built up around the scaling chain.
For example Horikoshi's intention. You literally suggested that not only was I wrong, but it was like spitting in Hori's face, because I'm not fully convinced by your scaling chain, but thankfully for me, we know for a fact that Horikoshi has All Might as more powerful than Mirko and the HEN's according to the databooks, and that AFO was weaker when facing Endeavor and Hawks.
As I mentioned earlier, if there's something you think I've avoided or been unclear about, just ask me to clarify and I'd be happy to!

What you're describing is the details of the fight.
The mention of Kamino alone was intended to portray the High End as a threat comparable to Kamino. Especially when most of the damages in Kamino happened while All Might was absent.
The lack of a Symbol is part of the situation. A scenario tends to have multiple meanings at once.

I think this is a bad interpretation. And I think most people reading it would understand the sequence as I did. Here are the panels in question.

Where Endeavor is downed with ease again, they think no one is there to stop Hood, and if they don't get every civilian away it would eventually make Kamino look like nothing. There's no implication here that Endeavor vs Hood is on the same scale as All Might vs AFO. But that the results would be far more devastating given that it seemed like no one could stop Hood.

 

[Gitagon]

Why should we scale them individually when the story itself scales them collectively?

- I already said my reasons as to why scaling any MHA character should prioritize individual feats.

- When scaling requires a lot of assumptions and literally ignoring whatever assortment of quirks each Nomu has in favor of assuming each Nomu has the exact same strength and defense, then I personally can't really take it that seriously.

- Like no one can convince me Hood who has 3 strength quirks in addition to base Nomu strength is the same level as Robot with zero strength quirks.

- And since that green-colored Grey Nomu could tank Endeavor's flames, I wouldn't be arguing that all Grey Nomu can walk through Endeavor's fire.

 

[Bruh]

Came back to this thread after a break and already want to take another one

 

[ZKillerz]

- I already said my reasons as to why scaling any MHA character should prioritize individual feats.

- When scaling requires a lot of assumptions and literally ignoring whatever assortment of quirks each Nomu has in favor of assuming each Nomu has the exact same strength and defense, then I personally can't really take it that seriously.

- Like no one can convince me Hood who has 3 strength quirks in addition to base Nomu strength is the same level as Robot with zero strength quirks.

- And since that green-colored Grey Nomu could tank Endeavor's flames, I wouldn't be arguing that all Grey Nomu can walk through Endeavor's fire.

It's not an assumption when the story tells us that the Hen's are physically stronger than the usj nomu.

I think that hood could potentially be stronger than the other Hen's because of his quirks which amp his physical strength, but base-line without taking his quirk into account he would still be stronger than the usj nomu

I really dont know about the Grey Nomu's but I will say that outliers do exist and you might just be pointing out some of them

 

[Gitagon]

I know people don't take databooks seriously here (even though both were done by Hori) but it should be noted that before the current 2nd war arc, a booklet (My Hero Academia Villain Guide) was released showing the power of the final arc villains.



And AFO with his industrial mask was still at the very peak.

I think a lot of people try to use the so-called Prime & weakened AFO and All Might arguments as wiggle room, but clearly according to Hori, this isn't so.

As recently as a year ago, AFO still has S+ stats in everything but health/stamina and only current Shigaraki had the same stats.

 

[Gitagon]

It's not an assumption when the story tells us that the Hen's are physically stronger than the usj nomu.

I think that hood could potentially be stronger than the other Hen's because of his quirks which amp his physical strength, but base-line without taking his quirk into account he would still be stronger than the usj nomu

I really dont know about the Grey Nomu's but I will say that outliers do exist and you might just be pointing out some of them

There was no outlier with the Grey Nomu. It literally had the Absorption and Release quirk. And all I'm saying is that quirks make a difference. And this should be acknowledged.

 

[Bruh]

Did the Grey Nomu even took an attack that has AP behind it like Jet Burn/Vanishing Fist or did it just withstood a generic flame blast. Cuz if it's the latter then I'm pretty sure that's just a fire resist feat not Dura, since wasn't that's the reason why Shoto's ice and fire have no AP values to scale off of before he learn Flashfire Fist, since they were just temperature feat or else we would still have Low 7-B BOS Shoto

 

[ZKillerz]

what he said

 

[Therefir]

There's no mention of prime. It happens in the same panel when Endeavor says his power is just like All Might's.

I don't think this means anything, Current Shigaraki who we know is Prime AM level doesn't always mention the "prime" when comparing himself to AM.

- I already said my reasons as to why scaling any MHA character should prioritize individual feats.

We have random Near High-Ends, not even proper High-End being compared to Hood himself and taking attacks alongside Shigaraki.

I think we have more than enough proof to confidently say that all the High-Ends' base stats are comparable, and that they are on USJ Nomu's level.

 

[Onelixy]

I don't think this means anything, Current Shigaraki who we know is Prime AM level doesn't always mention the "prime" when comparing himself to AM.

He has mentioned it on two different occasions in his "current" state.
While Endeavor and Garaki talking about him pre-mutation did not refer to prime All Might. Garaki made the USJ Nomu match All Might's strength, Endeavor had an image of non-prime AM in his head, and Eraser had a flashback of the USJ as well, all in the same sequence, meaning they're not talking about prime All Might.

As the Databooks currently stand, Horikoshi is saying All Might and AFO are above any and every Nomu, and are notably above Mirko.
While the AFO that Endeavor and Hawks fought had lower stats and a poor health rating, which is Horikoshi confirming that he was weaker than at Kamino.

 

[Damage3245]

I haven't reread the current arc in a while. How do we know that current Shigaraki is as powerful as Prime All Might instead of Weakened All Might?

 

[Onelixy]

I haven't reread the current arc in a while. How do we know that current Shigaraki is as powerful as Prime All Might instead of Weakened All Might?

He himself states "prime", twice. But that's it iirc.

 

[SuperStar]

I know people don't take databooks seriously here (even though both were done by Hori) but it should be noted that before the current 2nd war arc, a booklet (My Hero Academia Villain Guide) was released showing the power of the final arc villains.



And AFO with his industrial mask was still at the very peak.

I think a lot of people try to use the so-called Prime & weakened AFO and All Might arguments as wiggle room, but clearly according to Hori, this isn't so.

As recently as a year ago, AFO still has S+ stats in everything but health/stamina and only current Shigaraki had the same stats.

Did these ever get translated?

 

[Therefir]

Did these ever get translated?

The Shigaraki one was translated, and it says that his physical ability is on par with All Might on his heyday.

 

[Bruh]

The Shigaraki one was translated, and it says that his physical ability is on par with All Might on his heyday.

God that subreddit is positively horrid

 

[Therefir]

God that subreddit is positively horrid

I changed the link to something else to protect the minds of the people here.

 

[Bruh]

I changed the link to something else to protect the minds of the people here.

 

[Bruh]

"Spinaraki" Sometimes I forget what fandom I'm a part of....

 

[SuperStar]

God that subreddit is positively horrid

I don't even want to know

 

[Bruh]

I don't even want to know

The logo alone put me through all 5 stages of grief, looking at the first comment put me through another 5

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Supersonic downgrade when?

 

[SuperStar]

Supersonic downgrade when?

Someone already jumped the gun.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

First there’s Cassie barely being capable of holding a hypersonic missile, then there’s Mirio being shocked at Deku being faster than sound, then there’s transonic Iida. Just a few more and the downgrade can take place.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Someone already jumped the gun.