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Naruto Uzumaki vs. Monkey D. Luffy

CiscoTheSoto said:
There's nothing that explicitly says that G5 would have activated at any time during his battles prior to when he fought Kaido. If he could activate that transformation any time, then why didn't he do it against Doflamingo, Cracker, Katakuri or Big Mom??
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First of all, Haki grows as the fight goes on, their haki gets stronger and more potent.



Secondly your applying with G5 headcanon / fanfic
 
How is this still continuing... And why 😑

Luffy still has precog in this key... As in knowing what will happen in the future by reading someone's mind, intent and stuff...

Also isn't luffy being downgraded/is downgraded?
 
MonkeyOfLife said:
How is this still continuing... And why 😑

Luffy still has precog in this key... As in knowing what will happen in the future by reading someone's mind, intent and stuff...

Also isn't luffy being downgraded/is downgraded?
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Yea he's got observation haki here, but it isn't as powerful as it was when he fought Katakuri, that's my point. And yea, I saw that Luffy's being downgraded... Again. I swear, I can't stand so many tier revisions for One Piece. It's just too much man.
 
Forgot about this thread, will respond soon since I still strongly disagree with what Cisco said about Haki Evolution and Gear 5th.
 
If Luffy's Precog is a ability he gains through some degree of evolution in battle, I don't think it should be allowed for him to use. This would be the equivalent of me putting Raditz in a match and my argument is "Well he could get angry enough and become a Super Saiyan and stomp", ya know?
 
If Naruto did kill Luffy it isn’t likely that their would be a body for G5 to come back from (or at least his heart wouldn’t be intact which is needed to come back)
That is assuming he auto gets G5 upon death in this key
 
theultimate5105 said:
If Naruto did kill Luffy it isn’t likely that their would be a body for G5 to come back from (or at least his heart wouldn’t be intact which is needed to come back)
That is assuming he auto gets G5 upon death in this key
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See now this is an argument that I can understand here since Luffy's heart wouldn't be in contact which is valid.


He should still have it in this key tho since it's an automatic function of the Devil Fruit itself.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
If Luffy's Precog is a ability he gains through some degree of evolution in battle, I don't think it should be allowed for him to use. This would be the equivalent of me putting Raditz in a match and my argument is "Well he could get angry enough and become a Super Saiyan and stomp", ya know?
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First of all, that's a terrible dogshit analogy. One has a very specific medium via means of emotional amps in the form of a rage boost. (And Goku has gotten mad before without turning super saiyan so 🤷 yeah not the best argument to make.) whereas Haki passively grows in battle without the need of such a medium.


We don't restrict abilities like that. That's more like me saying "Goku's Zenkai and his Ki abilities are restricted." which is absolutely absurd.
 
LordGinSama said:
First of all, that's a terrible dogshit analogy. One has a very specific medium via means of emotional amps in the form of a rage boost. (And Goku has gotten mad before without turning super saiyan so 🤷 yeah not the best argument to make.) whereas Haki passively grows in battle without the need of such a medium.


We don't restrict abilities like that. That's more like me saying "Goku's Zenkai and his Ki abilities are restricted." which is absolutely absurd.
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The idea of having Key's for a character is so that we can accurately split them into different categories and assign the logical powers that they have. Allowing a character to simply gain the powers of a different Key without it just being a transformation makes the Key's redundant. As such, giving Luffy Precog just because he eventually get's it, to me, is invalid.

A better analogy, since you seem so vehemently against that example, would be if, in the middle of Battle, Naruto applied the idea of the Rasenshuriken from a Key prior to the Kakuzu fight.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
The idea of having Key's for a character is so that we can accurately split them into different categories and assign the logical powers that they have. Allowing a character to simply gain the powers of a different Key without it just being a transformation makes the Key's redundant. As such, giving Luffy Precog just because he eventually get's it, to me, is invalid.
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Again, these are bad examples that your listing. Your implying it's an ability exclusive to Luffy, whenever the key thing about Haki is it's ability to grow in fights to higher levels. The key of Luffy being used irrelevant, as the ability doesn't stem from himself but rather something that Haki itself offers.
TheKingStrategist13 said:
A better analogy, since you seem so vehemently against that example, would be if, in the middle of Battle, Naruto applied the idea of the Rasenshuriken from a Key prior to the Kakuzu fight.
Click to expand...
This is also a very bad comparison to be making here. Your really trying to compare Naruto suddenly busting out a move that he himself created in a different key that happens much later, to Luffy's Haki growing stronger since it's a literal key attribute to Haki's power and abilities.



No disrespect but I don't really care what makes sense "to you." chief. That's how Haki works, end of discussion. Don't like it then make a CRT.
 
LordGinSama said:
Again, these are bad examples that your listing. Your implying it's an ability exclusive to Luffy, whenever the key thing about Haki is it's ability to grow in fights to higher levels. The key of Luffy being used irrelevant, as the ability doesn't stem from himself but rather something that Haki itself offers.

This is also a very bad comparison to be making here. Your really trying to compare Naruto suddenly busting out a move that he himself created in a different key that happens much later, to Luffy's Haki growing stronger since it's a literal key attribute to Haki's power and abilities.



No disrespect but I don't really care what makes sense "to you." chief. That's how Haki works, end of discussion. Don't like it then make a CRT.
Click to expand...

Fine then, show how the Pre Cog is a inherent part of Haki. Show the scans for Luffy being able to use the Pre Cog at this time period. If he does not use the Haki Pre Cog at this stage, then assuming that he has enough of a grasp of this ability to is a stretch. And assuming that he will grow to be able to use the Pre Cog during this battle is a fallacy. If he can't, which people here have been saying he can't, then he can't. It doesn't matter if you think he can develope this ability during the battle, that's just objectively a flimsy argument.

And while we're at it, you equating Goku's Zenkai's and Ki, which are abilities he already has and is shown using, to a ability that, according to what has been said in this thread, Luffy at this time has yet to attain, is much worse of a comparison.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Fine then, show how the Pre Cog is a inherent part of Haki. Show the scans for Luffy being able to use the Pre Cog at this time period. If he does not use the Haki Pre Cog at this stage, then assuming that he has enough of a grasp of this ability to is a stretch.
Click to expand...
You can find all that on luffy's profile and haki profile..
 
I'd reply to that argument if any of it were actively worth addressing.



The Haki page agrees with me, not your fanfic so next argument.
 
LordGinSama said:
I'd reply to that argument if any of it were actively worth addressing.



The Haki page agrees with me, not your fanfic so next argument.
Click to expand...
Literally nothing on the Haki page say's anything about Pre Cog
And this is... Literally, not a Fanfic- I'm not making interpretations of characters, I'm asking you to prove something that you are arguing that Luffy can use, since the burden of proof lay's on you to support your argument. I get you're trying to roast me but, you did a pretty poor job tbh.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Literally nothing on the Haki page say's anything about Pre Cog
And this is... Literally, not a Fanfic- I'm not making interpretations of characters, I'm asking you to prove something that you are arguing that Luffy can use, since the burden of proof lay's on you to support your argument. I get you're trying to roast me but, you did a pretty poor job tbh.
Click to expand...
Ok nevermind, literally right after sending this post I stumbled upon a section I seemingly missed
 
Ok, so.

Luffy's page states he is a Intermediate User of the Three Haki types at the beginning.

The Haki page specifies that only Advanced and above users of the Kenbunshoku Haki can use the Pre Cognition

If you can provide evidence that somehow Luffy would become a Advanced user during the fight without question, maybe you would have some merit to your argument. But as stands, since Luffy is not listed as a Advanced user, as far as this Wiki is concerned at least, he does not have Pre Cogniton.
 
Eminiteable said:
Literally says Precognition in the initial stage.
Click to expand...
  • Initial Stage: Haki users in this class have the ability to activate Observation Haki, but with no control on the activation of the ability. Without willing it, they can constantly sense the emotions of several people around them, but they cannot effectively utilize or disable the ability. When the ability to sense those emotions is too strong, the Haki user may also be overly affected by such emotions[18]. Some users like Koby were traumatized by the extreme levels of emotions flowing into his brain[10]. This level of proficiency is not ideal in scenarios of potent death and sadness, as users can constantly sense the last thoughts and the despair of unfortunate people around them.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Initial Stage: Haki users in this class have the ability to activate Observation Haki, but with no control on the activation of the ability. Without willing it, they can constantly sense the emotions of several people around them, but they cannot effectively utilize or disable the ability. When the ability to sense those emotions is too strong, the Haki user may also be overly affected by such emotions[18]. Some users like Koby were traumatized by the extreme levels of emotions flowing into his brain[10]. This level of proficiency is not ideal in scenarios of potent death and sadness, as users can constantly sense the last thoughts and the despair of unfortunate people around them.
Click to expand...
Scroll down.
Upjg8wJ.png
 
In my defense, the page is somewhat sizable and I was skimming through it for the most part. Regardless, it looks like I stand corrected.

Can a scan of how good this Precog is be supplemented then, please? Seeing as even the Advanced one specifies he see's seconds ahead, how much worse is this version of the Precog?
 
That's not the point... the point is that Luffy's Kenbunshoku will reach the level of future sight if his current Haki is being pushed. It's why he was able to go from being intermediate directly to Kata's level by fighting him and why Luffy was able to unlock and instantly grasp a new type of Haki just by fighting Kaido, same goes for his Buso in the same exact fight.



Rayleigh stated that Haki blooms and grows in battle, it's on the literal page. The fact that I need to sit here and spoon fed information that's right there in front of you.
 
LordGinSama said:
That's not the point... the point is that Luffy's Kenbunshoku will reach the level of future sight if his current Haki is being pushed. It's why he was able to go from being intermediate directly to Kata's level by fighting him and why Luffy was able to unlock and instantly grasp a new type of Haki just by fighting Kaido, same goes for his Buso in the same exact fight.



Rayleigh stated that Haki blooms and grows in battle, it's on the literal page. The fact that I need to sit here and spoon fed information that's right there in front of you.
Click to expand...
Annnnd just like that you ruined the argument yet again.

Can you prove that Luffy's Haki will grow to that point in a fight against Naruto? Learning a skill while fighting someone who uses said skill is very different from this sort of scenario. Of course, this isn't a Skill, but the same principal applies. Sure, Haki grow's in battle- I'm not rebutting that. I'm rebutting the idea that it will instantly grow to this rate for this battle specifically. If that's the case, what's the big difference between this key of his and the post Katakuri fight? Nothing worthwhile, no offense that little damage boost on his page.

Tell me, is this always your argument? That in every fight, his Haki will just advance to a further stage so he can use a new power in battle? I'm not trying to attack you personally, but the amount of fallacious reasoning and bounds in logic here are astounding. Send proof that he will certainly grow enough in this fight to reach that level. SHOW people why this fight specifically can be a catalyst for his Haki, don't just keep saying "But he'll become Advanced"... That's like if I argued that, say- Wait, wait, no, that's right- You're going to say how it's not the same thing/not comparable in spite of it getting the same idea across...


Eminiteable said:
Here are some examples:
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Click to expand...
Fair enough, I suppose that will give Luffy somewhat of a advantage on Avoiding attacks from Naruto, at least.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Can you prove that Luffy's Haki will grow to that point in a fight against Naruto? Learning a skill while fighting someone who uses said skill is very different from this sort of scenario. Of course, this isn't a Skill, but the same principal applies. Sure, Haki grow's in battle- I'm not rebutting that. I'm rebutting the idea that it will instantly grow to this rate for this battle specifically. If that's the case, what's the big difference between this key of his and the post Katakuri fight? Nothing worthwhile, no offense that little damage boost on his page.
Click to expand...
He has the potential to increase his Haki potency just from being in combat or being in a dangerous situation; Luffy's own buso potency improves decently from FMI to Dressrosa in the same key and he doesn't even fight other Haki users in those arcs between.
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