NEP IX problem (HSR)

[Furina003]

This CRT won’t be long, so I’ll get straight to the point. As we know, IX is one of the Aeons in HSR, who presides over the Path of Nihility, In its profile, it is explained that IX has NEP Type 2, but this is where the problem lies. As we know, NEP Type 2 is a form of Non-Existence obtained when a character is able to violate the logical system of existence and non-existence, placing them between the two. Or, more precisely, in our standards it is explained as follows:​

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.​

Meanwhile, the explanation on its profile page does not imply at all that IX is a being with that violates the logical system of existence and non-existence. In its profile, it is stated that IX is nothingness itself, and it is even described as the opposite side of the coin to reality, which implies nihility. This indicates that IX is merely a form of Material Nonexistence, It is also explained that ix is absolute nothingness and beyond the conceptual void consisted of pure nothingness,. However, these two things do not prove at all that IX is a creature that has violated the logic system of existence and non-existence, so it can be concluded that IX is just a pure emptiness which implies that he is only Nep type 1, not Type 2.​

So through this crt I suggest changing the NEP that IX has to Nep type 1 (Material Nonexistence)
yeah maybe that's all for now, thank you

staff vote
Agree : @Vietthai96 @Planck69
disagree :
Neutral :

 

[MSahla]

Bros starting to touch HSR now.

I'm not in

 

[Furina003]

Bros starting to touch HSR now.

I'm not in

I still have some delicious cooked for this verse

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Disagree. Nihility is not a simple Material Nonexistence, else it would still be defined in reality, just like many immaterial things

just like how Material existence and Material Nonexistence can be defined with reason and meaning. Nihility doesn't get defined and loses meaning and reason.

There is a reason why Death, End, and Destruction at the end, where everything ceases to exist, are defined as finality and not nihility

 

[Furina003]

Disagree. Nihility is not a simple Material Nonexistence, else it would still be defined in reality, just like many immaterial things

just like how Material existence and Material Nonexistence can be defined with reason and meaning. Nihility doesn't get defined and loses meaning and reason.

There is a reason why Death, End, and Destruction at the end, where everything ceases to exist, are defined as finality and not nihility

this doesn't even imply that it's nep2, and try to provide evidence if IX puts himself in a Paraconsistent Physiology, because there's absolutely nothing in his profile to suggest that

 

[Hecky2222]

this doesn't even imply that it's nep2, and try to provide evidence if IX puts himself in a Paraconsistent Physiology, because there's absolutely nothing in his profile to suggest that

You don't need to have Paraconsistent Physiology to be NEP 2

Again read it said "often" not always

So yeah I disagree if reasoning is just Transduality lacking

 

[Furina003]

You don't need to have Paraconsistent Physiology to be NEP 2

Again read it said "often" not always

So yeah I disagree if reasoning is just Transduality lacking

It's not necessary, but the character must place himself in a place where he violates the logic system of existence and non-existence, and ix is just pure nothingness, he is not in that condition.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

It's not necessary, but the character must place himself in a place where he violates the logic system of existence and non-existence, and ix is just pure nothingness, he is not in that condition.

he does violate it.
Reality works under reasons and logic etc
and he's a contrary and opposition to it

it is that simple

 

[Furina003]

he does violate it.
Reality works under reasons and logic etc
and he's a contrary and opposition to it

it is that simple

he is just another side of reality which is nothingness, it does not put him in position neither 1 nor 0, so he will not get nep2 at all, because he just is in position 0

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

That's not how it works.

Reality defines existence and nonexistence by default; there wouldn't be any immaterial things or incorporeal things in reality, which already shows there are

And logic dictates things such as the end of things, destruction of things, and immaterialness of things etc etc

For one to be nothingness and still not defined by those in reality shows, is it no longer just 0
But a separate side of the coin that is in complete opposition to whatever logic and order exist in reality


This will be my last response. If this doesn't convince you, then I cannot elaborate on it any further so that you would comprehend

 

[Furina003]

That's not how it works.

Reality defines existence and nonexistence by default; there wouldn't be any immaterial things or incorporeal things in reality, which already shows there are

And logic dictates things such as the end of things, destruction of things, and immaterialness of things etc etc

For one to be nothingness and still not defined by those in reality shows, is it no longer just 0
But a separate side of the coin that is in complete opposition to whatever logic and order exist in reality


This will be my last response. If this doesn't convince you, then I cannot elaborate on it any further so that you would comprehend

there is no scan that implies that, it is just your interpretation, the text literally says that ix is the other half of the coin, reality is shaped by logic, matter, life, order... IX is the other side of all that , which is nihility. nothing more and nothing less. that's all. yeah, that's enough, unless there is a new scan and let staff evaluate this

 

[Voidnether]

No, the Aeons are already established as NEP1 in their Aeon Physiology page. You'd have to debunk them being NEP1, as IX is deeper in terms of nonexistence than them all and that no Aeons are actually capable of interacting with IX, The Nihility.

Nonexistence on the Arbitrators databank refer to the Sea of Quanta altogether instead of IX, unless you'd want to affirm that IX in itself is equal to the Tree just like HooH?

 

[Voidnether]

there is no scan that implies that, it is just your interpretation, the text literally says that ix is the other half of the coin, reality is shaped by logic, matter, life, order... IX is the other side of all that , which is nihility. nothing more and nothing less. that's all. yeah, that's enough, unless there is a new scan and let staff evaluate this

And the context of IX being the opposite of reality is in terms that he's neither the Imaginary Tree or the Aeons/Sea of Quanta.

This already fits NEP2 that you'd have to be neither, also you can't really say it's a regular NEP1 either, you'd have to affirm it's a higher degree of NEP1 if it's somehow not NEP2.

 

[Furina003]

No, the Aeons are already established as NEP1 in their Aeon Physiology page. You'd have to debunk them being NEP1, as IX is deeper in terms of nonexistence than them all and that no Aeons are actually capable of interacting with IX, The Nihility.

this does not imply that IX is NEP2, nep 2 must be in a position that is not 1 or 0, and ix is just 0, it is the opposite of reality which is formed from logic, matter, life and order

And the context of IX being the opposite of reality is in terms that he's neither the Imaginary Tree or the Aeons/Sea of Quanta.
This already fits NEP2 that you'd have to be neither, also you can't really say it's a regular NEP1 either, you'd have to affirm it's a higher degree of NEP1 if it's somehow not NEP2.

Obviously this will be NLF if you consider ix not part of IT because IX itself is an aeon which is a representation of the philosophical concept in universe, there is not a single scan provided on his profile that proves he is a nep2. if you have a scan that supports nep2, please provide it

 

[Voidnether]

this does not imply that IX is NEP2, nep 2 must be in a position that is not 1 or 0, and ix is just 0, it is the opposite of reality which is formed from logic, matter, life and order

Obviously this will be NLF if you consider ix not part of IT because IX itself is an aeon which is a representation of the philosophical concept in universe, there is not a single scan provided on his profile that proves he is a nep2. if you have a scan that supports nep2, please provide it

IX was always the opposite of reality as in its neither the Tree or the Sea of Quanta, the reality is the Imaginary Tree, there's nothing NLF.

Why would it not? IX is neither the Tree (existence) or the Sea of Quanta (nonexistence) as the nonexistence, my problem with the Nonexistence there to be IX, is that you'd have to affirm IX is equal to HooH lol

 

[Furina003]

IX was always the opposite of reality as in its neither the Tree or the Sea of Quanta, the reality is the Imaginary Tree, there's nothing NLF.

yeah reality is formed, from logic, matter, life and order, and ix is the opposite of all this, present as pure emptiness, which you give is only an interpretation, even very contrary to the physiology of aeons which is a representation of the concept

Why would it not? IX is neither the Tree (existence) or the Sea of Quanta (nonexistence) as the nonexistence, my problem with the Nonexistence there to be IX, is that you'd have to affirm IX is equal to HooH lol

no one said ix is not IT and SoQ, give me the scan, and plus, we are discussing IX not Hooh, so keep discussing IX not Hooh, every aeons has a different path lol

 

[Furina003]

To be honest, after remembering that aeons are a representation of a concept, I became doubtful about aspect 2.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

he is just another side of reality which is nothingness, it does not put him in position neither 1 nor 0, so he will not get nep2 at all, because he just is in position 0

i dont wanna accuse you for NOT Writing this crt on your own considering that you literally had basic literacy jobbing when you literally said
"yeah aeons cant control other paths not even their own, nanook cant control destruction" while profile said this.
and now you literally claim that just the other side of reality is nothigness while it literally quotes that IX is opposite of.
existence, logic, life, matter order etc, not just "Nothigness" i dont know what are you even saying.
tho i think this MAY pass considering how strict NEP is sometimes, but for now? hard disagree.

 

[Furina003]

i dont wanna accuse you for NOT Writing this crt on your own considering that you literally had basic literacy jobbing when you literally said
"yeah aeons cant control other paths not even their own, nanook cant control destruction" while profile said this.

I don't mind you disagreeing, regardless nanook can use it like you proved, does it prove nep ix type 2? yeah, it's absolutely not ,

and now you literally claim that just the other side of reality is nothigness while it literally quotes that IX is opposite of.
existence, logic, life, matter order etc, not just "Nothigness" i dont know what are you even saying.
tho i think this MAY pass considering how strict NEP is sometimes, but for now? hard disagree.

you literally explained that ix is only type 1, not the condition he is not 1 or 0, he is only 0

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I don't mind you disagreeing, regardless nanook can use it like you proved, does it prove nep ix type 2? yeah, it's absolutely not ,

i dont think you understand what i meant, but it doesnt matter.

you literally explained that ix is only type 1, not the condition he is not 1 or 0, he is only 0

mf im correcting you that he isnt just "nothigness" but literally opposition of everything in that scan.

To be honest, after remembering that aeons are a representation of a concept, I became doubtful about aspect 2.

yeaaah

Abstract Existence (Type 1; Concept【Type 1】) & Nonexistent Physiology (Nature【Type 1】& All Aspects【Other:〈Time〉&〈History〉】

Someone mistakenly put "All Aspects" whilel only putting Other, Time and History as one. lol

 

[SuperNova55555]

I agree with removal but we should really be slowing down on these CRTs… let’s take it one at a time and get the previous ones finished

 

[Furina003]

i dont think you understand what i meant, but it doesnt matter.

mf im correcting you that he isnt just "nothigness" but literally opposition of everything in that scan.

Yes, honestly, i think, this explanation does not explain at all that it is nep2, nep2 must be in a condition where it is not 1 or 0, so the opposite of all reality does not prove that it is in that condition

yeaaah

Someone mistakenly put "All Aspects" whilel only putting Other, Time and History as one. lol

Looks like we have to change that

I agree with removal but we should really be slowing down on these CRTs… let’s take it one at a time and get the previous ones finished

you mean, finish crt CM1 and L1A first? i don't mind, but i think this can be done while this CRT running

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Looks like we have to change that

you can do that bcs it alr mentions which aspects are they instead of "all aspects" so it doesnt rly need a crt

 

[Voidnether]

Yes, honestly, i think, this explanation does not explain at all that it is nep2, nep2 must be in a condition where it is not 1 or 0, so the opposite of all reality does not prove that it is in that condition

Looks like we have to change that

you mean, finish crt CM1 and L1A first? i don't mind, but i think this can be done while this CRT running

CM1 falls under HI3 and the Imaginary Paraconsistent Physiology stuff

L1-A includes like the Paths CRT and the Aeon Sunday, so unless these are evaluated this CRT would have to be closed ngl

 

[Furina003]

CM1 falls under HI3 and the Imaginary Paraconsistent Physiology stuff

L1-A includes like the Paths CRT and the Aeon Sunday, so unless these are evaluated this CRT would have to be closed ngl

I think that's a different topic, so i think, this be ok

 

[Weaver261]

Disagree. In the description about Arbiters, it is written as such

但「均衡」的耐心无可估量——假以时日，「存在」与「无」注定再次完美相抵，宇宙法则的平衡必然得到尊重。

With 存在 being existence and 无 being non existence. This would be NEP type 1 in other fictions but not in Honkai because Honkai used Taoism in their cosmology. Everything in the universe is governed by Ying and Yang. We also have Yog Sothoth as Tao.
In Taoism, 无 is not just non existence but rather unmanifest and undifferentiated. That's why Wuji is treated as TD type 3 in vsb as well as type 2 NEP.

For example, it's stated over and over again that computer circuits exhibit only two states, a voltage for "one" and a voltage for "zero." That's silly! Any computer-electronics technician knows otherwise. Try to find a voltage representing one or zero when the power is off! The circuits are in a mu state.
- Wikipedia

 

[Furina003]

Disagree. In the description about Arbiters, it is written as such

With 存在 being existence and 无 being non existence. This would be NEP type 1 in other fictions but not in Honkai because Honkai used Taoism in their cosmology. Everything in the universe is governed by Ying and Yang. We also have Yog Sothoth as Tao.
In Taoism, 无 is not just non existence but rather unmanifest and undifferentiated. That's why Wuji is treated as TD type 3 in vsb as well as type 2 NEP.

So what makes you think this has anything to do with IX? This scan has absolutely nothing to do with IX, and doesn't imply that he's yin and yang, and it doesn't explain the point of the argument that requires proof that he's neither 1 nor 0.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Disagree. In the description about Arbiters, it is written as such

With 存在 being existence and 无 being non existence. This would be NEP type 1 in other fictions but not in Honkai because Honkai used Taoism in their cosmology. Everything in the universe is governed by Ying and Yang. We also have Yog Sothoth as Tao.
In Taoism, 无 is not just non existence but rather unmanifest and undifferentiated. That's why Wuji is treated as TD type 3 in vsb as well as type 2 NEP.

IX stands in Polarity with existence, which is something that Wuji doesn’t do with Taiji (Yin and Yang) as it is causally prior to duality (reason for its undifferentiation). The very fact IX is posited as the “opposite side of the coin” already bounds it to Yin and Yang.

 

[Voidnether]

IX stands in Polarity with existence, which is something that Wuji doesn’t do with Taiji (Yin and Yang) as it is causally prior to duality (reason for its undifferentiation). The very fact IX is posited as the “opposite side of the coin” already bounds it to Yin and Yang.

It'd still be higher degree though

 

[SuperNova55555]

It'd still be higher degree though

Btw, NEP2 requires IX to be negation of Imaginary Space or Imaginary in general, but I hope you realize how stupid that sounds when everything about IX is underpinned by the fact that is precisely a part of Imaginary.

Either way, I don’t even agree with the general Aeon NEP1.

Like this scan tells me straight-up nothing about what “absolute nothingness” means here. I’m giving it the benefit of the doubt and assume that the context here is actually talking about Imaginary Space, but it can so easily be understood in the same way the void of space is nothingness as well.

Nevertheless, I say we leave this conversation for later.

 

[Voidnether]

Btw, NEP2 requires IX to be negation of Imaginary Space or Imaginary in general, but I hope you realize how stupid that sounds when everything about IX is underpinned by the fact that is precisely a part of Imaginary.

Either way, I don’t even agree with the general Aeon NEP1.

Like this scan tells me straight-up nothing about what “absolute nothingness” means here. I’m giving it the benefit of the doubt and assume that the context here is actually talking about Imaginary Space, but it can so easily be understood in the same way the void of space is nothingness as well.

Nevertheless, I say we leave this conversation for later.

It doesn't have to, IX is neither the Tree or the Sea of Quanta as I've said earlier (you only need to be neither existence and nonexistence, I refuse to believe this isn't NEP2 but whatever the heck Wuthering Waves has rn is NEP2)

Aeons are concepts in the Imaginary Space, so their characteristics pertain to said Imaginary Space which is the absolute nothingness hence they lacked all those aspects so yeah

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Btw, NEP2 requires IX to be negation of Imaginary Space or Imaginary in general, but I hope you realize how stupid that sounds when everything about IX is underpinned by the fact that is precisely a part of Imaginary.

Either way, I don’t even agree with the general Aeon NEP1.

Like this scan tells me straight-up nothing about what “absolute nothingness” means here. I’m giving it the benefit of the doubt and assume that the context here is actually talking about Imaginary Space, but it can so easily be understood in the same way the void of space is nothingness as well.

Nevertheless, I say we leave this conversation for later.

According to this part the only void of nothigness shit would be img space so durandal passing trough absolute
nothigness would be imaginary space, and iirc stigma spaces are also connected to img space

 

[SuperNova55555]

It doesn't have to, IX is neither the Tree or the Sea of Quanta as I've said earlier (you only need to be neither existence and nonexistence, I refuse to believe this isn't NEP2 but whatever the heck Wuthering Waves has rn is NEP2)

Aeons are concepts in the Imaginary Space, so their characteristics pertain to said Imaginary Space which is the absolute nothingness hence they lacked all those aspects so yeah

Nihility were clearly has Imaginary Energy.

Also, IXs description also states it’s the other half of entropy (which is specifically in reference to Imaginary Energy)

So you’re functionally claiming that IX is not even an Aeon even though it’s necessarily a concept of the Imaginary

 

[SuperNova55555]

According to this part the only void of nothigness shit would be img space so durandal passing trough absolute
nothigness would be imaginary space, and iirc stigma spaces are also connected to img space

Yea what you linked me basically confirms that Imaginary Space is about as “nothing” as the void in the universe is. That is: it’s empty.

Not that it makes sense for something “non-existent” to literally have Space-Time (even if it is a chaotic space)

 

[Voidnether]

Nihility were clearly has Imaginary Energy.

Also, IXs description also states it’s the other half of entropy (which is specifically in reference to Imaginary Energy)

So you’re functionally claiming that IX is not even an Aeon even though it’s necessarily a concept of the Imaginary

So where would we draw the line that IX the opposite of reality? Reality is the Imaginary itself you know that, the Imaginary shapes and makes up reality fr

 

[SuperNova55555]

So where would we draw the line that IX the opposite of reality? Reality is the Imaginary itself you know that, the Imaginary shapes and makes up reality fr

And Imaginary also makes up HooHs duality… which includes nothingness. The Aeons just represent philosophies which is what affects Real Space. IX is nothingness as far as it pertains to Real Space only

 

[Weaver261]

IX stands in Polarity with existence, which is something that Wuji doesn’t do with Taiji (Yin and Yang) as it is causally prior to duality (reason for its undifferentiation). The very fact IX is posited as the “opposite side of the coin” already bounds it to Yin and Yang.

Since the reality includes logic itself which is true and false, IX being the opposite side of Logic violate the binary. To say IX is bound to yin and yang is to say IX is part of reality which is clearly proven wrong here. Yin and Yang are contained in the Imaginary tree and IX exists outside of that.

Matter, order, logic, and life... Everything that makes up "reality" is but one side of the coin. On the opposite side, of equal entropy, there exists "nihility." The two balance each other to create the complete universe.

The Masked Fools tell a parable of the birth of their beloved Aeon. When the Aeon of Elation climbed to the highest branch on the Tree of Existence, THEY saw the cold and despicable void, the stars operating like machinery, and how the meaning of all things bows before nothingness.

IX is stated to be outside of logic system thus not qualify for negation of 1.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Since the reality includes logic itself which is true and false, IX being the opposite side of Logic violate the binary. To say IX is bound to yin and yang is to say IX is part of reality which is clearly proven wrong here. Yin and Yang are contained in the Imaginary tree and IX exists outside of that.


IX is stated to be outside of logic system thus not qualify for negation of 1.

I just disagree in general that logic is meant to represent truth values here. It’s a very unclarified term that we’re wanking here btw; most likely it’s just referring to coherence and reason, which is not something unexpected as objects of understanding are only things that exist.

 

[Furina003]

Since the reality includes logic itself which is true and false, IX being the opposite side of Logic violate the binary. To say IX is bound to yin and yang is to say IX is part of reality which is clearly proven wrong here. Yin and Yang are contained in the Imaginary tree and IX exists outside of that.


IX is stated to be outside of logic system thus not qualify for negation of 1.

having no logic ≠ violating the logic system.
it is just pure nothingness, nothing more

Yin and Yang exist to explain the system of duality. Reality is formed because of the existence of a duality system. IX is the opposite of that. It is not the opposite of NOTHING OR EXISTENCE, but it is ONLY the opposite of EXISTENCE.

So IX is still part of Yin and Yang, it does not violate anything related to it.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

And Imaginary also makes up HooHs duality… which includes nothingness. The Aeons just represent philosophies which is what affects Real Space. IX is nothingness as far as it pertains to Real Space only

IX EE = Irontomb EE???

And Imaginary also makes up HooHs duality… which includes nothingness. The Aeons just represent philosophies which is what affects Real Space. IX is nothingness as far as it pertains to Real Space only

do you not understand that if the concepts like nihility (any other concept in general) ESPECIALLY nihility in this case would
lnstantly cease to exist because Irontomb destroyed universe and guess what? not even the very path irontomb is made to destroy wasnt destroyed so NO its not tied to real space when the very source of paths comes from imaginary itself DIRECTLY from imaginary space