Ninjago Conceptual Manipulation

[Ultimate-Rex1]

First of all, here was accepted that Balance is a concept of multiverse so therefore, now we will add Concept Manip.

Spoiler: Argument

Page for Concept Explanation
I have done page for the explanation of the concept to be added in Explanations

Concepts in Ninjago

vsbattles.fandom.com

Basic Terminology
Before we go to the explanation, first we should establish some basic terminologies of the verse so it will be easier to recognize them when we get to the main explanation itself.

• The balance between Light and Dark his is what is known as 'The Balance' in the verse, as Balance is created by the forces of light and darkness, this forces are Golden Power and Darkness, and is stated to affect and shape all of existence.
• If light or darkness is destroyed or changed, this will destroy Balance and all existence, including common sense and anything related to Balance.
• Balance existed before existence and before space and time itself, and it created all existence and this supports the existence of balance before existence.
• It is mentioned that if light is destroyed, existence is destroyed, and the same thing with darkness, and if occurred shifting The Balance poses a threat to the multiverse itself.
• A balance between light and darkness creates <The Balance>, which in turn gives rise to everything, where everything is a mixture of light and dark, and this balance is responsible for all existence. Furthermore, everything depends on it, as it interconnects all 16 realms.

Conceptual Nature of Light and Darkness (Balance)​

Now this section will be the main explanation
1. Light and Darkness is fundamental for the existence of the multiverse and everything it containsn

• Balance creates all of multiverse and everything it contains. We also know from all the evidence above that Balance is fundamental of multiverse.
• Having one of Balance powers (Golden power or Darkness) means possessing ability to shifting the Balance, which is stated to allow users to change/stabilize parallel side (it means if you has Darkness power so you can destroy light and the same thing with light) and in turn all reality.
• Balance also responsible for existence itself, as with Darkness or Golden power one can erase and restore Balance to erase and restore not only reality but also living beings, etc........and restore Balance allowing for the restoration of reality, and the multiverse and all erased beings who were erased by the erasure of balance.
• Golden Power Master and The Overlord, which that are Good and Evil itself, has been stated many times to be an importants beings responsible for balance, who controls all darkness and light. Their existence pretty much makes all realms stable.

2. Balance can alter and remove concepts.
Balance is responsible for the existence of all realms, and makes universe stable, the multiverse itself. In these multiverse there are dimensions such as the <Realm of Madness> - a another dimension having completely different concept of light and darkness and Master of Golden Power can create realm without concept of darkness. This means that Balance itself are capable of:

• Creating dimensions/realms that having completely different concepts; meaning that altered the concepts that govern said dimensions, spaces, realms
• Creating dimensions/realms that are devoid of these concepts; in turn meaning that Light and Darkness erased/removed these concepts from those dimensions, spaces, realms

3. Light and Darkness can influence and establish other, lesser fundamental abstracts
With Balance being responsible for all dimensions thus meaning balance itself responsible for abstracts and abstracts beings, for example:

• The Preeminent a embodiment of <Cursed Realm>, without The Preeminent, the Cursed Realm would be destroyed, it has been reported that when Nay killing the Preeminent, this caused the destruction of The Cursed Realm.
• Wu and Garmadon who represent creation and destruction without them there is no concept of being created or destroyed.
• And since Balance creates realms, it creates different laws and physics, and as we know, laws is something that is abstract.

In conclusion, the conceptual nature of Light and Darkness, represented through Balance, serves as the foundation of the multiverse and its existence. Balance ensures stability, creates realms, and governs abstract concepts that define reality, such as creation, destruction, and the laws of existence. The powers of Light and Darkness hold immense potential to reshape or erase reality, emphasizing the fragility and importance of Balance. Ultimately, the interplay between these forces highlights their significance in maintaining the order of the multiverse, while also showcasing their role in influencing and defining the very fabric of existence.

The Type of Concept​

So, from what above, Light and Darkness should at least fit Type 2, since it shapes, destroys, defines, affects and change all multiverse, etc...........However there are more:

From the basic terminologies section we know that:

• Balance existed before existence and before space and time itself.
• Darkness can destroy Balance without being affected itself, and Darkness and Golden power can affect Balance without being affected.
• The Overlord is evil itself and is embodiment of darkness, and he is completely unaffected when he affect balance, or when Clouse performed a similar feat. Master of Golden Power is also unaffected when The Overlord change the entire world to evil.
• Balance is not affected even after destroying one of the realms, unlike balance it which affects them when one of the realms is destroyed in order for there to interconnected.
• According to The Omega, to destroy completely all existences, they need to destroy the Light so that it doesn't stay or anything.

Conclusion: From all those evidences above, we can see that Darkness and Light predates and is completely independent from the existence that they shape, define and influence. This is a Type 1 Concept. And fundamental abstracts like Creation, Destruction, and other abstracts itself is confirmed to be a part of Balance, thus they also are Type 1 Concept. And Darkness and Golden power, is a powers with must always be in balance, and affect the balance and everything, The Overlord and Masters of Golden Power, will have Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) in full.

Spoiler: Conceptual Manip

The Overlord:
Physical bodies:

Conceptual Destruction (Type 1 [5-D]: Can permanently destroy The Balance, a 5-Dimensional Concept)

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 [5-D]: Power of The Overlord, can shifting The Balance, a 5-Dimensional Concept)

Golden Master:

Enhanced Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 [5-D]: Has power of Darkness and Light, who can shifting and destroy the Balance a 5-Dimensional Concept)

FSM:

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 [5-D]: Comparable to Golden Lloyd, who able to stabilize The Balance, a 5-Dimensional Concept)

USM:

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 [5-D]: Can stabilized The Balance, a 5-Dimensional Concept)

Wu with Golden Mach:

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1, 5-D; Shifted and stabilized the Balance using the Golden Mech)

Clouse with Dark Energy:

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1, 5-D; Disrupted the Balance using Dark Matter, which caused it to shift to the dark side.)

Omega with The Oni Army

Conceptual Destruction (Type 1, 5-D; The Oni Cloud is capable of destroying the concept of light)

Spoiler: Abstract beings

The Overlord:

Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Concept] - Is embodiment of concept of darkness and evil, he can't never destroyed, and without him, the Balance would be destroyed)

The Preeminent:

Abstract Existence (Type 2 - Is embodiment of Cursed Realm, without him, the Cursed Realm would be destroyed)

FSM and USM with Golden powers:

Limited Abstract Existence (Type 2 - Is embodiment of concept of light and good, without him, the balance would be destroyed)

Garmadon:

Abstract Existence (Type 2 - is part of balance, without him, there is no concept of destroying in Ninjago.)

Wu:

Abstract Existence (Type 2 - is part of balance, without him, there is no concept of creating in Ninjago.)

Agree: @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Agree with Concept Type 2), @FinePoint, @LordGriffin1000
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Agree with the OP so far. Tho I don't understand this part:

also balance creates new realms and forms of life

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Agree with the OP so far. Tho I don't understand this part:

It's meant Balance created the 16 Realms and everything it contains

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Agree with the OP

 

[Minaaaa]

Looks good but disagree with AE for those besides The Overlord as per the abstract existence page

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it.

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Looks good but disagree with AE for those besides The Overlord as per the abstract existence page

USM and FSM has control over abstraction due to Golden power as Lloyd after get his Golden Power managed to get Balance back to normal and even Wu using Golden power (The power of USM) to Balance system returns to normal after Clouse almost destroyed Balance, this proves the AE of Masters of Golden Power

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

but will be limited because it is able to change them to other people

---

The Preeminent are immortal being due to that the Cursed Realm would return, at Dragon rising it would be rebuilt again, which means that the Cursed Realm and the Preeminent will return, and this is thanks to the fact that the Cursed Realm is linked to the existence of Djinjago.

---

It is mentioned in the same statement that it is not possible to see a world without Creation and Destruction/Wu and Garmadon

 

[AigerTheKing]

Looks good but disagree with AE for those besides The Overlord as per the abstract existence page

Agree with Minaaa here but Preeminent should get AE as well

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It's meant Balance created the 16 Realms and everything it contains

Headcanon?

Looks good but disagree with AE for those besides The Overlord as per the abstract existence page

Agreed.

Agree with Minaaa here but Preeminent should get AE as well

She does not have immortality for her status. If this was the case, Cursed Realm wouldn't fall after her death.

As for the OP, I ain't readin' allat-

 

[Lloydblitzed]

As for the OP, I ain't readin' allat-

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm no expert on conceptual manipulation, my apologies.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Someone should call staff with Conceptual Manipulation Knowledge

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Someone should call staff with Conceptual Manipulation Knowledge

We've done this.

 

[AigerTheKing]

We've done this.

Oh ok

 

[YmTheSuper]

I agree with AE only for The Overlord and FSM.

I'm not sure about CM because you need to directly manipulate the abstract concept itself to qualify. The shifting of the balance is more so a result of corruption/purification rather than direct CM. (Probably need an expert in CM to evaluate this)

I also think that some things in the thread are just wrong:

Wu and Garmadon who represent creation and destruction without them there is no concept of being created or destroyed.

The idea that Destruction and Creation don't exist without Garmadon or Wu is just a misunderstanding of the text (It's a figure of speech that's hyperbolic and this interpretation contradicts the show since both Destruction and Creation predate them both and Destruction still existed after Garmadon's death)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I agree with AE only for The Overlord and FSM.

I'm not sure about CM because you need to directly manipulate the abstract concept itself to qualify. The shifting of the balance is more so a result of corruption/purification rather than direct CM. (Probably need an expert in CM to evaluate this)

Isn't the Balance partly made of evil and the other part is made of Light, so the corruption is technically affecting the concept

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I also think that some things in the thread are just wrong:

The idea that Destruction and Creation don't exist without Garmadon or Wu is just a misunderstanding of the text (It's a figure of speech that's hyperbolic and this interpretation contradicts the show since both Destruction and Creation predate them both and Destruction still existed after Garmadon's death)

In fact, this does not change anything, considering that the FSM himself, who is the embodiment of light in his era, is the one who made them be linked to Balance, even if Garmadon died, he still exists in 16 realms, and since Garmadon is Oni, so he can't die completely as his essence still existed.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Isn't it sort of against Type 1 Concepts to be affected by anything that goes on inside the reality they govern? If Light and Darkness need to be managed by people doing good or evil within existence, then they aren't independent concepts.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Isn't it sort of against Type 1 Concepts to be affected by anything that goes on inside the reality they govern? If Light and Darkness need to be managed by people doing good or evil within existence, then they aren't independent concepts.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to be completely independent.

Does it qualify for type 2 ?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Isn't it sort of against Type 1 Concepts to be affected by anything that goes on inside the reality they govern?

Yes, but Dark (The Overlord), Light and Balance are not affected by destroy of reality they govern, regarding The Overlord and Light, they don't influence reality in order to get excited on Balance, they directly affect Balance, which causes an impact on reality.

If Light and Darkness need to be managed by people doing good or evil within existence, then they aren't independent concepts.

It is not affected by reality they govern, but it's affect by the Dark and Light who created it, as they are the basis of the existence of Balance and everything. The only thing that affected Balance is Dark energy/matter and Light energy, they are the only ones who affect Balance and that came from Dark and Light.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@Firestorm808 @LordGriffin1000 You guys previously evaluated the Type 1 CM of this topic before and didn't agree with it. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP

 

[Lloydblitzed]

@Firestorm808 @LordGriffin1000 You guys previously evaluated the Type 1 CM of this topic before and didn't agree with it. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Can you place your thoughts asw?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll try and give this a look today.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Conceptual Manipulation

Several of those scans seem more hyperbolic and don't really match the interpretation, however this doesn't change my overall opinion that it's conceptual but I'm not 100% on it being type 1. The evidence is alright but light and darkness not being effected when the Balance is effected isn't solid proof because they technically are the Balance (two halves) so it's more so one just overtaking more than the other. I guess the the fact that the Balance is before the current universe is solid but their are worlds that exist where one part of the balance is missing or not their yet and it didn't go kaboom so it's full effects seem a bit off to me

Abstract Existence

As for Abstract Existence, I'd say the Overlord is probably fine. For the FSM and USM, I'm not sure Type 2 works, simply because it was just like the Overlord who didn't regenerate a body and remained as an abstract when defeated. So if you consider them equal parts of the Balance and one shows you can destroy it's physical form and it not regenerate, why would you assume the other side could?

It's a no for me regarding Wu and Garmadon, that statement isn't enough. They'd need regeneration/resurrection feats to back it up. And it doesn't mention they can't be destroyed, just that it's hard to imagine a world with just one of them.

No comment on the Pree yet.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

but their are worlds that exist where one part of the balance is missing or not their yet and it didn't go kaboom so it's full effects seem a bit off to me

The thing here is overall Balance (as multiversal concept) should affect them.

For example: here is Realm of Madness (Garm's realm from Season 1) - this is the Realm where is no Light. Yes, but we also have Cloud Kingdom - the realm with no Darkness. Idk, but imo these two forms some sort of balance on higher\multiversal scale while inside the realms local balance is shifted or nonexistent at all.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Conceptual Manipulation

Several of those scans seem more hyperbolic and don't really match the interpretation, however this doesn't change my overall opinion that it's conceptual but I'm not 100% on it being type 1.

Half of these scans come from Garmadon, Wu and FSM who have awareness of The Balance.

The evidence is alright but light and darkness not being effected when the Balance is effected isn't solid proof because they technically are the Balance (two halves) so it's more so one just overtaking more than the other.

They are The Balance itself, and they are equal

I guess the the fact that the Balance is before the current universe is solid but their are worlds that exist where one part of the balance is missing or not their yet and it didn't go kaboom so it's full effects seem a bit off to me

Do you have proof that there are worlds that do not have Balance ruling them, and Nadakhan father said that Balance rules all worlds but will rebuild them again because of him

Abstract Existence

As for Abstract Existence, I'd say the Overlord is probably fine. For the FSM and USM, I'm not sure Type 2 works, simply because it was just like the Overlord who didn't regenerate a body and remained as an abstract when defeated. So if you consider them equal parts of the Balance and one shows you can destroy it's physical form and it not regenerate, why would you assume the other side could?

It's a no for me regarding Wu and Garmadon, that statement isn't enough. They'd need regeneration/resurrection feats to back it up. And it doesn't mention they can't be destroyed, just that it's hard to imagine a world with just one of them.

No comment on the Pree yet.

I'll reply to this later.

 

[YmTheSuper]

Several of those scans seem more hyperbolic and don't really match the interpretation, however this doesn't change my overall opinion that it's conceptual but I'm not 100% on it being type 1. The evidence is alright but light and darkness not being effected when the Balance is effected isn't solid proof because they technically are the Balance (two halves) so it's more so one just overtaking more than the other. I guess the the fact that the Balance is before the current universe is solid but their are worlds that exist where one part of the balance is missing or not their yet and it didn't go kaboom so it's full effects seem a bit off to me

I do agree that the Balance is conceptual in nature although I'm not sure if any of the characters listed would gain CM from it (I guess you could make a case for The Overlord since he stated that he will destroy the Balance) since the shifting and stabilization of the balance is usually just a consequence of purification/corruption or other outside influences rather than direct manipulation and alteration of the concept of the Balance itself.

For the FSM and USM, I'm not sure Type 2 works, simply because it was just like the Overlord who didn't regenerate a body and remained as an abstract when defeated. So if you consider them equal parts of the Balance and one shows you can destroy it's physical form and it not regenerate, why would you assume the other side could?

I think AE Type 1 could potentially work for FSM since even after the death of his physical body in the 16 Realms he is still alive in his own dimension, The Grasslands similar to how The Overlord exists in his own dimension, The Void after the destruction of his physical body in the 16 Realms (further supported by WOG since The Grasslands and The Overlord's Void were written to be two opposites with The Void being a dark version of The Grasslands)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I do agree that the Balance is conceptual in nature although I'm not sure if any of the characters listed would gain CM from it (I guess you could make a case for The Overlord since he stated that he will destroy the Balance) since the shifting and stabilization of the balance is usually just a consequence of purification/corruption or other outside influences rather than direct manipulation and alteration of the concept of the Balance itself.

We saw Wu directly shift the Balance in Dark Island, and FSM should be able to do the same. And those who can harm Overlord should also obtain CM from it as he is litterally part of the Balance like REX said

Do you have proof that there are worlds that do not have Balance ruling them, and Nadakhan father said that Balance rules all worlds but will rebuild them again because of him

There's also WOG saying Overlord's evilness is spread accross the Universes that were created by FSM (Question 4) which supports Khanjikhan's statement

I guess the the fact that the Balance is before the current universe is solid but their are worlds that exist where one part of the balance is missing or not their yet and it didn't go kaboom so it's full effects seem a bit off to me

Well there's also the fact each Realms except 1 have a sister Realm (cuz there was 17 Universe originally before what happened in S5-S6), and there's fully light sided and dark sided Realms to compensate the other missing part. This is also the reason why when a Universe gets obliderated, its sister Universe will also get obliderated out of existence like what happened with Djinnjago and the Cursed Realm

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

As for Abstract Existence, I'd say the Overlord is probably fine. For the FSM and USM, I'm not sure Type 2 works, simply because it was just like the Overlord who didn't regenerate a body and remained as an abstract when defeated.

I'm going to make an adjustment regarding The Overlord's Regeneration, he currently has Regeneration (Mid-Godly) considering that he is able to regen himself after being completely destroyed (with his spirit) by USM

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Conceptual Manipulation

Several of those scans seem more hyperbolic and don't really match the interpretation, however this doesn't change my overall opinion that it's conceptual but I'm not 100% on it being type 1. The evidence is alright but light and darkness not being effected when the Balance is effected isn't solid proof because they technically are the Balance (two halves) so it's more so one just overtaking more than the other. I guess the the fact that the Balance is before the current universe is solid but their are worlds that exist where one part of the balance is missing or not their yet and it didn't go kaboom so it's full effects seem a bit off to me

Abstract Existence

As for Abstract Existence, I'd say the Overlord is probably fine. For the FSM and USM, I'm not sure Type 2 works, simply because it was just like the Overlord who didn't regenerate a body and remained as an abstract when defeated. So if you consider them equal parts of the Balance and one shows you can destroy it's physical form and it not regenerate, why would you assume the other side could?

It's a no for me regarding Wu and Garmadon, that statement isn't enough. They'd need regeneration/resurrection feats to back it up. And it doesn't mention they can't be destroyed, just that it's hard to imagine a world with just one of them.

No comment on the Pree yet.

Can you keep check out this thread?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I have an awkward feeling this is gonna die

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Conceptual Manipulation

Several of those scans seem more hyperbolic and don't really match the interpretation, however this doesn't change my overall opinion that it's conceptual but I'm not 100% on it being type 1. The evidence is alright but light and darkness not being effected when the Balance is effected isn't solid proof because they technically are the Balance (two halves) so it's more so one just overtaking more than the other. I guess the the fact that the Balance is before the current universe is solid but their are worlds that exist where one part of the balance is missing or not their yet and it didn't go kaboom so it's full effects seem a bit off to me

Abstract Existence

As for Abstract Existence, I'd say the Overlord is probably fine. For the FSM and USM, I'm not sure Type 2 works, simply because it was just like the Overlord who didn't regenerate a body and remained as an abstract when defeated. So if you consider them equal parts of the Balance and one shows you can destroy it's physical form and it not regenerate, why would you assume the other side could?

It's a no for me regarding Wu and Garmadon, that statement isn't enough. They'd need regeneration/resurrection feats to back it up. And it doesn't mention they can't be destroyed, just that it's hard to imagine a world with just one of them.

No comment on the Pree yet.

Can you keep check out this thread please!

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I have an awkward feeling this is gonna die

I hope not

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[YmTheSuper]

Bump

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump