Ninjago's Tiering 2

[Lloydblitzed]

Your whole argument falls apart if the merge isnt tier 2. If we are to believe mergequakes are tier 2, it hinges on the fact of the merge itself being tier 2, as they are after effects of it. The mergequakes CANT be stronger then the merge itself, its a contradiction.

I'd like to point out my argument still imply the Merge is Tier 2 aswell. Again, waiting for staff, and Bambu said he's replying soon

 

[RenderGK]

disagree with the degradation.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Jesus, 8 pages now + 11 pages of first CRT

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[Minaaaa]

Bump

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP. We're still awaiting Mr. Bambu's conclusion

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[JJSliderman]

Sorry, been out of the loop for awhile, what's being argued now?

 

[Minaaaa]

we're waiting for mod response

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sorry, been out of the loop for awhile, what's being argued now?

Basically supporters of the downgrade are trying not to let this thread to die

 

[Minaaaa]

Bump

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

This one also has four pages already, eh.

My last position was generally agreeing with Minaa, but then the arguments continued on for a great deal of time. It was remade and that seems to have continued.

If someone could offer me a conclusion of the arguments of both sides on each point in the OP, I'd very much like that. Just one, please, or perhaps one from either side of the argument if that would help avoid bias.

OP starter side thinks:

• GWs feat is vague and the Star explosion scale to MW + GWs so the Ninjas would scale to half of them (Low 4-C) but the Ninjas would at least scale to the Continental feat from the Scythe of Quake
• The Onis can't be 2-C or even Tier 2 as "we don't know how they destroy the Realm even if its stated they can destroy a Realm", thus the feat is unquantifiable
• Mergequake feat doesn't scale to AP cuz "The problem with this is closing the mergequake doesnt demerge the realms, it just... closes the mergequake, preventing damage to the immediate area. What we are given is that, Merge causes realms to combine -> Realms are unstable due to this and cracks in reality appear (Mergequakes) -> Things come through the Mergequake or suck people in, therefore they close them. Closing them just simply stops the damage, not demerge the realms. As a single Mergequake doesnt have a significant effect on anything, its just hax. Closing a crack in reality is just an unquantifiable feat."

The Counter-Argumenters/does who disagrees thinks:

• GWs ALONE fully scale to 4-C, which is all explained in THIS BLOG
• Mergequakes are 2-C for the reasonning explained by Lloydblitzed right above Garrixan's 2nd comment in this CRT
• Onis fully scale to Tier 2 as they are stated to be capable of destroying a Realm, which is an entire Space Time continuum, and also just because we don't know how they destroy it specifically doesn't mean the feat is unquantifiable. And also "Destroying Realms is straight up statement as it goes. Can’t see how it means ruling over it. Unless it is specified that erasing life is meant and NOT the Realms, then it is assumed that Onis will destroy all of the Realms. This is how this wiki works. When you have statement “I can destroy universes” and both narrative and logics support it, then you do NOT assume that they are just destroying the life. You assume that they destroy universes."
  
  
  (Main points of both sides of debate for Mr. Bambu's decision)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

(this is an evil thread and every time I speak it doubles in length)

Minaaa, please set up your own "summary" post, or link to one you believe still stands. Then I will give a final synopsis. I'm sorry that I can't give the thread its due and read through it all, I'm very busy of late and can't even speak on most of the threads I am called to.

 

[Minaaaa]

(this is an evil thread and every time I speak it doubles in length)

Minaaa, please set up your own "summary" post, or link to one you believe still stands. Then I will give a final synopsis. I'm sorry that I can't give the thread its due and read through it all, I'm very busy of late and can't even speak on most of the threads I am called to.

My stances from this thread and the previous ones remain unchanged excluding the mogra scaling

for the star feat, i still disagree with anyone scaling to it (or scale to a lower tier) for the reasons i pointed out in both threads and still agree with it being an outlier, due to it being the only feat in the series like this. Whose level of power equivalent to the feat hasnt been matched or surpassed since

for garmadon scaling to the oni, i still disagree with. Given that from Wu's statment, episode descriptions, guidebooks, and the trailer for March of the Oni, we can confirm the oni arent actually destroying universes or anything at all. Its just a simple invasion.

For mergequakes, i still disagree with. The current justification on their profiles is that mergequakes can destroy the universe. Which is true, but not for single ones which the ninja are always shown closing, but rather multiple of them happening at once

 

[JJSliderman]

Not that it matters but:

I think the 6-A possibly Low 4-C approach from the start of the thread is fine because there’s nothing contradicting the ninja scaling to at least half the star feat, and it being an outlier I disagree with because there are many series that have one off feats that are way above everything else, which are still used. The 6-A feat is entirely based on a single statement.

For the Oni, they should probably be 2-C regardless due to scaling to Oni Garmadon, with them destroying the realms as possible support.

And for mergequakes, the total merge is 2-C, but the individual quakes should be 3-A. All the realms occupy the same time continuum post-merge, so the merges aren’t actually fusing two space-times together. But they are the result of two universe’s space fusing together, and closing the merge quake is actively countering universes trying to merge with each other and pushing one universe back, so it should still be uni.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

(this is an evil thread and every time I speak it doubles in length)

Real (Ninjago is blessed cursed with long CRTs)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

And for mergequakes, the total merge is 2-C, but the individual quakes should be 3-A. All the realms occupy the same time continuum post-merge, so the merges aren’t actually fusing two space-times together. But they are the result of two universe’s space fusing together, and closing the merge quake is actively countering universes trying to merge with each other and pushing one universe back, so it should still be uni.

The Realms continuums themselves didn't merge, all we know is that their time synced up with each other, which still implies they are seperate continuums coexisting in the same space bc syncing up ≠ merging. And when is it ever said only their spaces was merging? The statements were specifically say the Realms themselves are trying to share the same area, not only their space

 

[JJSliderman]

The fact you can physically travel from one realm to another with normal ships inherently implies they exist in the same time continuum.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The fact you can physically travel from one realm to another with normal ships inherently implies they exist in the same time continuum.

From what was the focal points of the Realms*

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The fact you can physically travel from one realm to another with normal ships inherently implies they exist in the same time continuum.

Universe 7 is a prime example of multiple continuums u could travel to physically while existing in the same place

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

• The feat itself is 4-C (divided, as it were, between the Golden Weapons- this renders it Low 4-C). I don't think the feat is actually very vague, although certain facets of it may be. I think the scaling can be fine as outright this, but it would definitely be Low 4-C and not the full 4-C (dividing that original 4-C feat 5 ways- the 4 golden weapons and the mega weapon used in the creation of said star). If it would hasten the thread's progress to align with a position, I would go with the proposal of the OP (At least 6-A, likely Low 4-C), but I think the best interpretation is "Low 4-C" outright.
• I agree with the OP's interpretation of the Low 2-C Oni feat. Some sources appear to support Low 2-C singularly, but when taken as a whole, one finds it difficult to take it as legitimate universe destruction. There's simply too many other words used to describe their actions than "destroy"; most seem to describe it as just generally destroying the civilizations within, covering the world with darkness, etc.
• Mergequakes have vague mechanics, and I would agree that destroying one does not firmly result in Low 2-C scaling: it is not solid enough for use on this wiki, by my reckoning.

So I'm fine with the Star feat being scaled to, just not the full value for each weapon. Tier 2 scaling in this situation seems bad and ought to be removed.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I agree with the OP's interpretation of the Low 2-C Oni feat. Some sources appear to support Low 2-C singularly, but when taken as a whole, one finds it difficult to take it as legitimate universe destruction. There's simply too many other words used to describe their actions than "destroy"; most seem to describe it as just generally destroying the civilizations within, covering the world with darkness, etc.

I have to mention that there's no indication the Oni use their cloud to destroy all the Realms, which is what all the counter argument supports

• Mergequakes have vague mechanics, and I would agree that destroying one does not firmly result in Low 2-C scaling: it is not solid enough for use on this wiki, by my reckoning.

Its not really "destroying" a Mergequake, its stopping 2 Realms fusion which is what is argued to be Low 2-C or 2-C

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I have to mention that there's no indication the Oni use their cloud to destroy all the Realms, which is what all the counter argument supports

That's not really my position either. My position is that they probably straight up aren't destroying the realms in any way that is applicable to our tiering system, rather occupying/conquering them and shrouding them in darkness.

Its not really "destroying" a Mergequake, its stopping 2 Realms fusion which is what is argued to be Low 2-C or 2-C

Petty semantics, I think, are unimportant- my position stands.

 

[JJSliderman]

It’s not semantics if the mergequakes happen and grow bigger as a direct result of two universes trying to merge together, so making a merge quake smaller and eventually closing it is equivalent to pushing one universe back from its attempted merge.

Plus the Oni are 2-C anyway, Oni Garmadon is 2-C and the Omega defeated Oni Garmadon.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It’s not semantics if the mergequakes happen and grow bigger as a direct result of two universes trying to merge together, so making a merge quake smaller and eventually closing it is equivalent to pushing one universe back from its attempted merge.

Their size growing doesn't intrinsically mean anything. A thing achieving a Low 2-C effect does not inherently mean it requires a Low 2-C power to cease. We would not assign this logic to an individual doing this, nor to an object. A phenomena has no special handling, I see no reason why we would assign that.

I've given my judgement.

 

[JJSliderman]

The size is growing because the universe is getting closer and closer to completing its merge into another universe, and the ninja have to channel heavy amounts of concentration and elemental power just to close a single quake (and thus stop two universes from merging).

 

[Lloydblitzed]

My position is that they probably straight up aren't destroying the realms in any way that is applicable to our tiering system, rather occupying/conquering them and shrouding them in darkness.

Again, there's many statements saying they would blow up the entire space-time. Their power is Destruction as well, it wouldn't make sense for them to stop at just conquering Realms

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Their size growing doesn't intrinsically mean anything. A thing achieving a Low 2-C effect does not inherently mean it requires a Low 2-C power to cease. We would not assign this logic to an individual doing this, nor to an object. A phenomena has no special handling, I see no reason why we would assign that.

Stopping the fusion of Low 2-C structures requires a Low 2-C amount of power or more to be stopped

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That's not really my position either. My position is that they probably straight up aren't destroying the realms in any way that is applicable to our tiering system, rather occupying/conquering them and shrouding them in darkness.

Excuse me, but how leaving nothing behind and straight up being stated to destroy all the Realms is occupying or conquering them? There are no statements of them wanting to conquer them either. It’s head canon that the OP made up based on what we "see" in the show and taking it at face value and ignoring multiple statements.

Petty semantics, I think, are unimportant- my position stands.

Mhm.

Anyways, it looks like death of Ninjago is coming soon.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

• The feat itself is 4-C (divided, as it were, between the Golden Weapons- this renders it Low 4-C). I don't think the feat is actually very vague, although certain facets of it may be. I think the scaling can be fine as outright this, but it would definitely be Low 4-C and not the full 4-C (dividing that original 4-C feat 5 ways- the 4 golden weapons and the mega weapon used in the creation of said star). If it would hasten the thread's progress to align with a position, I would go with the proposal of the OP (At least 6-A, likely Low 4-C), but I think the best interpretation is "Low 4-C" outright.

Taken from the blog:

"Destroy" does not always mean literal explosion or anything else. One of the definitions of "destroy" is "to damage something so badly that it cannot be used". We see Megaweapon being heavily damaged right before it collides with other Golden Weapons and right after it is shooted by them for a decent amount of time, which further supports the idea that Ninjas literally used Golden Weapons to destroy Megaweapon by shooting at it via their Golden Weapons.

Its clear the MW didn't contribute in the Star creation

Petty semantics, I think, are unimportant- my position stands.

How is stopping the fusion "uninmportant" to the feat? The merging of space-times is part of what the wiki consider as Tier 2 feat, I don't see how unmerging them is irrelevant

"Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc

 

[Minaaaa]

• I think the scaling can be fine as outright this, but it would definitely be Low 4-C and not the full 4-C (dividing that original 4-C feat 5 ways- the 4 golden weapons and the mega weapon used in the creation of said star). If it would hasten the thread's progress to align with a position, I would go with the proposal of the OP (At least 6-A, likely Low 4-C), but I think the best interpretation is "Low 4-C" outright.

wouldnt we have to diving the original feat by 8 since the mega weapon is the combination of another 4 golden weapons? id be fine with them being Low 4-C if itll end the thread

 

[Minaaaa]

we currently have three staff that have commented, Bambu and Garrixian agree with downgrading and DDM seeing tier 2 as fine but idk if their stances have changed

​