One Piece Blue Planet Calc Revisions

[Floxy178]

Not so sure about that method since it explicitly uses the density of air to find the density of the dust storm. Moons don't have the atmosphere for air.

Actually that part is irrelevant, since you'd be directly applying 2.915e-11 kg/m^3 to the volume

 

[Floxy178]

Can you elaborate? I tried to be very accurate to the pixel of each end.

For most parts dust doesn't reach the distance you use for those spikes, only in specific directions. Actual hemisphere with such radius would be visually bigger than what we see in the panel.

 

[Viott]

Not so sure about that method since it explicitly uses the density of air to find the density of the dust storm. Moons don't have the atmosphere for air.

I didn’t mean this in terms of density.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

There are a few reasons why this assumption is utilized.

First of all, the Grand Line is vast on a global scale to where it dwarves every known relevant island that we see, and if Alabasta was large to the scale that it's being assumed to be

Alabasta is an extremely large island, and this is by the in universe standards of one piece as well

Alabasta is known as a large island to the point where it is seen as a country with large states and cities in it. Alabasta is one of the few islands known for being a "country", contrasted with the other islands that usually hold one city and such. Alabasta is one of the nations known to have a formal government with relations with the World Government. They are large enough to be an established colony.
Meanwhile the other islands are the size of a chunk of football fields and they hold either a forest ora city.

The purpose of Alabasta is to be a different beast regarding landmarks compared to the rest of the islands around it which are just tourist traps the size of my street.

You have detailed this yourself in one of your previous responses. So it would not be ridiculous to say that Alabasta would be visible in comparison to the Grand Line itself.

Yet in every single shot we see of the planet, we see that Alabasta is never shown. Alabasta is a dot on the map in every instance when we see the grand line. We have never seen Alabasta on any world map.

Using these scans to establish some sort of consistency of Alabasta not even being visible in comparison to the grand line makes absolutely no sense. These scans don’t even have consistency between what island ARE actually shown. And two of the scans you provide are just for the purpose of explaining the Grand and Red Line, that do not show any islands or landmarks, and wouldn’t make sense to show any other islands or landmarks, as they are just explaining the Grand Line and Red line. Using scans that do not even have consistency between themselves in terms of islands in order to establish consistency with islands shown is not a reliable method.

Why is that?
It's because the Grand Line is an ocean extravagantly large that it takes you days just to get to the next island in the path.
In reality, we can take the biggest island that we can calculate that we know is on the Grand Line, and if it isn't shown on the map of the Grand Line, we can assume it's like... a pixel large and highball the hell out of it. But we didn't. We calculated the size of the climate zone for one island and said that that was the Grand Line's width, and apparently it's "too much".

I address this below, but it does not take days to reach the next island in the path of the grand line

Secondly, we know it doesn't contain the damn Calm Belt.
The Calm Belt is a textureless area of sea from birds eye views.

That is not true. The calm belt contains texture numerous times throughout the manga. Even from a top-down view. The texturing seen in that scene is simply the texturing oda does in general on all of the water, when it gets further away from the screen. You can see this same texturing all throughout the calm belt. Hell, you can even see it in your own scan you provide further down. Notice as how you go further upwards, and further backwards from the POV, the water automatically defaults to the same texturing? This same default texturing is also used for islands all throughout the Grand Line as well. I can show even more examples of this too.

We know this through the anime, which shows the difference between the water of the grand line and the water of the calm belt.

This is an anime only scene. The anime adaptation is not considered canon to be able to consider its integration into, or priority over, the original timeline as per our canonicity standards. This would include anime exclusive scenes such as this.

This is because the Calm Belt has no wind or waves, hence the name "calm belt".

The Calm Belt does have waves. As I explain further down

Comparing this with the texture of the ocean surrounding Alabasta and you can see that the water around Alabasta is part of the Grand Line, not part of the Calm Belt.
I had to use the anime cause when I used the manga I was greeted with arguments about "Oda draws all water like that", which isn't even the case.

Even appealing to the anime only differences, the “texture” shown here does not at all contradict with what we are shown exclusively in the anime with the scan you previously provided. Comparing them side-by side does not really reveal any contradictions between texture or appearance of the water of the Calm Belt and the water we see around Alabasta. Or at least anything that would match the Grand Line any more.

From close range, they have no waves. This is the water of the grand line vs the water of the calm belt.
The only reason why close range we see water appear like this in the Calm Belt is due to the presence of Sea Kings moving around, and even with that, it would be localized "textured water".

Your example of the water of the Calm Belt actually includes texture ironically. The argument that the waves we see in the calm belt are only due to the movement of sea kings is also inconsistent. There are multiple times where we see waves in the calm belt without the presence of sea kings. And just a few panels after the example you give of the Calm Belt having no waves, at least 10 separate sea kings appear. So the mere existence of sea kings under the surface likely are not what are causing the waves in most of these panels, especially considering we do not see sea kings at all in the vicinity. To assume that almost every one of these instances of waves and detailing is caused by seakings that are simply offscreen, at least I think, is a pretty ridiculous assumption. And again, in scan of the calm belt one you can also see that as the water gets further from the screen, the water defaults to the same detailing that oda uses on any water that is far away. And regarding that very same scan, there are instances where the Grand Line has less waves than that

Yet in the far shot, like you said, each pixel contains an area of over 227km by 227km. Unless the sea kings moving around can manipulate hundreds of thousands of kms of water to make it look similar to the Grand Line, then no.

I don’t see why the sea kings would need to manipulate hundreds of thousands of kms of water for it to be indiscernible. The texturing we see is the exact same texturing we see Oda use on any water that is further away from the camera. And I don’t even know that it’s impossible for them to manipulate that much water. Sea kings are over 5km long and some are much longer. And there are hundreds of them. Shirahoshi is considered an ancient weapon with the “power to destroy the world” just for being able to control them. The power to control sea kings is put into the same category as something that was able to wipe an entire island off the map and raise the global sea level by one meter in a single use. That category being as one of the three ancient weapons. These are the same ancient weapons that in the past raised the global sea level by 200 meters. And if we were to take the assumption that what we see is not the basic texturing Oda does on all of his water, and in fact pronounced waves that are actually this big, these things would easily qualify as tsunamis, which can travel tens of thousands of kilometers, and likely much further within the One Piece verse. You yourself are even open to the idea of residual waves from the Grand Line.

In fact, in the Chap 101 scan you use, the only reason why it even has moving water is the residuals from the grand line.

So even if you consider the basic water detailing seen in the panel to be actual pronounced waves, that would still not rule out the Calm Belt being present at all within it.

Oda might draw whatever he wants however he wants, but if he draws them both in the same map he would showcase a difference, like he did in the shot on chapter 101.
So when we show this shot intending to show Grand Line water and people try to say it's part of the calm belt, you can understand the frustration.

This has already been addressed. The main issue is that there would be no discernible difference that could be showcased between the Calm Belt and Grand Line under the conditions of the panel. This also ventures into the weird and speculative territory of author’s intent

In regards to the size of Alabasta and trying to minimize the distance between Alabasta and other islands, it's just... wrong. Dangerously wrong.

First of all, Oda was able to show a crack on Alabasta in the far shot, representing the split in the island meant to show a 50km river. So if Oda is capable of showcasing a 50km crack on a 227x227 panel, he can do whatever he wants.

I find it hard to believe that this is meant to be the sandora river. It doesn’t match the shape at all, nor does it connect to the bottom of Alabasta. It seems much more likely it is supposed to be basic detailing, or just mountain ranges.

The closest island to them outside of their next location was Drum Island, and the Strawhats took 9 days to get to Alabasta from Drum Island.
(We know it's been 9 days that they were at sea due to Luffy eating all their food on their 5th day away from Drum Island, and prior to them arriving, Zoro notes that it's been 4 days since they last ate, which was on day 5).
Meanwhile, they were able to sail from the center of Alabasta and around in less than what, 12 hours? This is a giant highball since they slept for most of it then woke up and had to ride the Super Spot-Billed Ducks to get their ship, which canonically while making a mad dash on the ducks to the dock on the river takes like 3 hours, so realistically it was 9 hours maximum.
With the height of Alabasta being 8,000 km, and they went down the bottom then around it and up again, it would've been at least 10,000 kilometers that they covered in maybe, 9 hours?
Simple math to find the closest island, 216 (hours in 9 days) / 9 (hours) * 10,000 km (minimum distance) = 240,000 km. More than double what's even calced in the panel. This is the distance to the LAST ISLAND.

A few problems with this. First, we do not know Alabasta is the island to come after drum island in its route. We don’t even know if they skipped any islands on their way to Drum Island, since they didn’t wait the one year necessary for their log pose to set from little garden, instead they just ignored their log pose and eternal pose and sailed aimlessly for three days until encountering an island. We know this because on their first day on Drum Island, Kureha states that Nami was infected 3 days ago from Little Garden, which they also spent far less than a day on. For extra context for anyone else reading this, a log pose is a type of compass used to navigate one of the paths on the Grand Line. Once you reach an island in the Grand Line, the log pose must take a certain amount of time to set, after which it will begin to point towards the next island within the path. An eternal pose is a compass that eternally points to a single Island. At the point in the story at which the strawhats travel to Alabasta, they are in possession of an eternal pose to Alabasta. The strawhats very likely used their eternal pose to travel to Alabasta as well. Earlier in this thread you claimed that Alabasta was simply the next island, so the strawhats just didn’t need to follow the eternal pose at all, but where did you get this from? I don’t think it’s ever stated that Alabasta is the island to come next after Drum Island. Why would the strawhats even follow their log pose instead of the eternal pose out of Drum Island? Never are they given the information that Alabasta is apparently the next island their log pose would point to from Drum Island, so they would have no reason to prioritize navigating with the log pose over the eternal pose especially when they have no time to waste. Along with the fact that we know there are Islands much closer to Alabasta that are possible to navigate to Alabasta from, such as Nanimonai. Also, since you like to use anime-only scenes, here is an anime-only scene showing that they did in fact use the eternal pose to travel to Alabasta. This whole argument is a little weird coming from you in the first place considering one of your main arguments is this.

Oda allows his ships to move as fast as he wants them to.

We see that the width of the actual grand line dwarves every "island to island" distance. The distance between 2 islands is a fraction of the size of the grand line.
Yet we said that this was the size of the entirety of the Grand Line. We highballed it and said that the distances on the panel that we can see of Alabasta, an island that is a dot on the map of the world, and we're saying that the shot showing its surroundings is the entirety of the ocean that dwarves it, and apparently this is too much?
No.

This whole point is rendered null above. But something else I want to address regarding this scan is that, we see that there are actually 15 islands within the middle path of the Grand Line, and I shouldn’t need to say that the strawhats did not travel through 15 Islands using their log pose before reaching the Red Line, only about two-thirds of that number. So this would mean that they would’ve had to skip a few islands on their journey through Paradise.

If there were other islands so close, then it would imply that Alabasta is actually super close in proximity to the Rd Line since there's only a few islands behind it. But guess what we don't see in the birds eye view. The Red Line.

These things are not close, and trying to flip the large result of the Alabasta climate zone onto us by saying "an island would have to be 200km long to be a dot on the map so maybe there's islands close" is just... dishonest.

Due to my points above, we would not actually know how many islands are behind Alabasta. As well as it being incredibly likely there actually IS an island included in that zoom out, due to the existence of the island Nanimonai, which is considered to be close to Alabasta, so close in fact that just an eternal pose to there is considered enough to get to Alabasta. Either it’s just that close, or it is the island before Alabasta within it’s path, allowing travel to Alabasta directly from it. It’s existence would mean either Drum Island isn’t the island before Alabasta in it’s path, or that there is very likely an island that is present within the zoomed out panel.

Next you said this.
Which shows a lack of general understanding of the series.
Alabasta is canonically in the central path of the Grand Line's 7 paths. We know this because the Straw Hats took the central path.
We know this because the Straw Hats eventually had to hit Fishman Island on their log path, the Island in the center of the planet, shown on the map of the paths to be in the center.
We know it's in the center of the planet because it's directly stated to be under Marijoa, the Island in the center of the grand and red line.
We know it's in the center of the red and grand line because it's stated to be in the center of the red and grand line, which is why it's called the center of the world.
Even if none of this was said, the central path is literally highlighted in chapter 105. Hinted to be the path that Crocus, the doctor speaking, took when he went with Roger, and Crocus and the Straw Hats took the same damn path.
To say that Alabasta could be on the outskirts of the grand line is just... ignoring canon for bad reasons.

This point I conceded on in discord, but that does not stop some of the points here from being faulty. Using the statement “center of the world” doesn’t provide any backing to this argument. Like I’ve already said. There is no center of the surface of a globe. The “center of the world” in reference to Mary Geoise is obviously in reference to what it represents, the center of the world government. The highlighted path argument isn’t very good either. It was a visualization of how the paths work as crocus explained them. They hadn’t even chosen a path at the time of the panel.

It isn't inconsistent to say that they sail over 250 km/h. Not in the slightest.
I noted prior the scenarios where the ship has canonically moved over 250 km/h to prove a point that "Oda can allow ships to be as fast as he wants them to be", but instead you guys focused on the 1 relativistic statement and smeared that through pages.

So you do recall your statement of Oda allowing ships to be as fast as he wants them to be. Oda allowing his ships to be as fast as he wants to be is something I never disagreed on. This same thing applies to everything within One Piece. Oda can make anything in One Piece exactly as he wants it to be, but this doesn’t mean there can’t be some inconsistency when it comes to arguments made about the series with the series itself.

It isn't inconsistent to say that they sail over 250 km/h. Not in the slightest.
I noted prior the scenarios where the ship has canonically moved over 250 km/h to prove a point that "Oda can allow ships to be as fast as he wants them to be", but instead you guys focused on the 1 relativistic statement and smeared that through pages.

I would say it is a little inconsistent for them to be sailing, on average, speeds of way over 250kmph, though this isn’t a main point that I am focusing much on. There are anti-feats to their sailing speed as well. I also barely focused on the relativistic thing.

The Going Merry was able to swim up 7000 meters of water in 1 exact minute in a spiral formation prior to the usage of its wings. In a straight line, this would be 116.666666667 m/s, or 420 kilometers per hour, which only increases substantially when you consider they went in a spiral around it, in contrast to the ridiculous 4 meters per second figure that Damage found.

1. It was stated in here that the Knock up Stream was the only reason as to why it moved that fast. That is incorrect.

I don’t understand at all how this instance supports them sailing on average well over 250kmph through the grand line. You also say that it is incorrect that the knock up stream was the only reason as to why they move that fast, which is… confusing? The only reason they were moving upwards at all was due to the knock up stream, the entirety of their velocity came from it and things that it caused. You provide further reasoning as to why you think this:

They already moved that speed, they just couldn't vertically move upwards. We know this because they were going to fall off by falling backwards, which anyone who's ever ran through a train before can tell you, if you move too much slower than the thing accelerating you, you fall backwards. When they fully harnessed the environment, they could fly up the stream and in the air.

How does this mean that they already moved that speed? I think your argument is that since they were able to maintain enough speed to stay on the knock up stream, that means that they must move at that same speed while sailing elsewhere, but the thing that let them maintain enough speed to not fall off was the initial velocity given by the knock up stream as well as the blast of hot air produced by the steam and explosion of the knock up stream itself. They would not experience this same initial thrust of velocity or blast of hot air given to them by the knock up stream just sailing normally horizontally.

My point regarding covering the 10,000 km distance of the Sandora River in 9 hours. This is over 1000 km/h for the Going Merry ship.

This is a point already acknowledged, but this seems like more of an outlier due to the inconsistency and anti-feats, I mean, this is almost mach speeds.

The ability of Viola allows her to see 4,000 km away. Her vision noted the Straw Hats entering her 4,000 km range the previous night, and they arrived through the Thousand Sunny within the day. 4,000 km. Assuming 12 hours for the timeframe to arrive, since she spotted them in the middle of the night and they got to her in the morning (far before their 3pm meeting time on the connected island), this would be 333 km/h. Again, faster than the figure you gave.

This is a point already addressed. We do not know that the straw hats only entered Viola’s vision at the time Gladius says she was acting strange. Not only is Viola’s senrigan not always actively perceiving everything in her range or using the ability, but the time that Gladius gave for her acting strange would also be around the same time that Doflamingo returned to Dressrosa and urged his crewmates to search for the strawhats. Your evidence that Viola does actively perceive everything within her vision was that she was able to see Nami’s bolt of lightning on the sunny, even though in the top panel we see that she was actively looking at the sunny and it was in her field of view.

It was Damage that tried to minimize their speed by saying "if they could travel a km in a second". A kilometer in a second is 3600 km/h, far above the speeds both me and the OP gave. This is in reference to the coup de burst which shoots the ship into the air a kilometer away. Distance doesn't matter, speed does, and the speed of this ship is ridiculous.

This is Damage’s point, so I won’t try too hard to back up this one, but this gives a good example of something I talked about above. If, for example, the assumption was made that the going merry at some point was traveling 7200 km/h sailing, despite the fact that, yes, Oda can make the boats as fast as he wants them to be, wouldn’t you still consider that a little inconsistent? Inconsistency can still arise within assumptions made about a fictional series an author has complete control over. Casting aside these inconsistencies because they do not fit your point of view on the story by simply saying “the author can make it how they want” ignores this.

Then on top of that, you attempted to tackle the moon.
You've pulled what I like to call "delete and deter". You see things that are shaky and you try to delete every single potential way of calculating it until/unless you find something reasonable, which means... reasonable to you, then after every possible way of calculating it is removed, you say "oh, it can't be calcable, too bad".

This is a strawman, and I was never intending to make the one piece planet uncalcable.

Edit: Since this response me and KT have actually discussed possible re-calcs for Blue Planet

I know this cause you removed the planet and moon size and you didn't even give an alternative. You expect us to go and pick up the bits and pieces of YOUR WORK.

This is the same grievance you have brought up in the previous big one piece size downgrade thread. Which was addressed by multiple people within it.

What would happen to the profiles next would be covered by a follow-up CRT; it's not the sole burden of the person pointing out the flaws to have to come up with a complete replacement. And it wouldn't be the worst thing if a few calcs ended up being removed from the scaling or the profiles. There are still other calcs, other feats and other scaling.

A new calculation isn't necessary to justify the removal of another calculation. This thread's topic is the removal of the flawed calculation. When that has been established then we can look into the possibility of a new calc.

The same thing applies here. Not only is it not necessary to provide an alternative to the calculation, but I was waiting until all of the debating was done on the current one to even focus on that. There are people actively suggesting re-calcs in this thread, though you aren’t very fond of them.

This thread had someone make a thread trying to minimize large planets strictly cause One Piece has a large planet when we have light novels on this wiki that have mountain ranges the size of solar systems. This thread has given random ridiculous scrutiny based on "big planet" from a select few people evaluating it, and it's unfair and just dumb.

I do not know of any verses you could be referring to, but the beauty of this forum is, you could make a thread at any time scrutinizing those verses size scaling. Your paragraph right above acknowledges this fact. This little excerpt at the end, and frankly your entire last section was not needed, and doesn’t accomplish anything productive.

 

[EtherealCrater]

Bump

 

[KingTempest]

We need staff to evaluate the prior message

 

[EtherealCrater]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

On holiday currently. Will return to thread in a few days.

 

[Kachon123]

Bump

 

[EtherealCrater]

Bump

 

[Stefano4444]

Has anyone evalutare the counter-arguments?

 

[Kachon123]

Bump.

 

[Kachon123]

At what point do grace rules apply?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

What's the current calc member vote so far?

 

[Kachon123]

What's the current calc member vote so far?

Agree: Damage3245

Neutral: M3X_2.0

Disagree: Floxy178, Dalesan027

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Well, Floxy and Dalesan haven't read Billybobs reply to KT, right?

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Well, Floxy and Dalesan haven't read Billybobs reply to KT, right?

Damage hasn’t either. He mentioned he was going to return to the thread

 

[Kachon123]

Well, Floxy and Dalesan haven't read Billybobs reply to KT, right?

That's what I'm asking. It's been nearly 3 weeks and nobody (other than damage) has said anything. Afaik, both Dale and Floxy follow the thread. If they haven't made a comment on Billy's reply then we should probably just assume their opinions haven't been changed.

 

[Damage3245]

Got back from my holiday yesterday, I'll make some time to check out that post when I can.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

That's what I'm asking. It's been nearly 3 weeks and nobody (other than damage) has said anything. Afaik, both Dale and Floxy follow the thread. If they haven't made a comment on Billy's reply then we should probably just assume their opinions haven't been changed.

I know Floxy is currently in the middle of exams, though im not really sure about dale.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

That's what I'm asking. It's been nearly 3 weeks and nobody (other than damage) has said anything. Afaik, both Dale and Floxy follow the thread. If they haven't made a comment on Billy's reply then we should probably just assume their opinions haven't been changed.

Floxy talked to me offsite and said he’ll try to come back to the thread by the end of the month, and that he’s busy. According to KT, Dalesan is also currently busy.

 

[EtherealCrater]

Straight up Bumping it and by "it" lets just say...the thread
(Plz we need more staff)

 

[EtherealCrater]

Bump

 

[Kachon123]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

I've read BillyBobJoe's last post responding to KingTempest's argument. Ultimately I think BillyBobJoe still makes the most sense, especially regarding the ship speed examples. I dont think it makes sense to explain away the travel speed issues of the world being the size that it has been pixelscaled to be as just "Oda can make the ship's travel any speed he wants." The ship's more often than not do not travel the speed required for the Straw Hat's journey time to make sense given all the information we know about how long it took them to get through the world.

But for this to go anywhere, we need more than just me commenting on it. I'd appreciate if @Floxy178 and @Dalesean027 could give BillyBobJoe's post on this current page a read-through when they get the chance.

 

[EtherealCrater]

I dont think it makes sense to explain away the travel speed issues of the world being the size that it has been pixelscaled to be as just "Oda can make the ship's travel any speed he wants." The ship's more often than not do not travel the speed required for the Straw Hat's journey time to make sense given all the information we know about how long it took them to get through the world.

87050428.571429/2.572 = 33,845,423.23928033 seconds = 391.72 Days

It would take the Strawhats over an entire year just to reach the next island from Alabasta yet this timeframe is not supported anywhere.

Even the fastest sail ship speeds wouldn't yield a timeframe anywhere near realistic enough.

It is entirely clear that the ship's speed is far beyond any normal sail ship is capable of and does not debunk such a large world.

 

[Saqphire]

It is entirely clear that the ship's speed is far beyond any normal sail ship is capable of and does not debunk such a large world.

I don't think that's the necessary conclusion. There's also the interpretation where we would be having a case of an overinflated calc from one panel here since it clearly doesn't match average sailboat speed and the Going Merry is not a subsonic ship. Oda was never clear about ship speed being faster than normal ships (and I don't consider the submarine feat as an actual speed feat, that's like comparing Finn's shimmying speed to a random laser)

Having said that, have we ever considered the fact that the panel dwarfing Alabasta may simply be an outlier compared to the rest of the portrayals of the Grand Line? Cause honestly, that's like the only thing supporting the river being that big, every other portrayal such as the maps and the globes do not show Alabasta being nearly that small compared to it.

 

[Floxy178]

One of the main reasons why I disagreed with thread was about Calm Belt being different from rest of the ocean but the scans presented by BillyBobJoe say otherwise. In that case I'd like to know if @KingTempest has something to say about it, otherwise I think scaling Grand Line from Alabasta in that panel when we can't know if Calm Belt would be distinguishable is unreliable.

 

[EtherealCrater]

One of the main reasons why I disagreed with thread was about Calm Belt being different from rest of the ocean but the scans presented by BillyBobJoe say otherwise. In that case I'd like to know if @KingTempest has something to say about it, otherwise I think scaling Grand Line from Alabasta in that panel when we can't know if Calm Belt would be distinguishable is unreliable.

When presented on maps and in person, there's a shift in hue that indicates whether they are in the Grand Line or Calm Belt. This is also supported by the anime. If you wanted to argue there's only a shift in hue because of the storms, The Calm Belt doesn't have storms.

 

[Saqphire]

When presented on maps and in person, there's a shift in hue that indicates whether they are in the Grand Line or Calm Belt. This is also supported by the anime. If you wanted to argue there's only a shift in hue because of the storms, The Calm Belt doesn't have storms.

The hue shift is only shown in diagrams or visuals for information in the manga. Billy is talking about the actual sea here. Also, the anime isn't canon but even if it is, there's nothing in the Alabasta scan that shows it being exclusively in wavey water

 

[Arceus0x]

Hey so gonna throw this in real quick but is everyone sure that the whole Alabasta river being 50km wide is not a mistranslation?

 

[Saqphire]

Hey so gonna throw this in real quick but is everyone sure that the whole Alabasta river being 50km wide is not a mistranslation?

100% sure

 

[KingTempest]

I'm sorry

Initially I was just gonna let staff evaluate the points, but I just read a lot of the counterarguments and it seems like I need to directly respond to a chunk of them cause a bunch of them are just objectively wrong

 

[M3X_2.0]

I was asked to comment once more but I don't want to. My main concerns are not related to what the series has, or what makes it stupid big, that's whatever and I don't care. My concerns were this:

Just to make it clear: I don’t read One Piece, and I don’t plan to do so. So I won’t tackle anything from the arguments here, but I want to talk about something else.

Since when did we normalize a Earth-like planet being over 1.5 million kilometers in diameter? The gravity would be 1154 m/s^2, a 80kg human would weight 94 tons. The atmospheric pressure would be equal to 11.920 kPa, any human would’ve been crushed. Liquid water wouldn’t be possible, the escape velocity would be 121.5 km/s trapping every heavy gas and making the atmospheric composition completely different from what we see. The Moon being inhabited and visitable makes zero sense at this scale, the gravitational dominance of the planet would push any stable natural satellite way further out than what’s portrayed. The Red Line existing as a stable solid geological formation is impossible too, because the internal pressure at the core would be around 5 billion GPa, meaning the interior would be fluid or degenerate matter, not solid rock.

On top of all that, a planet this size wouldn’t even be a rocky planet to begin with. At 1.5 million kilometers in diameter, larger than the Sun itself, gravitational accretion during formation would inevitably capture massive amounts of hydrogen and helium, making it a gas giant at minimum.

Depending on total mass, it could even cross the threshold into brown dwarf or stellar territory. This planet being this big is simply not physically coherent at any level.

And it’s not even like the planet being this big comes from canon sources like the manga or Oda himself, it comes from a third party calculation that doesn’t take into consideration any of the physical implications I listed above. If the calc itself produces a result that directly contradicts observable in-universe reality at every level, that’s a good reason to question the calc, not to accept the contradictions as valid.

But apparently, the wiki doesn't care if a planet is bigger than our sun, cause "it's fiction", so there is no reason for me to argue about it either. So I have no issues anymore.

I'm disagreeing with the thread btw.

 

[KingTempest]

Alabasta is an extremely large island, and this is by the in universe standards of one piece as well

You have detailed this yourself in one of your previous responses. So it would not be ridiculous to say that Alabasta would be visible in comparison to the Grand Line itself.

So why is there never a scan of where it is?

Using these scans to establish some sort of consistency of Alabasta not even being visible in comparison to the grand line makes absolutely no sense. These scans don’t even have consistency between what island ARE actually shown. And two of the scans you provide are just for the purpose of explaining the Grand and Red Line, that do not show any islands or landmarks, and wouldn’t make sense to show any other islands or landmarks, as they are just explaining the Grand Line and Red line. Using scans that do not even have consistency between themselves in terms of islands in order to establish consistency with islands shown is not a reliable method.

If there is a landmark so big as to where it is in the middle of an ocean and it would take up the entirety of said ocean, it would be noticeable on literally any map.

Oda can show the reverse mountain paths he can show alabasta if it's that big.

I address this below, but it does not take days to reach the next island in the path of the grand line

More than 5 days to get from Drum Island to Alabasta.
More than 3 days to get from Skypiea to Water 7.
Several days to get from the Florian Triangle to the Red line where the next island is Fishman Island.
No.

That is not true. The calm belt contains texture numerous times throughout the manga. Even from a top-down view. The texturing seen in that scene is simply the texturing oda does in general on all of the water, when it gets further away from the screen. You can see this same texturing all throughout the calm belt. Hell, you can even see it in your own scan you provide further down. Notice as how you go further upwards, and further backwards from the POV, the water automatically defaults to the same texturing? This same default texturing is also used for islands all throughout the Grand Line as well. I can show even more examples of this too.

It can have texture.

You cannot prove that it has the same texture'd waves as the ones around Alabasta.

I clearly show the difference in texture between the calm belt sea and the grand line ones with either the anime or the manga especially when they first enter it.
This point is moot.

This is an anime only scene. The anime adaptation is not considered canon to be able to consider its integration into, or priority over, the original timeline as per our canonicity standards. This would include anime exclusive scenes such as this.

The Calm Belt does have waves. As I explain further down

Canonically, it has no wind.
If it has no wind, it has no natural waves, as wind is caused by waves.
Again.

The drawn out water motion shown close up is just the small waves made from the countless sea kings moving and jiving around in the immediate waters. For dozens of km worth of waves to appear, you would need one ****** sea king, while 5km sea kings barely make a single km wave.

Your entire point was that it's a 200x200 km^2 per pixel. The biggest sea kings barely make 1. So unless you think the waves right next to alabasta's coast are the same as the ones in the calm belt, this point is wrong.

Even appealing to the anime only differences, the “texture” shown here does not at all contradict with what we are shown exclusively in the anime with the scan you previously provided. Comparing them side-by side does not really reveal any contradictions between texture or appearance of the water of the Calm Belt and the water we see around Alabasta. Or at least anything that would match the Grand Line any more.

See how one of them violently changes color?
That says it all.

Your example of the water of the Calm Belt actually includes texture ironically. The argument that the waves we see in the calm belt are only due to the movement of sea kings is also inconsistent. There are multiple times where we see waves in the calm belt without the presence of sea kings. And just a few panels after the example you give of the Calm Belt having no waves, at least 10 separate sea kings appear. So the mere existence of sea kings under the surface likely are not what are causing the waves in most of these panels, especially considering we do not see sea kings at all in the vicinity. To assume that almost every one of these instances of waves and detailing is caused by seakings that are simply offscreen, at least I think, is a pretty ridiculous assumption. And again, in scan of the calm belt one you can also see that as the water gets further from the screen, the water defaults to the same detailing that oda uses on any water that is far away. And regarding that very same scan, there are instances where the Grand Line has less waves than that

You do know that... sea kings move... underwater right?
They don't need to be on the surface at all.

I don’t see why the sea kings would need to manipulate hundreds of thousands of kms of water for it to be indiscernible. The texturing we see is the exact same texturing we see Oda use on any water that is further away from the camera. And I don’t even know that it’s impossible for them to manipulate that much water. Sea kings are over 5km long and some are much longer. And there are hundreds of them. Shirahoshi is considered an ancient weapon with the “power to destroy the world” just for being able to control them. The power to control sea kings is put into the same category as something that was able to wipe an entire island off the map and raise the global sea level by one meter in a single use. That category being as one of the three ancient weapons. These are the same ancient weapons that in the past raised the global sea level by 200 meters. And if we were to take the assumption that what we see is not the basic texturing Oda does on all of his water, and in fact pronounced waves that are actually this big, these things would easily qualify as tsunamis, which can travel tens of thousands of kilometers, and likely much further within the One Piece verse. You yourself are even open to the idea of residual waves from the Grand Line.

Your entire point was that it's a 200x200 km2 per pixel image.
Canonically it has no wind.
You're arguing with oda at this point.
If it has no wind it has no natural waves.
So what could cause thousands of kilometers worth of waves in a place with no wind?

I find it hard to believe that this is meant to be the sandora river. It doesn’t match the shape at all, nor does it connect to the bottom of Alabasta. It seems much more likely it is supposed to be basic detailing, or just mountain ranges.

This is just dishonest
It doesn't go straight down because the river is so thin in the grand scheme of things that that 1 portion in where its seen is just the most oda could show.
Same as wide rivers irl that aren't shown on the continents of the earth.

A few problems with this. First, we do not know Alabasta is the island to come after drum island in its route. We don’t even know if they skipped any islands on their way to Drum Island, since they didn’t wait the one year necessary for their log pose to set from little garden, instead they just ignored their log pose and eternal pose and sailed aimlessly for three days until encountering an island. We know this because on their first day on Drum Island, Kureha states that Nami was infected 3 days ago from Little Garden, which they also spent far less than a day on. For extra context for anyone else reading this, a log pose is a type of compass used to navigate one of the paths on the Grand Line. Once you reach an island in the Grand Line, the log pose must take a certain amount of time to set, after which it will begin to point towards the next island within the path. An eternal pose is a compass that eternally points to a single Island. At the point in the story at which the strawhats travel to Alabasta, they are in possession of an eternal pose to Alabasta. The strawhats very likely used their eternal pose to travel to Alabasta as well. Earlier in this thread you claimed that Alabasta was simply the next island, so the strawhats just didn’t need to follow the eternal pose at all, but where did you get this from? I don’t think it’s ever stated that Alabasta is the island to come next after Drum Island. Why would the strawhats even follow their log pose instead of the eternal pose out of Drum Island? Never are they given the information that Alabasta is apparently the next island their log pose would point to from Drum Island, so they would have no reason to prioritize navigating with the log pose over the eternal pose especially when they have no time to waste. Along with the fact that we know there are Islands much closer to Alabasta that are possible to navigate to Alabasta from, such as Nanimonai. Also, since you like to use anime-only scenes, here is an anime-only scene showing that they did in fact use the eternal pose to travel to Alabasta. This whole argument is a little weird coming from you in the first place considering one of your main arguments is this.

Alabasta is the 4th island on their route.
It is 2 or 3 islands after the first island so it's the 3rd or 4th.
If it's 2-3 islands after the 1st, it's 1-2 islands after the 2nd.
If they need an eternal pose to get to the next island in the path they would've just said so, but instead they used their log pose and it connected to drum island instead of alabasta.
We know that drum island is the third because they used the log pose to get to drum island after nami was sick and they rerouted.
So alabasta is the 4th.

This whole point is rendered null above. But something else I want to address regarding this scan is that, we see that there are actually 15 islands within the middle path of the Grand Line, and I shouldn’t need to say that the strawhats did not travel through 15 Islands using their log pose before reaching the Red Line, only about two-thirds of that number. So this would mean that they would’ve had to skip a few islands on their journey through Paradise.

This... does not matter?
Nobody said that the map is accurately used to showcase the exact amount of islands they went past.

Due to my points above, we would not actually know how many islands are behind Alabasta. As well as it being incredibly likely there actually IS an island included in that zoom out, due to the existence of the island Nanimonai, which is considered to be close to Alabasta, so close in fact that just an eternal pose to there is considered enough to get to Alabasta. Either it’s just that close, or it is the island before Alabasta within it’s path, allowing travel to Alabasta directly from it. It’s existence would mean either Drum Island isn’t the island before Alabasta in it’s path, or that there is very likely an island that is present within the zoomed out panel.

This was proven wrong above.

This point I conceded on in discord, but that does not stop some of the points here from being faulty. Using the statement “center of the world” doesn’t provide any backing to this argument. Like I’ve already said. There is no center of the surface of a globe. The “center of the world” in reference to Mary Geoise is obviously in reference to what it represents, the center of the world government. The highlighted path argument isn’t very good either. It was a visualization of how the paths work as crocus explained them. They hadn’t even chosen a path at the time of the panel.

There is a center of the surface of the globe.
It's called where the prime meridian and the equator meet.
Null Island.

It's called the center of the world because it's literally located in the center of the damn planet.
On the map of the planet, the north blue is above it, the south is below, the east is to the right, the west is to the left.
At its center is mary geoise.

So you do recall your statement of Oda allowing ships to be as fast as he wants them to be. Oda allowing his ships to be as fast as he wants to be is something I never disagreed on. This same thing applies to everything within One Piece. Oda can make anything in One Piece exactly as he wants it to be, but this doesn’t mean there can’t be some inconsistency when it comes to arguments made about the series with the series itself.

I would say it is a little inconsistent for them to be sailing, on average, speeds of way over 250kmph, though this isn’t a main point that I am focusing much on. There are anti-feats to their sailing speed as well. I also barely focused on the relativistic thing.

You can't say it isn't a main point you're focusing on when it's the main thing dismantling the speed argument.

You guys are giving one piece ships the same standards as irl ships.
Then when we bring up how canonically they supercede these speeds you say "well it's inconsistent"

it's not inconsistent. You're just wrong and you don't agree.
Damage says a ship moves 4 meters a second and we see it weaving cannonfire then it's clearly not that damn slow.
You guys have never gotten a single lick of proof that it moves as slow as you claim. All you do is tackle the faster speeds and say they aren't as much as the slower speeds when the slower speeds are pushing mach speeds.

Yall sat there in the corner and laughed at the submarine dodging lasers to ignore the other points of the ships moving almost at the speed of sound. The whole point is that they range from fast to FAST AS HELL, and it doesn't matter what speed you use, they're all faster than the irl standards.

Look at the sunny in seconds to minutes covering hundreds of meters of distance.
It has a length of 39 meters.
for it to go 4 meters a second it would take 10 seconds for it to cover its own length.
It does that distance in less than a second.

Your Op says "no way it goes over 250kmph".
I send you multiple scans of it consistently moving over 250 kmph.
You say each and every one is inconsistent based on literally nothing at all.

I don’t understand at all how this instance supports them sailing on average well over 250kmph through the grand line. You also say that it is incorrect that the knock up stream was the only reason as to why they move that fast, which is… confusing? The only reason they were moving upwards at all was due to the knock up stream, the entirety of their velocity came from it and things that it caused. You provide further reasoning as to why you think this:

How does this mean that they already moved that speed? I think your argument is that since they were able to maintain enough speed to stay on the knock up stream, that means that they must move at that same speed while sailing elsewhere, but the thing that let them maintain enough speed to not fall off was the initial velocity given by the knock up stream as well as the blast of hot air produced by the steam and explosion of the knock up stream itself. They would not experience this same initial thrust of velocity or blast of hot air given to them by the knock up stream just sailing normally horizontally.

Moving in a certain direction ≠ moving faster due to what made them move in that direction.
They were able to perfectly navigate it.
On top of that i already brought up their several other feats of moving at this speed in other locations on the same ship.

This is a point already acknowledged, but this seems like more of an outlier due to the inconsistency and anti-feats, I mean, this is almost mach speeds.

That's nice.
There are no antifeats.
They move very fast.

This is a point already addressed. We do not know that the straw hats only entered Viola’s vision at the time Gladius says she was acting strange. Not only is Viola’s senrigan not always actively perceiving everything in her range or using the ability, but the time that Gladius gave for her acting strange would also be around the same time that Doflamingo returned to Dressrosa and urged his crewmates to search for the strawhats. Your evidence that Viola does actively perceive everything within her vision was that she was able to see Nami’s bolt of lightning on the sunny, even though in the top panel we see that she was actively looking at the sunny and it was in her field of view.

If punk hazard was in her range, she would have no problem finding the straw hats.
She had a problem.

In the top panel she was not looking at the sunny.
Literally the immediate page before she was looking at the soldiers inside of dressrosa. She just recognized the thunderbolt that happened in the middle of the ocean.
I did not say that she's always actively perceiving everything, i said that when her ability is on she sees everything.

This is Damage’s point, so I won’t try too hard to back up this one, but this gives a good example of something I talked about above. If, for example, the assumption was made that the going merry at some point was traveling 7200 km/h sailing, despite the fact that, yes, Oda can make the boats as fast as he wants them to be, wouldn’t you still consider that a little inconsistent? Inconsistency can still arise within assumptions made about a fictional series an author has complete control over. Casting aside these inconsistencies because they do not fit your point of view on the story by simply saying “the author can make it how they want” ignores this.

What is your whole point?

That they aren't consistently that fast?
Okay whatever.
They aren't consistently 2 meters per second either.

You can't even find a panel in where they move that slow.
In every panel they have of movement they move faster than the figure Damage gave.

This is a strawman, and I was never intending to make the one piece planet uncalcable.

You are nuking the literal only way to measure the size of the planet.

There is nothing else used to measure the size of the planet whatsoever because we've been trying for years and we've deduced this is the only way especially after the others were all declined.

You might not intend to make it uncalcable but if you stop selling wood to people who require firewood then you effectively stop them from using a fireplace. There are no other methods.

I've read BillyBobJoe's last post responding to KingTempest's argument. Ultimately I think BillyBobJoe still makes the most sense, especially regarding the ship speed examples. I dont think it makes sense to explain away the travel speed issues of the world being the size that it has been pixelscaled to be as just "Oda can make the ship's travel any speed he wants." The ship's more often than not do not travel the speed required for the Straw Hat's journey time to make sense given all the information we know about how long it took them to get through the world.

He said nothing says the ships moved over 250 kmph.
I send multiple showings of the ships moving over 250 kmph in regular travel.
You guys look at the multiple showings and say "no".

What are we doing

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Give me a few hours

 

[Saqphire]

Just throwing this out there but doesn't One Piece operate on a 24-hour cycle? If the planet was this big, then it would spin at around 61810 m/s or Massively Hypersonic speeds.

This means these scenes wouldn't happen because the bullets wouldn't even be flying as fast as the planet's rotation, meaning the Corsiolis Effect would just throw the shots off by kilometres unless the bullets were also 618610 m/s

 

[Arceus0x]

meaning the Corsiolis Effect would just throw the shots off by kilometres unless the bullets were also 618610 m/s

 

[DaReaperMan]

Just throwing this out there but doesn't One Piece operate on a 24-hour cycle? If the planet was this big, then it would spin at around 61810 m/s or Massively Hypersonic speeds.

This means these scenes wouldn't happen because the bullets wouldn't even be flying as fast as the planet's rotation, meaning the Corsiolis Effect would just throw the shots off by kilometres unless the bullets were also 618610 m/s

Dude, gonna just point out that this is a pretty big appeal to reality fallacy.

 

[SlendVeny]

Just throwing this out there but doesn't One Piece operate on a 24-hour cycle? If the planet was this big, then it would spin at around 61810 m/s or Massively Hypersonic speeds.

This means these scenes wouldn't happen because the bullets wouldn't even be flying as fast as the planet's rotation, meaning the Corsiolis Effect would just throw the shots off by kilometres unless the bullets were also 618610 m/s

I mean, that's Van Augur, his bullets are threatening hits on FTL dudes.