OPM additions + scaling revision

[Kachon123]

Yeah but heat transfers over time. Tapping a ball of heat for a millisecond at MHS+ speeds is not going to do anything because the contact is too short to actually transfer any heat.

It's like how you can quickly dip your fingers in boiling hot water without even really feeling it but if you left them there for a whole second or 2 you'd probably have pretty painful burns.

By that logic Rover's heat blasts would never be a threat to anyone worth their own since they're all operating at MHS speeds. The temperature of Rover's heat blast was very clearly a threat regardless of Bang's speed.

Tf no it doesn't lol. If he was negating it he wouldn't be affected by it at all. The fact that he's affected by their effects to any degree proves there's no PN happening and he's really just redirecting it.

The shockwaves that the Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist have special pulverizing properties that not all shockwaves have, as normally they behave like they would IRL (as seen in his clash against Garou's Exploding Heart Release Fist). If Bang was at all affected by the effects of the Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist's shockwaves, he would have been defeated instantly. Instead, he was able to prolong the fight and land a dual exchange because the Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist.

 

[DavidTPPM]

By that logic Rover's heat blasts would never be a threat to anyone worth their own since they're all operating at MHS speeds. The temperature of Rover's heat blast was very clearly a threat regardless of Bang's speed.

That's not true tho? If the attack hits them directly then they're gonna be in contact with it for MUCH longer than if Bang just taps away. Again imagine quickly dipping your hand in boiling hot water VS getting boiling hot water thrown in your face. One would leave you unharmed while the other would leave you with severe burns.

This isn't just "my logic" this is how heat works in general. The fact that heat transfers over time is something you learn in elementary school.

The shockwaves that the Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist have special pulverizing properties that not all shockwaves have, as normally they behave like they would IRL (as seen in his clash against Garou's Exploding Heart Release Fist). If Bang was at all affected by the effects of the Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist's shockwaves, he would have been defeated instantly. Instead, he was able to prolong the fight and land a dual exchange because the Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist.

Yeah but he wasn't hit by them, instead he redirected the attacks. And yet he was harmed by it.

You're basically saying Bang nullified an attack that literally hurt him without actually hitting him. That's not evidence of PN it's the most direct counter evidence that he doesn't nullify anything and just directs the attacks away from himself.

 

[MrTayman616]

That's not true tho? If the attack hits them directly then they're gonna be in contact with it for MUCH longer than if Bang just taps away. Again imagine quickly dipping your hand in boiling hot water VS getting boiling hot water thrown in your face. One would leave you unharmed while the other would leave you with severe burns.

This happened before, the first time they clashed with Rover, the very first attack. They holded it for seconds iirc

 

[Kachon123]

That's not true tho? If the attack hits them directly then they're gonna be in contact with it for MUCH longer than if Bang just taps away. Again imagine quickly dipping your hand in boiling hot water VS getting boiling hot water thrown in your face. One would leave you unharmed while the other would leave you with severe burns.

This isn't just "my logic" this is how heat works in general. The fact that heat transfers over time is something you learn in elementary school.

Read MrTayman's reply.

Yeah but he wasn't hit by them, instead he redirected the attacks. And yet he was harmed by it.

You're basically saying Bang nullified an attack that literally hurt him without actually hitting him. That's not evidence of PN it's the most direct counter evidence that he doesn't nullify anything and just directs the attacks away from himself.

What? If Bang was getting hurt by shockwaves that should be pulverizing him but instead does standard damage then that is PN. He is literally nullifying the main property of the entire Martial Art.

Bang himself was in a frontal clash with Garou's RASRF. This has happened before in the past and we can see that with the way Bang was fighting, if any normal person tried that against RASF they would get pulverized due to making direct physical contact with it. Bang didn't. Because he nullified the pulverizing effects.

 

[DavidTPPM]

This happened before, the first time they clashed with Rover, the very first attack. They holded it for seconds iirc

Can you show me a scan? Because then Bang just straight up gets heat resistance unless there's a statement about him somehow magically nullifying the heat of Rovers attacks.

What? If Bang was getting hurt by shockwaves that should be pulverizing him but instead does standard damage then that is PN. He is literally nullifying the main property of the entire Martial Art.

They would pulverize him if they hit him directly. But he redirected them and they STILL did damage. If they were PNd they wouldn't do damage even if they hit him but instead they did damage even without hitting him.

Bang himself was in a frontal clash with Garou's RASRF. This has happened before in the past and we can see that with the way Bang was fighting, if any normal person tried that against RASF they would get pulverized due to making direct physical contact with it. Bang didn't. Because he nullified the pulverizing effects.

Dude again this scan you're showing proves bang isn't directly touching and negating attacks but hitting the arm from the side to redirect them.

I think it's crazy that we're actually discussing whether attacks that hurt Bang without even actually hitting him were power nulled lmao. If they were power nulled they wouldn't have the pulverization effect anymore. Since they did they were not power nulled.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree that Bang isn't using Power Nullification with his martial arts. Deflecting attacks is not nullifying them.

 

[MrTayman616]

I agree that Bang isn't using Power Nullification with his martial arts. Deflecting attacks is not nullifying them.

He can deflect heat based attacks, water, lighting style etc etc iirc.

Even if not powernull, he's not affected by them while deflecting those.

 

[Damage3245]

He can deflect heat based attacks, water, lighting style etc etc iirc.

Even if not powernull, he's not affected by them while deflecting those.

That'd be Non-Physical Interaction for some of those, but not nullification.

 

[Kachon123]

Dude again this scan you're showing proves bang isn't directly touching and negating attacks but hitting the arm from the side to redirect them.

The impact is on Garou's hand, not his arm.

I think it's crazy that we're actually discussing whether attacks that hurt Bang without even actually hitting him were power nulled lmao. If they were power nulled they wouldn't have the pulverization effect anymore. Since they did they were not power nulled.

Except they didn't otherwise Bang would have been instantly taken out. Garou only just barely grazed Bang's chest, not even getting a direct hit and it took him out for the rest of the arc. If you seriously don't think that Bang having a frontal clash with Garou, making physical contact with RASRF, and not getting pulverized is not him nullifying its special properties then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[MrTayman616]

Can you show me a scan? Because then Bang just straight up gets heat resistance unless there's a statement about him somehow magically nullifying the heat of Rovers attacks.

They weren't harmed, while it's stated those are enough to kill/damage them badly.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Bang kicking something and that thing moving really isn't water manipulation lol.

???
Assuming you don't know what I'm talking about, here it is:

Also

Overpowering weaker telekinesis with stronger telekinesis is not TK resistance at all same way using water manipulation to overpower weaker water manipulation isn't resistance to water manip.

But she isn't overpowering anything. She's simply standing still while her barrier protects her.

No, telekinesis doesn't inherently have any durability negation. Tatsumaki surviving TK just means her durability was high enough.

Well in OPM it does.

If Tatsumaki resisted telekinesis she could have literally just stood still and Psykos wouldn't have been able to affect her at all. This is like trying to give someone resistance to punches because they tanked one. Or like saying someone has mind manipulation resistance because they survived mind manipulation despite it successfully working on them.

You're not getting the point. Pyskos states that no barrier=instant death, meaning that this isn't a case of durability, but rather, the barrier having SOME negating aspects to keep Tatsumaki from instantly dying. Tatsumaki is more durable than her barrier, yet would've died without it. As for her taking damage, like I said, it should be limited. Even just the fact that she was unaffected by Apollo, shows resistance, as TK bypasses durability in OPM

Yeah but we don't have to prove something isn't true if there's no evidence proving it's right.

Like if I said Saitama became 9-C at the end of the last chapter you wouldn't have to prove me wrong to say he didn't.

That's not how scaling works. We cant just assume that a character has stayed the same for 3 years. If there's no evidence to say whether they stayed the same or not, the default is to not scale them that way. We had this situation with Blast and how strong he was when he fought Void 15 years ago.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Pretty sure that in the first drawing of the Ninja Arc we agreed that Tatsumaki will not scale to FF's speed –even as a possibly– regardless if she did match Sonic who matched FF, because Sonic could've grown a lot in that short period of time

Now imagine Tatsumaki in the whole years that passed since Saitama's event

Not to mention that she has potrayed better feats now against a way stronger Saitama, as pointed by me on the previous page

 

[DavidTPPM]

The impact is on Garou's hand, not his arm.

That just clearly isn't true

Except they didn't otherwise Bang would have been instantly taken out.

Except they did otherwise Bang wouldn't have been harmed after redirecting them. Of course he didn't get fully taken out when he didn't even get hit, but the fact he still got harmed is undeniable evidence the attack didn't get nullified.

Garou only just barely grazed Bang's chest, not even getting a direct hit and it took him out for the rest of the arc. If you seriously don't think that Bang having a frontal clash with Garou, making physical contact with RASRF, and not getting pulverized is not him nullifying its special properties then I don't know what to tell you.

I don’t think that, I know that. Because like you have proven yourself, the attacks still retained their ability after getting redirected. It's literally a core aspect of Bangs redirection as he often uses it to purposely make people hit things they don't want to. Rovers heat beams still explode, Uglys punch still hurts Gums, and Garous attacks still hurt Bang. We have overwhelming evidence Bang doesn't PN anything and essentially 0 actual evidence that he does other than vague headcanons.

They weren't harmed, while it's stated those are enough to kill/damage them badly.

It also directly shows us Fubuki protecting them and trying to stop the beam with telekinesis. Meaning they're just protected by TK, not actually interacting with it.
And even a thin invisible layer of water is enough to protect regular humans from heat to the point they can touch molten metal so I'm pretty sure a telekinetic barrier is quite helpful.

???
Assuming you don't know what I'm talking about, here it is:

Yeah that out of context just looks like Bang stepped in water and it splashed on him lol.

But she isn't overpowering anything. She's simply standing still while her barrier protects her.

Yes and she's very much being affected by the telekinesis, just tanking it's force.

Well in OPM it does.

No it's not. Telekinesis in OPM is still very much just moving stuff with your mind and creating energy constructs.

You're not getting the point. Pyskos states that no barrier=instant death, meaning that this isn't a case of durability, but rather, the barrier having SOME negating aspects to keep Tatsumaki from instantly dying.

Or Psykos just thinks she's strong enough to kill Tatsumaki in one hit. This doesn't imply any sort of durability negation at all, and Tatsumaki clearly does get damaged and affected by telekinesis so she doesn't resist it.

Let me put it very simply. Did Tatsumaki get affected by the TK? Yes? Then she doesn't resist it any more than you resist martial arts by tanking a punch.

Tatsumaki is more durable than her barrier, yet would've died without it. As for her taking damage, like I said, it should be limited. Even just the fact that she was unaffected by Apollo, shows resistance, as TK bypasses durability in OPM

No it just means she's stronger. I'm not visibly affected by air or wind resistance when I walk, does that give me resistance to wind manipulation?

That's not how scaling works. We cant just assume that a character has stayed the same for 3 years. If there's no evidence to say whether they stayed the same or not, the default is to not scale them that way.

Yes that is exactly how scaling works. If we have no evidence her power changed then we can't claim it did.

If we have no reason to believe she got stronger then we can't say it did.

We had this situation with Blast and how strong he was when he fought Void 15 years ago.

No we didn't. The situations are completely different because Blast has BLATANT anti feats 15 years ago compared to now which is why we can say he got stronger. Does Tatsumaki have anything of that sort? Idk about you but I don't know about any.

Pretty sure that in the first drawing of the Ninja Arc we agreed that Tatsumaki will not scale to FF's speed –even as a possibly– regardless if she did match Sonic who matched FF, because Sonic could've grown a lot in that short period of time

Now imagine Tatsumaki in the whole years that passed since Saitama's event

Except that's a massive false equivalence.
Tatsumaki was canonically stated to be weaker than Geryuganshoop because unlike him she can't move objects at near-light speeds. Meaning she canonically caps at like sub-relativistic to relativistic.

And Sonic is actively trying to get more powerful after Saitama defeated him which would suggest he's training.

So when have the question that either Sonic and Flashy are actually slower than we think or Sonic got faster, we naturally go towards Sonic getting faster.

 

[MrTayman616]

It also directly shows us Fubuki protecting them and trying to stop the beam with telekinesis. Meaning they're just protected by TK, not actually interacting with it.
And even a thin invisible layer of water is enough to protect regular humans from heat to the point they can touch molten metal so I'm pretty sure a telekinetic barrier is quite helpful.

They weren't protected by Fubuki there, She was trying to stop the attack. Also this is what happens to Fubuki when she protects them against it.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Except that's a massive false equivalence.
Tatsumaki was canonically stated to be weaker than Geryuganshoop because unlike him she can't move objects at near-light speeds. Meaning she canonically caps at like sub-relativistic to relativistic.

False. She can move objects at said speeds, but she can't ignore the friction said speed generates like Gery does. Reason why she has possibly Rel+ attack speed rn

And Sonic is actively trying to get more powerful after Saitama defeated him which would suggest he's training.

So when have the question that either Sonic and Flashy are actually slower than we think or Sonic got faster, we naturally go towards Sonic getting faster.

That was just an example, man. The argument is not only "well, she could've gotten stronger" (which already is important enough on its own tbh), but that the actual Tatsumaki could cause way more effect on a way stronger Saitama (lift him, twitch his muscles while holding back, push him back with TK) than to a way weaker, still with hair Saitama (she only could twist his clothes. The only ""damage"" she did was that Saitama's hair got stuck on his clothes while they were being twisted. I.e., no physical damage was directly caused by the psychic powers to Saitama).

Saying in-training Saitama scales to that Tatsumaki is incoherent, as that'd imply that a way weaker casual Saitama could no-sell easierly an attack than a way stronger casual Saitama could

 

[MrTayman616]

False. She can move objects at said speeds, but she can't ignore the friction said speed generates like Gery does. Reason why she has possibly Rel+ attack speed rn

Maybe she learned how to do it later

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Silver Fang
and Limited Damage Boost (Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist can redirect attacks with twice the force)

Garo should also get this since the scan is already on his profile; he just doesn't have limited damage boost, for some reason.

Tatsumaki Scaling Revision
Tatsumaki's AP justification is outdated, as it doesn't include anything after The MA arc. Her new scaling should be something like this:


Remove During-Training Saitama's Scaling from Tatsumaki
His scaling is as follows:

This scaling should be removed, as it assumes that Tatsumaki's strength has remained static over the years, ignoring any potential growth or development she may have undergone. Considering that she was unable to affect him with her telekinesis back then, but was able to slightly lift him off the ground during the Psychic Sisters arc, suggests that she's gotten stronger.

Isn't there a statement about her training somewhere? That would help support the argument that she has gotten stronger over time.

 

[FinePoint]

Silver Fang
Attack Reflection, Power Nullification and Limited Damage Boost (Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist nullifies attacks,[1] and is capable of deflecting a redirection of the opponent's strikes. It can also redirect attacks with twice the force) We have multiple statements that the WSRSF nullifies attacks, and we've seen Bang use it to nullify Rover's heat bombs and Gaou's Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist.

I'm fine with Attack Reflection, but I'm not sure Power Nullification is accurate to our definition.
As for Limited Damage Boost, sure, whatever.

Energy Manipulation (Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist takes knowledge of the flow of energy behind raging currents and tidal surges and recreates these within one's body, putting this into your fists)

I feel it's more like Elemental Manipulation, or more accurately, Water Manipulation, which includes mimicking its properties.

Superhuman Precision (Can pierce the smallest vital points with unmatched accuracy[1])

Seems obvious.

Aura & Fear Manipulation (Has an aura that can make even Tatsumaki flinch[1])

I'm not sure if we also give Fear Manipulation if it's only via their aura, or if we just put Aura and specify it's fear-related.

Regardless, I think this is valid fear aura.

Extrasensory Perception (Sensed a foreign evil inside Awakened Garou. Knew that Bomb's fist had no killing intent. Superior to Smile Man, who is able to sense he presence of others)

Seems sensible.

Weapon Mastery (Caught and snapped a blade with chopsticks while eating)

Mastery over chopsticks?

I feel like this is just a reaction/precision feat.

Unconventional Telepathy (Can communicate by transferring his thoughts through his fists. Only those with enough talent can hear it)

Telepathy requires it to be at range. He has to physically punch them, so I don't think it qualifies.
What it does qualify as, I have no idea. Probably just another skill/precision feat.

Accelerated Development (Claimed that he gets stronger while fighting)

Seems legit.

Afterimage Creation (Created afterimages while fighting Garou)

Yerp.

Social Influencing (Reputation; Is respected by his pairs, and acknowledged as one of greatest Martial Artists in the world)

Sure.

Resistance to Radiation Manipulation (Through sheer willpower, he survived exposure to Garou's radiation longer than anyone not fully resistant to it, despite being the closest) He should also get OPM's supernatural willpower since he lasted longer than even those with it.

I think this is more a willpower feat than a radiation resistance feat. Everyone was rapidly getting sick, he was just standing longer despite that.
I'm not sure we have enough evidence of it being supernatural, though. I would need more.

Saitama
Regeneration (Low; Regenerated from the scratches of Octopus Claw Man, which left King with permanent scars)

Sure.

Social Influencing (Influenced Genos into becoming his disciple. Motivated insecure individuals like Fubuki and Glasses to face their challenges and become better heroes. Convinced Tatsumaki to allow the the Blizzard Group to continue operating. Though initially unwilling, Tatsumaki went through with a hero recruitment commercial after recalling his words.

Sure, he does have a strange charm to him. Not sure which type exactly. Part of it is simply that he's seen as so strong, another is that he seems to know exactly what to say to inspire people.

Immense Pain Tolerance (Endured extreme pain from his intense training regimen, to the point that it nearly killed him. Unfazed by the injuries he suffered from Octopus Claw Man. Withstood strikes from monsters like Crablante and Personification Of A Light Pull Cord)

This is sort of a stamina/willpower feat.

Limited Attack Reflection with his head (Saitama’s head reflects light-based attacks, thanks to its baldness) There should be a note that says: His baldness makes his head so slippery that it resists sticky and gooey substances, as seen here.

Silly, but valid.

Fear Manipulation (Completely scared Carnage Kabuto. Frightened Garou with his aura)

I disagree. In both of these cases, they were only scared because of their own enhanced perception.

Genos
Limited Durability Negation (By melting his opponent’s insides)

Yerp.

Immortality (Type 2; Can keep fighting even with his body cut in half or limbs torn off)

This is a hot topic right now, so I'll just stay neutral on this until that's resolved.

Aura (His Lightning Drill Cannon engulfs him in a dragon-shaped electric aura)

I don't really see this as an aura.

Shockwave Creation (Blew away a swarm of mosquitos that surrounded him)

We don't have this ability.

Data Manipulation & Memory Manipulation (His core is capable of recording events, and the stored memories can be extracted for later use or review)

Limited, but I guess.

Martial Arts Master (Able to contend with a martial arts genius like Garou in hand to hand combat)

Sure.

Statistics Amplification (with boosters) Further with 10s mode

Probably.

Afterimage Creation (Created afterimages with Machine Gun Blow)

And one other time, I believe?
Regardless, seems good.

Danmaku & Homing Attack (Can fire multiple homing energy beams from his arms at once)

I don't know about Danmaku, but definitely Homing Attack.

All 3 should have resistance to Fear Manipulation, since they were unaffected by Garou's aura, which made everyone else besides Blast scared.

Sure.

Tatsumaki
Social Influencing (Reputation and Instilling Fear; As the Class Rank 2 hero, she is respected by the public and has many fans around the world. Monsters fear her due to her overwhelming power and brutality on the battlefield)

Sure.

Underground Mobility (Can travel underground)

True.

Stealth Mastery (Invaded Psykos' body unnoticed by camouflaging herself as energy that Psykos was absorbing through her roots)

Nah. We've seen nothing really stealthy about her outside of this. Just give her Camouflage.

Immense Pain Tolerance (Shrugged off severe exhaustion, blood loss and injuries to continue fighting. Despite having been knocked unconscious, she woke up moments later and immediately began fighting waves of Black Sperms while still in a critical condition)

Can probably just be mentioned in stamina.

Limited Light Manipulation (Illuminated a giant spear with her green aura) I've seen profiles give light manipulation for having light based aura, so this should be fine

Sure.

Weather Manipulation (Can create thunderstorms)

Sure.

resistance to Illusion Creation (Saw through God's illusion)

I'd argue the illusion still worked on her fine, she just wasn't swayed by it.

resistance to Limited Psychokinesis (Had her own psychic output turned against her, yet wasn't instantly crushed due to her barrier. Her barriers usually negate psychokinesis from weaker espers)

Isn't this just Forcefield Creation?

Upscaling Tatsumaki
Tatsumaki should get upscaled from mach 7278(Massively Hypersonic+) to mach 8740.3(Sub-Relativistic), which is a 1.2x increase. She effortlessly dodged all of Psykorochi's attacks while holding back significantly—so much so that she believed she could possibly have killed Saitama(who was no selling all of her attacks) with just a touch increased output, even after using power on par with what she used to overpower Psykorochi. During the fight, she kept increasing her output until she reached full power, to which she started pushing past her limits and moved him a little. Her Psychic output affects her speed. So, Full powered Tatsumaki>>>Touch increased Tatsumaki>>>The Tatsumaki who effortlessly dodged Psykorochi's beams>Psykorochi's beams(mach 7278).

This is probably fine.

In this thread, we were going to upscale her to moon level due to her layers of holding back. The only reason we didn't, was because the upscale would've been a 1.6x increase, which exceeded the wiki's 1.5x limit for upscaling(and even then, we were still considering it due to how far above Psykos Tatsumaki is). So considering that psychic output affects speed, a 1.2x upscale should be fine.

Indeed.

10s mode Genos(with boosters) should probably be upscaled as well, since he was able to intercept a more powerful beam just right before it reached Tatsumaki, and fired a beam of his own.

I don't know, it seems like he mostly just deflected it.

Tatsumaki Scaling Revision
Tatsumaki's AP justification is outdated, as it doesn't include anything after The MA arc. Her new scaling should be something like this:

I don't have any obvious issues with it.

Remove During-Training Saitama's Scaling from Tatsumaki
His scaling is as follows:

This scaling should be removed, as it assumes that Tatsumaki's strength has remained static over the years, ignoring any potential growth or development she may have undergone. Considering that she was unable to affect him with her telekinesis back then, but was able to slightly lift him off the ground during the Psychic Sisters arc, suggests that she's gotten stronger.

Well he should still scale to however strong she was then, so if we have other feats from the same time period we can probably use them.

He definitely shouldn't scale to her current power, though, I agree with you.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Thank you for commenting

I feel it's more like Elemental Manipulation, or more accurately, Water Manipulation, which includes mimicking its properties.

I don't think so. The text explains that Bang's martial art involves understanding and recreating "the flows of torrential and undulating forces" within his body and directing them through his fists. This describes the manipulation of an internal force or energy. He's not manipulating literal water.

Telepathy requires it to be at range. He has to physically punch them, so I don't think it qualifies.
What it does qualify as, I have no idea. Probably just another skill/precision feat.

What about sound manipulation. I was contemplating between the two.

I disagree. In both of these cases, they were only scared because of their own enhanced perception.

In the case with Garou, he mentioned that he felt a pressure coming from Saitama. That's not fear though perception, but rather fear through supernatural means. In the case with Kabuto, its not so clear as to why he's scared, but it's likely for the same reason. As Kachon showed, there're other instances of this

Saitama's aura and pressure were mentioned in both of the links the OP provided. How could this be fear through authority or power?

Here are some additional instances

I don't really see this as an aura.

Why not? Aura is described as the ability to have energy envelop the user.

We don't have this ability.

Fixed it

I don't know about Danmaku, but definitely Homing Attack.

I forgot to update it. The justification should look like this:

Danmaku (Genos has access to more than two dozen individual guns across his body, which he can combine for larger, more powerful Incineration Cannon blasts, or to fire multiple energy beams from his arms at once)
Homing Attack (His beams are capable of homing onto their target)

I'd argue the illusion still worked on her fine, she just wasn't swayed by it.

Yeah, but we give resistance for breaking out of abilities. Like Child Emperor got resistance for breaking out a spiritual realm and Garou got resistance for breaking out of Psykos' telekinesis

Isn't this just Forcefield Creation?

Kinda. In OPM telekinesis doesn't travel and can bypass structures or durability. So her barrier protecting her from telekinesis, suggest some form of resistance or negation. Probably limited power null

I don't know, it seems like he mostly just deflected it.

I know he deflected it. I'm proposing we upscale his speed(with his boosters) by 1.2x for intercepting the beam, which is a superior beam to the one we're upscaling from. We also know his boosters give him blitz tier amps

 

[FinePoint]

Thank you for commenting

I don't think so. The text explains that Bang's martial art involves understanding and recreating "the flows of torrential and undulating forces" within his body and directing them through his fists. This describes the manipulation of an internal force or energy. He's not manipulating literal water.

Well, I suppose. Maybe I'm just being overly biased by the theming.
It's probably fine then.

What about sound manipulation. I was contemplating between the two.

Well I think the idea is that he's punching him in a specific way such that it conveys a message. If this is through like, morse code, or literal distorted speech, or just vibes- I don't know, and it's not made clear.

In the case with Garou, he mentioned that he felt a pressure coming from Saitama. That's not fear though perception, but rather fear through supernatural means. In the case with Kabuto, its not so clear as to why he's scared, but it's likely for the same reason. As Kachon showed, there're other instances of this

Well you'd think it'd affect almost everyone then, but it seems to only affect people who are also very powerful and/or have enhanced perception, leading me to believe it's just an observation of his strength.

Why not? Aura is described as the ability to have energy envelop the user.

It just doesn't feel like it's "enveloping" them to me. Feels more like... on the side.

Fixed it

Seems fine.

I forgot to update it. The justification should look like this:

Two dozen guns is probably enough.

Yeah, but we give resistance for breaking out of abilities. Like Child Emperor got resistance for breaking out a spiritual realm and Garou got resistance for breaking out of Psykos' telekinesis

Well it doesn't seem like she broke out, rather that God gave up as soon as he realized she wasn't buying it.

Kinda. In OPM telekinesis doesn't travel and can bypass structures or durability. So her barrier protecting her from telekinesis, suggest some form of resistance or negation. Probably limited power null

I suppose it would be limited power null then, specifically negating durability negation. (Negation²).
Or they also increase her general durability.

I know he deflected it. I'm proposing we upscale his speed(with his boosters) by 1.2x for intercepting the beam, which is a superior beam to the one we're upscaling from. We also know his boosters give him blitz tier amps

Ah, that's fine then. I thought you were scaling his AP.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Well you'd think it'd affect almost everyone then, but it seems to only affect people who are also very powerful and/or have enhanced perception, leading me to believe it's just an observation of his strength.

He's causing the pressure when he's angry or pissed off. None of them recognized his power like Boros did(Kabuto as well), yet they felt the pressure, making them warry or him. I will take out the Kabuto example since he was able to recognize Saitama's power beforehand. The other examples all underestimated Saitama and got low diffed. They all felt a pressure, which was the only reason they were scared in the first place

 

[DavidTPPM]

They weren't protected by Fubuki there, She was trying to stop the attack.

Yes so the attack should be covered in her telekinesis as she's using it to stop the attack.

Also this is what happens to Fubuki when she protects them against it.

Yes when they get hit without redirecting it.

False. She can move objects at said speeds, but she can't ignore the friction said speed generates like Gery does.

Yeah she can theoretically output that level of speed but her projectiles would instantly burn up due to friction meaning in practice she can't move objects that fast.

That was just an example, man.

Yeah, but it was a bad example which is why I debunked it.

The argument is not only "well, she could've gotten stronger" (which already is important enough on its own tbh), but that the actual Tatsumaki could cause way more effect on a way stronger Saitama (lift him, twitch his muscles while holding back, push him back with TK) than to a way weaker, still with hair Saitama (she only could twist his clothes. The only ""damage"" she did was that Saitama's hair got stuck on his clothes while they were being twisted. I.e., no physical damage was directly caused by the psychic powers to Saitama).

No, I already debunked this. Tatsumaki couldn't overpower past Saitama but she didn't try to overpower current Saitama.
The difference between lifting someone and overpowering them is MASSIVE

I could easily lift the strongest man alive but I sure as hell wouldn't be able to stop him from walking forward no matter how much I tried.

Saying in-training Saitama scales to that Tatsumaki is incoherent, as that'd imply that a way weaker casual Saitama could no-sell easierly an attack than a way stronger casual Saitama could

No it doesn't. It means in-training Saitama can output greater force by walking than bald Saitama does by merely standing still.

And walking inherently REQUIRES higher amount of force because you're actively moving your mass. So it's basically

Weaker Saitama walking > Tatsumaki > bald Saitamas mass

Hell it's actually a massive LS anti-feat for Tats in the present because Saitama canonically only weighs 70-140kg, and doesn't even break the ground under his feet when walking. There's no reason she should have struggled with lifting him up, I could do that myself lmao. So not only does your line of thinking make no sense but it directly down plays Tatsumaki to average human level LS

 

[MrTayman616]

Weaker Saitama walking > Tatsumaki > bald Saitamas mass

Saitama had also stopped moving because his hair was stuck (against Tatsumaki). The result were the same.

So i don't think it's about walking here.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Saitama had also stopped moving because his hair was stuck (against Tatsumaki). The result were the same.

So i don't think it's about walking here.

Dude walking and standing still are night and day. Stopping bald Saitama from walking is like a 4-A feat minimum but lifting and moving him when he's not going against you is a feat that even Mumen rider did lmao.

 

[MrTayman616]

Dude walking and standing still are night and day. Stopping bald Saitama from walking is like a 4-A feat minimum but lifting and moving him when he's not going against you is a feat that even Mumen rider did lmao.

The reasoning for not being able to lift him is fundementally different though, no?

Also i don't even know what the argument is. I was just saying he wasn't just walking :d

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

No it doesn't. It means in-training Saitama can output greater force by walking than bald Saitama does by merely standing still.

In-training Saitama, even when searching which way to stand, could no-sell Tatsumaki's twist with only his clothes being twisted and his hair getting stuck there.

Current Saitama, however, got his muscles twisted too and caused the "bababa" that we saw in the manga.

And walking inherently REQUIRES higher amount of force because you're actively moving your mass. So it's basically

Weaker Saitama walking > Tatsumaki > bald Saitamas mass

Saitama's muscles twitch<Tatsumaki strengthening herself a little bit, trying not to kill Saitama<Tatsumaki pushing Saitama while he was trying to stand still (surprising Saitama)<Full power Tatsumaki barely lifting Saitama

And you are saying… this is less impressive than a Saitama that an in-training Saitama getting completely unaffected by Tatsumaki's psychic power. Only his clothes getting affected

Hell it's actually a massive LS anti-feat for Tats in the present because Saitama canonically only weighs 70-140kg, and doesn't even break the ground under his feet when walking. There's no reason she should have struggled with lifting him up, I could do that myself lmao. So not only does your line of thinking make no sense but it directly down plays Tatsumaki to average human level LS

Why are you making an such absurd point right now? If you have no arguments, I'd prefer you to not answer than making such absurdly wrong statements.

It is explicitely stated that Tatsumaki was using enough force to actually send him to space, and Saitama was, due to his resistance to psychic powers, resisting said force trying to affect him. Tatsumaki already sent Saitama flying with a little of her psychic power concentrated on her finger, while holding back not to kill Saitama. Hell, she literally lifted Saitama with a hand. I'll also point out that psychics are physically comparable to average humans without amping their body with psychic power, in case you try to use that possibility to support that absurd "then Tatsumaki vs Saitama is an anti-feat to Tatsumaki!"

 

[Entity]

I would say, move the scaling revisions to another thread, so that at least the new abilities can be added, since it seems so hard for OPM to evaluate them and even when they're accepted they're not added to the profiles, like the Orochi and Psykorochi revision

 

[DavidTPPM]

In-training Saitama, even when searching which way to stand, could no-sell Tatsumaki's twist with only his clothes being twisted and his hair getting stuck there.

No, he didn't just have his clothes affected he said it FEELS like his clothes are wrapping tightly around him because Tatsumakis telekinesis was wrapped around him.

Actually nah I take it back, let's downgrade past Tatsumaki to T-shirt level

Current Saitama, however, got his muscles twisted too and caused the "bababa" that we saw in the manga.

Muscles twisted?

Hell yeah let's upgrade Tats to 3-C she apparently twisted Saitamas muscles.

Saitama's muscles twitch<Tatsumaki strengthening herself a little bit, trying not to kill Saitama<Tatsumaki pushing Saitama while he was trying to stand still (surprising Saitama)<Full power Tatsumaki barely lifting Saitama

There is literally no connection between lifting Saitama and trying to stop him from moving.

You're trying to compare lifting someone to overpowering them.

And you are saying… this is less impressive than a Saitama that an in-training Saitama getting completely unaffected by Tatsumaki's psychic power.

No, I'm saying there's no way to compare these 2 things because overpowering someone and lifting them are 2 completely different things.

Only his clothes getting affected

Dude please read what you're preaching. I'm getting really annoyed by you blatantly misinterpreting this shit

It’s as if my clothes are pulling itself tightly around me.

Why are you making an such absurd point right now? If you have no arguments, I'd prefer you to not answer than making such absurdly wrong statements.

"absurd point" and it's just a canon fact that you can't debunk.

It is explicitely stated that Tatsumaki was using enough force to actually send him to space, and Saitama was, due to his resistance to psychic powers, resisting said force trying to affect him.

So current Saitama has some sort of resistance to psychic powers and this has nothing to do with power? Sure you just debunked your own core argument.

Tatsumaki already sent Saitama flying with a little of her psychic power concentrated on her finger, while holding back not to kill Saitama.

Yesss so this is either a feat of some telekinesis resistance or an extremely inconsistent outlier. Good job, you really helped my point.

Hell, she literally lifted Saitama with a hand.

More evidence that your core argument is an inconsistent outlier and she can actually lift him

I'll also point out that psychics are physically comparable to average humans without amping their body with psychic power, in case you try to use that possibility to support that absurd "then Tatsumaki vs Saitama is an anti-feat to Tatsumaki!"

So long story short, Saitama probably has some telekinesis resistance that makes this whole fight unusable for comparison, Tatsumakis ability to lift Saitama is extremely inconsistent, and there is still no tie between lifting current Saitama and overpowering past Saitama?

Sure, thanks for debunking the OP

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

No, he didn't just have his clothes affected he said it FEELS like his clothes are wrapping tightly around him because Tatsumakis telekinesis was wrapped around him.

Already answered. Please, read before making points that were already made

Wasn't the whole point that they were in pure darkness? Of course he couldn't affirm it, because he can't  see his clothes being wrapped around him.

Also, if the clothes wrapping around him was just a feeling, nothing literal, he wouldn't state his hair got stuck in it.

"It's so dark I can't see anything".

Previous to electricity going out, btw

Actually nah I take it back, let's downgrade past Tatsumaki to T-shirt level

If you are not going to make serious claims, I think you should leave. We are here to discuss scaling, not for you to make stupid claims that do not help in the discussion

Muscles twisted?

Yeah, she did. Got a problem with that? Tell Murata

Hell yeah let's upgrade Tats to 3-C she apparently twisted Saitamas muscles.

Not related with this thread.

And no, she didn't apparently twist Saitama's muscles. She  objectively did it. I don't know why you keep making it sound something fan-made when it is objectively stated to be the case.

There is literally no connection between lifting Saitama and trying to stop him from moving.

You're trying to compare lifting someone to overpowering them.

No, I'm trying to compare the situation of psychic powers not affecting a far weaker Saitama (as stated countlessly in the audiobook, which you keep ignoring), but affecting a far stronger Saitama with all its previous abilities and resistances enhanced.

No, I'm saying there's no way to compare these 2 things because overpowering someone and lifting them are 2 completely different things.

You can't compare psychic powers affecting someone… with psychic powers not affecting someone? Bruh

Dude please read what you're preaching. I'm getting really annoyed by you blatantly misinterpreting this shit

You are seriously building a whole argument around the word "as if"… but, as I said, it has already been answered.

"absurd point" and it's just a canon fact that you can't debunk.

Yeah, because obviously saying that Tatsumaki has average human lifting strength is "a canon fact that I can't debunk"

So current Saitama has some sort of resistance to psychic powers and this has nothing to do with power? Sure you just debunked your own core argument.

…do you even understand what the point is? I'm asking it seriously.

Pre-Training Saitama had some short of resistance to psychic powers. Actual Saitama has said resistance, or an even more potent one

Yet actual Saitama got affected by something his previous self supposedly (according to you) resisted without getting affected on the very least.

Yesss so this is either a feat of some telekinesis resistance or an extremely inconsistent outlier. Good job, you really helped my point.


More evidence that your core argument is an inconsistent outlier and she can actually lift him

Do you know what resistance to Telekinesis is?

Resisting Telekinesis helps you to resist getting manipulated by said ability. Not by getting punch in the face by an attack amped by psychic powers.

Saitama has not, until that point of the fight (besides the beginning when Tatsumaki twisted his muscles), being directly targeted by Telekinesis powers. Either Tatsumaki used his finger to push him back, sent some kind of shockwave against him to push him back, or directly threw things at him. Which is kinda obvious because the omnipresent Green Aura representing something being manipulated by Tatsumaki isn't present around Saitama's body in none of those instances, unlike the others I mentioned

Consequently, Saitama isn't resisting TK, because TK isn't directly being used on him. But on the enviroment to throw things at him

However, when Tatsumaki directly targeted Saitama's body with his power, Saitama's body resisted it. As pointed out in the very 2 interactions by Tatsumaki

So long story short, Saitama probably has some telekinesis resistance that makes this whole fight unusable for comparison,

So long short, you did not understand what the argument is.

Saitama has telekinesis resistance. Which, tautologically, means he resists telekinesis, not that he powernull any try of usage of Telekinesis on his surroundings

Tatsumakis ability to lift Saitama is extremely inconsistent,

Tatsumaki's ability to lift Saitama is consistent. She just can't. She can't manipulate Saitama's body but slightly with her power

However, she can throw things at him, and push him back with a finger/shockwave, things that do not involve him getting directly targeted by the TK.

Anyway, if you continue answering, please try to avoid making fun of others arguments just because you have no counter against them.

• Yeah, Tatsumaki twisted current Saitama's muscles
• Yeah, Saitama resists telekinesis directly affecting him.
• Yeah, Saitama can't see in the dark. Reason of the "as if" you use to build your whole argument while changing the narrative to whatever fits you
• No. Tatsumaki can't directly affect in-training Saitama with Telekinesis
• No. Tatsumaki not being able to lift current Saitama is not an outlier. It is well-explained in the series, regardless if you want to see it or not
• No. There are no incoherences, it's your inhability to accept other interpretations what creates it

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I just saw this

I would say, move the scaling revisions to another thread, so that at least the new abilities can be added, since it seems so hard for OPM to evaluate them and even when they're accepted they're not added to the profiles, like the Orochi and Psykorochi revision

I don't think moving scaling revisions is necessary, tbh

It's not that they are much more controversial than anything else on this thread. And the two stances are already clear, so unless @DavidTPPM brings something new (preferibly something that does not involve "3-C Tatsumaki" or "Human Level LS Tatsumaki") on his next message, there is not really much more to add

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Ok, for Tornado's scaling stuff, chapter 182 of the manga heavily implies that she does train her psychic abilites, which implies that she has gotten stronger over time.

https://cubari DOT moe/read/gist/OPM/182/25/

https://cubari DOT moe/read/gist/OPM/182/26/

I thought there was some data book entry that outrights states that she trains, but I can't remember where it is.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Bump

 

[FinePoint]

He's causing the pressure when he's angry or pissed off. None of them recognized his power like Boros did(Kabuto as well), yet they felt the pressure, making them warry or him. I will take out the Kabuto example since he was able to recognize Saitama's power beforehand. The other examples all underestimated Saitama and got low diffed. They all felt a pressure, which was the only reason they were scared in the first place

Well I think it's possible to sense someone is "really strong", be surprised about it, but still believe you are ultimately stronger.
This would align with the monsters from the series having immense egos.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Well I think it's possible to sense someone is "really strong", be surprised about it, but still believe you are ultimately stronger.
This would align with the monsters from the series having immense egos.

Sure, but the difference is that they felt a mysterious pressure coming from him, as compared to Boros who sensed his power and did not feel any pressure. So it's not a matter of them being able to sense his power. What would you classify this "mysterious pressure" as on the wiki?

 

[FinePoint]

Sure, but the difference is that they felt a mysterious pressure coming from him, as compared to Boros who sensed his power and did not feel any pressure. So it's not a matter of them being able to sense his power. What would you classify this "mysterious pressure" as on the wiki?

I'd say probably Social Influencing (Fear).

I'm hesitant to give aura because it implies it's supernatural, but contextually I feel like it's just him being intimidating.

But also this kind of fear inducement can be resisted with mere confidence or regular willpower, which is what we see.

 

[Farfetchedx]

I'd say probably Social Influencing (Fear).

I'm hesitant to give aura because it implies it's supernatural, but contextually I feel like it's just him being intimidating.

I don't understand how physically feeling pressure from someone isn't supernatural.

But also this kind of fear inducement can be resisted with mere confidence or regular willpower, which is what we see.

fear manipulation can be resisted through willpower. OPM's willpower allows you to straight up resist hax as well.

 

[Farfetchedx]

For Limited Power Nullification

The proposal is that we give limited power null for the use of Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist(WSRSF) because it nullifies attacks when deflecting/redirecting. Power Null is Nullifying abilities, so if WSRSF nullifies attacks when deflecting, it should be a form of limited power null.

There are statements about the WSRSF being able to nullify attacks; from Tanktop Master and from The Databook

These were the arguments made for WSRSF being able to nullify attacks:
Bang used it to deflect Rover’s extreme heat bombs without getting his hands burned—The counter to this was that Bang simply deflected it by tapping it for a millisecond at high hypersonic speeds, moving so fast that the heat couldn’t transfer in time and burn his hand

Bang used it to deflect The Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist(RASRF), which is a technique that sends shockwaves throughout the body and reduces all the bones to dust upon contact—The counter to this was that Bang never actually touched Garous hand, but instead was deflecting the attacks by touching his arm, like shown in a previous battle(Though he’s also been shown to touch the hand when deflecting).(A misconception I see is that Bang took damage from the RASRF due to this scan, but this scan comes from him talking about the Explosive Heart Release Rist, which was Bang's ultimate technique that pushes the body beyond its limits. Bang never claimed to have taken damage from the RASRF)

Garou gets pierced by golden balls projectiles, leaving him with visible cuts, but can deflect those very same projectiles with the WSRSF and not even get scratched.

Garou, who was affected by hot water, could deflect Showerhead's "unknown chemicals," which included hot water, sulfuric acid & Liquid Glue.

It’s also used to deflect elements like water & lightning without damage

Now, sure there are some counterarguments that could be possible(though I doubt ONE was out here thinking about how fast heat takes to transfer and whatnot), but the arguments for power null can be just as possible

Bang taking damage from the shockwaves of the Explosive Heart Release Fist would simply mean that it resists the WSRSF’s power null, and should be given resistance to limited power null IMO. After all, when a character has statements and feats supporting power nullification, and another character is unaffected by it, we don't see that as a disproval of the power nullification itself—but rather as evidence that the unaffected character has resistance to it.

At least, I believe a possible rating for limited power null should be given.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't understand how physically feeling pressure from someone isn't supernatural.

fear manipulation can be resisted through willpower. OPM's willpower allows you to straight up resist hax as well.

Well if Saitama had a supernatural fear aura, you'd think that a vast majority of people he fights, who are far weaker than him, and probably don't have resistance to it, would feel it.

Instead, we only ever hear of it from other powerful people who likely have enhanced senses and some ability to gauge the fact that he is far stronger than he appears.

 

[MrTayman616]

Well if Saitama had a supernatural fear aura, you'd think that a vast majority of people he fights, who are far weaker than him, and probably don't have resistance to it, would feel it.

Instead, we only ever hear of it from other powerful people who likely have enhanced senses and some ability to gauge the fact that he is far stronger than he appears.

I think top tier skilled characters like Garou would understand the pressure being based on strength rather than being incapable of understanding it.

 

[FinePoint]

I think top tier skilled characters like Garou would understand the pressure being based on strength rather than being incapable of understanding it.

It could also just be their word choice for it.

Pressure can also be defined as: "The use of persuasion, influence, or intimidation to make someone do something."

So I interpret it as: "I can tell this guy is strong, so I feel like he's intimidating me into not fighting him."