Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney Downgrade

[Ugarik]

Let's start with the Lifting Strength.

Currently, all the characters are scaled to this calc which was rejected. Moreover, even if the calc was legit that would be a huge outlier because a 20 lb wooden box was described as "very heavy" by Phoenix himself, while that bust could easily be empty.

Attack Potency and Durability

First of all the profiles require a big clean up due to the overwhelming amount of useless feats and circular scaling. For example, let's look at Phoenix' profile

Attack Potency
Managed to break the Kurain Channeling Room's reinforced door. (calced as 10-A, useless feat).
Can fight other lawyers, (he doesn't fight other lawyers, also circular scaling)
harm himself, (he doesn't harm himself)
and was charged by a tiger (that tiger was stopped by the tamer before it could do anything, useless feat)
Durability:
Survived being charged by a tiger (I already explained that one)
falling from a great height from a burning bridge into a freezing, raging river (this one is legit though there is no way to properly calculate it since he fell in the water, it's going to be much lower compared to falling on a hard surface all the same)
along with being hit by a car, flying in mid air and crashing into a street sign (that one it okay too, but he couldn't have absorbed the entire KE of that car. Using the calc linked and assuming Phoenix weights 70 kg and it is a completely inelastic collision (which is a low-end since he was sent flying) low-end and high-end yield 21038 and 33118 Joules respectively)
was unharmed when a drone lit up a courtroom with missiles (those missiles did absolutely nothing to the courtroom, useless feat)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree to all of this; furthermore, the revisions that surviving great temperatures is impressive compared to getting struck with force on the same energy is also going to be elaborated at some point.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with all of these. Is the speed scaling wanky too or is that legit?

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this

 

[KLOL506]

I agree to all of this; furthermore, the revisions that surviving great temperatures is impressive compared to getting struck with force on the same energy is also going to be elaborated at some point.

Doubt the temperature thing was the main selling point of the feat, it's the falling feat that counts.

But other than that, yeah, OP makes sense.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I agree with OP

 

[Ugarik]

I agree with all of these. Is the speed scaling wanky too or is that legit?

Frankly, it also seems kind of wanky but the feat should still work. I only played the original trilogy so I'm not sure if all the characters can scale to that guy assuming they never fought with him?

 

[Ugarik]

Also I just pointed out the problems with their current profiles. I don't know what their new LS and AP ratings should be

 

[Imaginym]

Let's start with the Lifting Strength.

Currently, all the characters are scaled to this calc which was rejected. Moreover, even if the calc was legit that would be a huge outlier because a 20 lb wooden box was described as "very heavy" by Phoenix himself, while that bust could easily be empty.

Pardon my asking, but source on the 20 lb claim? Phoenix Wright has a lot of localization, & as its original language is Japanese, the original weight would be in metric. It may be worth checking the mass in the original language.
For comparison, 20 lbs is the weight of a 1 year old child, so it's a strangely light amount to call "very heavy".

Similarly, a bust tends to be the head part of a statue, or a sculpture, no? Why can we easily assume it would be empty?

along with being hit by a car, flying in mid air and crashing into a street sign (that one it okay too, but he couldn't have absorbed the entire KE of that car. Using the calc linked and assuming Phoenix weights 70 kg and it is a completely inelastic collision (which is a low-end since he was sent flying) low-end and high-end yield 21038 and 33118 Joules respectively)

Why is 70 kg assumed? I'm unsure of their source, but the AA Wiki lists his height at 176 cm, & from what I'm checked, it'd be closer to 67 to 69 kg. Or going by what statistic Wikipedia has for Japan specifically, 59 kg is also possible.

was unharmed when a drone lit up a courtroom with missiles (those missiles did absolutely nothing to the courtroom, useless feat)

Were any changes or effects of the drones depicted? Phoenix Wright often doesn't even have models (Just icons) for evidence, reuses backgrounds a lot, reuses character animations, reuses camera angles, & other such. IIRC, we don't even see the papers or photos, being held in characters hands.
Point is, stuff not being depicted in PW is the norm, not the exception.

I think there was one time when the Court's damage was shown with art, & that was a major plot point with severe damage. Rubble, roof destroyed, etc. if my memory serves.
So if the drone's damage to the courtroom was of a small scale, or not plot important, I could easily see it not being visually depicted, even if it might be impactful.

Also, even if he wasn't hit, if there were explosions, the splash damage or shockwaves of explosions MAY be notable... but surface area, lol.

Otherwise, I don't think that I currently have anything else to bring up. Sorry for any bother.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Agree with the OP so far.

 

[Ugarik]

Pardon my asking, but source on the 20 lb claim? Phoenix Wright has a lot of localization, & as its original language is Japanese, the original weight would be in metric. It may be worth checking the mass in the original language.
For comparison, 20 lbs is the weight of a 1 year old child, so it's a strangely light amount to call "very heavy".

Similarly, a bust tends to be the head part of a statue, or a sculpture, no? Why can we easily assume it would be empty?

I don't know the original weight of that box. But let's be honest, do you really think its weight was anything close to superhuman in the original version? I also remember the samurai spear from the third case weighted 15 kg. Phoenix also described it as very heavy and in the anime her was struggling to hold it up.

Why is 70 kg assumed? I'm unsure of their source, but the AA Wiki lists his height at 176 cm, & from what I'm checked, it'd be closer to 67 to 69 kg. Or going by what statistic Wikipedia has for Japan specifically, 59 kg is also possible.

Why does it matter. It still very close it would change the result to much. Also less mass will actually descrese the amount of absorbed KE only making the final result lower.

 

[Imaginym]

I don't know the original weight of that box. But let's be honest, do you really think its weight was anything close to superhuman in the original version? I also remember the samurai spear from the third case weighted 15 kg. Phoenix also described it as very heavy and in the anime her was struggling to hold it up.

I doubt it was superhuman. Still. Roughly the weight of a 1 year old feels bizarre to describe as "very heavy". In theory, it might've been 20 kg instead of 20 lbs in the original version.

Why does it matter. It still very close it would change the result to much. Also less mass will actually descrese the amount of absorbed KE only making the final result lower.

I'm not opposed to the final result being lower. & being potentially 11 kg lighter than the calc assumed could be influential, I assume. I bring them up because I was curious if 70 kg was the most accurate mass.

Sorry for any bother.

 

[Oleggator]

Can I see the method of calc if human flew away because of car(just my curiosity)? Also Imaginym have point here about missiles since actions inside of courtroom ussualy not visualized in ace attorney. Although the other points makes good sense whether I want it or not.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Yeah, considering being sent flying by a car is just street, wall for Phoenix's feat seems too much.

 

[Armorchompy]

Missiles seem like the only possibly valid feat rn, and even then they're coming from something that's way smaller than the average thing shooting missiles

 

[Ugarik]

Can I see the method of calc if human flew away because of car(just my curiosity)? Also Imaginym have point here about missiles since actions inside of courtroom ussualy not visualized in ace attorney. Although the other points makes good sense whether I want it or not.

KE of the car - 0.5*(mass of the car + mass of the human)*(mass of the car*speed/(mass of the car + mass of the human)^2

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I agree with the OP so far

 

[Ugarik]

I'm glad that most people agree but I don't know what rating to suggest. Does anybody know other feats making them 9-B? Or are they going to be downgraded to 9-C?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I'm glad that most people agree but I don't know what rating to suggest. Does anybody know other feats making them 9-B? Or are they going to be downgraded to 9-C?

I'm pretty sure getting launched like twenty feet is enough to be at least baseline 9-B

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd argue only one 9-B feat isn't enough for someone who's usually portrayed as a perfectly average or slightly below average dude.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I'm pretty sure getting launched like twenty feet is enough to be at least baseline 9-B

Its actually 30 feet

 

[Armorchompy]

That is also only a durability feat, and didn't it seriously damage him?

 

[Psychomaster35]

He only got his leg strained, but he was otherwise mostly okay. If anything, it is a potential downscale.

 

[Armorchompy]

You can't downscale from a feat, at most you can say it didn't hurt him much. Either way, I still don't see any reason for it not to be an outlier, or scale to AP.

 

[Ugarik]

I also think it shouldn't scale to his, or enyone else's AP. He was knocked out with a fire extinguisher by Wellington but scaling from that "feat" seems a bit weird to me

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@KLOL506 I do realize that, I was just pointing out for why those other examples aren't quite 9-B individually. Falling from great heights or getting hit by a car both seem legit though.

 

[Ugarik]

And what about lifting strength?

 

[Armorchompy]

I also think we should take a look at the speed rating and see if that is wanky

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't see anything wrong with Bambu's calc, but the reacting to drones is not really much of a speed feat. Though, I know the movie version is also wanked; Miles never actually dodged a bullet. And neither did Misty Fey tbh.

 

[Psychomaster35]

While I have yet to play Spirit of Justice, Im pretty sure if we dont see any feats of other characters being able to keep up with Nahyuta, that speed feat would only scale to him and nobody else.

As such, the second best thing to calculate is Phoenix crossing half of a burning bridge in Trials and Tribulations.

 

[Armorchompy]

While I have yet to play Spirit of Justice, Im pretty sure if we dont see any feats of other characters being able to keep up with Nahyuta, that speed feat would only scale to him and nobody else.

That's what I meant, I see nothing wrong with the calc.

 

[Ugarik]

I've noticed a huge problem with Bambu's calc. You see Nahyuta's backwards movement wasn't restricted. In fact he was moving in a circle. And in ourder to avoid a 12 m/s knife you can just move at the same speed backward.

Distance Nahyuta moved is 36.41 cm, that part is correct. But if we knife was 5 cm away from his chest it doesn't mean that the knife only moved 5 cm, Nahyuta WAS moving backwards after all.

So the distance the knife actually moved is 5 cm + (46.36 cm * cos45 deg) = 37.78 cm

V = 12*36.41/37.78 = 11.57 m/s (Peak Human)

 

[Armorchompy]

That's what I meant, I see nothing wrong with the calc.

I stand corrected

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree with everything here

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I mean, is there really even a reason to keep Phoenix's profile? He's a not combat character, just one 9-B feat to downscale from, no combat abilities, no speed feats. At least the anime had some legit feats and abilities. The game has nothing.

 

[Ugarik]

Actually I agree da lunge. I don't really see any reason for this verse to exist in the first place

 

[Armorchompy]

yeah, deleting it does make sense to me, though wright does still have some abilities they're unusable in combat

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm pretty sure courtroom themed verses are in a similar boat to Gambling themed verses. Which Prom defended heavily. But I suppose Ugarik's recalculation of the speed feat makes sense.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Maybe, recreate the anime profile? The anime has way more abilities, plus a concrete 9-B and a concrete super sonic feat.

 

[Armorchompy]

It'd be weird to have an adaptation profile without what's being adapted. I suppose if we can have L or Kaiji Itou, we can have Wright too.