Project Moon: Shooting Colors to the clouds

[DMUA]

Canto 7 gave us this feat, in which Sancho with an EGO and Don Quixote cleared clouds over La Manchaland, confirmed to be a 3 kilometer radius. There's also the fact Don was sustaining the whole place by his own blood, and the Pallid Whale is so big it lands in the Tier 7 range through that alone. Initially I did consider this a little dubious of a jump considering the existence of splitters, but upon talking with it with some of the other supporters over discord it did occur that, while Splitters are currently 8-B likely 8-A because they're weaker than colors and stronger than baseline grade 1s, there's not really a straightforward showing of a Splitter punching down and getting matched, like how HE are currently 9-A likely 8-B for similar reasons. I'd probably opt more for Low 7-B without the + since Splitters do often actually put up a fight to colors, but that can be sorted out in the thread.

And since I procrastinated so long on that, we also got another feat for higher end Fixers, being that Matthias encountered and then eventually dispatched the Human Thunderbolt, despite it's ability to indefinitely hop between bodies at the speed of light. It's a little bit more dubious since we don't see the exact process by which he takes them out, but given his approach to abnormalities in general it seems unlikely he used a particular strategy or binding technique to bypass the speed gap, as opposed to something more straightforward like cornering them in a bad position and punching them. It wouldn't be strictly inconsistent with Vespa failing to do the same, given that the LCE Headquarters are a much more narrow space than the backstreets of L Corp and they couldn't jump in the opposite direction forever (And Vespa was probably weaker back then given that he wasn't a friggin' color with Shin, though he was able to take on Zwei's Section 1 Director, likely a splitter in their own right)

On the other hand, also worth noting is this recalc putting Grade 1s at High 8-C, but that shouldn't really change much. It's just the current feat with a little bit better pixel scaling

 

[OnlyonethatEXIST]

literally need more people to agree this thread

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I was the one who gave you the feat, so yeah, agreed with the upgrades. Also notable that Don Quixote unveiling La Manchaland would have destroyed buildings from three kilometers away if not for P Corp's Singularity

Also, probably need to calculate the Human Thunderbolt feat right? A narrower corridor and eventually running out of bodies to hide into+its obviously faster than Vespa and Mattias, however they can still perceive it hopping from body to body. Perceiving light speed movement essentially; It'd be like turning on a lamp and seeing the light as it moves before it covers the room. I'm guessing it would be relativistic either way, but y'know.

 

[DMUA]

Also, probably need to calculate the Human Thunderbolt feat right? A narrower corridor and eventually running out of bodies to hide into+its obviously faster than Vespa and Mattias, however they can still perceive it hopping from body to body. Perceiving light speed movement essentially; It'd be like turning on a lamp and seeing the light as it moves before it covers the room. I'm guessing it would be relativistic either way, but y'know.

I'm not sure how you would when Matthias actually neutralizing them was off screen (and even if it was on screen, visual novel visuals kinda gut getting a frame of reference for positioning). I'd just rate it as Rel+ for being slower but also clearly able to perceive and eventually tag them

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Fair enough there.

 

[DMUA]

while Splitters are currently 8-B likely 8-A because they're weaker than colors and stronger than baseline grade 1s, there's not really a straightforward showing of a Splitter punching down and getting matched

You know in retrospect Canto 9 itself might also end up muddying these waters because the Sinners are baseline Grade 1s and they've fought the Nursefathers all throughout even besides Dante summoning mirror world variations of them to try to take on the pinky Nursefather

Now in that instance it's obvious that even with the numbers and Dante reviving them they didn't stand a real chance, and someone like the Ring Nursefather likely wasn't giving it his all to make his way past Don+Heath+Sinclair, but it's not impossible that context in Part 3 mixes things up in that regard

 

[Yasuda_144]

You hardly need explicit instances of splitters going up against basic 8-Bs (or High 8-Cs now I guess) when Colors themselves are a far cry from being Satoru Gojo type "can solo entire armies of top of the line fighters" figures.

Aside from the fact that this feat is thousands of times above the next best showing and tens of thousands of times above the third best (both of which are performed by figures who posses mythic levels of strength in the setting), we have stuff like:

1. Vergilius failing to kill a regular Docent of the Ring with repeated direct blows, ultimately needing to unlock Mang in order to have enough power to do so. I shouldn't have to explain why "stamina or something" isn't an adequate response to facetanking hits supposedly damn near a million times above your durability, even if barely.

2. Ordinary members of the Rabbit Team are capable of fighting ALEPH abnormalities and even the likes of Binah and Gebura's Core Suppressions, and even eventually winning through attrition and numbers. The profiles themselves acknowledge as much, and nothing in Lobotomy Corporation implies this to be pure gameplay mechanics that has no lore implications. But, maybe later games soft retconned that, right? Expect they didn't, cause...

3. One of the keypage stories in LoR details an incident in which a Color Fixer snuck aboard a Warp Train's regular passenger cars and subsequently trained everyone there for the 2000 years to a point that they completely massacred the clean-up team that was sent to deal with them. However, the Rabbit Team was deployed against them and managed to subdue them, implicitly including the Color. Keep in mind, the Liu Association's military doctrine of isolating the enemy leader and their captain into a 1v1 is considered unique to them and not basic common sense, which is what it would be if the difference between a regular R Corp solider and a captain was roughly the same as the difference between a normal person and a battleship. So, I don't think it makes any sense to assume that the Captain alone was somehow fully a Color level threat and everyone else did 0.0001% of the work.

4. As you yourself have said, Canto 9 has Dante repeatedly claim that in ideal conditions the Sinners might have had a chance to win against the likes of the Pinky Nursefather, and nothing whatsoever is there to imply they were being delusional. There's roughly a trillion instances in Limbus Company of the Sinners being hopelessly outmatched and having to be rescued, and this is the very first time we hear anything from Dante akin to "well, if we were at 100% too maybe things would've been different".

As for speed, I really don't think a tier that's based on guesswork on top of other guesswork on a "feat" that may or may not have happened offscreen without being mentioned is particularly solid. For all we know, he won by simply reducing all of the bodies near enough him to fine re- to a fine pulp, which also isn't a particularly big brain strat for him to come up with. As for perception, I don't think there's anything to imply that's relativistic as opposed to "people can see light", especially when the whole damn narrative there is that lightspeed is something so absurdly fast that someone like Vespa can't begin to do anything to it. We're not going to go full Hanged Man from Jojo for a verse that's yet to graduate beyond "blocking bullets, but like really easily".

 

[DMUA]

As for speed, I really don't think a tier that's based on guesswork on top of other guesswork on a "feat" that may or may not have happened offscreen without being mentioned is particularly solid. For all we know, he won by simply reducing all of the bodies near enough him to fine re- to a fine pulp, which also isn't a particularly big brain strat for him to come up with.

The LCE facility was absolutely littered with corpses though, If he just chased them down across the entire place I don't think he would have even taken it out by the time he ended up back with Kira. Not to mention how The Human Thunderbolt seemingly enhances whatever it's possessing beyond it's paygrade;

Vespa said. Puffing out smoke in the mist, the Smiling Faces commenced running to us. Their massive smoking pipes double as blunt weapons. It also contains a hidden blade sheathed in the bowl of the pipe, sort of like a swordstick. Ezra faced two of them charging at us. One of them swung a smoking pipe in a large arc, and she struck the bowl of the pipe with her fist. It made a small dent in the pipe, throwing the attacker off balance.

“OWW!!! Detective! My fist hurts sooo bad!”

Whining, she accelerated her other hand with the Allas Workshop gauntlet and struck her fist into the chest. The blow sent the opponent flying into a wall. The other one swung a blade at Ezra’s arm. I let out a purple breath to slow the blade down. Ezra took out a Nester hammer in the meantime and hit the aggressor on the forehead. CLANG. The metallic objects rang as they clashed. The hammer got crumpled from the impact. The mask, on the other hand, is intact. Vespa takes the rest of them on the other side. Yellow traces dance in the air like lightning bugs. Just then, Vespa turned to us and pitched the harpoon he’d been carrying at his waist without hesitation. Woosh— The harpoon tore through the air and hit the left shoulder of the Smiling Face standing before Ezra, making them drop their weapon. Ezra immediately took out her Stigma Workshop blade and stabbed it into her opponent. The Stigma blade makes a sizzling sound in their chest. Paying no attention to that piercing injury, the opponent hit her lower jaw with their knee. Those bizarre gestures. The Smiling Faces are being controlled by something. And the Human Thunderbolt has to be the culprit, judging from the purple electric discharges flowing through their bodies.

So he might have not even been able to one-shot everything he ran into, given the CG straight up shows it was inhabiting an LCA unit

As for perception, I don't think there's anything to imply that's relativistic as opposed to "people can see light", especially when the whole damn narrative there is that lightspeed is something so absurdly fast that someone like Vespa can't begin to do anything to it.

Quoting distortion detective;

A purple humanoid form watches us from afar. Purple certainly is an uppity color.

“Vespa. Does the Human Thunderbolt appear to be frozen in place right now?”

Vespa carefully squinted at it.

“It’s moving.”

It's definitely not that, or he wouldn't be able to distinguish light being there with it actively moving around it's network. And I will remind you of the much worse environment for it, an open field where Vespa has almost no chance to pin it against a wall and actually catch it. It's a lot like what you mention about the severity of the AP gap, just being 7x faster than someone is a total blitz, something impossible to see move while it's in action or process before it's too late. That's not happening, and if they're only half as fast (Which would be impossible to catch if they're able to just run in the opposite direction) that's still .5c, Rel+.

We're not going to go full Hanged Man from Jojo for a verse that's yet to graduate beyond "blocking bullets, but like really easily".

You can't really say it hasn't yet happened when that very thing has in fact happened. And the Mach 287 feat is attached to proselytes, people much much weaker than the Proxies and messengers that Gebura can 1v8, if we've got two instances suggesting they do compare to lightspeed I don't think it's insane that they might compare to lightspeed.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Admittedly, it's been a bit since I've read Distortion Detective, so I don't really remember whether there'd be any other tell for it hopping around than just literally having the reaction time to dodge a beam of light or the like. And as for the Matthias thing, like I said, we'd be basing a massive upgrade on something that may or may not have happened offscreen based on little more than "eh, what else could've happened?" I can see it warranting a "possibly", I guess, but definitely not a solid rating.

 

[DMUA]

And as for the Matthias thing, like I said, we'd be basing a massive upgrade on something that may or may not have happened offscreen based on little more than "eh, what else could've happened?" I can see it warranting a "possibly", I guess, but definitely not a solid rating.

I suppose I never mentioned it but it being a possibly rating was on my mind, yeah.

 

[DMUA]

I haven't gotten all the way through, but a few things

I really, really don't think the Dihui Star is a good argument for Grade 1s to be comparable to splitters. We already saw in Part 2 that there was something... Off about the way she fights, given one of her skills just allows you to plummet her attack power and she only moves in bursts, otherwise remaining seated and waiting for incoming attacks, and Part 3 confirms that she can just randomly lose all sense of reality mid fight, resulting in her sheathing her sword until shes comes back, not to mention Yoshihide being related to her "decay". All in all it's clear that despite not having a straight up offense level downgrade like we're used to, she's certainly quite depowered

On top of that, Valencia at the very same level has her fight revolve around making sure Vergilius does the bulk of the work while you use evades, E.G.O.s and whatever else to make sure you last until Superthermogenesis does its work. That's kinda just how it goes when we're dealing with clash power deficit of 5, because these guys are 3 levels away from being as big of an issue as friggin Ricardo was back in Canto 4, while also having relics, Shin and Mang and all kinds of other stuff up their sleeve (including Disposal???? No idea if that's a name coincidence or Valencia being a former R Corp captain, probably the former but it certainly induced great fear in me)

That said I think I'll need to make a whole new thread pertaining to the distortion detective characters once I finish, since Ezra also gets really wild showings (and somehow Moses was level 87, but given that status giving her ?? Attack and defense up and the fact she never actively clashes I feel that's game mechanics or something strange going on with her E.G.O., which we know can hit way above her weight based on mental imagery)

 

[Voidnether]

About time the verse is above Tier 8, but yeah SoL is probably fine imo

 

[Yasuda_144]

I haven't gotten all the way through, but a few things

Gonna wait for you to finish Canto 9 since there's relevant stuff for the discussion at hand well after the Valencia fight. I do agree that the Dihui Star was sandbagging, but it'd be a huge stretch to say all of them were, and the way that the fights are structured strongly implies that the Sinners can at the very least react and not get unconditionally one shotted by their attacks. Cutscenes between rounds even show their injured sprites, which would be weird if every single hit they take kills them and forces Dante to rewind the clock, which would reset them back to perfect condition. Obviously, they're leagues away from being truly comparable, but they're also probably not orders of magnitude weaker either, since at that level there's really nothing they could do to survive.

If it's people who downscale a bunch from 1 kiloton vs people who upscale from 6.5 tons, that's a lot easier to reconcile compared to 1 megaton, which also goes for all the other instances of baseline Grade 1 level people not being ants to most top tiers.

 

[DMUA]

If it's people who downscale a bunch from 1 kiloton vs people who upscale from 6.5 tons, that's a lot easier to reconcile compared to 1 megaton, which also goes for all the other instances of baseline Grade 1 level people not being ants to most top tiers.

Well, you could say the same about baseline Grade 1s and grades 8-3, but we still have a split over a 100x gap, .04 Tons to 6 Tons. Or... Just this at face value is kinda wacky, being 500 times more powerful is fine but 500,000 isn't? Either way that's absolutely big enough to fit a normal person and blowing apart an entire human body.

The fact is that, as with anything in fiction, it's a bit hard to reconcile the fact that someone isn't getting totally gored despite clearly not scaling to whoever's pummeling them and said person having a feat so far beyond their range. Which does actually remind me that I did sort of get the original intent of splitters wrong when I proposed what I did in the OP; less saying that they downscale from 8-A and might be 8-B and more that it's unclear whether they're 8-B or 8-A from their showings, and that doesn't mean that the likes of Sancho, Lei Heng or most of the Nursefathers I was thinking of wouldn't just scale as things are. Granted that was back when it was a 10x gap, but I'd figure it bears mention while it's in discussion

 

[Yasuda_144]

Not "500 times" so much as "vaguely but significantly less than 150 times", although you're right, it'd be kinda wacky either way. As for the original intent of the splitters, I don't think that's actually the case, just from looking at the scaling aid and the fact that someone like Librarian Binah is a splitter and not just an 8-A. Basically all of them have explicit scaling to 8-As on their profiles too.

Either way, if the cloud splitting calc gets accepted we're gonna have to axe basically all of the Rabbits' higher end scaling as gameplay mechanics, which seems kind of iffy when there's nothing about them fighting ALEPHs that's fundamentally different from them fighting WAWs. Either that, or come up with some cope about their Damage Type knives and bullets being a million times more powerful than the equipment they normally have.

 

[DMUA]

Either way, if the cloud splitting calc gets accepted we're gonna have to axe basically all of the Rabbits' higher end scaling as gameplay mechanics, which seems kind of iffy when there's nothing about them fighting ALEPHs that's fundamentally different from them fighting WAWs. Either that, or come up with some cope about their Damage Type knives and bullets being a million times more powerful than the equipment they normally have.

Honestly given Canto 9 also showed off what Abnos are like without Qippoth Deterence, it might just be the wackiness of them being depowered throughout Lobcorp. We've known that for awhile but it's only recently that it's become evident that means something, what with Faelantern being a genuine threat to current sinners, albeit mostly because their gimmick got remixed

That said, I finished, I am now irreconcilably emotional, the thing following up on Valencia's fight is wild but I don't think it changes much since the Sinner pages aren't a thing and probably never will be with how convoluted that might get thanks to the ID system

 

[DMUA]

Right, now that I'm recovered enough to only start crying when I think about 9-49 for too long; I don't think anything beyond the initial proposal has changed with Part 3, so it goes

• Color Fixers get upgraded to Low 7-B+ and get a possibly Rel+ rating, people like Lei Heng or Sancho get Low 7-B without the +
• Grade 1s go to High 8-C from the recalc, splitters probably just stay High 8-C likely Low 7-B until something better is figured out (If we ever do, maybe Project Moon blesses us with more feats)

And that's it as far as I remember, we need two staff approvals and since Wok has abdicated we've only got Crimson, so I'll call @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me after taking time to read the thread.

 

[DMUA]

Made the edits, I'll make a follow up thread about the DD characters soonish, probably going to take the extra effort to add to their ability sections given they also have plenty new stuff in that regard too

 

[MusicRelaxing]

That said, I finished, I am now irreconcilably emotional, the thing following up on Valencia's fight is wild but I don't think it changes much since the Sinner pages aren't a thing and probably never will be with how convoluted that might get thanks to the ID system

How would you go about adapting them? I always saw them as extensions to their abilities and having differing mechanics, like a ****** up version of Mario's power ups and items on how it's listed, but they're all canon and usable for the respective sinners, I don't think it impacts the respective sinners' scaling since you can go with the interpretation of IDs being "limited" by the capacity of the sinner, as described in Dante's notes about uptying. Where their "combat prowess and knowledge aren't immediately transferred to the sinner", meaning that their individual strength wouldn't be adapted, it is moreso just a hax buff.

 

[DMUA]

How would you go about adapting them? I always saw them as extensions to their abilities and having differing mechanics, like a ****** up version of Mario's power ups and items on how it's listed, but they're all canon and usable for the respective sinners, I don't think it impacts the respective sinners' scaling since you can go with the interpretation of IDs being "limited" by the capacity of the sinner, as described in Dante's notes about uptying.

Yeah the main issue is that's so many abilities, and you'll want to divide them appropriately by, if not faction (because there is no way on earth that's working), probably status archetype? I dunno, but even if you decided to just clump them all into a tabber for each Canto (or set of since their power does change pretty incrementally) it's just a lot.

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Yeah the main issue is that's so many abilities, and you'll want to divide them appropriately by, if not faction (because there is no way on earth that's working), probably status archetype? I dunno, but even if you decided to just clump them all into a tabber for each Canto (or set of since their power does change pretty incrementally) it's just a lot.

I'd split them up by damage archetype, with certain IDs having damage types relating to them, with an explaination for each damage type and what they do for their respective sinner. I'd probably split them up like this, really:

 

[MusicRelaxing]

The scaling can be split up pretty simply, since I know every Canto isn't a unholy upscale except for the recent ones, you can just do:
Cantos 1 - 6 | Canto 7 - 9 as an example, like how Kris's is done where its split up.

 

[Onyoury]

1. Vergilius failing to kill a regular Docent of the Ring with repeated direct blows, ultimately needing to unlock Mang in order to have enough power to do so. I shouldn't have to explain why "stamina or something" isn't an adequate response to facetanking hits supposedly damn near a million times above your durability, even if barely.


2. Ordinary members of the Rabbit Team are capable of fighting ALEPH abnormalities and even the likes of Binah and Gebura's Core Suppressions, and even eventually winning through attrition and numbers. The profiles themselves acknowledge as much, and nothing in Lobotomy Corporation implies this to be pure gameplay mechanics that has no lore implications. But, maybe later games soft retconned that, right? Expect they didn't, cause...

3. One of the keypage stories in LoR details an incident in which a Color Fixer snuck aboard a Warp Train's regular passenger cars and subsequently trained everyone there for the 2000 years to a point that they completely massacred the clean-up team that was sent to deal with them. However, the Rabbit Team was deployed against them and managed to subdue them, implicitly including the Color. Keep in mind, the Liu Association's military doctrine of isolating the enemy leader and their captain into a 1v1 is considered unique to them and not basic common sense, which is what it would be if the difference between a regular R Corp solider and a captain was roughly the same as the difference between a normal person and a battleship. So, I don't think it makes any sense to assume that the Captain alone was somehow fully a Color level threat and everyone else did 0.0001% of the work.

4. As you yourself have said, Canto 9 has Dante repeatedly claim that in ideal conditions the Sinners might have had a chance to win against the likes of the Pinky Nursefather, and nothing whatsoever is there to imply they were being delusional. There's roughly a trillion instances in Limbus Company of the Sinners being hopelessly outmatched and having to be rescued, and this is the very first time we hear anything from Dante akin to "well, if we were at 100% too maybe things would've been different".

As for speed, I really don't think a tier that's based on guesswork on top of other guesswork on a "feat" that may or may not have happened offscreen without being mentioned is particularly solid. For all we know, he won by simply reducing all of the bodies near enough him to fine re- to a fine pulp, which also isn't a particularly big brain strat for him to come up with. As for perception, I don't think there's anything to imply that's relativistic as opposed to "people can see light", especially when the whole damn narrative there is that lightspeed is something so absurdly fast that someone like Vespa can't begin to do anything to it. We're not going to go full Hanged Man from Jojo for a verse that's yet to graduate beyond "blocking bullets, but like really easily".

2. The Rabbit Team used bullets provided by Lobotomy Corporation.
3. It's unclear how the color fixer was dealt with.
4.Considering the treatment of color fixers in the city, it's possible they were resolved through negotiation.
Contempt, Awe Ryoshu easily counters bullets fired from all directions faster than regular fell bullets.
I think it's fair to assume the city's advanced guns are more powerful than they actually are.

 

[Yasuda_144]

I think it's fair to assume the city's advanced guns are more powerful than they actually are.

The Head explicitly has a whole bevy of rules and regulations designed to ensure that guns are absolute shit compared to the rest of the setting, including such things as them being unable to penetrate steel or building walls. Only the most elite gun users (ie Sottocapos and other people at that level that use them) would really be exempt, as like five or ten Workshops exist that are allowed to defy those regulations for whatever reason, but ordinary gun users like Full-Stop Office treat their very existence as practically a myth.

 

[Tyranno223]

The Head explicitly has a whole bevy of rules and regulations designed to ensure that guns are absolute shit compared to the rest of the setting, including such things as them being unable to penetrate steel or building walls. Only the most elite gun users (ie Sottocapos and other people at that level that use them) would really be exempt, as like five or ten Workshops exist that are allowed to defy those regulations for whatever reason, but ordinary gun users like Full-Stop Office treat their very existence as practically a myth.

Notably Limbus Company's Walpurgisnacht around the Full Stop Office tells us that, while Guns are not allowed to penetrate walls, they are allowed to demolish or obliterate them.

Hence why rounds like Atelier are so prized. They can still be quite powerful, just specialized for different purposes.

 

[DMUA]

Made the edits, I'll make a follow up thread about the DD characters soonish, probably going to take the extra effort to add to their ability sections given they also have plenty new stuff in that regard too

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