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Rosalina Low 2-C Downgrade or AP Justification Revision

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Warren_Valion

VS Battles
Retired
8,427
3,144
NOTE: I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CHECK ON THIS THREAD CONSTANTLY AND RESPOND TO ENORMOUS POSTS THAT TAKES HOURS TO FORM A REBUTTAL, I JUST CAN'T, AS I HAVE JUST STARTED COLLEGE - I'LL TRY TO GET BACK TO ANY AND EVERY RESPONSE, BUT IT JUST WON'T BE IMMEDIATE. SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE I ALSO WILL BE GOING TO BED SHORTLY AFTER THIS POST

Introduction & Background
Hello.

I am here because I don't believe that Rosalina deserves her Low 2-C rating, and I am here to try and prove that point. Or at the very least, I believe the justification that she has on her profile isn't valid enough to prove that she has a Low 2-C tiering.

My sentiment on this topic was first born from this verses thread. In which I made the argument that Rosalina resetting the universe is a misinterpretation of the events that Rosalina isn't even the one to do it in the first place.

I had forgotten about this topic until a rematch of that thread was made here, and sparked my interest in the topic again, and so I am finally getting this out of my system.

So today, I am going to take you through every comment I have made on the matter in that previous thread and trying to debunk every part of Rosalina's Low 2-C justification in CRT fashion.

Said justification being, "Attack Potency: At least Universe level+ (Effortlessly recreated the universe and capable of warping and creating it. Vastly superior to the power of all of the Grand Stars as well as a Grand Star empowered Bowser)"

Ready? Good.

Lets-a-go!

Rosalina and Universal Reset
Let's tackle the first part of her AP definition, yeah?

The "Effortlessly recreated the universe" part. Well, I don't believe she did it, plain and simple. I first mentioned my disbelief with this ideal here.

The truth of the matter is, she didn't reset the universe.

As shown in the final cutscene, Bowser's Galaxy Reactor malfunctioned due to the Grand Star being removed and because of that, a black hole strong enough to suck up the whole universe was created.


As soon as all hope was seemingly lost, we see that all of the Lumas in Rosalina's care dive straight into the black hole, seemingly stabilizing it, and causing the universe to be properly born anew.

Then we see Rosalina creating a forcefield to shield the damage of the universe being reset, protecting Mario and herself, and while in the forcefield, Rosalina tells Mario about the Circle of Life and how everything came from stars and that old stars that will die will just be reborn again given the proper time - after this speech, she drops Mario onto his new home planet and Mario welcomes the birth of a new universe.

On the thread, I asked what proved that Rosalina reset the universe when the ending cutscene implied otherwise. The real cal howard responded by saying that Prima Guide, the link on the AP justification that I quoted, stated it - and that the feat wasn't vague.

I responded by saying he was wrong by explicitly quoting the whole page in the guide here.

I will copy that post here:

"No, it doesn't - it states that Rosalina had the power to block out the black hole with her forcefields, not that she was the one that reset the universe.


The guide states, and I quote completely:

'Bowser is left behind as Mario and Peach escape. He casts a pathetic shadow against the pulsing materials of his failed reactor. He slowly sinks into the lava, cursing Mario as the reactor finally explodes.'

'Mario and Peach manage to escape Bowser's immediate fate, but the reactor's force is too strong. Fortunately, Rosalina has the power to shield them from the blast that threatens the very fabric of the universe. In Rosalina's calming presence, Mario learns that the universe holds many mysteries about the great cycle of Life: Birth, Death, and Rebirth. Change is the only constant in the cosmos. Bowser tried to bend this force to his will, and in the end, he paid the price.'

'Rosalina sends Mario into a bright light, and the universe displays its awesome power. When Mario awakens, he is lying in a grassy field in the Mushroom Kingdom. A butterfly flits around his face. He opens his eyes to see Princess Peach and all the Toads in the kingdom. The castle is back in its original place. Even Bowser is there, shaken by his narrow escape from his horrible fate. Mario smiles at his friends and casts his eyes to the heavens, welcoming new life into existence. Somewhere, far from the Mushroom Kingdom, a young galaxy with its own stories yet to be told is shining brightly. And maybe, one day, Mario will get to see it.'

There is nothing saying that she herself reset the universe in that scan, and the cutscene shows and implies that it was the Lumas who did it - sacrificing their lives to 'start the universe anew'.

But you are right in one respect, the feat isn't vague - the feat is that, with her forcefields, Rosalina has the power to endure universal destruction rather easily."

So, taking all of that into account, I don't believe that Rosalina reset the universe, and thus I find that part of the AP justification to be invalid and thus, not usable.

Warping the Universe
The next part of the AP Justification, the "and capable of warping and creating it." part.

To be completely honest, this is the weakest part of my rebuttal because I don't even know where this scene is from, as I don't believe it is from the Galaxy games as I don't remember it, nor any context surrounding it.

So, for this part of the CRT, I am asking for context.


What proves that she was warping the whole universe and not just a portion of space? This feat looks 4-A at best for just the gif, tbh.

More context is needed for this justification to be valid, so that's what I am asking for.

Superiority to the Grand Stars
The third and final part of the AP justification is, "Vastly superior to the power of all of the Grand Stars as well as a Grand Star empowered Bowser"

Like with my last part, I feel the need to ask - but where was this stated? Where was it said that Rosalina was vastly superior to all of the Grand Stars and a Grand Star empowered Bowser?

If my understanding is correct, as from what I stated from the comments of The real cal howard in this remake of the Rosalina vs. Alien X thread. Rosalina's superiority to the Grand Stars comes from her resetting them, along with everything else in the universe, if this statement, and this one too (also this one as well), from Cal is anything to go by.

Or in other words, the first part of her AP justification - which I have debunked earlier in this thread.

So seemingly this part of the justification seems to have been debunked as well - hitting two birds with one stone, as they say.

So once again, it isn't a usable justification.

Conclusion/TL:DR
Rosalina didn't reset the universe. Bowser's reactor creating the black hole and the Lumas kamikaze-ing themselves did - so she shouldn't scale to that feat or above all (or any) of the Grand Stars. Her forcefields tanking the explosion should, however, scale.

Also, there is no context to prove that this gif of Rosalina, "capable of warping and creating it(the universe)." is a valid justification for Low 2-C AP. So I'd like some context, please - as the feat looks 4-A without context.


As for her tier, I recommend that Rosalina's AP tiering was changed from:

"Attack Potency: At least Universe level+ (Effortlessly recreated the universe and capable of warping and creating it. Vastly superior to the power of all of the Grand Stars as well as a Grand Star empowered Bowser)"

To:

"Attack Potency: At least Large Star level (Seemingly shown to be comparable in strength to Mario and his friends in Super Mario 3-D World), possibly Multi-Solar System level (Shown to manipulate reality to create a space that contains numerous stars )"


And her Durability should from:

"Durability: At least Universe level+ (Completely unaffected by the universe's utter destruction by a supermassive black hole)"

To:

"Durability: At least Large Star level (Should be comparable to Mario) naturally. Universe level+ with forcefields (Was able to create a forcefield that could tank the universe's utter destruction by a supermassive black hole)"


Note: The reason I scaled Rosalina to other Mario characters from SM3DW is because IIRC, all Mario games are canon - and thus she should likely scale to them because she fought along side them in that game.

If I am wrong about this, I apologize, we can discuss proper tiering once this CRT is completed.

Also, I didn't give Rosalina 4-A durability because Rosalina has never shown naturally tanking an attack on that level, and I don't believe that reality-warping scales to durability. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.


Agree (With Downgrade): 9 (ZephyrosOmega, Eficiente, ShadowWarrior1999, Godhand1999, Oliver de jesus, Modernmyrmido, Emissary From Hell, Oblivion Lightning, Tony di bugalu)

Agree (With AP Justifcation Fixing): 4 (DarkDragonMedeus, TheArsenal1212, NotAMarioFan(lol), Antvasima)

Disagree Entirely:

3 (Dino Ranger Black, The real cal howard, Yobo Blue)

Ambivalent:

3 (Dust Collector, Maverick Zero X, Theuser789)
 
I agree with this. That said, I would also accept something along the lines of "At least Large Star Level physically, Multi-Solar System Level to Universe level+ with hax".
 
Rosa's profile is very poorly structured, Low 2-C or not, meanwhile everything said in this thread seems far more trustworthy and legit, I can't but agree with it.
 
First of all, her magic should be comparable to her force fields given that the forcefield is the exact same power source as he reality warping abilities; so her Attack Potency would be Low 2-C regardless. I can't post too much because I'm both very tired and very busy ATM due to just getting back from work not too long ago. But I agree that Dino Ranger Black addressed this numerous times.
 
Wouldn't it then just be Low 2-C with reality warping? This makes it way less of an outlier considering she's portrayed as physically equal to the other characters.
 
Only in terms of game mechanics; her being playable in 3D World and considered comparable to the other characters is just balancing the gameplay. She is by lore far above the rest of the cast. Plus, she's the Princess/Mother of all lumas and should be far superior to all of them and I'm pretty sure there is flavor text that puts her far above Grand Stars.
 
But her having universal hax would still work in making her way stronger, especially under the context of her being primarily magic and almost never using her magic outside the main series (smash notwithstanding).
 
That was a false equivalency. All of the things you said before were wrong

  • "by lore far above the rest of the cast" Not physically.
  • "Plus, she's the Princess/Mother of all lumas and should be far superior to all of them" Literal headcanon.
  • "I'm pretty sure there is flavor text that puts her far above Grand Stars." False.
 
Of course, a certian fanbase of the hedgehog will just raid into this and nod their heads at this just because they see the words downgarde associated with his rival. I'm really tired of this dead war and how close minded the fans are...

Anyway, Warren, since you seem like the more reasonable person and I actually understand your issues, but the profiles stays as they are. There are two factors you overlooked that also play into her rating:

1. Bowser- Rosalina isn't just scaled off from Grand Star Bowser for ridiculous reasons. Bowser surivived the entire phenomena and it's specifically stated that she shielded Mario and Peach, not Bowser or herself. This wasn't labelled in former's profile since it would mean scaling Mario and everyone, making the scaling out of control. But in her case, as a cosmic being who has immense knowledge on the verse and powers that Bowser uses in attempting to re-create a new universe, she naturally would be able to be superior to him in both AP and durability. It's the reason she appeared to Mario as large figure during the recreation after all.

2. Grand Stars- Rosalina owns and creates Lumas, Power Stars, and Grand Stars. Naturally, she is superior to the Lumas and the Grand Star already have solid Low 2-C feats, so the argument is pretty moot at this point.

Please reply to my wall if you have anymore question. I'm unfollowing because I rather not deal with the ignorance of a certian downplaying fanbase. Plus, I have work in the morning. Thank you for your concern about the profile.
 
@Dino. Can you do us Sonic fans a favor? STOP BRINGING US INTO THESE MISHAPS!!! It's not like we planned this or something. Someone just got on an Alien X vs Rosalina thread and said "You know what? This fat blonde needs to be downgraded like I planned". Plus, I like Rosalina and she's the only Mario character I even give a rat's ass about to be completely and brutally honest. Us Sonic fans don't have all the time in the world for downgrading verses 24/7 that's not Sonic based. So plus stop putting our aliases names out of your disgusting BING BING WAHOO mouth please? And I use that insult loosely.
 
Okay, I can understand you guys are upset, but he does make a point. Whenever a Mario downgrade thread is made, there are plenty of blank who just blindly say "I agree with the downgrade" while completely ignoring context or pass other threads. And it's not every fan of said verse, but quite a lot of them and it is a fact that being a supporter of the opposite verse seems to be a primary motive.

Also, @VioletVoid, please don't use slur words. That 4 letter T word could potentially get you globally blocked again.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Okay, I can understand you guys are upset, but he does make a point. Whenever a Mario downgrade thread is made, there are plenty of blank who just blindly say "I agree with the downgrade" while completely ignoring context or pass other threads. And it's not every fan of said verse, but quite a lot of them and it is a fact that being a supporter of the opposite verse seems to be a primary motive.
Also, @VioletVoid, please don't use slur words. That 4 letter T word could potentially get you globally blocked again.
Ah yes, the worst slur of them all...


Trix.
 
I don't know any Sonic fan who genuinely try's to help and advocate for Mario's downgrade honestly.We can agree and disagree on threads but we don't actively attack the threads.

The only time we ever went against Mario was off site and it was about 1-A Mario.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Okay, I can understand you guys are upset, but he does make a point. Whenever a Mario downgrade thread is made, there are plenty of blank who just blindly say "I agree with the downgrade" while completely ignoring context or pass other threads. And it's not every fan of said verse, but quite a lot of them and it is a fact that being a supporter of the opposite verse seems to be a primary motive.
Also, @VioletVoid, please don't use slur words. That 4 letter T word could potentially get you globally blocked again.
Well tell your buddy to stop blaming Sonic fans for everything. This is like the civil rights but with vs debates
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Okay, I can understand you guys are upset, but he does make a point. Whenever a Mario downgrade thread is made, there are plenty of blank who just blindly say "I agree with the downgrade" while completely ignoring context or pass other threads. And it's not every fan of said verse, but quite a lot of them and it is a fact that being a supporter of the opposite verse seems to be a primary motive.
Also, @VioletVoid, please don't use slur words. That 4 letter T word could potentially get you globally blocked again.


No, he's not making a point. What he's doing is resorting to ad-hominem attacks on individuals who pose no threat to the threads at hand. All he's doing is creating unnecessary hostility where it doesn't belong. We don't have an ulterior motive. What we see is a post that is supported with facts and evidence from the games, so we support the upgrade that is all. It's that simple, there's no need to attack anyone.
 
I guess I should mention that I actually really dislike the sonic franchise, ESPECIALLY in vs, and love the mario games. But I've been wanting Rosa downgraded for a while now
 
Anyways now that we've derailed from the topic at hand

I think the current consensus is High 4-C physically, Low 2-C with magic
 
@Zephyros, didn't you also make a thread that was going to upgrade Mario and fodder Goombas to universal?

@EveryoneElse Also, Dino left the thread due to the hostility. And actually, not going to say names, but a few users who are currently blocked are legit every bit as hostile as they're said to be. And also, don't use long quotes.

Anyway, what Dino said about the teirings is that her ratings should remain as they are. She perhaps could use more scans and more elaborate justifications, but she is legit easily superior to Grand Star Powered Bowser who has the Low 2-C feats. She scales accordingly, and creates Grand Stars. Case and Point.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Zephyros, didn't you also make a thread that was going to upgrade Mario and fodder Goombas to universal?
I also bought into the propaganda of another vs site, and even at the time I was just posting the guy's blog here more out of curiosity. To be frank, I don't believe anyone in the marioverse should be universal in base.
 
He's the one who brought the hostility here in the first place and he never should have caused a problem.

Anyway Sonic has no prevalence in this thread and shouldn't be mentioned further.
 
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