Satella vs Shuna

[Robo432343]

Satella (Re:Zero)

Satella is the Witch of Envy, who 400 years ago killed the six other Witches of Sin while swallowing half the world. Despite the efforts of many, including the Dragon, the Sword Saint, and the Sage, Satella was unable to be killed and was instead sealed in a shrine that is watched over. Tier...

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vs

Shuna (Light Novel)

Shuna「朱しゅ菜な Shuna」is one of the six Kijin who were named by Rimuru Tempest. Despite not often engaging in combat, she is extremely skilled and talented in magic. She is also the head of Tempest's Department of Production and one of Rimuru's economic advisors. Tier: High 6-C | 6-B, at least 5-B...

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Both High 6-C
SBA Otherwise
Speed =

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ok, it seems Shuna One-Shot, but Satella can still demage her with Duraneg.
Not that It matters, because i don't know how Satella gonna counter her Power nullification.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Hmm

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Shuna would need to first see Satella's attack to be able to nullify it if i am correct but i dont see her being able to dodge it if it spawns right on her. So i guess thats a wincon for her?

Also, idk why people ignore this but she can use rbd as well so she would have prior knowledge on Shuna and her fighting style

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

bump

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

bump

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

bump

 

[Robo432343]

shuna claps both ways

 

[Phoenks]

Shuna lacks a resistant to madness type 3 so she ends up just going insane and killing herself by just being next to Satella

 

[CodeCCLL]

Shuna lacks a resistant to madness type 3 so she ends up just going insane and killing herself by just being next to Satella

Satella cannot interact Shuna's İnformation (Type 2) Mind's and Soul's. Shuna has unconventional resistance to mind-soul based attacks.

 

[Phoenks]

Satella cannot interact Shuna's İnformation (Type 2) Mind's and Soul's. Shuna has unconventional resistance to mind-soul based attacks.

Madness manipulation type 3 does not require mind or soul interaction. It's simply a byproduct of being next to her. Requires a specific resistance to it that she lacks.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Madness manipulation type 3 does not require mind or soul interaction

"Likewise, unless there is evidence to suggest differently, beings whose physical forms are similarly complex or extreme in nature are likely to be unaffected by exposure to such a being." Shuna's physical body is merely a shell surrounding the soul. How satella can affect physical flesh and bone.

 

[Phoenks]

"Likewise, unless there is evidence to suggest differently, beings whose physical forms are similarly complex or extreme in nature are likely to be unaffected by exposure to such a being." Shuna's physical body is merely a shell surrounding the soul. How satella can affect physical flesh and bone.

Similarly complex or extreme in nature would mean entities that also possess madness manipulation (3) or eldritch entities and such.

Shuna's existence isn't "similarly complex or extreme" at all.

Also, tbh, that's a pretty weirdly worded statement imo. Should probably be removed from the page.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Shuna lacks a resistant to madness type 3 so she ends up just going insane and killing herself by just being next to Satella

Not really, since Satella Madness hax is not that fast. Satella hax never really kill someone that fast, just by being near them, It would take some time. Of course, if

 

[Phoenks]

Not really, since Satella Madness hax is not that fast. Satella hax never really kill someone that fast, just by being near them, It would take some time. Of course, if

Satella has rarely even been on screen at all lmfao.

When she was actually on screen in Arc 4, she drove Subaru insane pretty damn quickly.

Subaru has resistance to madness 3 as well, which would mean hers is layered.

Satella stomps.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Satella has rarely even been on screen at all lmfao.

She alteast appeared 4 times already on arcs, and most of the time, she din't actually drive people insane that fast.

When she was actually on screen in Arc 4, she drove Subaru insane pretty damn quickly.

Which scene you talking about? Because i don't remember Subaru ever seeing her, and immediality going Crazy and killing himself.
Not even Garfiel did so.

Not that It matters, because i don't know how Satella gonna counter her Power nullification.

Actually, since Shuna Powernull is apparently based on her vision, they start 4km away, she might not able to immediality pull this one on Satella, and probally would need to get closer. How good is she in dodging? Because that would be very import, because aphroaching Satella is pretty much suicidal, with the amount Hands she can Summon.

 

[Phoenks]

She alteast appeared 4 times already on arcs, and most of the time, she din't actually drive people insane that fast.

Most of the time, she was around people who resisted it to an extent.

Which scene you talking about? Because i don't remember Subaru ever seeing her, and immediality going Crazy and killing himself.
Not even Garfiel did so.

Here it is mentioned that the miasma would drive Subaru insane, which it ended up doing during arc 6.

Actually, since Shuna Powernull is apparently based on her vision, they start 4km away, she might not able to immediality pull this one on Satella, and probally would need to get closer. How good is she in dodging? Because that would be very import, because aphroaching Satella is pretty much suicidal, with the amount Hands she can Summon.

Her power nullification is explicitly based on analysis, which Satella hard counters because her miasma comes with Type 3 madness, which means the moment Shuna attempts to analyze her, she'd driven mad.

 

[Zabazab]

Satella has never actually appeared physically. It has only ever been a Shadow she sends out, or her possessing something. Echidna even states that the possessed Emilia wasn't even a fraction of Satella's true level.

Also Satella's (layered) miasma > Echidna's miasma, which is instant insanity followed by suicide in 30 seconds.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Most of the time, she was around people who resisted it to an extent.

Not really, a bunch of characters in Arc 6 and Arc 7 who don't actually, as able to be in her prescense and din't go crazy immediality.

Here it is mentioned that the miasma would drive Subaru insane, which it ended up doing during arc 6.

Ok, i know she can drive people insane, i asking when she did this with Subaru in Arc 4.

Her power nullification is explicitly based on analysis, which Satella hard counters because her miasma comes with Type 3 madness, which means the moment Shuna attempts to analyze her, she'd driven mad.

Depends.
Shuna can boost her perceptation speed up to 1000 times, so she only need to analyze Satella and counter her abilities super fast, before going mad.

Considering It happens in a instant her analyzis and Powernull, If she could pull this off before going mad is anyone guess.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Satella has never actually appeared physically. It has only ever been a Shadow she sends out, or her possessing something. Echidna even states that the possessed Emilia wasn't even a fraction of Satella's true level.

True, but we can only use the times she appeared like tha for featst, because we don't have any feats of her appearing physically to make a asserment of her true power.
So like, even If she is better, we can make a currate asserment of how much.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Unless someone can tell me How good is Shuna in combat, Satella would most likely Win this with her range.

 

[Phoenks]

Not really, a bunch of characters in Arc 6 and Arc 7 who don't actually, as able to be in her prescense and din't go crazy immediality.

Like who?

Ok, i know she can drive people insane, i asking when she did this with Subaru in Arc 4.

In Arc 4 when Satella was summoned, Subaru was bein driven mad while inside the miasma. He eventually committed suicide to escape.

Shuna can boost her perceptation speed up to 1000 times, so she only need to analyze Satella and counter her abilities super fast, before going mad.

You would need to provide evidence that Shuna would know to boost her perception speed before analyzing Satella.

As far as I know, the analysis powernull isn't even a starting movie. And even if it was, unless she directly starts with perception boosting, she is still going to be driven mad.

The scenario you bring up is a far, far less likely outcome.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Like who?

A list of characters.
Like, Orbalt and Yorna in Arc 7. Ram and Anastacia in the various failed loops on Arc 6.

In Arc 4 when Satella was summoned, Subaru was bein driven mad while inside the miasma. He eventually committed suicide to escape.

He was not trought, he was doing coherent thinking till that moment, that's why he as able to commit suicide in the first place, since is also the only way to escape. If he was mad, he would't be able to pull Satella hood and see Emília face.

So yeah, she din't actually drive Subaru insane that fast, It takes a while.

You would need to provide evidence that Shuna would know to boost her perception speed before analyzing Satella.

As far as I know, the analysis powernull isn't even a starting movie. And even if it was, unless she directly starts with perception boosting, she is still going to be driven mad.

The scenario you bring up is a far, far less likely outcome.

So you argument is that is not her first move?
What exactly does she start with them? I don't remember much the last time i read.
Because they start 4km away, and Shuna is complety outmatch in range, so this might as well be a stomp anyway, If she din't even uses her Powernull.

 

[Robo432343]

satella is so hot

 

[Zabazab]

A list of characters.
Like, Orbalt and Yorna in Arc 7. Ram and Anastacia in the various failed loops on Arc 6.

That wasn't Satella, merely a clump of Yin created by her.

So like, even If she is better, we can make a currate asserment of how much.

We do use "The Real" Satella on site, otherwise she wouldn't scale to Reinhard, Reid, Volcanica, etc.

 

[Fezzih_007]

satella is so hot

Wow.

We do use "The Real" Satella on site, otherwise she wouldn't scale to Reinhard, Reid, Volcanica, etc.

We really should do a Key separation, like "True Satella" and "The Yin clones" because we treat them as the same basically

I meant for like, the potency of her hax, like even trought Satella true form have better hax, we can really only use the feats that she perfomed on screen.
Can i give you a example?

 

[Zabazab]

No, we should not make keys for a character that has only ever properly appeared in a dream. The clumps of Yin are her power anyway, they can't have abilities she herself doesn't.

Satella's miasma drove Subaru insane.
Subaru can withstand the miasma of the Six Witches of Sin.
Echidna's miasma alone was enough to drive people to insanity & suicide in moments.

It's that simple.

 

[Fezzih_007]

No, we should not make keys for a character that has only ever properly appeared in a dream. The clumps of Yin are her power anyway, they can't have abilities she herself doesn't.

I gonna make anyway. This should be a good opportunity.

Satella's miasma drove Subaru insane.

It did, but is also after hours of him wandering in that tunnel, and the effects as him are going crazy to make him unconcern of killing his friends, he din't kill himself after.
Nor did the people that are with him, who don't posses a resistance.

Subaru can withstand the miasma of the Six Witches of Sin.

Echidna's miasma alone was enough to drive people to insanity & suicide in moments.

It's that simple.

So i feeling a sense of Déja Vu here, so i gonna say Satella stomp If Shuna don't start with Powernull, because of her range, and for now
I gonna leave at that.

 

[Robo432343]

bruh cant shuna do something at the last second

 

[Phoenks]

If Shuna starts with analysis she loses even faster because trying to analyze an existence that drives people insane is the last thing you'd want to do...

Also, her power nullification would likely not work in nullification of madness type 3 considering that is a byproduct of a witch's existence, rather than a "skill" like the powers in Tensei Slime.

 

[Zabazab]

I gonna make anyway. This should be a good opportunity.

Completely unnecessary, please do not.

It did, but is also after hours of him wandering in that tunnel, and the effects as him are going crazy to make him unconcern of killing his friends, he din't kill himself after.
Nor did the people that are with him, who don't posses a resistance.

That was because they were several kilometres away from a sealed Satella. Just walking into her evil-sealing shrine has been stated as as deadly as walking into a room of poison gas by the Author.

 

[Fezzih_007]

bruh cant shuna do something at the last second

Not with the range of 4km.

Completely unnecessary, please do not.

In my opinion, is very nescessary so i will.
We have keys for characters in this wiki for less lol.
Don't worry, i gonna make It work.

 

[Zabazab]

It's not even a different form, it's just a clump of magic she sends out. Satella is the exact same as she was pre-sealing. A key makes absolutely no sense.

This also isn't the appropriate place to be discussing it I suppose.

bruh cant shuna do something at the last second

Average Satella match, if even one of her hax isn't resisted she tends to violate, but if all of it is resisted she can't really do anything.

She also hasn't even shown up yet and there's little information on her, so we'd prefer that she not be used very much in VS matches.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It's not even a different form, it's just a clump of magic she sends out. Satella is the exact same as she was pre-sealing. A key makes absolutely no sense.

I gonna make my arguments on the Key separation when i start, but It don't exactly need to be a different form to be a diferent Key, so is fine.
Don't worry, the key separation gonna make sense, you can trust me.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I'm bored of debating Low, Low-Mid tier "Tensura" characters versus High-God tier "Re: Zero" characters, but still...

If Shuna starts with analysis she loses even faster because trying to analyze an existence that drives people insane is the last thing you'd want to do... Also, her power nullification would likely not work in nullification of madness type 3 considering that is a byproduct of a witch's existence, rather than a "skill" like the powers in Tensei Slime.

Shuna's information analysis and power mimicry is fundamental information level... Additionally, since Tensura characters can interfere with the nature of other characters with magic.

Magic, Reality Warping and Law Manipulation (Magic is an idea projected into Reality and used to turn imagination into Reality and influence the laws of the world)

Also, I still don't think Satella can affect Shuna. Shuna hasn't direct resistance to Madness Type 3 but Satella cannot affect her mind or soul. Shuna's body is nothing more than a physical shell. If Satella cannot affect even trees, plants and stones that haven't mental activity, she cannot affect Shuna.

As far as I know, the analysis powernull isn't even a starting movie. And even if it was, unless she directly starts with perception boosting, she is still going to be driven mad.

The scenario you bring up is a far, far less likely outcome.

Shuna started with illusion creation and sleep manipulation when she wasn't even a Kijin yet, but her starting moves in her Kijin state were definitely her Unique Skill -Analysis-. (power/information analyse, power mimicry and hasten though (1000x thought speed amp))

 

[Zabazab]

I'm bored of debating Low, at best Low-Mid tier "Tensura" characters versus High-God tier "Re: Zero" characters, but still...

The Re:Zero top tiers shouldn't be used in debates due to there being little no info on their capabilities.

Also, I still don't think Satella can affect Shuna. Shuna hasn't direct resistance to Madness Type 3 but Satella cannot affect her mind or soul. Shuna's body is nothing more than a physical shell. If Satella cannot affect even trees, plants and stones that haven't mental activity, she cannot affect Shuna.

Shuna's untouchable mind/soul would prevent Madness Type 2, but not Madness Type 3.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Shuna's untouchable mind/soul would prevent Madness Type 2, but not Madness Type 3.

If Satella can affect beings that haven't mental/cognitive activity, she can affect Shuna's physical body and she is go mad. But Satella affecting Shuna would be like making the bark of a tree mad. I'm not talking about resistance, Shuna's physiology is immune to the conventional definition of madness hax.

Additionally, Shuna's Madness Manip Type 2 resistance comes from resisting a unique skill that "affect unconventional resistances." So this is irrevelant.

 

[Zabazab]

You're misunderstanding the nature of Madness Type 3. It does not manipulate the soul or mind. Type 2 would be Madness via mental attacks, manipulating the mind to cause insanity, and can be resisted by resisting mind manipulation.

Type 3:

Cognition: Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

Type 3's weaknesses:

Limitations: Those who are capable of perceiving, understanding and/or experiencing that which is naturally extreme or incomprehensible should be able to ignore this. Likewise, unless there is evidence to suggest differently, beings whose physical forms are similarly complex or extreme in nature are likely to be unaffected by exposure to such a being.

 

[CodeCCLL]

You're misunderstanding the nature of Madness Type 3. It does not manipulate the soul or mind. Type 2 would be Madness via mental attacks, manipulating the mind to cause insanity, and can be resisted by resisting mind manipulation.

"Madness Manipulation is the ability to affect the sanity of other beings, usually in a manner that causes them to become insane."

Whether it's biological manipulation, mind manipulation, or just their own existence doesn't matter. No one talks about the type of madness hax. Just as you don’t go to mad who doesn't have a mind, you don’t go to mad whose mind you can't interact with. Of course, anything is possible in fiction, if a character is shown to be able to mad inanimate or mindless beings with the madness hax, then this case is different, but as far as I can tell from your reactions, that is not the case in here.

 

[Zabazab]

You're just not taking in what I'm saying, I suppose.

It does not matter how many layers of mind hax resistance one has, nor how impossible-to-interact-with their mind may be. Madness Type 3 does NOT function by attacking the mind. It is a side-effect of the victim being unable to experience or comprehend the extreme existence before them, driving them insane.

The only way to resist Madness Type 3 is to have feats of doing so, to be capable of experiencing the extreme nature of the madness user, or themselves be a similarly extreme existence.