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Serious Broly upgrades

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And I think destroying 1/4 of the universe over time is more than 3-B. Besides Hatchiyak warped all of the northern galaxies.
 
... Huh?

Even if we assume Broly is 100 years old (Hah, no), destroying large sectors of Galaxies means his AP would exponentially be higher than it is now.

If he destroyed the entirety of the entire North Section, and each section is hundreds of billions of Galaxies (Lets say 10 billion for the sake of simplicity)...

  • 10,000,000,000 Galaxies over 100 years
  • 10,0000,000 Galaxies over a single year (10,000,000,000/100)
  • 273972.60274 Galaxies in a single day (10,0000,000/365)
  • 11415.5251142 Galaxies in an hour (273972.60274/24)
  • 3.17097919839 Galaxies in a single second (11415.5251142/3600)
So no, even if we assume Broly is literally an old man (Saiyans have a similar lifespan to humans remember, it's only that they stay in their physical primes longer) and did absolutely nothing but destroy the North Galaxies for his entire life, we'd still get 3 Galaxies destroyed every single second. This is ignoring how there's likely much more Galaxies than this (In real life, we have 200 billion known galaxies in the observable universe so 1/4 of it is 50 billion Galaxies) as well as the fact that Broly has to both eat and sleep (So the amount destroyed is much higher and in larger bursts).

So what do you mean you don't see any changes that need to be made?
 
Reality warping doesn't always scale to AP unless there's more context. And Broly's feat could be seen as an impressive speed feat rather than assuming he's one-shotting multiple galaxies at once.
 
I don't see the issue with 3-B when we did the same thing with 4-A. That's like saying Broly destroying a galaxy over time is just high 4-C because of how fast he is.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree with Zamasu's 3rd comment. First of all, Broly is not the strongest toeiVerse villain; he was at the time but not now. Especially since he was fought and defeated around Cell Saga, he should be Anime Cell saga cast level.
And also, the "Four Galaxies" are obviously much more than galaxies and those a mistranslation. Those are the four quadrants of the universe which clearly consists of hundreds of billions of galaxies each. However, there is not a known timeframe, and the best calculated feat at the time was 4-A. So I don't see any changes that need to be made.
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Koyama creater of all the movies and who directed hundreds of episodes of the anime stated that he's the strongest and is above everyone in the Anime and he couldn't make an opponent stronger than him.

And the Broly movies probably happened in a parallel universe as Base Gohan there is able to keep up with Ssj Broly (M10) who is equal to Lssj Broly (M8) who stomped ssj Teen Gohan
 
Broly getting upgraded to 3-B due to destroying the entire South Quadrant is fine. Toeiverse Cell has some universal statements that could perhaps be considered consistent because of that. Broly being the strongest Toeiverse villain... I have a few issues with that.

1) At the end of Bio-Broly, Goku and Pikkon were both told to stop Broly since he was causing issues in Hell. Since Broly wasn't heard from again afterwards, it's kinda clear Goku and Pikkon were able to defeat him.

2) When Goku went SSJ3 against Fat Janemba in Fusion Reborn, he stated that nobody had ever pushed him this far before except for Majin Buu. That would put both Fat Buu and Fat Janemba above Broly.

3) Broly after his Zenkai was killed by the Family Kamehameha that was at most composed of two Super Saiyan 2s and one Super Saiyan.

4) If Broly was stronger than Janemba and Hirudegarn, Second Coming literally wouldn't have happened. Gohan would have been killed instantly.
 
Broly should definitely be 3-B

But if Broly is the strongest villain of the movies then really it should not scale to the other movies thats my problem right now

On top of which Hatchyack would also scale to 3-B Broly.

Fusion Reborn should of been a separate ordeal anyways because it doesn't make sense matter of fact most of these Movies seem to follow a what if storyline

Movie 1. (What if Raditz was killed and Goku survived)

Movie 2. (What if Goku arrived before Piccolo's demise)

Movie 3. (What if Goku arrived to face the Saiyans before any Z fighter died)

Movie 4. (What if the Spirit Bomb killed Frieza)

Movie 5. (What if SSJ Goku killed Frieza on Namek)

Movie 6.(direct sequel to Movie 5 but Android 19 and 20 were destroyed)

Movie 7 (What if the Z fighters beat the Androids and Imperfect Cell)

Movie 8. (What if Vegeta defeated Semi Perfect Cell)

Movie 9. (What if Cell didn't return from his self destruction)

Movie 10. (What if Vegeta's Self Destruction worked)

Movie 11. (Sequel to the top^)

Movie 12. (What if Gotenks defeated Majin Buu)

Movie 13. (Either Gohan, Vegito or the main Canon happened to cause this movie)

But at the same time some of the movies seem to be linked to each other due to being sequels or references/cameos for example:

Movie 5 and 6 are linked due to being direct sequels

Movies 8, 10, 11 are linked through sequels

Eradicate the Saiyans links Movies (3,4,5,6 and 8)

Movie 12 links literally all the movies together (Every minion and even Paragus and Bojack appeared.)
 
My conclusion

Can't we just call Broly > than obviously stronger villains a Death of the Author Fallacy or something like that. For Paragus even appearing in Fusion Reborn makes the argument of Broly stronger than other Villains mute because we have a much stronger Goku who shook the whole After Life and Gogeta who filled the whole Universe of Hell with his energy. I think woth a DotA we would be able to scale the other characters in the Toeiverse Post Broly to 3-B
 
Zamasu Chan said:
As stated on his profile, Broly is 4-A for destroying sectors of the south galaxy. Which is one of the four galaxies that make up the universe. However, for the hundredth time, Úèǵ▓│ (Ginga) translates to both "Galaxy" and "Galaxies". When they say North galaxy, they mean to say North galaxies; it's a mistranslation.
So in reality, no Broly was not destroying sectors of a galaxy, he was destroying sectors of 1/4 of the universe.

This is supported by the fact that Broly was said to eventually destroy the universe.
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Do you mean the South Galaxy when you mentioned North Galaxy, or is that a part of a mistranslation?

We'd have to see why its a mistranslation using context and other translators backing that up. Given we visually see a galaxy being destroyed in Broly's RSSJ of all things, I have doubts its suposed to mean 1/4 of the galaxy. Broly being a threat to the universe can be interperted as a general threat, like Cell and Frieza. Or could be due to Broly's insane growth. (I mean, going Super Saiyan as a baby and surviving Frieza's Supernova and eventually destroying a galaxy without ever training shows massive potential.)

Not from this post, but as a general reminder to everyone on the thread, but Koyama is infamously known to be a Broly fanboy, so death of the author likely applies here a lot. That said, given that he does have a point that Broly's death were 'unorthodox', there is some leeway on not being an outlier.
 
LordTracer said:
Broly getting upgraded to 3-B due to destroying the entire South Quadrant is fine. Toeiverse Cell has some universal statements that could perhaps be considered consistent because of that. Broly being the strongest Toeiverse villain... I have a few issues with that.
1) At the end of Bio-Broly, Goku and Pikkon were both told to stop Broly since he was causing issues in Hell. Since Broly wasn't heard from again afterwards, it's kinda clear Goku and Pikkon were able to defeat him.

2) When Goku went SSJ3 against Fat Janemba in Fusion Reborn, he stated that nobody had ever pushed him this far before except for Majin Buu. That would put both Fat Buu and Fat Janemba above Broly.

3) Broly after his Zenkai was killed by the Family Kamehameha that was at most composed of two Super Saiyan 2s and one Super Saiyan.

4) If Broly was stronger than Janemba and Hirudegarn, Second Coming literally wouldn't have happened. Gohan would have been killed instantly.
Click to expand...

1) Why do people think that the Broly that caused rampage in Hell (M11 ending) was the real one? He started doing it right after Bio-Broly has died, which makes me think that it actually was Broly's Clone that caused chaos in hell.

2) well it's because Broly never went full power against Goku, he always was supressed so he can toy with his opponent, like how he toyed against Chi Chi and didn't just one shot her

3) Well even base Gohan was equal to Ssj Broly M10 Who is equal to Lssj Broly M8, tho the're far above their anime counter parts.

4) Again, Broly likes to toy with his opponent, that's what he did to Chi Chi
 
Koyama's statement is death of the author so there's no need to discuss that anymore.

The southern galaxies are the same set of galaxies mentioned in the Daizenshuu.

To quote:

"The Living World is also called the Present World. To be frank, it means the vast universe. This universe is divided into four galaxies; other than that, it is known that there is a chaotic place called the Devil Realm somewhere in the universe. The sections known as the East-West-North-South Galaxies only utilize Kami as administration units, and the lifeforms who reside in the Living World are able to freely travel the galaxies. Of course, that is supposing they have the technology...
Incidentally, Earth, where SON Gokuu and his friends live, exists in the North Galaxy. The North Galaxy seems to have some of the most beautiful planets.
The Devil Realm is a unique place within the Living World. It is a place that the eyes of the Kami in the World Beyond are unable to see; little is known other than the fact that wicked lifeforms live there. There are records of these lifeforms threatening the peace on planets in the universe.
Ordinary lifeforms cannot freely travel from the Living World to the World Beyond. The only way to go is by turning into souls upon death. However, there are some who are given permission to travel by the Kami of the World Beyond, though they are few in number."
 
AwkguyDB said:
My conclusion
Can't we just call Broly > than obviously stronger villains a Death of the Author Fallacy or something like that. For Paragus even appearing in Fusion Reborn makes the argument of Broly stronger than other Villains mute because we have a much stronger Goku who shook the whole After Life and Gogeta who filled the whole Universe of Hell with his energy. I think woth a DotA we would be able to scale the other characters in the Toeiverse Post Broly to 3-B
Click to expand...
Some movies are Connected to the anime, because of Garlic Jr, but Broly is an exception, as even the Daizenshuu questions why Goku and Friends are having a picnic when they should be worrieing about Cell, not even trunks brings up Cell, but in the Bojack movie we know Cell happened, and the Paragus in Fusion reborn isn't the Paragus from the Broly movie,it's just a cameo, just like how Goku can be in the movies and in the manga, that doesn't mean the're connected, the same reason why him following Frieza's order makes no sense, same with Bojack following Frieza's orders which also makes no sense
 
SomebodyData said:
Not from this post, but as a general reminder to everyone on the thread, but Koyama is infamously known to be a Broly fanboy, so death of the author likely applies here a lot. That said, given that he does have a point that Broly's death were 'unorthodox', there is some leeway on not being an outlier.
Click to expand...
How does him being a fan of his creation makes his word wrong? Toei doesn't think so, as they deleted their statement of Janemba being the strongest because Koyama said Broly is the strongest, this shows Toei thinks his word is better than theirs,and We still use ONE's statements soooooo.....
 
A different version in a continuity needs evidence to support otherwise that's headcanon. Just because it could set in a different timeline doesn't mean the same events didn't take place. As I and Zamasu said we can render Koyama's statement as a death of the author statement because it's contradicted in the source material regardless of Toei pulling anything from any guide.

3-B to everyone Broly and above, I don't see how that's not a win-win situation right there.
 
@Adem

1) The fact that Broly wasn't heard from would honestly still show Pikkon is superior to him since he keeps order in Hell. And iirc, there weren't any implications that it's not the original Broly. Especially since the OG Broly was already in Hell, and it likely would have been made clear if they meant Bio-Broly, who very clearly isn't the same Broly.

2) Is there any actual evidence Broly was suppressed after he went LSSJ during Movie Eight?

3) And...? That doesn't change my point in the slightest since I'm referring to the Toeiverse.

4) Is there any actual evidence that Second Coming Broly was suppressed in his fight with Gohan, or when he was killed by the Family Kamehameha?

Also, is there anything other than WoG that suggests Broly is beyond Super Saiyan 3 level? Toeiverse SSJ2 Gohan was able to at least somewhat affect Second Coming Broly and withstand attacks from him, yet he got one-shot by Toeiverse Fat Buu. And then there's the likes of SSJ3 Goku, Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, the various other Buu forms that would be way beyond that SSJ2 Gohan that wasn't instantly obliterated by Second Coming Broly.
 
AwkguyDB said:
A different version in a continuity needs evidence to support otherwise that's headcanon. Just because it could set in a different timeline doesn't mean the same events didn't take place. As I and Zamasu said we can render Koyama's statement as a death of the author statement because it's contradicted in the source material regardless of Toei pulling anything from any guide.
3-B to everyone Broly and above, I don't see how that's not a win-win situation right there.
Click to expand...
That seems good, will anyone calc the Broly feat?
 
Toei's scaling should look something like

Super Saiyan Fusions > Super Janemba > Base Vegito/Gogeta > Toei Buuha > M13 SSJ3 Goku w Dragon Fist > Hirudegarn 2nd Form > Toei Buutenks > Toei Super Buu > Hirudegar >= Toei Kid Buu >= M12/Toei SSJ3 Goku >= Fat Janemba >= Toei Fat Buu >= LSSJ Broly M10 > SSJ2 Adult Goha > M8 Restricted SSJ Broly = 3-B (destroyed portions of the South Galaxy quadrant and was a threat to the other quadrants in the Universe)

Probably not accurate but something to possibly work with
 
AwkguyDB said:
Toei's scaling should look something like
Super Saiyan Fusions > Super Janemba > Base Vegito/Gogeta > Toei Buuha > M13 SSJ3 Goku w Dragon Fist > Hirudegarn 2nd Form > Toei Buutenks > Toei Super Buu > Hirudegar >= Toei Kid Buu >= M12/Toei SSJ3 Goku >= Fat Janemba >= Toei Fat Buu >= LSSJ Broly M10 > SSJ2 Adult Goha > M8 Restricted SSJ Broly = 3-B (destroyed portions of the South Galaxy quadrant and was a threat to the other quadrants in the Universe)

Probably not accurate but something to possibly work with
Click to expand...
Wouldn't Kid Buu be the strongest Buu in The Toeiverse? For all the Kai statements?
 
Nah I think Toeiverse SSJ3 Goku vs Buutenks shows that Goku didn't want to mess with any of the Super Buus at all. Matter of fact even after the Fusion timer ran out for Buutenks he told Gohan to engage with Buu instead of fighting him as a SSJ3. Something he was rather confident doing against Kid Buu and turned down the Potaras again while regretting Vegeta destroying them in Super Buu's body.
 
Also didn't Buuhan (who would know exactly how strong a fully powered Kid Buu is) state that he was the "ultimate Majin?"
 
LordTracer said:
Also didn't Buuhan (who would know exactly how strong a fully powered Kid Buu is) state that he was the "ultimate Majin?"
Click to expand...
Yeah exactly he did when he "absorbed" Vegito
 
AwkguyDB said:
Nah I think Toeiverse SSJ3 Goku vs Buutenks shows that Goku didn't want to mess with any of the Super Buus at all. Matter of fact even after the Fusion timer ran out for Buutenks he told Gohan to engage with Buu instead of fighting him as a SSJ3. Something he was rather confident doing against Kid Buu and turned down the Potaras again while regretting Vegeta destroying them in Super Buu's body.
Click to expand...
What about These statements? One of them is from the Narrator himself, and didn't Goku charge at Buucolo? I don't remember it well, and both in the manga and the anime Goku stated Buu was "Lollygagging", whatever that means.

And I don't think (M10) Adult Gohan is the same as Toeiverse Gohan, as the one in the movies trained and was actually stronger, he was able to keep up with Ssj Broly (M10) (Who is as strong as Lssj Broly (M8)) in base, so he's at least ×100 times his teen version, which isn't the case with the Toeiverse Gohan,soooooo.....
 
The Toeiverse continuity includes the movies. It's uncut DBZ + the movies, so Second Coming Gohan is the same as Toeiverse Gohan.
 
The Son Goku (Toei) profile includes the movies along with uncut DBZ, so clearly that's the site defines the Toeiverse continuity as movies + uncut DBZ.
 
LordTracer said:
The Son Goku (Toei) profile includes the movies along with uncut DBZ, so clearly that's the site defines the Toeiverse continuity as movies + uncut DBZ.
Click to expand...
But Goku doesn't have any contradictions, and the characters like the Buus shouldn't scale to the Movie 10 Gohan but the Anime Gohan.
 
Filler.

Filler is a part of DBZ that's permanently linked to it. It's not DBZ without the filler. So it's not "uncut", that's just how it is.
 
Movie 3 contradicts the Saiyan and Namek Sagas, still used on Goku's profile. Movie 4 also contradicts the Namek Saga, still used for Goku. Still part of the Toeiverse continuity, so it gets used. No reason for Second Coming to be any different.
 
LordTracer said:
Movie 3 contradicts the Saiyan and Namek Sagas, still used on Goku's profile. Movie 4 also contradicts the Namek Saga, still used for Goku. Still part of the Toeiverse continuity, so it gets used. No reason for Second Coming to be any different.
Click to expand...
Well in power, didn't Movie 3 happen between the Saiyan and Namek sagas? So him being 30 000 isn't that much, and the Goku from Movie 4 has the same power of the Goku that fought Frieza.
 
I wasn't even referring to power. The point is that this continuity contradicts itself all the time, yet is still used on the Toei profiles.

But if you want power contradictions, how about Other World Arc base Goku being comparable to Pikkon, who can one-shot Super-Perfect Cell, but Toeiverse Fat Buu, who is much stronger than base Goku, couldn't one-shot Toeiverse Dabura, who is relative to Cell?
 
Well all the movies have stories that have nothing to do with the Canon stories Dabura is Far above Cell

Gohan: "…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn't seem like so much so that there's nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…" Gohan states that he might be able to "do something" against Boo if he "puts out all of his true power". Maning it's not even certain that he could defeat Boo if he recovered his old angry power.

Dabra: "I don't know why, but it seems we failed…I thought [Boo] had finally appeared, but it's just some stupid-looking raw garbage, without brains or power…" The same Boo's power is considered nothing but garbage by Dabura.

Boo has to "power up explosively" before attacking Dabura, which suggests Dabura's assessment was correct:

Gohan: "It-it rose…Majin Boo's ki rose explosively…He's str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…"

And Buu was literally playing around with him, the entire fight was him Making Dabura blind then one shooting him with a single kick.
 
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