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Solaris Speed Downgrade

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@Shadow Definition of Void = a completely empty space, so no I didn't nitpick what you just claimed in this argument to me. Implying that they're in a vacuum of space would refer to them being in outer space, which is also not true b/c of time traveling.

Of course it was, the light is where Time is being compressed as a singularity & the location of Solaris, and isn't it strange that all 3 Super Hedgehogs somehow are heading to the same direction and the exact same place, especially when 2 of them are supposed to split up by traveling through their respective time portals first? Also, Eggman was referring to the idea of defeating Solaris in the present time period only, which is pointless because Solaris also exists in the other 2 and doesn't really disprove my point.

Solaris can't leave the compressed timeline Shadow, that's what it being "anchored" to their dimension means and the only way to maintain his form. Exactly, it just proves my point further of what I'm explaining to you on how Solaris was staying put in the universe. That's the problem there, he isn't moving through time within timeline because he already is the "time" of the timeline and his sheer size, which would give him infinite movement speed since he can move his entire body instantaneously through space due to his higher-dimensionalilty but not immeasurable because he's clearly stuck in one place.

Once again, "Immeasurable" part applies to only Solaris reaction, combat and attack speed & makes more sense for him to have and to be given a rating that says "Infinite with Immeasurable..." you get the point.
 
That's typically because they're not physically 3D while they're AP and dura are. This is not the case with Solaris, it is a higher dimensional entity in physicality as well.
 
@Magi Hussie A completely empty space as in you don't see any other celestial objects, but it's made clear that the battle takes place within Sonic's universe, just across different points in time.

The light is from Solaris himself as that's what his body is composed of. Time portals? You're making that up, the hedgehogs never used any portals when they fought Solaris.

Knuckles: We've got no time to waste. We've got to defeat it now!

Eggman: No, it is a transcendent life form that exists in the past, present, and future. Defeating it here, now would do nothing.

Silver: No. I won't give up, there has to be a way. If you say it exists in the past, present, and future, I'll destroy them all at once."

Why would they attack across all time periods if it was all compressed into a singularity? Do you see how what you're saying is not consistent with the narrative?

If Solaris was the timeline itself then he would simply be omnipresent. He's not, Solaris is shown to externally appear as being the size of a building. But since he exists in all points in time and any move he makes simultaneously would pass through all points in time, he's all around immeasurable.
 
@ShadowWarrior You may not see them in the environment they're in but they still exist in the universe. Other than that, it's not really relevant to the rest of the stuff being mentioned right now.

Shadow, we have seen Shadow using a chaos emerald to create a time portal (you should really know how they work, its time travel but more self-explanatory) to the past so him and Silver can leave the future in time so they don't cause a potential time paradox as shown in specific cutscene from the game. The next thing you said about the "the hedgehogs never used any portals when they fought Solaris," yeah...that's exactly what I just said earlier.

Compressing Time doesn't prevent them from time traveling while still occupying the same space and the 3 Super Hedgehogs destroyed him from 3 time periods while being at the space place, at the same dimension where Solaris is "anchored" to the timeline and did this without being shown to use time portals to get to him (which is what 2 of them are suppose to use to arrive in the time periods to deal with the 2 other versions of Solaris, not during the actual fight but they didn't) while still mananging to get the job done nonetheless. Speaking of which, if these 3 Super Hedgehogs were all in 3 different time periods and the timeline wasn't compressed to a singularity, then how are they somehow able to talk to each other? Thar's literally impossible Shadow.

No, Solaris isn't the timeline, he's the "time" of the timeline, as in where time exists, Solaris exists but that is not to be confused with Omnipresence. That's just a perspective from a distance but Solaris is much larger than that as a higher-dimensional being would be. Immeasurable in reaction, combat and attack speed, yes but not movment speed. Movement speed doesn't have to be auto-equal to any other speed ratings as combat & reaction speed tends to be higher than that in fiction.
 
@PlozAlcachaz Usually when you're a legit 4-D being, you would be able to automatically have Omnipresence by being one with the space-time (in most cases, the character's range is apparently limited to only 1 space-time continuum/timeline), which also include the entire space of the universe you're in due to sheer size. This would also give the character infinite speed but not Immeasurable speed because the character occupies all of space and they need to leave the timeline/space-time they embody for it to be Immeasurable, which their Universal+ Omnipresence unfortunately cannot allow them to do.

Another thing to point out is characters being only stated to just Nigh-Omnipresence by existing in all 3 time periods but not in space (this scenario doesn't include Solaris), well...considering its a concept by itself and not a physical dimension, unless stated to be also higher-dimensional (like Solaris was stated to be, so he's fine), then that probably wouldn't make the character physically 4-D by default with that alone.
 
So have you reached an agreement about what should be done now?
 
@Antvasima Not sure yet.

The speed rating that I'm currently proposing is "Infinite with Immeasurable reaction, combat and attack speed. Nigh-Omnipresence throughout time" for Solaris.
 
Antvasima said:
So have you reached an agreement about what should be done now?
Click to expand...
No, though everyone else except Magi agree on keeping the ranting but changing the outdated description
 
Okay.

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
@Magi Hussie Yes, they're still in the universe. That's what I was saying.

I'm not talking about what the characters were doing earlier in the game in their base forms. They did not use time portals in the Solaris fight, nor would they need to use them when they have immeasurable speed in their super forms.

Solaris is one being across all time periods, he doesn't have different "versions" of himself. As for how the hedgehogs can talk to each other across different time periods, well what allowed them to fight Solaris across different time periods? A simple answer that doesn't require making up an explanation, immeasurable speed. If they can freely move across different time periods, then it's no more difficult for them to talk while doing so.

Higher-dimensional beings don't have to appear externally as being that large, Solaris's core is only slightly larger than Sonic when he rams into it. Movement speed doesn't have to equal other speeds, but anything Solaris does would have immeasurable speed since he'd be doing it in all time periods at once.
 
@Shadow Yes, I know they didn't use time portals to arrive to Solaris nor they used them during the fight, which is why I pointed that out.

You know how Temporal Permanence works, if his present self is destroyed, his past and future selves will still exist and take his present self's place. The main reason why that's possible because all 3 time periods are simultaneously existing in 1 place along with Solaris. Basically, since Solaris is anchored to a singular location in their universe, so will all 3 time periods that makes up the "time" (which Solaris now embodies) in the timeline in the form of a singularity, which creates an infinite time dimension.

As for Higher-dimensionality, it depends but yeah, not always. Solaris would of had Immeasurable movement speed if it wasn't for the fact that:

  • Solaris can't travel between timelines/other time dimensions
  • Solaris is unable to have a movement speed rating higher than Infinite due to his Nigh-Omnipresence that only extends throughout a singular timeline
  • Solaris can't leave the timeline as not only he embodies the "time" of said timeline but he's also anchored to it, which auto-invalidates Immeasurable movement speed
  • Solaris Higher-Dimensionality alone invalidates his Immeasurable movement speed regardless of any argument you can say to prove that it applies to that speed rating otherwise
  • Solaris exists in all time periods, so movement speed cannot be factored for that and the only possible speed ratings that Solaris can scale with this is Reaction, Combat and Attack Speed.
 
@Magi Hussie Not necessarily. Solaris due to his higher-dimensionality is what allows him to exist in all time periods at once. Solaris isn't an embodiment of time, he has the power to control it and isn't bound by it.

  • Traveling to other universes isn't a requirement of immeasurable speed, just movement beyond linear time, although the latter tends to allow the former.
  • The responses below explain why this point is wrong.
  • It was not really elaborated on why Solaris was anchored, but most likely the armor had something to do with it, however that was only during Phase 1. Solaris in Phase 2 is not anchored.
  • Higher-dimensionality invalides immeasurable movement speed? What? If anything, that in fact supports it.
  • It can. Speed is defined by distance/time. If Solaris say, moved 20 feet, he would've made that distance before he even started moving due to simultaneously moving in all time periods. If time cannot be defined, then the speed is immeasurable.
 
@ShadowWarror I meant the "time" of the current timeline he's in, not the "time" of the entire multiverse, which Solaris is, however, actually bounded to b/c he's already stated to be anchored to a singular dimension.

  • Yeah, moving across timelines/time dimensions is part of the "movement beyond linear time" Shadow.
  • And several of the previous responses mentioned before already explains why its considered to be the case.
  • Solaris wouldn't be in the same location anymore if it didn't still show him being stuck there regardless of what happens to his armor.
  • Did Solaris higher-dimensionality stopped him from being anchored to the timeline? No it did not Shadow.
  • That would be infinite movement speed regardless because he's doing it without leaving the space in the timeline when he does this and Solaris performing & preparing quick attacks in all time periods (which doesn't require you to move your entire body in order to do this) =/= Solaris physically moving his entire body to travel through time in all time periods to attack (which he can't, because he's already in all of the time periods) in the timeline as that wouldn't actually change this speed rating due to his sheer size.
However, since he was able to perform and prepare quick reactions to defend himself, then that's only Reaction & Combat Speed specifically while being able to project range attacks that can hit any of the Super Hedgehogs this way is Attack Speed.
 
I personally don't agree with Solaris being Immeasruable. Sorry if I'm necroing by accident, I just felt like giving my thoughts on the issue here.

Statements supporting infinite/immeasurable/omnipresent are clearly not the case given what we see. Even then, maybe they were referring to when Solaris reached it's peak, because it was going to consume all timelines but it wasn't doing so during the fight. They also fought what Eggman called a "sign" of a super-dimensional being and the first phase focused on the anchors keeping it in their dimension or whatever, so what Sonic and co. actually fought isn't and wasn't the actual Solaris going by other statements as well.

But that's just me. If you disagree, then that's fine, just please do it respectfully.
 
You literaly said a big wall of nothing, what the hell? Solaris being a 4th dimensional being is already enough for immesurable, it wasn't """"the actual Solaris"""""", what the hell does this even mean? It obviously was the actual Solaris, not a avatar or other headcanons, and he being anchored means nothing to reaction speed
 
Maverick Zero X said:
Just gonna ignore the "he was hit by rocks" point altogether.

Solaris' Immeasurable speed doesn't come from existing in a timeless void (or that shouldn't be a justification on the profile, at least).

Speed: "Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.)"

By existing in the past, present and future, I believe Solaris would be warranted Immeasurable speed by default going by the information on the speed page.
Click to expand...
Unless this was changed it still is, I don't care about your other franchises
 
The real cal howard said:
" Solaris being a 4th dimensional being is already enough for immesurable"

Actually, no longer the case.
Click to expand...
Also, isn't the site having new policies on Immeasurable speed and other things like that? From what I hear, they are doing revisions on the standards of Infinite and Immeasurable speed from what I've been hearing from my friends on here.
 
Sooooooooooooooooooooo, why would someone like Dialga not be granted this? Besides ShadowWarrior's headcanon that it is "bound by time"
 
AgentJojoBerserk said:
The real cal howard said:
" Solaris being a 4th dimensional being is already enough for immesurable"

Actually, no longer the case.
Click to expand...
Also, isn't the site having new policies on Immeasurable speed and other things like that? From what I hear, they are doing revisions on the standards of Infinite and Immeasurable speed from what I've been hearing from my friends on here.
Click to expand...
I knew about infinite but not immeasurable.
 
>25D

>Only 5-A

Read the last post, again, stop arguing with other characters

Stop trying to invalidate legitimate arguments
 
No, those aren't arguments, nobody actualy adressed the post I quoted, instead just whining about how those diferent characters aren't immesurable, and today I have no patience for that

You people upgrade them to immesurable when the forum move ends, comparassions should support your argument, not be them
 
Tenor-1pop.gif
 
It's not like we can upgrade them now because the forum move was delayed. We're not whining here. We're calling out the double standards of immeasurable speed as a whole.
 
No, those aren't double standards, you are listing random characters without the context behind them

People, read the post I quoted, then just counter it, listing why [character you like] should be immesurable isn't a argument, it is whining, use that to support your argument, not be your argument
 
Context huh? Dialga's avatars all have the same consciousness as the original Dialga who is omnipresent across all of time. Dialga's avatars exists within every timeline in every single moment of time that passes. Considering Palkia was able to fight one of Dialga's avatars, this should grant Palkia and Dialga immeasurable speed. Arceus should also have this speed tier due to it being superior to dialga in every way. Idk about the Mesprit, Azelf and Uxie or Giratina.
 
ChocomilkAlex said:
Context huh? Dialga's avatars all have the same consciousness as the original Dialga who is omnipresent across all of time. Dialga's avatars exists within every timeline in every single moment of time that passes. Considering Palkia was able to fight one of Dialga's avatars, this should grant Palkia and Dialga immeasurable speed. Arceus should also have this speed tier due to it being superior to dialga in every way. Idk about the Mesprit, Azelf and Uxie or Giratina.
Click to expand...
Upgrade Dialga then, it's very obvious you also believe it to be immesurable as well, none of this actualy debunks immesurable Solaris
 
Theuser789 said:
You literaly said a big wall of nothing, what the hell? Solaris being a 4th dimensional being is already enough for immesurable, it wasn't """"the actual Solaris"""""", what the hell does this even mean? It obviously was the actual Solaris, not a avatar or other headcanons, and he being anchored means nothing to reaction speed
Click to expand...
I know this is an point, but I feel this needs to be brought up.

To quote Commander Ghost:

"Dude, you're Allowed to Counter his Points and Attempt to Debunk them however that Gives you no Reason to be Negative Towards him just because you think he has the "Wrong" interpretations of things, that's Par for the Course of Debating; Everyone is going to have Different Interpretations that doesn't give you the right to act like what you're saying is Fact when you say Wrong and be Condescending and Quite Frankly Assholish."

I copy and pasted that, yes, but regarless, I couldn't have said it better.
 
Who? Also I did nothing of that, honestely you keeping saying that about me every time is getting anoying, I am not going to talk with you like we are best friends or something
 
First of all, Ghost's quote was talking in terms of users disrespecting other DBs blindly and acting as if your interpretation is objective. The DBF and VBW are very different. One is going toward lax fanon writing while the other is appealing as an indexing wiki based off the majority view. User being slightly aggressive is for Choco to stay on topic and deliver new points. Not once has he done anything like insulting.

A lot of the points being brought up are in relation to Dialga is the problem. Dialga has little to do with this discussion, it should be moved to its own CRT to revise it if it's the one not being measured correctly.
 
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