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Space Survival

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Hypertornado099

Hypertornado099

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Introduction

The purpose of this thread is to confirm the standards on whether or not one should get a resistance to Extreme Cold for surviving in space

A thread was made recently discussing why surviving in space doesn't grant Extreme Cold resistance anymore. It was discussed that DontTalkDT made the reason 2 years ago; since space is a vacuum and has no matter, conduction and convection don't occur, so heat can't really be transferred from your body to the surroundings since there is nothing to lose heat to. This also means that the vacuum of space is not actually cold, it doesn't even have a temperature because temperature is a measurement of how fast particles of matter are moving.

In that thread however, it was discussed that you can lose heat by giving off infrared radiation in space, or gain heat from sunlight if you are close enough to a star. Though space is almost always empty, the heat/radiation from a star can travel more than 93 million kilometres, so in fiction, it would be pretty common for a "survives in space" feat to occur close enough to a star to feel its radiation.

About Radiation

The main question here is how long should you survive in the vacuum of space, without being exposed to a star's radiation in order to get a proper resistance to Extreme Cold? I found an article written by Paul M Sutter, an astrophysicist that states it could take 12 hours to freeze in space, though its likely you will never freeze if you are getting exposed to sunlight

The exact timing depends on a lot of factors, including body composition, skin color, if you had a big dinner before the surprise ejection event, what your heart rate is like, if you're in sunlight, and so on. And the answer comes out to anywhere from about a dozen hours (if you're unlucky) to never (if you're getting cooked by sunlight).
Click to expand...

There are a massive number of profiles that have Extreme Cold resistance for surviving in space despite the reasoning being rejected in 2021 (though I cannot find the CRT which made this new standard, here are some threads from 2021 talking about it). You can click random page on the wiki and it wouldn't take too long to be redirected to a page with it,it took me less than 2 minutes to find one from this obscure verse

However, DontTalk has a concern about giving people resistance to Extreme Cold even for losing heat through radiation in space he pointed out here and here

Yeah, so, you can freeze in space but it requires you to not be close to a star and takes a long time. So only characters that are in deep space for long could even be affected.

And then you get the problem that our body generates heat on its own to counteract freezing. Where a normal person might freeze, a superhuman might just keep their heat generation going to not do that.

Anyway, the point is that it's like giving a superhero cold resistance for staying outside in -2°C in their skimpy outfit. Or give a fish cold resistance for living in the ocean. If you want to do it at all, it is pretty minor resistance.
Click to expand...
Anyway, it's important to note that the resistance will be so minor that it will never be effective against basically any ice attack ever. And profiles should reflect that. (Especially if we start listing it for fish)
Click to expand...
As I said earlier, its pretty common in fiction for people with feats of surviving in space to be exposed to sunlight at the time, and this resistance should only be granted to people who are deep in space, really far from any star. Its quite difficult to prove that feats of MFTL interstellar travel would count for this too, because almost every interstellar travel feat involves the character travelling to another planet within a solar system, and they probably didn't spend at least a dozen hours anyways.

Conclusion

There are a 2 options we have for this that I need you to vote for

  • First Option: Extreme Cold resistance for being in space should be nuked unless there is solid evidence the character survives in the vacuum of space while also being not affected by sunlight, and for at least 12 hours(so like 90% of characters who have it should get it removed)
    • If you agree with this, you should mention if you think it should be a minor resistance or full resistance because of DontTalk's explanation here
  • Second Option: There should be no resistance to Extreme Cold for surviving in space at all (for these reasons maybe, unless you have your own)
  • Third Option: Surviving in space for a much shorter amount of time should still count as a resistance to Extreme Cold and they shouldn't be nuked from most profiles.
 
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For the record, this has nothing to do with other resistances you can get from surviving in space like pressure or radiation, but that may come in a later thread
 
Hypertornado099 said:
For the record, this has nothing to do with other resistances you can get from surviving in space like pressure or radiation, but that may come in a later thread
Click to expand...
Updating the Superhuman Physical Characteristics page to deal with Low Atmospheric Pressure and various other stuff seems like a better option to me.

Also, option 2, same stance as DT regarding extreme cold resistance.

And shouldn't this be a staff thread cause it's a wiki wide proposal?
 
RoTt35 said:
What if a verse treats space freezing as almost instantaneous and even near a star?
Click to expand...
In those two instances, they definitely are shown dying with the latter (Rip Yondu) legitimately dying, but yeah, I think we can make a exception to the verses that actually shown the characters being frozen instantly in outer space and actually shown to resist it. Also doesn’t help that the second video shown Peter need the equipment to survive outer space.

However, I don’t think it is the norm as I honestly don’t remember a lot of verses that actually does that a lot so by default it should been assume it will take a decent amount of time since the radiation actually does the cooling/freezing.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I still agree more with DontTalkDT.
Click to expand...
Which option though?
DarkDragonMedeus said:
There are places like that on the Earth's stratosphere; I know the 1st Iron Man movie has that as a plot point. But it's the thin air rather than pure outer space.
Click to expand...
“

Mesosphere​

Above the stratosphere is the mesosphere. It extends upward to a height of about 85 km (53 miles) above our planet. Most meteors burn up in the mesosphere. Unlike the stratosphere, temperatures once again grow colder as you rise up through the mesosphere. The coldest temperatures in Earth's atmosphere, about -90° C (-130° F), are found near the top of this layer. The air in the mesosphere is far too thin to breathe (the air pressure at the bottom of the layer is well below 1% of the pressure at sea level and continues dropping as you go higher).”

Layers of Earth's Atmosphere | Center for Science Education

Layers of Earth's atmosphere: troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere and exosphere.
scied.ucar.edu scied.ucar.edu

It is not as extreme as Outer Space in terms of coldness (coldness from radiation more specifically) .

 
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What is the difference between that and self-sustenance type 1? Seems to me a redundant addition, except if there are clear objective, distinct practicalities.
 
ImmortalDread said:
What is the difference between that and self-sustenance type 1? Seems to me a redundant addition, except if there are clear objective, distinct practicalities.
Click to expand...
The only difference I can think of is that Self Sustenance is for surviving without oxygen indefinitely, not something everyone who survives in space has, and not everyone with Self Sustenance can survive the other conditions of space
 
ImmortalDread said:
What is the difference between that and self-sustenance type 1? Seems to me a redundant addition, except if there are clear objective, distinct practicalities.
Click to expand...
Self-sustenance type 1 is about being able to survive without needing to breathe. That would be one part of space survival, but not the whole thing.

In addition to that it would include:
  1. A resistance to low pressure environments (near vacuums). For a normal human the fluids on the bodies surface would boil away and various things would probably rupture. Your lungs would probably take damage and stuff.
  2. A resistance to cold (if the character travels through deep space for long). This in particular requires some explanation. Many people think it would be high level cold resistance as deep space is close to absolute zero. However, due to the lack of heat transfer via conduction and convection, the actual heat loss is rather minor. Hence the cold resistance in turn is very minor (and could be achieved through various means, like the body producing slightly more body heat than that of a normal person). It is minor enough that most fictional cold attacks would easily overcome it. Putting explanations regarding that on a single page that everyone then links is easier than enforcing that every profile, which lists cold resistance for space reasons, gives the appropriate explanation on the profile.
  3. Probably resistance to space radiation?
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Radiation from space has long term effects. Surviving in space is barely even a resistance, it probably wouldn't even be one if you spend less than an hour in it
Click to expand...
In that same article being used, it also brought up specific circumstances where you do received a large dose of radiation that is dangerous for you as well.

Also, I did brought up “the large amount of radiation” in a hesitant manner.

Not to mention there are other factors.

“On Earth, humans are safe from this harm. Earth’s protective magnetic bubble, called the magnetosphere, deflects most solar particles. The atmosphere also quells any particles that do make it through. The International Space Station cruises through low-Earth orbit, within Earth’s protection, and the station’s hull helps shield crew members from radiation too.



But beyond Earth’s magnetic reach, human explorers can face the harsh radiation of space.



“The danger of radiation is always present, whether you’re in orbit, in transit, or on a planetary surface,” said Ruthan Lewis, a Goddard architect and engineer for NASA’s human spaceflight program. “From mitigation techniques to protection and enclosures, we’re considering this in every environment astronauts will be in.”

www.nasa.gov

How NASA Will Protect Astronauts From Space Radiation at the Moon

Space radiation is a critical factor for astronaut safety as they venture to the Moon. NASA is exploring a variety of techniques and technology to mitigate different types of radiation during space travel.
www.nasa.gov www.nasa.gov
 
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HammerStrikes219 said:
In that same article being used, it also brought up specific circumstances where you do received a large dose of radiation that is dangerous for you as well.

Also, I did brought up “the large amount of radiation” in a hesitant manner.

Not to mention there are other factors.

“On Earth, humans are safe from this harm. Earth’s protective magnetic bubble, called the magnetosphere, deflects most solar particles. The atmosphere also quells any particles that do make it through. The International Space Station cruises through low-Earth orbit, within Earth’s protection, and the station’s hull helps shield crew members from radiation too.



But beyond Earth’s magnetic reach, human explorers can face the harsh radiation of space.



“The danger of radiation is always present, whether you’re in orbit, in transit, or on a planetary surface,” said Ruthan Lewis, a Goddard architect and engineer for NASA’s human spaceflight program. “From mitigation techniques to protection and enclosures, we’re considering this in every environment astronauts will be in.”

www.nasa.gov

How NASA Will Protect Astronauts From Space Radiation at the Moon

Space radiation is a critical factor for astronaut safety as they venture to the Moon. NASA is exploring a variety of techniques and technology to mitigate different types of radiation during space travel.
www.nasa.gov www.nasa.gov
Click to expand...
I never said it wasn't dangerous, just that it only has long term effects
 
A new page is not needed, just add another key to self sustenance.
Surviving underwater too should have it's own type in self-sustenance. The wiki has too many redundant pages already.
 
PrinceofPein said:
A new page is not needed, just add another key to self sustenance.
Surviving underwater too should have it's own type in self-sustenance. The wiki has too many redundant pages already.
Click to expand...
Surviving in space grants resistances that are not related to self sustenance though
 
Hypertornado099 said:
I never said it wasn't dangerous, just that it only has long term effects
Click to expand...
That wasn’t the point. The point is they are still exposed to radiation, but with protection. Space suits and all other ways to reduce the amount of radiation they receive.

Also I will inform some staff to get their opinion on the matter
 
I've been asked to provide input here.

I quite like DT's suggestion of Space Survival being added as an ability. Surviving without any kind of support in space is a common power in fiction, yet it entails a lot of independent things simultaneously. DT elaborated on this point earlier, but a person who was capable of surviving for an extended period in space would have to account for factors like being able to survive in a low-pressure environment, large temperature variance, and radiation. Rather than splitting up all the factors that surviving in space entails into a wide range of abilities for every relevant profile, having one page for the general ability to survive in space would be quite handy.
 
That space survival page might need types or tiers. Someone could survive in space because they can hold their breath for an hour, or they could be able to survive the lack of oxygen indefinitely, say by somehow breathing in space. One is an extended ability to hold one's breath, other is an entirely different ability.
 
It's also important how each franchise treats a character being launched into space. If the concern with freezing over a short amount of time is something the narrative brings attention to (example: Kars in JJBA), it would be fair to give them resistance even if it makes no sense irl.

But for application of a default and assumed resistance, first option aligns best with the real way of things I feel.
 
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