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So, like this?
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Stamina: A veritable clustertruck
- Thread starter Crabwhale
- Start date
- Status
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Jesus christ. Yea that works alright
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I fully agree with Armorchompy, DDM, and Damage.
I think we should prioritize descriptions and actual feats over these arbitrary, usually meaningless, labels. If not that, then at the very least simplify and standardize them like others have suggested, while still prioritizing feats and descriptions.
I also fully agree with expanding the stamina page itself with explanations for different kinds of stamina (physical, mental, injury tolerance, etc).
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Yeah, that's the sort of feat I'm talking about.
We can just say 'examples of such shows of stamina would be Andy Bowen and Jack Burke's 7-hour long boxing match and the nearly-week long records of ultramarathon winners'.
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I believe some bit of research should be performed about that match and describe the feat accordingly, because I'm pretty sure they didn't go on punching each other for 7 hours straight non-stop.
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I think just saying seven-hour fight is a little bit wrong though, they definitely had some pauses in-between considering how boxing works, you get little moments to breathe between rounds, right? Hell, if we go by the wikipedia page, "The fight lasted 110 rounds over seven hours and 19 minutes (each round lasting three minutes)", since that's a total of 439 minutes, they had a total of 109 minutes to rest, which is basically a fourth of the total time.
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Of course. '110-round boxing match', then
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That's good. Maybe do note the critical conditions they were in though, if possible.
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"Examples would include the boxing match between Andy Bowen and Jack Burke, which took 110 rounds and resulted in Burke breaking both of his hands. As impressive as this is, it should be noted that they were both exhausted and far too weary to fight competently quite a bit before it actually ended, and they weren't even throwing punches by the 105th."
This would still make actually fighting competently for several hours probably Superhuman, given the context of this
This would still make actually fighting competently for several hours probably Superhuman, given the context of this
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- Thread starter
- #171
Boxing matches have a one minute break between rounds yes. However I don't think this break takes away from the sheer insanity of the feat. Boxers nowadays are incredibly notable if they last the full 12 round timer, known as "going the distance". And sure, a good chunk of that is because of harder punching power and boxing gloves allowing for more ferocious hits, but nonetheless, it is an absurd feat.
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It's pretty basic so I can add it if there's no problems.
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BTW, how do we differ between Character A with Superhuman stamina that can fight over 10 hours non-stop, versus Character B with Superhuman stamina that can last centuries in constant combat before tiring? Surely one must realize just how badly Character A is outlasted here. Superhuman stamina does generalize a bit if I do say so myself.
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Also you could add for Peak Human that Dean Karnazes could run for over 80 hours without sleep (But this is not for all-out sprint, one would tire out pretty damn quickly if they tried running at 45 km/h for more than a few dozen seconds) and that the current record for surviving without food or drink is 18 days
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This is why you specify on the character page.
Gotcha, gotcha. Also this should be listed on Peak Human Physical Characteristics actually, rather than Stamina. We can just link it.
Gotcha, gotcha. Also this should be listed on Peak Human Physical Characteristics actually, rather than Stamina. We can just link it.
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Code:
*[[wikipedia:Andy Bowen|Andy Bowen]] and [[wikipedia:Jack Burke (boxer)|Jack Burke]] (Their boxing match back in 1893 lasted 110 rounds and resulted in Burke breaking both of his hands, though they were not fighting competently for the entire time; by the 105th round they weren't even throwing punches anymore)
*[[wikipedia:Dean Karnazes|Dean Karnazes]] (He ran 560 kilometers in 80 hours without any sleep)
*[[wikipedia:Andreas Mihavecz|Andreas Mihavecz]] (He survived 18 days with no food and very minimal water)Any complaints with this being added to the Peak Human Physical Characteristics page?
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Yeah but even then, I still feel it's a bit too generalized.
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It has to be, the level is so general and vague and there's so much room for different levels in different stamina varieties there. The more specific we get, the more arbitrary it is; this is about as unarbitrary as it can get.
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- Thread starter
- #180
No complaints.
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Oh it's still insane, not taking away from that, but the distinction should still be made, I don't think it's humanly possible to fight that long without any interruptions.
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Or, again, just for the record, to fight competently for that long even with interruptions.
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None at all.
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Yeah, I'll start changing my characters Stamina Sections now
Shouldn't need a CRT, since it literally just changes a bunch of "High" and "Very Highs" to Superhuman
Shouldn't need a CRT, since it literally just changes a bunch of "High" and "Very Highs" to Superhuman
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Done.
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Hello, was asked to comment on here by Saman.
I'm essentially neutral on the naming conventions and decisions, as I think the matter is ambiguous enough to not have a conclusively right or wrong answer. I like the idea of a rather minimalist list of names or even their removal and just putting relevant feats, as, truly, stamina can't be really defined - in a few points, it is tougher to determine than intelligence. The emphasis should be put on the actual feats, which someone in this thread, I forgot whose name it was, made a very valuable point about how ample we consider stamina to be.
Some pointers I do wish to make, which can potentially help setting up a stamina page and to always keep in mind:
I'm essentially neutral on the naming conventions and decisions, as I think the matter is ambiguous enough to not have a conclusively right or wrong answer. I like the idea of a rather minimalist list of names or even their removal and just putting relevant feats, as, truly, stamina can't be really defined - in a few points, it is tougher to determine than intelligence. The emphasis should be put on the actual feats, which someone in this thread, I forgot whose name it was, made a very valuable point about how ample we consider stamina to be.
Some pointers I do wish to make, which can potentially help setting up a stamina page and to always keep in mind:
- As said commentator mentioned before, we consider many types of feats as stamina. Long-term, continuous exhertion of repeated movements; short, explosive bursts of high-intensity movements; capability to persist when wounded; staying for long periods of time without, say, food or sleep; and probably a few other factors that I don't remember at the moment. What is interesting to think about is that real life is, naturally, way too complex to give a straight answer if that is right or wrong, but mostly, said factors are correct, actually, and they do overlap. Managing to do anything while already tired implies that even in a low-energy state, you can perform stamina feats. Being wounded is incredibly detrimental to stamina, a point which I'll get to in the next paragraph. Food and sleep are also very heavy proponents in stamina. However, we all need to keep in mind that how much those factors influence each person is different, and not just a bit. With the right biology, training and methodology, any of these factors can be made more or less important, even for the same kind of exhertion.
Let's compare long-term, small intensity exhertion: And, for that, we will get a marathon runner and a professional dancer. Both are fully capable of engaging their own activities for long periods of time, dozens of minutes, if not a few hours at a time. However, it would be erroneous to assume that they would have the same stamina to do each other's activities; while they would certainly do far better than the average person, (as they are not only used to physical exercise, but they both are long-term exhertion) it is doubtful that, unless there is some other factor, they would match each other's stamina in said activity. And it's not only the skill to perform said activity while conserving energy, but also the fact that their very muscles are not used to the specific movements they attempt to do. From anecdotal experience, I've jogged with amateur runners, that had started to run quite recently at the time, while I had been practicing boxing, and I ocasionally did roadworks and sprinting, something like once or twice a week. Despite me doing the exact same thing that he did, the guy still performed far better. I have no doubt that he wouldn't outlast me, even purely stamina-wise, in most of the boxing exercises I engaged, but in running? He was already better than I - because his muscles were way more used to the kind of effort he did. While I ran once or twice a week, he was running almost every day and for significantly longer stretches of time. In general, I'd say my stamina was better than his, but for running? No way.
And this is before attempting to equate different ways of wasting energy, such, as previously commented by someone, the mental taxation of working in a problem for long periods of time, merely waiting for something to happen for a few days at a time, about how much a magic spell costs in energy requirements in any given fictional universe...
- My second point is way more relevant to our purposes. Fighting is an entirely different beast from other forms of exhertions, and getting wounded is an exponential factor for getting tired faster. Again, anecdotal experience, but no worries, I'll back it up with actual links: 2-3 weeks ago, I was training for a small boxing event, my first public fight. It was a simple, three-rounds bout, and with my own coach, so he wasn't going to go out of his way to pummel me down. To prepare for that, I engaged in one month of excruciating training, often going 15 to 20 rounds of hard exercise, five times a week. When it came to the match itself, I barely, barely could endure three rounds, and that was with a coach that flowed with my rhythm, with breaks and in a boxing match, with gloves, and the worst wounds I got from it were a few small bruises, and if that was armed, it would've been so much worse.
And that kind of effort is actually small compared to what professional fighters go through to prepare themselves. John McGlothlin wrote a short text about Rocky Marciano and a little about the kind of training that he had to go through to fight 15 rounds, while tanking hits all the time. Many other masters in martial arts trained dimilarly roughly to fight for long periods of time, as I've seen while studying about Muay Thai and Karate practicioners. Point is that the amount of conditioning it takes for someone to fight even for short periods of time is absolutely immense. Someone going through, what, ten, twenty rounds of exercise isn't guaranteed to last three rounds of fighting very well.
- And, lastly, an important point I wanted to make, which is related to what I commented about people managing to have greater or smaller reserves of energy for specific things. Stamina is such a complex thing to analyse that a very good example I like to bring up is Demonbane, from the eponymous visual novel. Demonbane is a giant mecha that is fueled by an engine called the Cor Leonis, and the Cor Leonis can supply it with an unlimited amount of energy, as it infinitely generates energy. But there's a catch - it infinitely generates energy, but continuously, and there's an upper limit of "maximum" energy it can have at any given time. Demonbane can waste its entire energy in an attack. Of course, it starts to regenerate extremely quickly right after, and for rather mundane movement, such as wealking, it essentially has limitless energy.
At the same time, even without the enegine, it has quite decent energy feats - but loses its capability to generate energy. And more to the point, damage can seriously compromise its energy output, and not merely because it would take more energy to perform simple actions or things its bodily structure out otherwise help out, but simply because it may disconnect and isolate circuits, outright making it impossible for energy to flow there. So, we have a being who has Superhuman energy limit in the strictest sense, but it can regenerate itself so quickly that it is essentially limitless for most scenarios and, even in extremely high intensity, it would require only short breaks/moments of lower intensity to go back at it, but at the same time, it takes wounds badly - not because of any sort of pain/wound tolerance, as a robot, it lacks many of a human's wasteful energy moments when fighting, and it also lacks the capability to feel pain or receive serious injury, thanks to redundant systems and its "organs" being inherently different than ours. However, if specific circuits are cut, even if it had truly Infinite energy, it would stop flowing to that specific limb.
See? I just made a case that, while I think we'd classify as Superhuman, goes completely against the norm, and would require a lot of attention of however read the profile to understand well how to treat its stamina. And it is a single example, I could provide more.
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I also think that this is a good idea. Thank you for the help.
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Oh, another point I was asked to clarify was about the 110-round boxing fight, and how applicable that would be for stamina. I couldn't find any film of the fight, so take my opinion here with a grain of salt.
This article summarizes the situation pretty well. According to people watching the fight, at some point of the match, it wasn't really a fight anymore. One of the boxers broke his hands and both were too tired to really use their boxing talents. The timeframe isn't specified, but I believe that it happened rather soon; by the 100's, they were just circling each other, doing absolutely nothing otherwise.
Two things to say about that:
First, from my personal experience in boxing and from studying it, I'd say that the absolute hard limit for someone to fight with any amount of decency in their techniques is 20, maybe 30 rounds, and that is with someone with incredibly good conditioning, which I guarantee these guys didn't have. Why I say that? Well, with the link I posted before, one of the things I can affirm to you guys is that Rocky Marciano is, quite likely, the best-conditioned fighter in the history of boxing, and he was famous for fighting through 15 rounds with no noticeable loss in performance, unless he got really unlucky in his match-up. Even other exceptionally well-conditioned fighters with a will of iron, like Ali, didn't believe they could fight well after 12 rounds. So, how did these guys fight that long? Well, that's my second point, but I'll already say that I'd bet my left arm that they weren't fighting well by the 20th round.
Secondly, how that came to be? Not only were both fighters extremely motivated for their fights (the belt was on the line, as well as a very considerable amount of money, they were very prideful and their families were depending on them) but there are plenty of techniques to rest and recover a bit during a match. You can fight defensively in a match, clinching and keeping distance in order to stall it, to calm down a bit and rest in a round. Of course, even that is a bit tiring, but much less so than attempting to knock the other one down and score points, and you do relax a bit. Not only that, but they were probably fighting at minimal intensity for most of these rounds. Heck, one of them broke their hands, and I guarantee you that it wasn't because of how strongly he hit his opponent, he most likely slipped his form really badly in a very unfortunate circumstance. After that, I really doubt he would be able to punch or use it in any decent capacity. In fact, his opponent still not winning even with the other having a broken hand should hint at how low the intensity of their fighting was.
So, yeah, it really isn't a stamina feat. I'm amazed by their mental strength and determination, because their tenacity to stay on their feet despite being utterly exhausted is incredible - but they were exhausted, no doubt about it, and 95% of their energy went out by the first 20 rounds.
Fun fact: That fight is what prompted the creation of Queensbury Rules, which limited boxing matches from 12 to 15 rounds.
This article summarizes the situation pretty well. According to people watching the fight, at some point of the match, it wasn't really a fight anymore. One of the boxers broke his hands and both were too tired to really use their boxing talents. The timeframe isn't specified, but I believe that it happened rather soon; by the 100's, they were just circling each other, doing absolutely nothing otherwise.
Two things to say about that:
First, from my personal experience in boxing and from studying it, I'd say that the absolute hard limit for someone to fight with any amount of decency in their techniques is 20, maybe 30 rounds, and that is with someone with incredibly good conditioning, which I guarantee these guys didn't have. Why I say that? Well, with the link I posted before, one of the things I can affirm to you guys is that Rocky Marciano is, quite likely, the best-conditioned fighter in the history of boxing, and he was famous for fighting through 15 rounds with no noticeable loss in performance, unless he got really unlucky in his match-up. Even other exceptionally well-conditioned fighters with a will of iron, like Ali, didn't believe they could fight well after 12 rounds. So, how did these guys fight that long? Well, that's my second point, but I'll already say that I'd bet my left arm that they weren't fighting well by the 20th round.
Secondly, how that came to be? Not only were both fighters extremely motivated for their fights (the belt was on the line, as well as a very considerable amount of money, they were very prideful and their families were depending on them) but there are plenty of techniques to rest and recover a bit during a match. You can fight defensively in a match, clinching and keeping distance in order to stall it, to calm down a bit and rest in a round. Of course, even that is a bit tiring, but much less so than attempting to knock the other one down and score points, and you do relax a bit. Not only that, but they were probably fighting at minimal intensity for most of these rounds. Heck, one of them broke their hands, and I guarantee you that it wasn't because of how strongly he hit his opponent, he most likely slipped his form really badly in a very unfortunate circumstance. After that, I really doubt he would be able to punch or use it in any decent capacity. In fact, his opponent still not winning even with the other having a broken hand should hint at how low the intensity of their fighting was.
So, yeah, it really isn't a stamina feat. I'm amazed by their mental strength and determination, because their tenacity to stay on their feet despite being utterly exhausted is incredible - but they were exhausted, no doubt about it, and 95% of their energy went out by the first 20 rounds.
Fun fact: That fight is what prompted the creation of Queensbury Rules, which limited boxing matches from 12 to 15 rounds.
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This is part of stamina. The page acknowledges that they weren't fighting competently the entire time. To keep on going at all under those conditions is a stamina feat regardless of how competently it was done. Doing it competently just makes the stamina feat better.
The thread is pretty much done.
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We could also add the Rocky Marciano fight in.
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Maybe we could add more endurance feats to the peak human page?
Like the longest time a person has ever held their breath, how much time can a person survive without food and water and such, to better cover whatever can be considered stamina.
Also, what if a character shows Superhuman levels of pain resistance, but just athletic levels of exertion or similar?
Would we differentiate between the two, or just slap "Superhuman"?
Like the longest time a person has ever held their breath, how much time can a person survive without food and water and such, to better cover whatever can be considered stamina.
Also, what if a character shows Superhuman levels of pain resistance, but just athletic levels of exertion or similar?
Would we differentiate between the two, or just slap "Superhuman"?
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This seems like a good idea to me.
Listing the two areas separately seems better to me, much like we encourage our members to do with different types of intelligence.
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- Thread starter
- #194
Point it out on the description of the feat.
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I think something like this should be added to the stamina page as well, to counter-balance the 110-round thing.
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I'm not gonna write the entire explanation but I can just make it more clear
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Well, there's also always "Enhanced" Stamina from the Superpower wiki, which is another level above Peak but still below Superhuman.
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Please read the thread. We are not looking for more levels. It has been agreed that more levels would be a bad thing. Do not suggest the addition of more levels. You have already done so.
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