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I think we should downgrade the existing ratings first, then discuss the scaling.
I think we should downgrade the existing ratings first, then discuss the scaling.
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Who is going to do that
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Are we going to discuss any character scaling issues or is that mostly on the Legends side of things?
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I don't think we're changing much existing scaling in canon though, unless Vader and Palpatine or something like that
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Shouldn't he be not too far off from Palpatine though scaling wise? If feats permit.
Also if we're doing keys for some more main characters we should separate Canon and Legends like Luke Skywalker.
Also if we're doing keys for some more main characters we should separate Canon and Legends like Luke Skywalker.
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- #131
That's a pretty common thing people bring up. But feat-wise, Vader only has evidence showing that Palptine is far more powerful in Lords of the Sith, RoTJ and the 2017 comic-line. There's a couple statements that actually put Vader above Palpatine, but they're vague and wrong to say at the least. The 2020 comic line also frequently implies he's much weaker. In Rebels, Vader was also equal or slightly superior to Ahsoka, yet she could barely deflect a portion of Palpatine's attack without Ezra's help.
They specifically are already separated. I'm planning to get Vader cut off as well.
They specifically are already separated. I'm planning to get Vader cut off as well.
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What @ByAsura said.
In the Greg Pak run of the Vader comics, we see that Palpatine can toy around with TESB Vader with utter ease. That in itself proves that there is a massive gap between them. And this is OT Vader, which is his peak in power.
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Yes I think we hade
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palpatine grows in more power throughout the series, so him fodderizing vader by like, 18 BBY means nothing, since both are like, 10x stronger by ANH, for example. the whole point is that sidious is always stronger than him, no matter the timeline, which is why we need more keys. example being vader thinking that he and luke can beat ANH version of sheev, but once he sees how strong ROTJ sheev, he quits on that plan.
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this last part is actually arguable. iirc there is a statement saying that rebels vader was his peak, because he was mentally stable, unlike in the OT era. he was fully evil, still seeking revenge, still on the hunt for jedi, going on battles all the time. btw, he is like, a good bit above ahsoka. she is supposed to the 3rd or so most skilled jedi ever, and he could outduel her while she had two swords, was much more agile, and was trained by anakin to fight opponents just like him. and she was legit semi fodder to him in the force.
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- #138
Citation needed. In Legends, he definitely grows stronger, but I can't find anything about that in canon.
He says this is Vader in his prime, not at his peak, it's actually a very big difference. The comics also imply that Vader always had this lighter side of himself, at least to some extent, but it only came out in RoTJ.
A citation is also needed for Ahsoka being "semi fodder" to Vader in the force. Dual wielding isn't actually that much more effective IRL or in Star Wars. Kanan, for example, went from being slightly inferior to the Grand Inquisitor to overpowering him with two lightsabers, while Ventress has fought on par with Obi-Wan/Anakin with one or two.
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1- he went from force pushed by vader in the surgery table and having vader block one of his strikes (he was casual, but his casual strikes are maul blitzers) to ragdolling OT vader. seems to be slightly obvious, but im looking for facts on it for u, since we need it anyhow.
2- difference between the two needs to be explained to me, cuz i didnt about this big diff. i would also like something that disproves the usefulness of dual wielding. in legends dual wielding does and has made a difference before, so i would assume that in canon the same might be true. ventress is simply inconsistent. she has decidedly lost to people equal to or below obi wan, but also fought obi wan as an equal many times.
3- there is no citation for ahsoka being semi fodder, but she is pushed around in the force by him at least twice from what i remember. this is an obvious implication of the difference in power when it comes to star wars, tbh.
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Palpatine was very obviously taken off guard by the force wave. He even one-shots Vader with force lightning directly after. It's also worth noting that this is the same Palpatine who fought Yoda, while Vader was slightly weaker than when he was Anakin.
Peak refers to his power, prime refers to his physical and emotional state. In Legends. We're talking canon. That doesn't make her inconsistent, it means that fighting techniques vary in effectiveness, which is proven when Obi-Wan and Anakin also go through the same "inconsistencies".
Force pushing someone doesn't make them stronger. By this logic, Ahsoka is superior to Vader.
Peak refers to his power, prime refers to his physical and emotional state. In Legends. We're talking canon. That doesn't make her inconsistent, it means that fighting techniques vary in effectiveness, which is proven when Obi-Wan and Anakin also go through the same "inconsistencies".
Force pushing someone doesn't make them stronger. By this logic, Ahsoka is superior to Vader.
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Okey that is really good infomantion
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exatcly, a very weakened vader could do something that literally only yoda has ever done before, while a much stronger vader got shat on by a future palpatine. this is about as obvious as it gets.
no, it makes her inconsistent, but if u wanna disagree, i wont argue.
he did it like, 3 times or so, and had her almost knocked out all 3 of them. the difference is very clear.
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So you just missed the part where he was off guard and trying to manipulate Vader?
I do disagree, because different fighting techniques do work differently against different opponents.
This is very, very out of context. He did it once, and it pushed Ahsoka off a massive height.
I do disagree, because different fighting techniques do work differently against different opponents.
This is very, very out of context. He did it once, and it pushed Ahsoka off a massive height.
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@ByAsura
I know that Papa Palpatine and Yoda will be High 7-C thanks to the Giants of Living Stone shit, but what about the others?
Luke has that feat of quaking his island on Ahch-To.
As for the second: It really depends on the individual in question. Ahsoka was over-reliant on dual lightsabers by the time she left the Jedi Order. Ventress did not suffer from that weakness, having proven herself to be just as skilled with one yellow ligthsaber by the time of her death at Dooku's hands.
2. It really depends on the individual duelist. Ahsoka became overly reliant on dual lightsabers, becoming a much weaker duelist with just one lightsaber (though her victory against the Nightsister on Corvus shows that she seems to have overcome this weakness years later). Ventress was trained by Dooku himself, who was the second or third best duelist in the Jedi Order and a master lightsaber instructor; he obviously trained her to be proficient in both single and dual wielding lightsabers, and trained her in a completely different style to what Anakin trained Ahsoka in.
If I recall correctly, even Barriss Offee in a Forces of Destiny short criticized Ahsoka's reliance on dual blades.
3. Well, word of god does state that Vader and Palpatine were the only ones in the Empire to be able to trade blows with Rebels Ahsoka. While Vader does indeed appear superior to her, especially in physical might, she doesn't appear to be fodder to him at all. She contended with him for a good bit. True, he did pressure her, but she held her own.
I know that Papa Palpatine and Yoda will be High 7-C thanks to the Giants of Living Stone shit, but what about the others?
Luke has that feat of quaking his island on Ahch-To.
Yeah, Canon comics show Vader mentally fighting against his light side self, with the best example being post ANH while up against Cylo.
As for the second: It really depends on the individual in question. Ahsoka was over-reliant on dual lightsabers by the time she left the Jedi Order. Ventress did not suffer from that weakness, having proven herself to be just as skilled with one yellow ligthsaber by the time of her death at Dooku's hands.
1. Palpatine was indeed taken off guard. You can see that Vader was making that unique pinching gesture to Force Choke, but Palpatine told him off, got out of Vader's hold seemingly easily, and then blasted him with Force Ligthning.
2. It really depends on the individual duelist. Ahsoka became overly reliant on dual lightsabers, becoming a much weaker duelist with just one lightsaber (though her victory against the Nightsister on Corvus shows that she seems to have overcome this weakness years later). Ventress was trained by Dooku himself, who was the second or third best duelist in the Jedi Order and a master lightsaber instructor; he obviously trained her to be proficient in both single and dual wielding lightsabers, and trained her in a completely different style to what Anakin trained Ahsoka in.
If I recall correctly, even Barriss Offee in a Forces of Destiny short criticized Ahsoka's reliance on dual blades.
3. Well, word of god does state that Vader and Palpatine were the only ones in the Empire to be able to trade blows with Rebels Ahsoka. While Vader does indeed appear superior to her, especially in physical might, she doesn't appear to be fodder to him at all. She contended with him for a good bit. True, he did pressure her, but she held her own.
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TFA/TLJ Luke is already Large Town level in my sandbox. I think this is fine, as canon Luke was implied to have already surpassed Vader and become at least threat to Palpatine himself 30 years prior. Lower tiers like early Ahsoka are City Block level, while higher tiers (Post-Clone Wars Obi-Wan, Mustafar Anakin, etc) are at least City Block level+, possibly far higher. Spino and I are planning some Multi-City Block level stuff for Rebels Vader.
The real problem is just how massive the gap between Palpatine and Dooku is. Dooku (currently capable of fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time) may have fought Yoda, but Palpatine also overpowers him from half-way across the galaxy. This leads me to believe that Yoda was simply trying to capture him.
As for dual wielding, it's more that different fighters have different styles. Anakin fighting on par with Obi-Wan, for example, doesn't mean that he'd be on par with Grievous, who commonly uses between 2 and 4 lightsabers, or Windu in a 1 v 1 duel.
Vader seemingly let Palpatine go, but Palpatine himself didn't offer resistance. He was most likely trying to manipulate Vader the whole time, and then one-shots him right after to prove his superiority.
The real problem is just how massive the gap between Palpatine and Dooku is. Dooku (currently capable of fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time) may have fought Yoda, but Palpatine also overpowers him from half-way across the galaxy. This leads me to believe that Yoda was simply trying to capture him.
As for dual wielding, it's more that different fighters have different styles. Anakin fighting on par with Obi-Wan, for example, doesn't mean that he'd be on par with Grievous, who commonly uses between 2 and 4 lightsabers, or Windu in a 1 v 1 duel.
Vader seemingly let Palpatine go, but Palpatine himself didn't offer resistance. He was most likely trying to manipulate Vader the whole time, and then one-shots him right after to prove his superiority.
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Yeah, I think so as well. Makes sense for Yoda to want to take in his former Padawan and see why he fell to the Dark Side (may be even try to redeem him).
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The only significant inconsistency seems to be Dooku vs Yoda, at least in Canon, so I concur.
Off topic, but why is Mando 9-B when his profile literally scales to a 9-A character?
Off topic, but why is Mando 9-B when his profile literally scales to a 9-A character?
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I've been wondering about that as well.
Regardless of whether he ends up 9-B or 9-A though, that's just more in a sea of 9-B to 9-A peak humans in Canon Star Wars.
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for ahsoka, she is stated to be in the top 3 best duelists ever, by some higher up in an interview iirc. so him fighting her while having 1 less weapon, being slower, and being less agile is an amazing feat.
like i said, i will be looking for quotes on: dooku, ahsoka, sheev, and vader. btw, we REALLY need to talk about how vader is portrayed. people will ignore this, but he changes way too much. when he is the villain of a story, and not the protag in it, he is usually uber powerful and almost god like, but when he is the protag, he is portrayed as much more flawed, weaker, slower, etc. we need to find out which of these we will be taken seriously.
like i said, i will be looking for quotes on: dooku, ahsoka, sheev, and vader. btw, we REALLY need to talk about how vader is portrayed. people will ignore this, but he changes way too much. when he is the villain of a story, and not the protag in it, he is usually uber powerful and almost god like, but when he is the protag, he is portrayed as much more flawed, weaker, slower, etc. we need to find out which of these we will be taken seriously.
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The Force choking feat?
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i do think its weird that we consider ways around the yoda/dooku fight, but dont consider any around sheev choking dooku lol it works both ways guys
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Perhaps but we just do not know
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both are current canon, from what my source tells me, and i trust my source. if he is wrong, he doesnt know it lol.
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I'm not a fan of using feats like these to compare characters. Dooku wouldn't fight or resist Sidious and that leads me to believe that he was extremely casual and wouldn't put up any kind of fight. There is an argument in favor of Dooku being very high, it involved Talzin wanting to use Dooku to gain more power than she had lost, and an earlier weaker spirit version of her fought equally with Windu but I don't have the sources nor the structure of the argument to defend Dooku on this matter. Heard the argument on Quora from all places.
Lorenzo, nice to see you here man. Do you know if any other members of SI or the SW scene on CV are here too?
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I also think we should upgrade Canon Force users to 9-A scaling to Rey and Kylo Ren and Legends to 9-B since the 9-B feat we currently use in Canon exists in Legends too. Also wouldn't the IG droid in Mando upscale from weaker 9-A droids too?
Old Ben, Rebels Maul and Rebels Ahsoka would scale to Rebels Vader somewhat right?
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What are they from, though? I'm genuinely interested so I can revise the profiles.
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