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Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Conceptual Manipulation

Elizhaa

Elizhaa

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From chapter 62: "A spirit is… "In nothingness power finds its fill. That is a holy spirit. The great holy spirit is the source of power. Among these, light and darkness, the two great spirits. Who came to exist at the same moment as the world. But, the world was without form, a ephemeral existence. Light and shadow, darkness and the light. Two existences that shall never interweave. One day, the great spirit time was born. The child of light and darkness. And thus the world began to move. The moving world spun, without purpose, around itself. Inside the flowing currents of life and death, Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky―these five great spirits were born. And since then, these were the great eight spirits. Until the light consumes the world, erasing darkness. Until a new spirit is born, erasing all. Life and death, heralding the coming end of the world."

There is a line in Conceptual Manipulation Type 3 that is important for the distinction of Type 2 and 3:

  • These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept.
  • These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.
I never mentioned they were bound at all by their Concept, what killed the Spirits, was the new spirit.

At the very least, The great holy spirit is the source of power could be a Type 2 concept as it exists independently of all before all some might say it transcend reality. I think the others scale as they are not implied to of lower existence and especially the new spirit who killed everything.

Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 could be a thing.

  • 2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.
If one thinks it is Type 3, honestly, I think we should assume the default assumption for concept manipulation is type 2 unless if these conditions are valid: These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept.

I honestly don't see these spirits being affected by what they represent and if I think it required to show that they are affected by their concepts to prove Type 3, objectively speaking. Otherwise, they are Type 2 concepts
 
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It is basically a definition thing, if the feat doesn't follow the definition then one can't claim something is true.

In this case, this is definition is of Type 3 Conceptual manipulation which looks false when compared to Type 2
 
Ramiris knows about the Spirit of Destruction long before it starts existing, so the Spirit itself is probably not just some "coincidence" but was instead created by design, most likely by Veldanava.

But what would the Spirit of Destruction be neccessary for if the world would just collapse by itself anyway? The mythology told by Ramiris doesn't mention that it's for the primary purpose of handling any sort of outside threat or abnormality, so it seems to exist primarily for something that was mentioned in the same text, which means it can only be refering to the Great Spirits. If the Great Spirits need to be specifically destroyed instead of just leaving it to the collapse of the world, that implies that the Great Spirits can survive the collapse of the world, which would mean that they are type 2 concepts.
 
How so, The Causality, as they are not affected by they represented, the requirement for Type 3 Concept, at in the story?

It required evidence to show they were affected for Type 3 rather than Type 2 as otherwise, it is headcanon or based unproven assumptions.
 
According to the Quote, the birth of those spirits gave shape of the world, when the Spirits of Time is born, Time has been created, same for the other spirits like Light, Darkness ect... those Concept shape the reality and will end at the same time as the world end

it's 100% Type 3
 
The Causality said:
According to the Quote, the birth of those spirits gave shape of the world, when the Spirits of Time is born, Time has been created, same for the other spirits like Light, Darkness ect... those Concept shape the reality and will end at the same time as the world end

it's 100% Type 3
Click to expand...
That's not mentioned anywhere. Instead it's even deliberately stated that another spirit gets born that destroys everything, including the Great Spirits (and likely itself as well after all is said and done). If the Great Spirits would just poof from existence after the end of the world, then this "destroyer spirit" would be redundant.
 
Oh. that change nothing about their Conceptual Type tho, the world will end when this spirits will come into Existence, erasing all, Time, Space ect..

Ye it's Type 3.
 
Until a new spirit is born, erasing all. Life and death, heralding the coming end of the world.

It never indicated they were affected by what they represent; by this logic, these five great spirits would be affected when they represent are affected and it never stated at all.
 
The Causality said:
Oh. that change nothing about their Conceptual Type tho, the world will end when this spirits will come into Existence, erasing all, Time, Space ect..

Ye it's Type 3.
Click to expand...
As I said, that'd be redundant since if they were only type 3, then the world collapsing in itself would kill the Great Spirits on its own and there'd be no reason to design the world in a way that would lead it to creating this sort of "all-erasing Spirit" when the world is about to collapse anyway.
 
Elizhaa said:
It never indicated they were affected by what they represent; by this logic, these five great spirits would be affected when they represent are affected and it never stated at all.
Click to expand...
But it's never indicated that they were unaffected by what they represent tho, i just judge with the quote, and it's say that they destruction will end the world, and i don't even know why you said that since it's isn't even the point about the Type of the Concept

As I said, that'd be redundant since if they were only type 3, then the world collapsing in itself would kill the Great Spirits on its own and there'd be no reason to design the world in a way that would lead it to creating this sort of "all-erasing Spirit" when the world is about to collapse anyway

Maybe because it's the fate of the world, the natural ending of his, the Cosmology? i don't even read Tensei's LN but according to the quote, this is the spirits who bring the end of the world by erasing every existent Concepts, and your argument will be better if the world in tensei was as in the reality, since there is no Big Bang = Universal Creation, so not World collapsing in the end since it's the concept which govern in Tensei, you need much more for proving that it's a Type 2

You are free to wait Assalt and Kalt but for me, it's nowhere near to Type 2 just with this quote, if you have other quote, well bring on in this thread.
 
>The Causality, I was going by the Definition of Conceptual Manipulation when you say the Concepts is Type 3, you have to prove they are affected by they represent by 'defintion': otherwise, it is an incorrect point.

i don't even read Tensei's LN but according to the quote, this is the spirits who bring the end of the world by erasing every existent Concepts, and your argument will be better if the world in tensei was as in the reality, since there is no Big Bang = Universal Creation, so not World collapsing in the end since it's the concept which gover in Tensei, you need much more for proving that it's a Type 2

> I a not sure what cosmology has to do with and don't believe we makes special case for cosmology unless they are based mythology like the Greek World being 4-B or High 3-A deepending in interpetations.

A verse universe = universe unless stated otherwise and in this case, the spirit of time just existing have a Tier 2 feat as time is born.

The key criteria are the definitions of Type 3 concept. man. don't meet these criteria:

  • These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept.
  • These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.


 
Elizhaa said:
The Causality, I was going by the Definition of Conceptual Manipulation when you say the Concepts is Type 3, you have to prove they are affected by they represent by defintion; otherwise, it is an incorrect point.
Click to expand...
I want to say that you need to prove that they are unaffected by they represent, because for exemple, when the embodiment of a concept like Time brough the Concept of Time with his birth, then it's Type 3, and it's entierly the point in your quote. you need to prove that they aren't bound by their concepts, shaping all of reality is nowhere a proof a Type 2
 
Maybe because it's the fate of the world, the natural ending of his, the Cosmology?

No it isn't. The world was created by an actual creator who can shape the world based on his will. It's not some "random creation". The only counter-argument seems to be here "well the Destroyer Spirit COULD just be something cosmetic with no particular purpose", but in that case we could stretch that logic to all type 2 concept killing feats as "maybe that concept wasn't actually killed by character X but instead just commited suicide under the guise of being killed! Therefore it's not proof for being type 2!".

I think dismissing something as "possibly just having cosmetic purposes" would probably invalidate a lot of feats on this site.
 
The Causality, I believe the burden of proof falls on you to prove that is Type 3 with proper evidences.

I and NeoSuperior proved both with Conceptual Manipulation Type 3 and logically that the spirits are unaffected by what they represent.
 
RM97 said:
This seems Type 3 Concept imo given by the description in OP.
Click to expand...
How so the spirits are not showned or stated to beaffected by what they represent, the requirement for Type 3? I believe They are closer to Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality.

Do you have proof they are Type 3 Concept and they are affected by the concept they represent, RM97?
 
NeoSuperior said:
No it isn't. The world was created by an actual creator who can shape the world based on his will. It's not some "random creation". The only counter-argument seems to be here "well the Destroyer Spirit COULD just be something cosmetic with no particular purpose", but in that case we could stretch that logic to all type 2 concept killing feats as "maybe that concept wasn't actually killed by character X but instead just commited suicide under the guise of being killed! Therefore it's not proof for being type 2!".
Click to expand...
Well then, your first sentance confirmed the fact that you can't scale the real life cosmic chronology to Tensei, so the end in tensei is not the Universal collapse which will end the concept, in this cosmology, the spirits will destroy all concept is the end.

@Elizaa Your comment show that you aren't understood what i mean, I've already proved that those Concept are basically type 3 just by Using your own Quote, My comment already tell you why this is type 3, you need to proove that it's type 2 with arguments or feat, just gived with the quote, it's purely Type 3 as i already said.
 
I am sorry for the confusion, by bounded- I meant affected, and I fixed it in the OP.
 
The Causaility has yet to counter the points for it. I don't think it a valid reason for agreement
 
Given from whats written In nothingness power finds its fill. That is a holy spirit. The great holy spirit is the source of power. Among these, light and darkness, the two great spirits. Who came to exist at the same moment as the world. Aka it implies that the concepts simultaneously came into being the same time the objects of the concept came into being. Similar to how the concept of Humanity came when Humans first came to existence.

Also burden of proof doesn't work like that. I didn't claim anything but rather giving an opinion going by whats written in the post. If you think that there's more to prove type 2 than whats written in the post, then feel free to post more stuffs.
 
Basically what i already said, they came into existence the same time as their concepts, seems like type 3 to me, the burden of proof is on the other side of this argument to prove otherwise, that they are unbounded by their concepts, which can't be the case if they came into existence the same time as them, to be type 2 from what i have heard would require them to be born before or after their concepts.
 
RM97, concepts simultaneously came into being the same time the objects of the concept came into being, I don't think this is really a counterpoint, this is what happens in roughly all verses so by this logic most Type 2 would Type 3 Concepts.

I think the point about the bounded need to be proven as it must showed they are affected by what the represent, Tensei spirit are not following this criteria: In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.
 
That's actually a counterpoint tho. And no there's a crapton of verses which blatantly show Type 2 concepts being independent and completely transcendental of the reality (Eg: Madoka Magica, Sonic, DnD)

And no. Like CP said Burden of proof falls on you to show that they are unbound by the object because the given quotes is not sufficient to prove type 2 imo.
 
I honestly believe we should make it an honest discussion about the definition rather just disagreed because of assumption.
 
The quote in the OP is type 3. A concept isn't type 2 unless proven otherwise, it's the opposite way around.

For example, nothing states "If the multiverse is nuked Dialga will die", but there is nothing saying that the concept of time in Pokemon is type 2, so it's type 3 until evidence pointing towards type 2 is found
 
I'm not that knowledgeable on concepts or Tensei verse but I too can put 1+1 together and given the quotes in OP and the definitions of the concept manip page, the spirits seem to be a Type 3 concept.
 
@ CP Yes, to being Type 2, you need to being born before the object of your concept, for exemple if Dialga, the embodiment of Time was born before the object of his concept which is time, this would be Type 2, same for the Universal Destruction, if all the object of your concept, for exemple Space (for palkia) is destroyed but Palkia, the embodiment of this Concept is still here, then it's Type 2

EDIT: Ninja'd by his f***ing Kalt owo
 
Well then, your first sentance confirmed the fact that you can't scale the real life cosmic chronology to Tensei, so the end in tensei is not the Universal collapse which will end the concept, in this cosmology, the spirits will destroy all concept is the end.

That's not the case. Look: "Until a new spirit is born, erasing all. Life and death, heralding the coming end of the world." The end of the world is a completely seperate event from the actions of the spirit that erases anything. In the second-to-last chapter Ciel even says that the world "arrived at nothingness" through the law of entropy, which seems to be an inherent characteristic of the world itself, since the Great Spirits are already gone before that. So the Great Spirits are not the cause of the collapse of the world, as the world would collapse regardless.

But again, if the spirits were type 3 then they could have just existed until the eventual collapse of the world which would kill them since all their manifestations within the world would be destroyed. Yet despite that the world was designed to produce a spirit not long before the eventual collapse of the world to kill off all the supposedly "doomed-to-die, anyway" Great Spirits for no good reason? Or is it because the Great Spirits are actually type 2?

And the way the Great Spirits came to be doesn't really matter. Because nowhere does it show any appearent "feedback" on the concepts by the manifestations. On the contrary the idea sentence that "In nothingness power finds its fill" in regards to the first spirit implies that it can exist by itself rather than being dependent on its own manifestations in the world, because "in nothingness" there is nothing that could be a manifestation for it.
 
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