The Embodiment of Control vs. One Determined Kid (Makima vs. Frisk) (2-7-0) (GRACE)

[Anonymous_Learner]

Thought of this match up ever since Frisk became town level and now i'm gonna do it.

Makima vs. Frisk, Speed is un-equalized

Makima
Attack Potency: Varies; 550 Tons of TNT physically, 5.5 Kilotons of TNT with 1,000 Years, >128.18 Kilotons with Telekinesis
Durability: Varies; 550 Tons of TNT
Speed: Varies; >>Mach 81.48, >>>Mach 1,390.67 reactions, >Mach 4,603.11 attack speed with Bang
Lifting Strength: Varies; >2,549.918 Metric Tons
High-Mid Resurrection granted
Makima has her Swords

Frisk (with Immense Determination)
Attack Potency: Varies; >7.29 Kilotons
Durability: Varies; >7.29 Kilotons
Speed: Varies; >Mach 2414.68
Lifting Strength: At Least Superhuman
Frisk has control over the timeline
Frisk has Their Phone, The Locket, and The Real Knife
Frisk is LV 19
Frisk has Yellow mode
Frisk's healing items are: Butterscotch Pie, Instant Noodles, Steak, and Legendary Hero (x5)

Battle takes place in Shibuya of Chainsaw Man's Universe
Makima has prior knowledge that Frisk has killed thousands of magical beings capable of being coming gods and has fought a god (this should prevent them from getting control diffed)
Starting Distance is 75 Meters
Both are in-character
Frisk isn't considered a citizen of Makima's Japan.

Lore: After leaving the underground on a failed Genocide Run, Frisk goes to Japan and has decided to run hands the Control Devil and her minions.

Battle Ost:



The Control Devil: @GunshyFever, @ExcelsisBerny
"The Angel That Emptied The Underground": @Anonymous_Learner, @EnderLord8, @Enter_Bluey @Delusionaltx2, @CastoriceTheFifth, @Detective_Blizzard, @Arkansalter2
You [Yes, You] Solo Both at Once (Inconclusive):

t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶c̶h̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶e̶d̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶a̶r̶d̶l̶e̶s̶s̶

 

[Arkansalter2]

Makima doesn't resist Soul Attacks. Or does she?

 

[Catbowtie]

Frisk isn't considered a citizen of Makima's Japan.

Bro Frisk isn't Japanese

Anyways, Makima gets Stomped here VIA Save and Reset

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Frisk can't really do anything against mind stuff, so they probably just lose after Makima looks at them with the bio stuff

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk can't really do anything against mind stuff

Doesn't that work only when Makima sincerely believes herself to be above the target without any doubt?

 

[Catbowtie]

Makima's Conquest doesn't matter as of now since TS made it so Makima doesn't immediately start with it. Basically, Makima would be skeptical she's immediately above Frisk, so she wouldn't use Conquest

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Doesn't that work only when Makima sincerely believes herself to be above the target without any doubt?

Really all she needs to do is beat them once.
And considering Makima can just look at someone and incap them with her Bio hax, probably wouldn't be hard.

 

[Catbowtie]

Really all she needs to do is beat them once.
And considering Makima can just look at someone and incap them with her Bio hax, probably wouldn't be hard.

Strong emotions can overcome Makima's Conquest.

• (...)Her abilities as the Control Devil are not perfect as an influx of strong emotions have been shown to be able to break free from Makima's control as seen with Angel

Frisk with Immense Determination should be enough imo

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Strong emotions can overcome Makima's Conquest.


Frisk with Immense Determination should be enough imo

They could do that for like a few seconds.

Not to mention Frisk really has no way to actually beat her? Her Regen is too strong, Makima kills Frisk with basically any of her attacks and she has like a few ways to just perma-incap Frisk if she wanted (Halloween)

 

[Catbowtie]

Frisk can paste Makima with Yellow Mode

 

[Catbowtie]

Oh wait it's Mid-High not High-Mid the Reading Comprehension Devil got to me y'all

 

[GunshyFever]

This is a stomp. Makima uses Conquest right off the bat. Considering she sees humans as loyal dogs and Frisk appears to be a child, she would have little hesitation. Even if Frisk breaks free with Determination, Makima would still control their body and could force them into a contract, taking full control of their autonomy without giving them a way to break free, without the promise of instant death via contract standards.

Edit: Nvm, I just reread the OP and saw the control diff prevention clause. You need to be more specific about what Makima knows regarding magical beings, because right now your explanation is counterintuitive. Devils, whom Makima is indifferent to (apart from those with status).

 

[EnderLord8]

Following

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Edit: Nvm, I just reread the OP and saw the control diff prevention clause. You need to be more specific about what Makima knows regarding magical beings, because right now your explanation is counterintuitive. Devils, whom Makima is indifferent to (apart from those with status).

Give me a second. THx

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

morning everyone.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Bro Frisk isn't Japanese

True but I like to note it so people don't discuss Frisk getting Makima contract diffed

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Alright, changes have been made to OP.
Makima has her Regen lowered and has better info as to why she can just Coquest off-rip like usual.
Should make this a better match up

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Makima doesn't resist Soul Attacks. Or does she?

Frisk doesn't have soul attacks. I'd argue they would for yellow mode but they don't have it on their profile so no

 

[GunshyFever]

What can frisk do to get past Makima's contract? Because considering her status, she is definitely getting bio point.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

What can frisk do to get past Makima's contract? Because considering her status, she is definitely getting bio point.

Punch her hard into paste, slice her so fast and hard she turns into a puddle of blood, or use yellow mode to do something similar
Frisk can stay alive and battle despite being on a billionth of their health so, assuming Bio manipulation isn't an insta kill which seems to be the case (I'll discuss the possibility that is in a minute, dw), once frisk's body works fine again, they'll still be able to fight and likely eat a healing item. Also, again, assuming they don't die instantly, they will be invulnerable for a few seconds they're slumped...should they be slump. Makima (currently) has no way of negating invulnerablity
Now then, assuming Bio manip is an insta-kill, their soul will still remain outside of death so either Frisk floating red soul continues the rest of the fight (which sounds hella funny to think about) and likely dies to, idk, 2 hits from the 1k usage weapon since it negates Regen, type 4 immortality, has death manipulation, and non-physical interaction (something Makima would need to harm Frisk's soul and she has a lot of things with this but most aren't strong enough to harm frisk's soul) then resets the fight or just resets the timeline.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Like, I think it's possible but the highest of high diffs for Frisk to win.
Don't get me wrong though, Makima 100% has the edge here.
Makima has confirmed millions of lives, while Frisk can come back infinitely but only as long as they're willing.
A true battle of wills and how long Frisk wants to keep fight. Makima won't remember the timelines but they will and who's to say they're willing to keep going especially when they'll like die a loooooooot before making progress.
Still, gonna vote for Frisk for now, but i'll probably might maybe vote for Control later.

 

[GunshyFever]

Punch her hard into paste, slice her so fast and hard she turns into a puddle of blood, or use yellow mode to do something similar

Is there a specific feat of her doing something like this? It's harder to reduce a human body to nothing but bloody paste, even in a fictional scenario, without leaving behind a fingernail, a strand of hair or even a single piece of skin. If this is what Makima's High-Mid regeneration is capable of handling, we’d need to know exactly how Frisk can accomplish this. And even if per se, you explain it and she eventually bypasses Makima's transferal, would she be able to use it effectively against Makima’s defenses, such as her reaction speed and precognition? Especially considering that Makima would be heavily on guard and using one of her most deadly abilities.

Frisk can stay alive and battle despite being on a billionth of their health so, assuming Bio manipulation isn't an insta kill which seems to be the case (I'll discuss the possibility that is in a minute, dw), once frisk's body works fine again, they'll still be able to fight and likely eat a healing item. Also, again, assuming they don't die instantly, they will be invulnerable for a few seconds they're slumped...should they be slump. Makima (currently) has no way of negating invulnerablity
Now then, assuming Bio manip is an insta-kill, their soul will still remain outside of death so either Frisk floating red soul continues the rest of the fight (which sounds hella funny to think about) and likely dies to, idk, 2 hits from the 1k usage weapon since it negates Regen, type 4 immortality, has death manipulation, and non-physical interaction (something Makima would need to harm Frisk's soul and she has a lot of things with this but most aren't strong enough to harm frisk's soul) then resets the fight or just resets the timeline.

Once Makima kills or defeats them the first time, Conquest takes effect and Frisk belongs to her. There’s no second chance. And yes, bio point is an instant kill for Frisk. If this ability is enough to knock down a Primal Fear, Frisk definitely won’t be able to even remotely stand upright. Even from a standard bio stare, that health bar is dropping past zero and into the negatives.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Is there a specific feat of her doing something like this?

This is the closest they ever came to doing so,

That and Speed not being Equalized means Frisk here is nearly x30 faster too

Still pretty doubtful they'd actually do this though given the circumstances of the scene above (As in they were like completely possessed here + It's personal)

 

[Epiccheev]

Once Makima kills or defeats them the first time, Conquest takes effect and Frisk belongs to her

Would Makima have recollection of Retries like Sans here?
Considering she can remember devils whose concepts have been erased making it so they never existed.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Would Makima have recollection of Retries like Sans here?

sans doesn't, he's just really observant and deduces it going by Frisk's expression.

As for Makima, Ig we do take SAVE/LOADs as like the characters jumping from one timeline to another instead of a time rewind, so maybe?
Although we also have the other sans-es line, so it's a different person each new timeline. Honestly no clue.

 

[GunshyFever]

If I were to take a guess, I’d probably go ahead and say yeah. The premise of remembering something erased from existence or that never existed in the first place, is essentially the same as remembering something from a point in time that was erased. So it's safe to say that if Frisk somehow ends up reloading her save back to the start of the fight, Makima will remember and view her as inferior, considering she already beat her in a fight. I'll actually go ahead and vote for Makima.

 

[EnderLord8]

Okay, how would Makima deal with Frisk's type 8 immortality?

 

[EnderLord8]

bio point is an instant kill for Frisk. If this ability is enough to knock down a Primal Fear, Frisk definitely won’t be able to even remotely stand upright. Even from a standard bio stare, that health bar is dropping past zero and into the negatives.

How high does a Primal Fear scale in survivability?

 

[GunshyFever]

This is the closest they ever came to doing so,

That and Speed not being Equalized means Frisk here is nearly x30 faster too

Still pretty doubtful they'd actually do this though given the circumstances of the scene above (As in they were like completely possessed here + It's personal)

Makima's reaction time helps with the initial attack, and even then, Flowey is just lying there helplessly, something Makima obviously won’t allow. Considering that the biology of a human is much larger than that of a small sunflower, it really highlights how slim Frisk’s chances are of pulling this off.

Okay, how would Makima deal with Frisk's type 8 immortality?

Once Makima defeats Frisk, Conquest takes control of Frisk’s body and erases her memories. Even if Frisk breaks free, Conquest still retains complete autonomy over her body and can force Frisk into a contract for full control, one that she cannot escape or break free from.

How high does a Primal Fear scale in survivability?

Pretty damn high. These devils are unbothered by mutilation, being disassembled or even eaten which never hinders them.

 

[EnderLord8]

Once Makima defeats Frisk, Conquest takes control of Frisk’s body and erases her memories.

It is not able to erase the player's memories though

Even if Frisk breaks free, Conquest still retains complete autonomy over her body and can force Frisk into a contract for full control, one that she cannot escape or break free from.

Wouldn't going back in time kind of undo the contract? Not to mention that the player themselves is able to control Frisk and they can resist the player's influence to some extent if they want to (Although they don't do this most of the time because they are both attuned) How good is her control with the Contract?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Makima's reaction time helps with the initial attack, and even then, Flowey is just lying there helplessly, something Makima obviously won’t allow. Considering that the biology of a human is much larger than that of a small sunflower, it really highlights how slim Frisk’s chances are of pulling this off.

Flowey is actually a pretty huge flower, about the same height as Frisk themself. And we have seen them horizontally cut Undyne in half, so it's not like height is an issue.

And while the reaction speed is useful, Frisk being nearly twice as fast as those reaction feats and almost thirty times faster than Makima herself makes them way less of a factor. That and how Makima can't really fight back effectively while she's regenerating.

Once Makima defeats Frisk, Conquest takes control of Frisk’s body and erases her memories. Even if Frisk breaks free, Conquest still retains complete autonomy over her body and can force Frisk into a contract for full control, one that she cannot escape or break free from.

The Type 8 Immortality actually comes from them being controlled by the Player, so it'd basically become a tug of war between the Player and Makima in that regard.

 

[GunshyFever]

It is not able to erase the player's memories though

Is that how it works? I'm pretty sure we're talking about Frisk and not the player sitting behind the screen.

Wouldn't going back in time kind of undo the contract? Not to mention that the player themselves is able to control Frisk and they can resist the player's influence to some extent if they want to (Although they don't do this most of the time because they are both attuned) How good is her control with the Contract?

The thing is, Frisk cannot go back in time because Makima has control over her mind, body, actions and even her personality. She can also erase Frisk's memories, as I mentioned earlier. Even if hypothetically, Frisk were given a second chance to reset and return to her save point at the beginning of the fight, Makima would still remember. This is because she can recall things that have been erased from existence, and her power of Conquest would remain active as a result. Conquest is a passive ability, as noted in Makima’s profile. There is no second chance.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Is that how it works? I'm pretty sure we're talking about Frisk and not the player sitting behind the screen.

The Player is an actual in-universe entity in UT btw

 

[GunshyFever]

Flowey is actually a pretty huge flower, about the same height as Frisk themself. And we have seen them horizontally cut Undyne in half, so it's not like height is an issue.

And while the reaction speed is useful, Frisk being nearly twice as fast as those reaction feats and almost thirty times faster than Makima herself makes them way less of a factor. That and how Makima can't really fight back effectively while she's regenerating.

Height and mass are still trivial, especially when you're trying to slice up an opponent who isn't made out of the material of a sunflower, like cellulose, water, lipids and some proteins, but instead has actual human biology. That brings physics into the equation. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that it would be far more challenging for Frisk to pull this off against a moving opponent, who can foresee their moves.

While the reaction speed difference is nearly 2x, Makima greatly upscales from that value, putting her reaction speed closer to Frisk’s. With the added advantage of precog, she can counter an onslaught attack despite the disparity in speed. However, even with that in mind, within the given context, it’s unlikely that Frisk would be able to move like that in the first place which is a problem. Especially considering that Makima is fully capable of moving and attacking even while mutilated or missing a vital organ or limb, along with the fact that she will be heavily on guard based on the OP, starting off with bio point, which spawns inside the opponents body with the point of a finger. Makima is more likely to win here, in most scenarios.

The Type 8 Immortality actually comes from them being controlled by the Player, so it'd basically become a tug of war between the Player and Makima in that regard.

I mean, the player can only watch the screen as Makima controls their character, there’s probably nothing they can do except close the game.

 

[GunshyFever]

The Player is an actual in-universe entity in UT btw

I honestly forgot, mb.

 

[Epiccheev]

It's kinda weird. Anything Makima does to Frisk's mind itself doesn't matter that much when he's ultimately a puppet/flesh cage puppeted by a higher being that's pretty much impossible to reach or affect.
Only way mind attack could win is if she could keep Frisk in a coma without killing them or cripples them in a way that makes them permanently incapacitated. Stuff like erasing his memories won't affect player, mind control is not a definite wincon since they could break free. Altering senses like she did to Justice Devil(?) like making humans taste like excrement wouldn't even be able to stop Frisk from consuming items since the player's will wouldn't care about that.

 

[GunshyFever]

It's kinda weird. Anything Makima does to Frisk's mind itself doesn't matter that much when he's ultimately a puppet/flesh cage puppeted by a higher being that's pretty much impossible to reach or affect.
Only way mind attack could win is if she could keep Frisk in a coma without killing them or cripples them in a way that makes them permanently incapacitated. Stuff like erasing his memories won't affect player, mind control is not a definite wincon since they could break free. Altering senses like she did to Justice Devil(?) like making humans taste like excrement wouldn't even be able to stop Frisk from consuming items since the player's will wouldn't care about that.

I disagree to an extent. "Mind control" or "conquest" is just the name of the ability, what Makima is actually doing is taking control of Frisk's body. For example, if the player tries to use the game controls to move, they wouldn't work as usual. Instead, Makima would be moving the character around herself.

This has happened several times in Undertale where the character moves without the player's consent, like with Chara, although I can't recall all the instances off the top of my head. But Essentially the player loses autonomy over their character. They can't control them anymore.

As I mentioned before, it doesn’t really matter if they can break free from the control temporarily, because Makima can just fling them right back under it. She has full control over their body when she considers frisk inferior, she could simply say something like "down" and force them into a contract. It’s something Frisk, or the player, can’t escape from without facing the promise of infinite death, over and over again.

 

[Catbowtie]

If we’re involving The Player in this, if Makima prevents The Player from controlling Frisk, then The Player will either nuke the entire cosmology on a 2-B scale or use RESET to turn back time to an earlier point before Makima’s Conquest.

Yes, I know Makima can remember the RESETs (she probably couldn’t, since Pochita’s EE and The Player going to a different timeline are two completely different things), but then it would lead to The Player constantly resetting the timeline and Makima Conquesting Frisk over and over again. This would just lead to the situation I described earlier where The Player just nukes Makima and calls it a day

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Incon, frisk from what I remember doesn't resist mind hax without like max dt while makima has nothing for dt shinanegans (which works here since incap would automatically trigger smurf type 8 from the player entity)

 

[Catbowtie]

I’m pretty sure this is a Mismatch